Conference misery::feline_v1

     Hi Nancy,


	 David Here...
  
	            Thanks for your swift reply to my first note in this
conference. I am sorry to hear of your problem with Tym (recollections of
our Tim and Cai). We have gone throgh similar problems over the last 5
years with the introduction of a new unknown cat into the family (the
family list did not include 2 cats which we have lost recently.......
Georges brother and a female Tabby called Tippy , no bodies found after
extensive search assumed stolen).
		    The problem I think is that Tym feels threatened in
his new surroundings and is trying to assert his superiority over your
other cats in order to feel more secure . Also male cats tend to be far
more aggresive if un-castrated , has he been ?? is he old enough ??
Apart from the above theories the only solution we have ever found to
work in these circumstances is time , during which Tym should feel more
secure and accept his fellow cat-mates. I realise in the circumstances
the above might not be very helpfull , however after "racking" my brain
and re and re-reading your note all I can think of is time and acceptance.


			Good Luck

				David L.

    Hi Nancy,
    
    Mouth and Portia exhibit the same behavior that your talking about
    - Portia will his at Mouth, Mouth doesn't do a thing, Portia turns
    her back, Mouth pounces.  We haven't had any blood yet.
    
    My situation is different in that Mouth stays outside most of the
    time - he only comes inside to eat.  My solution has been to keep
    the 2 separated.  When Mouth comes in to eat, Portia either goes
    outside or gets locked in the bedroom.
    
    Mouth has yet to be neutered - hopefully he will be next week since
    he finally seems to trust me.  I'm hoping that his operation will
    take out some of his agression.
    
    	-Nancy

    Nancy, sounds like chaos at your house right now.
    
    The only thing I can tell you is what has worked for me.  I really
    try to stay out of the cat fights unless someone is really getting
    hurt (like in your case), since the cats have to work out the new
    pecking order on their own.  I have even found that my intervention
    often makes the problem worse, since the ones that get scolded are
    resentful, and take out their resentment on the other cats.  
    
    What has worked best for me in cases like yours, is to remove the
    offender from the room, put him in a bathroom or cage, and let him
    chill out for awhile.  During the chill out phase, I don't pay
    attention to the offender.
    
    Another method that has worked is to put the offender in a tokyo
    cage in the main living area so that he can get used to the other
    cat's smells, but not be able to attack or be attacked by anyone.
        
    As a last resort, you may find that keeping him separated in a bedroom
    for the duration of his stay may be the best thing for the whole
    household.
    
    Be sure to not try to separate two cats that are deeply involved
    in a fight with your bare hands.  Spray them with water to separate
    them, and be very careful about trying to pick up either.  I have
    seen good friends become very ill after receiving severe cat bites
    from trying to break up a fight.  In the heat of the battle, they
    may not recognize that it is you trying to pick them up.
    
    Good Luck
    
    Jo

    Great suggestions, Jo.
    
    I also like the idea of the tokyo cage, that's how I introduce new
    cats into the cattery.  They go in a "kitty Condo" for a couple
    of days, and then come out supervised for a few days after that
    until I think everything is going to be alright.  
    
    Usually when they are in the cage, I put in a kitty bed that has
    been used by the other cats.  This way when the new kid comes out
    he already smells like everyone else.  And everyone else smells
    like him....at least a little!
    
    cin
    

I also agree with the idea of a cage, we think that was what we did
accidently that turned the tide with our confirmed-other-cat-hater
Spats.  We have had him for two and a half years and had to keep him
physically separated from our other cats to avoid bloodshed; I mean
real bloodshed, like ears bitten clean through!

The cats have a lovely enclosed area of their own (thanks to Cin Gerry
for the suggestion of hardware cloth), and we started putting Spats down
there with them on HIS side of the wire.  After a month of this, he
astounded me by calmly walking into the middle of everybody when I
opened the door to go in and feed them!  Even better, they equally
ignored him!!  After all these years of thinking they'd just never get
along, I had all 9 in one space walking around like one big happy
family.

Being able to smell and see each other while being unable to REACH each
other seems to have finally gotten the idea across that they all live
there and Mom obviously isn't going to get rid of anybody!  Hooray!!
They aren't exactly playing together, but it has been four days and
they all seem calm and there's no sign of fighting.  I declare it a
long-awaited success.

Jan   who_now_has_a_peaceful_kingdom

    I use the cat bed trick sometimes, but often find that my cats (little
    buggers that they are) try to make the cat bed smell like *them*
    by peeing in it right away!  Does work sometimes though.
    
    Glad to see that others have had success with these methods.  I
    also try to bathe the newcomer right away so that he smells like
    the rest of the guys, (I use the same shampoo on all of them).
    
    Can't think of anything else that you could try.  Except maybe writing
    to Carole Wilbourn.  She is an animal behaviorist and writes a column
    for Cat Fancy Magazine.
    
    Jo

    Thanks for the suggestions.  To answer your question David, Yes
    he is neutered and he is 2 years old.  I even checked him closely
    myself because I was concerned about the agressive behavior.
      I'm thinking about the cage idea.  Something like that has 
    occurred to me.  Tym does come downstairs in the evening when
    we are watching TV.  He'll "cruise" around checking things out.
    Generally by this time Mao is on top of the fridge, Isis on the
    cat tree (in the livingroom) and Bumpy on the couch with me. Tym
    will cruise around and generally ignore everyone.  All will be fine
    as long as they all stay in their "safe zones".   During sleep
    time I may only hear one or two "lightning fast" cat fights.
      I'm actually thinking of putting two of them in cat carriers,
    facing each other and put the carriers about 12 inches apart.
    That way they are forced to be close together, but can't rip
    each other apart.
      Nancy

    Well, this worked for a friend of mine...
    
    Her cats were fighting and not getting along and she couldn't take
    it anymore.  So, in desparation, she grabbed both of them and put
    them in a wicker close hamper, slammed the lid, put a book on top
    so they couldn't get out and left the room.  A half hour later she
    came back to find them sleeping together at the bottom of the hamper.
    She figured she would have cat shreads.  It settled all arguments
    between them.
    
    Not sure I'd be brave enough to try it though.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Linda

    re: -1  Interesting idea.  I'm not sure I'm brave enough to try
    that either.  
      Last night I discovered that Isis has ripped another claw off.
    This one is the outside claw on her front left paw.  What do
    you know, a self-declawing cat!
      Nancy 

    
    
    	re: .9
    
    	We have a self declawing cat too...actually kitten...
    	he's just about 3 months old...... I was worried at
    	first but then read a couple replies in here about
    	other's having that happen....and a friend of my
    	dad's (who has lots of kitties) said that he's had
    	a couple kittens that did that too...kind of like
    	baby teeth falling out....it actually appears that
    	Duke's are growing back!!
    
    	JJ
    

    Oh they do grow back.  And in Isis's case you'd never know anything
    ever happened to them.  It sure looks painful tho.  The last time
    she lost one it was from fighting with one of the neighborhood
    Toms through the kitchen screen.  
      My only concern is infection.  especially since they contact
    something as septic as the catbox.
      But just try and bandage it up!
      
      I'm glad to hear its not that uncommon.
        Nancy DC
    

    Nancy, you may want to have the vet put her on antibiotics to help
    prevent infection.  Joui is also a self declawer, and it is always
    the same toe, outside toe, left front paw.  Once, she had to have
    part of the nail surgically removed (she didn't do a complete job
    on it that time).  You are correct to be concerned about infection.
    
    Jo

    
    
    	Thanks...but what about ALL the claws on BOTH front
    	paws??  That's Dukes' situation...
    
    	I don't think he'd go for bandages on both feet...
    

    Well, isis has done this twice to two different nails...two different
    feet!  Its no wonder she's so cranky!  I may give the vet a call
    and see if he wants her on medication.  I've GOT to get a more
    convenient vet!  its a shame this guy's soooooo good!  I don't want
    to use anyone else.
      Nancy DC

    Convenience has never been a factor with any of my vet's.  All the
    good ones are far away.  The best is in Fremont, about 45-60 minutes
    from home, and that is with no traffic.  Could be reason enough
    to move, since the local vets aren't that great.
    
    You can try soaking (ya right!) her paw in epsom salts to help with
    the healing.  This helps with Joui's self declawing, but I also
    put her on antibiotics since she almost never makes a clean "break"
    of it.
    
    Jo

    Who do you go to in Fremont, Jo?  There's a wizard surgical
    specialist over there who saved Sweetie from the results of a car
    accident that happened before I adopted him.  I think his
    name is Gary Brown.
    

    I've had that happen to one or two kids - mostly they won't 'let'
    me touch the nail or let me do anything - it's alway healed up
    on its own.  
    
    E.T.

    Karen,  I use Dr. Deborah Rue at the Irvington Pet Hospital.  Her
    husband is a vet too, but in a different office in Fremont or Milpitas.
    I like her best though.  She saved Livee's life after the vet in
    Morgan Hill gave up and told me to put her to sleep.  Dr. Rue never
    thought that that was an option, and I liked her fighting spirit.
    She has been a wealth of information for me, and helped me through
    a very difficult time when I lost a four month old kitten to
    Hydracephaly.
    
    The fact that she has a Birman has absolutely nothing to do with
    why I like her so much :^).
    
    Jo

    update:
      Well, Isis has done this before so I know what it should look
    like.  Its clean and as long as her nails are retracted, its
    protected. I did call the vet and had him call in a prescription
    to the local Thayer Pharmacy for Amoxyl.  He trusts my judgement
    and I'm just concerned that it doesn't get infected.
    
      Dare I say this?????  Things seem to be improving. (Now watch,
    I'll go home to a war zone just cause I opened my mouth)
    Wednesday night I ran around and put L'air du Temps on everybody.
    Then at bedtime, I put Tymothee in his room and physically dragged
    Mao and Isis upstairs.  They used to ALWAYS sleep with us and 
    stopped with the arrival of the fostercats.  Well, Mao spent the
    whole night purring non-stop between Jack and myself.  Isis also
    spent sometime on the bed, and so did Dundee.  Toward morning I
    could hear Tymothee meowing to be let out.
      Yesterday when I went home, I noticed a definite reduction in
    the tension level.  Couldn't tell you exactly what was different.
    Certainly less hissing and growling.  They all just seemed
    happier.  Tym and Dundee spent some time playing.  I never noticed
    how much time Tymothee spends "cruisin"!  He hardly ever seems to
    sleep!
      Last night I did the perfume routine again and this time we left
    Tymothee out.  I didn't hear one hiss all night long!!  
      Things have also gotten to the point where I can either discipline
    two cats or praise two cats over the results of an "interaction".
    Tym now growls back!  He seems more open about his confrontations
    which would indicate to me that he's feeling more secure. 
      Last night we brought Mao and Isis upstairs again and Isis spent
    about 20 minutes laying between the two of us growling non-stop!
    At one point I looked to my left to see Tymothee, front paws on
    the side railings just looking at Isis in a rather puzzled manner.
    He jumped down and went about his nightly cruise.
      So I have my fingers crossed....In the meantime, we've purchased
    one "guardian gate" and need to find another one. (zayre's only
    had one)
      thanks for all the advice and support.  Hopefully I won't need
    to ask for any more.,
      Nancy DC
    

    Nancy-
    
    I'm glad things are getting better!  All they need is some time....
    Just out of curiosity, who do you use as a vet?
    
    Michele

    re: .20  Dr Ira Zaslow in Dorchester.  i started using him when
    I lived in Dorchester and continue when we moved to Quincy - one
    town over.  Braintree is only two towns over.  The problem is
    that to get to Dorchester I have to go up the expressway which is
    a major PITA during rush hour.
      

    I was right - it was just another lull in the conflicts. sigh....
    I've had it.  I am at a total loss as to what to do with this
    situation.  My own cats are miserable.  Isis growls and hisses
    at us now.  I've seen her attack Bumpytail.  Mao lives on top
    of the fridge (we even put her kittybed up there) and someone
    has diahreah now.  
      Tym seems to refuse to learn his lesson.  Last night we brought
    Mao upstairs to bed with us.  She was laying on top of the head
    board.  I looked over and Tym was sitting on the siderail looking
    up at her.  Before I could move he jumped up onto the headboard
    and chased Mao off and downstairs where he apparently caught
    her because we heard sounds of catfight.  Mao had done absolutely
    NOTHING to provoke the attack.  
      We are just leaving Tym locked up in the back bedroom now.
    
    If anyone is willing to give him a foster home or permanent home
    let me know.  Otherwise I'm going to have no choice but to try
    and find a no kill shelter that will take him.  I can't have my
    own cat's health ruined no matter how much I like Tym.
      Thanks
        Nancy DC
    

    
    	I think what Nancy is trying to say here is that Tym is a
	wonderful cat. 	He has been subjected to quite a bit of trauma 
	lately, as those of you following Nancy's entries would realize. 
	
	Although his behavior, in itself, seems untrustworthy, I'm sure he's
	just acting out his confusion over the recent upheavals in his life. 
	Given time, and the right home (preferably by himself), he would prove
	to be a gorgeous and well-mannered gentleman. Is there anyone out
	there who can give this unfortunate guy another chance?
 
    
    	Sherry
    

    Sherry -
      Thanks very very much for your reply!  You are absolutely right!
    I'm probably sounding very frustrated right now because I'm torn
    between this wonderful loving cat and my own furry foursome.  Its
    tough seeing everyone suffering from the stress.  
    
      Tym really is a great cat - I can't emphasize that enough.  I
    think alot of his trouble is jealousy.  If anyone is willing to
    give this guy a chance - he comes with "satisfaction guaranteed".
    If he doesn't work out, bring him back.  
      Nancy DC

    Nancy,
    
    I know what you're going through - we had the same trouble between
    Calico (the visitor) and Isis (the resident).  What really hurt
    was when Isis turned on us and gave signs of packing her bags.
    
    We were fortunate enough to find a home for Calico ( on the same
    basis as you're suggesting of try it and see how you get on).  Once
    away from the other cats she was sweetness itself, she just preferred
    sharing her home with humans rather than cats.
    
    I know that it gets really wearing to have your home a battlefield
    when you're trying to do your best for the new cat but don't want
    your own getting upset.  Hang in there and I hope you find Tym a
    home soon with people who love him.  When you do - its one of the
    best feelings in the world.
    
        
    Kate
    

    Thanks Kate.  I'm trying to keep a positive thought.  Mr Tymothee
    was very good for most of the weekend.  He even went out on the
    leash a few times.  Five cats on three runs...now there's a handfull.
    Anyway, things were going pretty good until Mao came down off the
    fridge and didn't realize Tym was right there.  He really went after
    her!  Needless to say he got locked up.  I try to tell Mao to stand
    up to him, but you know cats....
      It is SO frustrating because Tym is a really great cat and the
    longer we have him, the more of his personality emerges.  ARGH!!
      A friend of mine is working on a co-worker who is currently
    catless.  He's telling her all the advantages of taking a full
    grown cat over a kitten.  I have my fingers crossed.  I swear I'll
    have a party if we place this cat!
      Nancy DCX
    

    And that ARGH was over the frustration, not Tym's personality -
    He's got a great purrrrrr-sonality.