Conference back40::soapbox

Wasn't there some amendment that took 100+ years to get ratified?

    any longer and it would have been petrified, eh?

    One of the original 12 amendments didn't get ratified until late in the
    20th century.  I forget which one, but it's been covered elsewhere in
    this conference.

    Amendment XXVII
    
    No law, varying the compensation for services of the Senators and
    Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of
    Representatives shall have intervened.
    
    								-mr. bill

    So 200 years is OK?  Or did we restart the ratification with a time
    limit? 
    
    But, clearly Will has erred.  He'll collect stick for it.
    
    FJP

Putting a time limit on an amendment is fairly recent.

    Oh, an innovation is it?
    
    Conservatives are against it, then?

    Oh I just re-read Will, and the 27th is in there as "with one
    exception" qualifier.
    
    Sorry George.

    My understanding is that the Federal Income tax was incorporated into
    an amendment that has never been ratified. And the original concept
    was that the income tax was "voluntary". Anyone have a thourough
    understanding of this?
    
    Inquiring minds!
    
    Mark

  Your understanding is plain wrong.  Amendment XVI "The Congress shall
 have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source
 derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without
 regard to any census or enumeration." was poroposed by Congress 7/12/1909
 and ratified by 3/4 of the states, becoming the supreme law of the land
 on 2/25/1913.

  bb

    Actually, the ratification has been in question... some claim that they
    were a state short for a 3/4 majority.

    .11
    
    perhaps they used the wrong tally sheet?

    http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html
    
    Proposal and Ratification 
    
    The sixteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States was
    proposed to the legislatures of the several States by the Sixty-first
    Congress on the 12th of July, 1909, and was declared, in a proclamation
    of the Secretary of State, dated the 25th of February, 1913, to have
    been ratified by 36 of the 48 States. The dates of ratification were:
    Alabama, August 10, 1909; Kentucky, February 8, 1910; South Carolina,
    February 19, 1910; Illinois, March 1, 1910; Mississippi, March 7, 1910;
    Oklahoma, March 10, 1910; Maryland, April 8, 1910; Georgia, August 3,
    1910; Texas, August 16, 1910; Ohio, January 19, 1911; Idaho, January
    20, 1911; Oregon, January 23, 1911; Washington, January 26, 1911;
    Montana, January 30, 1911; Indiana, January 30, 1911; California,
    January 31, 1911; Nevada, January 31, 1911; South Dakota, February 3,
    1911; Nebraska, February 9, 1911; North Carolina, February 11, 1911;
    Colorado, February 15, 1911; North Dakota, February 17, 1911; Kansas,
    February 18, 1911; Michigan, February 23, 1911; Iowa, February 24,
    1911; Missouri, March 16, 1911; Maine, March 31, 1911; Tennessee, April
    7, 1911; Arkansas, April 22, 1911 (after having rejected it earlier);
    Wisconsin, May 26, 1911; New York, July 12, 1911; Arizona, April 6,
    1912; Minnesota, June 11, 1912; Louisiana, June 28, 1912; West
    Virginia, January 31, 1913; New Mexico, February 3, 1913. 
    
    Ratification was completed on February 3, 1913. 
    
    The amendment was subsequently ratified by Massachusetts, March 4,
    1913; New Hampshire, March 7, 1913 (after having rejected it on March
    2, 1911). 
    
    The amendment was rejected (and not subsequently ratified) by
    Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Utah. 

    The tax myth comes in a claim that Ohio was not really a state and thus the 
    ratification was not valid.  You see, some piece of paperwork or
    Congressional resolution or something for Ohio's admission was
    overlooked.  It was found and completed in the 1950's retroactive
    to the original date.
    
    I only know this because I was reading it in Cecil Adam's "The Straight 
    Dope" on AOL last night.  His view was that if you would like to
    challenge the validity of the income tax and let the IRS ruin your
    life based on this piece of historical trivia, then go ahead. 

    But with no time limit, we could through Ohio out, and still have
    enough states with the ones that ratified it shortly after it was
    "certified" as having been ratified.
    

    .14
    
    No, that wasn't it.  That's the first I heard about the Ohio papers.
    
    Sorry, I forget the basis of why it has been questioned, and quite
    frankly, it doesn't matter.  See what happens to you if you don't pay
    federal taxes...  
    
    America, home of the free (well, as long as you hand over 60% of your
    salary in taxes), and home of the brave (who cowtow to federal
    intrusion in every aspect of their lives, and keep voting for more of
    the same).  Sigh. 

>           <<< Note 843.16 by ACISS2::LEECH "Terminal Philosophy" >>>

	You give 60% in taxes??

60% doesn't seem so much when you consider how many ways you are taxed
every day ....

    I agree. We pay about 60% taxes. Figure it out for yourself. Add up
    the following:
    
    	Federal income tax
    	Federal income tax on capital gains (28%) 
    	Federal income tax on inheritances.
        Federal income tax on earned income (interest on bank accounts)
    	Federal income tax on educational reimbursements
    	Federal gas tax
    	Federal *surcharges* on electricity, natural gas, home heating oil,
    	phone bills, and cable tv. (coming soon to a PC near you, Federal
    	tax on internet bills). Call 'em surcharges if you like. They're
        taxes.
    	Federal tax on alcoholic beverages.
    	Federal tax on cigarettes, and other tobacco products.
        Federal luxary tax (on luxary cars, boats, etc)
    
    	Bear in mind that most of the taxes listed above are not
        deductable. You pay these out of your' "after-tax" net income.
    
    
    	State income tax
    	State capital gains taxes
    	State income tax on earned income
    	State inheritance tax
    	State sales tax
    	State gas tax
    	
        Notice I didn't include FICA, Medicare/medicaid, property taxes,
    	excise taxes, tolls, and licensing fees, as well as the cost of
        mandatory car insurance. 
    
    	Remember one very important thing. Businesses pay taxes to both
    	State and Federal. Businesses pass this along to their customers.
        Every time you buy a product or service from a business you are 
        contributing to their tax payment. This includes all taxes they
        pay including taxes on energy, sales taxes, income taxes, etc.
     
        Also bear in mind that every time you purchase an imported item,
    	you are paying the import tarriff or "duty" on that item.
    	The importers pass this cost onto their customers. 
    
    	I would argue that the amount of taxes the average citizen pays
        is greater than 60%, perhaps as high as 75%. Eventually, all
        money finds it's way back to the government in one form or another.
    
    	Mark

>                     <<< Note 843.19 by MILKWY::JACQUES >>>

>    	Federal income tax on capital gains (28%) 
>    	Federal income tax on inheritances.
>       Federal income tax on earned income (interest on bank accounts)

	Leech was talking about 60% of salary.  You consider these (for
	instance) to be salary-related?

    60% or more of what I make (salary) is divied up to local, state and
    federal governments.  It's all taken out of my salary in one way or
    another, just because it isn't itemized on my pay-stub every week, does
    not mean that it does not exist and does not affect my disposable
    income (of course, 'disposable income' is rather oxymoronic to me these
    days).
    
    -steve

What's taken out of your salary but not itemized on your pay stub?

Sales taxes paid when making purchases.

Property tax.

Additional Federal Income or State income tax due.

Sales tax and property tax aren't taken out of your salary.

>Sales tax and property tax aren't taken out of your salary.

    Oh really?  How do you pay them?  From your inheritance?  Lottery
    winnings?  Just about everything I buy ultimately comes out of my
    salary.  The fact that it isn't automatically withheld doesn't negate
    the source.

    -- Dave

By that argument, lunch gets taken out of your salary.

>By that argument, lunch gets taken out of your salary.

    Of course it does.  What did you think, that I stole it?  A certain
    percentage of my salary goes towards food.  A certain percentage of my
    salary goes towards taxes.  If I recall correctly, the original
    argument was that about 60% of a person's (Mark's?) salary goes towards
    taxes.

    Of course buying lunch is voluntary so "taken" may not apply.  Paying
    taxes isn't as voluntary.

    -- Dave

Paying some taxes _is_ voluntary.  For instance, if you don't buy a car, you
won't pay the various taxes involved in car ownership.  If you don't buy
property, you won't pay property tax (except insofar as your landlord charges
part of your rent for taxes).  If you're homeless in NH, you'll probably pay
no taxes at all.

    RE: .28

    I guess that's why I put the little word "as" in .27.

    -- Dave

Re: Ratification:

I'm still deeply suspicious of W. Va's statehood.

    
    Uh-oh.
    

    Ya, 'n I don't think mucha Texas or California, either.