Conference back40::soapbox

    wouldn't be natural to discuss it :-)

    
    Let it all hang out.
    

    re: .2
    
    Take it to the music note.
    
    Bob

Bare your souls

ZZ    from what I know of you, I would be most assuradly uptight about
ZZ    this setup.  In some friends home, I wouldn't blink, let alone blush at
ZZ    the same setup.
    
    DougO:
    
    The point has been made and accepted that if one is already assimilated
    into that culture, nudism is of very little consequence...even to
    teenagers with crazy hormones.  I am now talking about AMERICA...the
    average citizen who covets their privacy in such matters.
    
    Meg, focusing strictly on the point of American prepriety in society,
    then one can assume, as you already stated, that co-ed locker rooms
    would not be appropriate for your daughter or anybody else.  We have
    been conditioned to react this way...be it good or bad this is fact.
    
    Now, let's progress to the gays in the military issue.  Having laid the
    groundwork for the discussion...why should YOU as a citizen insiste a
    heterosexual male share a shower room with one who is
    predisposed to attraction of the same sex.  What is it that gives you
    the right to say no to my invitation to shower in my home without a
    door on the bathroom; and yet you insist that a het and a gay man
    share the same shower.  Is the labedo different???  Talk to me chief!!
    
    -Jack

    
    	Jack, has anyone ever told you you're "out there"?
    
    	Please let me know when you get back to this planet.
    

    
      Actually, considering what he cloaks himself with for a policy,
     this was maybe better off in the Sliq note.
    
      bb

    
      To reply to DougO's question as to what I meant by my comment,
     I was questioning the assumptions behind naturism, that there is
     an advantage of some kind to those who regularly plan nude occasions.
     After all, DougO, if you WEREN'T claiming some such advantage, which
     I don't, er, see, then I guess I still don't understand what you
     WERE saying - is that answer (a) ?  If you're going to ask multiple
     choice questions, at least please letter the answers.
    
      I recall a long time ago there was a comedian on the college laugh-in
     circuit whose shtick was to dress in a monk's habit and deliver a
     pseudo-religious sermon that increased to a hilarious peroration.
     I seem to recall him styling himself "Brother Anthony".  In the end,
     he claimed all our human problems were due to our "denying our true
     mammalian nature" by standing upright, and that to see things in
     their true perspective, "You must get down on all fours !"  To the
     utter glee of the audience, including me, he and others ended by
     crawling about on hands and knees, bawling out about "returning to
     nature" by abandoning bipedalism.
    
      This spoof is relevant here because it is a more extreme example
     of what is wrong with "naturism", and indeed, all returning to
     nature.  You really can't, and it wouldn't do you any good if you
     could.  We are separated from nature by our ability, shared by no
     animal, to pass along culture between generations other than through
     our genes.  Yes, we are animals beneath, but with something added,
     which is there for a purpose.
    
      I don't put on my clothes in the morning out of fear or shame,
     thank you, but out of good sense, sense accumulated over many
     generations, sense I'm better off NOT shedding, thank you.  If I
     could make myself merely animal, and did, I'd soon regret it.
    
      Besides, where would I put my pocket protector ?
    
      bb

    ZZZ        Jack, has anyone ever told you you're "out there"?
    
    Shawn...beautiful comback.  If there is one thing I appreciate it is a 
    reply based on substance.
    
    Ya see, this is a typical diatribe from somebody who really doesn't
    have an answer; therefore defaulting to some sort of condecending
    remark or no flies on me insult.  
    
    So go ahead Shawn, go ahead and tell me why you have a right to ask
    this of the military.  Apparently it is a real issue since the Joint
    Chiefs of Staff, who by the way are a hell of a lot more astute on
    military matters than you are, see it this way.  Apparently the Sam
    Nunns of the world, a democrat no less, see this as a plausible
    concern.  And yet you have the balls to sit there and tell me I'm not
    of this planet.  Go ahead...insight us with your worlds of wisdom oh
    Swami!
    
    -Jack

    bb,
    
    It seems you prefer not to know your place in the food-chain.  Humans
    are nature, as much as a wolf, deer, rabbit, carrot, grain of wheat,
    and the earth you walk on.  You are merely an animal who was given the
    ability to affect your environment.  
    
    Is their a benefit to naturism?  IMO yes.  It lets me reconnect to the
    part of me that too often gets shunted aside in the daily
    hunter-gatherer grind I deal with.  It brings me to her creation and
    reminds me that I too am a part of her work of art.  FWIW I also get
    this same experience hunting, fishing or backpacking but that is another 
    topic.  It also lets me shuck the nonsense of a very sick IMO society
    where bodies have to be covered lest someone think one is asking for
    sex.  
    
    meg

    
    	Jack, I hope you aren't trying to say that it's an important
    	and relevant issue because the government is having a hard
    	time deciding on it.  These things can be decided on in days
    	if they really want to, especially if they decide to forego
    	the 2500-page "implementation plans" and/or "handbooks" that
    	they seem to have to create every time they make a decision.
    
    	A man goes into the military, knowing full well that he could
    	be signing up to share a foxhole out in Iran with peers of all
    	races and preferences, and he's supposed to be worried about
    	one of these fellow [fella?] soldiers seeing him naked?  This
    	is what I have a problem with.  There are many other things
    	that are worth worrying about than this.
    
    	And if I visit you and you offer me a shower with no door, I
    	don't have to take one if I don't want.  So I have a right to
    	refuse, or decline.
    

ZZ    It also lets me shuck the nonsense of a very sick IMO society
ZZ    where bodies have to be covered lest someone think one is asking
ZZ    for sex.  
    
    Inconsistency alert.  Meg, you just stated you were only comfortable
    nuding in specific environments.  Therefore the sickness of society has
    effected you to a point where you would compromise your beliefs.
    
    But perhaps I'm missing something here so let me pose yet another
    question...stupid though it might be.  Assume you are at a nudist camp
    and you see what appears as another nudist walking a clothed man
    around...as if he was giving him a tour.  The two men approach you and
    the nude man says to the dressed man, I'd like you to meet one of our
    most respected members...Meg Evans.  The dressed man says...MEG
    EVANS....MEG.....IT'S ME....JACK MARTIN!!!!!!  HOW ARE YOU!!!!!
    
    Your honest response would be:
    
    A. Ohhh...Jack Martin, (Immediately grab a towel to put over you)
    B. Hi Jack you loser, I hope you enjoy it here! (Doesn't phase you)
    C. Get this low life jerk out of my face (Grab towel and put over you)
    D. Get this maggot away from me...jerk! (Doesn't phase you)
    
    -Jack

    .5
    
    > The point has been made and accepted that if one is already assimilated
    > into that culture, nudism is of very little consequence...
    
    Actually, the discussion that sparked this string wasn't about nudism
    at all - it was about nudity in relation to morals and other hoopla. 
    
    Nudity is not nudism, Jack.  I'm not a nudist, never was, don't expect
    ever to be.  But I'm not hung up on dirt, either.  If I see a woman
    unclothed or partially so (as for breastfeeding), I don't go gaga.  My
    son doesn't, either.  Not everybody who habitually wears clothes is
    afraid of the lack thereof.  You apparently fear that the world is
    going to end if your kid sees a naked person of the opposite sex - I
    submit that it might be well for you to start now to teach your
    children that nudity is nothing to be ashamed of.

    And I do that Dick but I also teach my children a sense of propriety. 
    Strictly in the context of gym class in high school, I would assume you
    agree with me that the genders should have different locker rooms,
    right?

    Jack,
    
    Try a and d.
    
    

    You mean A and C right?  D would show you don't have a sense of
    propriety but A does.  They are opposites.
    
    But if you think I'm a maggot, you can put that in C!
    
    -Jack

    .14
    
    > a sense of propriety
    
    I have a sense of propriety.  It tells me that I should make an effort
    not to offend others and that I should make an equal or greater effort
    not to be offended by others.  If I catch a flash of ###### under some
    circumstances other than those in which sex would be appropriate, I'll
    respond to the sight appropriately, rather than allowing myself to get
    shocked or offended.  If the appropriate response is not to notice the
    sight, I will not notice it.  (Yes, you idjit, I will have noticed it,
    but no one else will know that I did.)  And I will never have to worry
    about discovering that there's a frog in my pocket; I will think about
    something else.  I was taught as a child that this is the way I should
    behave.  Weren't you?
    
    > genders should have different locker rooms
    
    It is proven that the ability to learn is to some extent inversely
    proportional to age.  Why not, then, teach children when they are young
    and impressionable that the other gender is not merely an object for
    lust?

| <<< Note 559.11 by BUSY::SLABOUNTY "A swift kick in the butt - $1" >>>


| and he's supposed to be worried about one of these fellow [fella?] soldiers 

	DOH!  You're from NE, it should be fellahhhh..... but never feelya....

    Jack, you're killing me with that story. ;-)

	There was this guy in our building who pretty much lived here. His car
was in the parking lot, and it had 4 flat tires. He slept in it. The guy was
pretty bright, so that's why they let him do it. But I guess late at night he
would come in, take a shower, and walk naked over to his office, which was near
the showers. Don't know how long it went before he got caught, but once he did,
he was fired. I can't be sure, but it may have been a case of penis envy. :-)



Glen

    Thanks, Gwen.  I'm always the last to know.  

	Who's that masked noter????? 

    Someone who bought a gift to send you.  And it's still
    sitting around my house, unmailed, don't ya know.
    

    
    A few years ago, I interviewed with Cabletron in some lost portion
    of N.H... totally forget where it was. On the road which led to
    their plant, which was pretty rural, there was a nudist (naturist,
    whatever) colony. The thing that struck me funny about it though
    was that they had a huge sign out front, including a schedule
    of family activities... I imagined the place to be sort of a
    naked Disneyland... get naked with Goofy! Hurrah!
    
    -b

  jojo, whatever you do, don't let it end up in mz_deb's freezer.

    {look of consternation!}
    

    
    Hey, I was just the middle man.  If Glen doesn't pick it up, I'll
    be having squash for dinner soon 8^).

    
>    A few years ago, I interviewed with Cabletron in some lost portion
>    of N.H... totally forget where it was. On the road which led to
>    their plant, which was pretty rural, there was a nudist (naturist,
>    whatever) colony. The thing that struck me funny about it though
>    was that they had a huge sign out front, including a schedule
>    of family activities... I imagined the place to be sort of a
>    naked Disneyland... get naked with Goofy! Hurrah!
    
 

 That would be Cedar Waters (?) in Nottingham NH.   A nice family place, which
 has been featured on various TV programs.  Quite popular with the family
 naturist crowd.



 Jim

    Mz Deb,
    
    Do you need some recipes?
    
    meg

    
    Oh, yeah!  Something spicy, please, and just enough for one person 8^).
    
    Hey, it's got to get out of my freezer in SOME way 8^).

    Bill, that hardly looks like an answer to my question (see 18.1614 if
    you want the question again), but as it happens, at least it was
    interesting and so you're forgiven.  I haven't advanced any particular
    claims for naturism, not being a practitioner, but I do think I've
    given such claims a more accurate hearing than have you.  And they
    don't remotely appear to include the virtues of abandoning bipedalism,
    which is nonetheless an amusing extremist example for you to have
    offered because it contains a germ of truth.
    
    > I don't put on my clothes in the morning out of fear or shame,
    > thank you, but out of good sense, sense accumulated over many
    > generations, sense I'm better off NOT shedding, thank you. 
    
    One hesitates briefly before such a monotonic thesis.  Surely there 
    are a few other reasons or influences?  Cultural prejudices?  I am
    more surprised at the baldness of the assertion that all of your
    reasons *must* be good ones.  I'm familiar with precious few benefits
    of civilization that haven't also imposed costs.  So your extremist
    "merely animal" is reductionist.  One has more choices than remaining
    100 percent fully clothed at all times vs. going ape.
    
    Were you, perchance, wearing a tie when you wrote that?
    
    DougO

    	It is clear that naturists have a different way of looking at
    	nudity (perhaps the pun was intended...) and as this topic is
    	set up it is worth discussing.
    
    	But I just want to point out that this discussion was spawned 
    	in the Clinton topic as an offshoot of the gaymil discussion.
    	An attempt was made to draw a parallel between gay men sharing
    	a locker room with men, and het men sharing a locker room with
    	het women.  An argument attempting to show this was acceptable 
    	went something like, "Well my teenage daughter was raised with
    	a naturist philosophy, so she's seen it all already anyway, and
    	wouldn't be negatively impacted by it."
    
    	Folks, within the limited world of naturism this would be a valid
    	argument.  But the military is not a naturist organization, nor
    	are the vast majority of facilities that have locker rooms.  From
    	the limited perspected of the naturist, co-ed locker rooms are OK.
    	I contend that the mere fact that some woman is a naturist will 
    	not protect her or allow her to feel comfortable in mens locker 
    	room at the local gym.  Oh, perhaps there's nothing in there that
    	she's never seen before, and perhaps she will be able to remain
    	aloof in the shower with the men, but that doesn't change things
    	for the others around her.  And even if the men don't touch her
    	or say a word or even look at her, she will not feel comfortable
    	simply because of who they are.  And even if it were a single
    	man joining her in the women's locker room with a bunch of other
    	women, and even if that one man were perfectly behaved, the
    	naturist woman would not feel comfortable in that setting.

    jack,
    
    more like B and D

    Deb,
    
    Grind it up with Dried red chiles, oregano, and garlic.  Add enough
    vinegar to moisten.  Let set at room temperature for 30 min or so to
    meld, and then fry it up with leftover potatoes.  Serve rolled in whole
    wheat torttillas.  Add grated chees if desired and some real salsa. 
    Guaranteed great breakfast.
    
    meg

    What do the residents of Cedar Waters do in the winter?

 Stay inside and keep warm like everybody else, I assume.





 Jim

       B&D?

    
      Well, DougO, as I've said, it seems harmless to me, if slightly
     fruity.  As to the kids, my guess would be that once they get to
     be teenagers, the net effect would be to increase the likelihood
     that they'll believe their parents are weird, once they find out
     that most people aren't naturists.  But then, it's very likely
     that ANY teenager will conclude his or her parents are weird.
    
      On "sense" :  suppose you were Binder's noble savage, wandering
     naked in the jungle, keeping an eye out for food and useful items,
     mates, and predators like the great cats.  Now suppose that for
     one afternoon you were transported to a twentieth century American
     mall with nothing but a Mastercard, with the understanding that
     when the mall closes, you will be returned to your place of origin
     with only such shopping acquisitions as you select.  Personally,
     I'd select some items of clothing (along with such practicalities
     as a Swiss army knife).  Wouldn't you ?
    
      bb

It's the only way to swim.

    I'd be a naturist. It's just that I get cold easily. :)
    
    For those of you who stay warm under most circumstances, the Naturism 
    conference is located at MOIRA::NATURISM.  If you have trouble accessing 
    it, try using 2373::NATURISM instead.
    
    or send e-mail to: [email protected]

    >It's the only way to swim.
    
     Not where there are bluefish.

       A discussion of swimming and naturism took place in a previous
       version of Soapbox.  I vaguely recall that Ms Christine Quiriy
       involved herself in the topic, that swimming in 58�-60� water at
       ocean beaches in New England was discussed, and that phrases such
       as `shriveled pecker syndrome' and `blue bullet nipple' were used.

    58-60 deg. water regardless of attire will produce the same results. 
    The degree of obviousness will vary, somewhat.  
    
    

    Much as 102 degree F water produces the overcooked-linguine sysndrome. 
    
    

| <<< Note 559.23 by XEDON::JENSEN >>>

| Someone who bought a gift to send you.  And it's still
| sitting around my house, unmailed, don't ya know.

	Mail it now!!! Mail it now!!!!! :-)

>shriveled pecker syndrome' and `blue bullet nipple'

Not talking about immersing oneself in ice water, for
heaven's sake...

    When women swim naked they don't have the, um, tacking problem that men
    do.

<----they just have high beams

><----they just have high beams

oh?  men are nippleless?

| <<< Note 559.49 by LANDO::OLIVER_B >>>

| oh?  men are nippleless?

	Gee... if only Terrie were here......

	They aren't nipless, but I guess seeing mine rarely if ever pop, I
wasn't thinking clearly...... :-)

    
    	RE: Glenn [.47]
    
    	And depending on who you're thinking about, you can either slow
    	down or speed up.
    
    	If you want to go faster, think of Roseanne.
    	If you want to go slower, think of Helen Hunt.
    

    Gives new meaning to "Hard to port!"