Conference back40::soapbox

    
    They were discussing this on WBCN this AM, Charles was kind of
    spoutting off about it.
    
    He was interviewing someone who said the "criteria" for receiving an
    organ varies from organization to organization (guess there must be
    several which procure organs) and because Mantles status was upgraded
    because he needed one to survior, he was moved to the top of the list.
    
    The guy he was interviewing said there are at least 40,000 people
    wanting for liver transplants, but some have been waiting two weeks to
    5 years but they cases are not life threatening, they can still survior
    without an immediate transplant.
    
    Also, Charles felt that because donates his organs for free, the
    receiver should get them for free, the guy said his operation cost
    $125K.
    
    Charles was coming right out and saying that if you are well known, you
    become first in line.
    
    Personally, if the guy rotted away his liver due to alchoholism, that's
    his problem.
    
    

    
    Alcohol is only one of the factors.  He also has Hepatitis C (which
    no-one has yet told us how he contracted), and a small cancerous
    tumor in/on the liver.
    

    
    
    There are too many unanswered questions to speak on this as of yet, the
    main one being, "Has someone else died cuz Mickey got this liver (and
    not them).
    
    
    Mike

    .1
    
    Charles was full of it.  Mantle did not get a liver because he's a
    famous sports hero, he got it because he was going to die.  Tomorrow.
    The criticality of the individual case and the recipient's
    compatibility with the donated organ determine who gets an organ
    transplant.

    
    re. .4    That is what the person he was interviewing was trying to
    	      tell him, that each case is treatedly differently and
    	      that is how who gets an organ is transplanted.
    
    

    Charles is an axe grinding fool, always has been, always will be.  

re: .1

There are 3 causes for his liver failure:

1) Excessive drinking

2) Cancer of the liver

3) Hepatitis C - apparently from a tainted blood transfusion.

Bob

ZZ    There are 3 causes for his liver failure:
    
    My wife has Primary Billiary Cirrohsis of the liver.  This is a genetic 
    disease...unknown why it happens.  The ducts at the bottom are
    deteriorating...it is natural for her body to do this...in an unnatural
    sort of way.  She will most likely need a transplant in about ten
    years.  
    
    Just one of those things.  But there are other causes for liver
    failure.
    
    -Jack 

>    Suppose Ted Kennedy needed a liver? (This has a high chance of being a
>    fact) Would he wait 128 days for a donor? Would he have to pay $'s to
>    Bethesda Naval Hospital for the operation?

Presumably he has pretty good medical insurance.  If a Digital employee
needed an organ transplant, he wouldn't have to pay much either.

	Reportedly, each transplant candidate gets a priority number
	based upon how critical he is determined to be.  For the priority
	level assigned to Mantle, the average wait is 3 days.  He got
	his new liver in 2 days.

	The country is sectioned up, and there are lists for each part
	of the country.  For the region he was in, he ranked number one.
	He thus got the next available liver.

	Karen

    He only got moved up because he was a famous athlete. If he was a run
    of the mill guy, he would have to wait in line like most ordinary
    people. American priorites are really messed up! If you can hit a ball
    or do a famous crime you're a hero. But save a life or work real hard
    at your job and you're not very important. Maybe I'll go have a drink
    now.
    

    .12
    
    Your proof, please?  I know of a similar case - my mother worked in a
    pathology lab - in which a run of the mill guy, who was on record and
    therefore already typed, got hauled in through the ER and displaced a
    patient who was already being prepped for a kidney.

    
    With a diagnosis of cancer, does it make sense to go ahead and perform?
    
    My dad had cancer, that is not what killed him, but the fact that the
    disease eventually attacked his vital organs and they shut down.
    
    Doesn't Mantel have the same risk?  If his cancer spreads, his chances
    of survival decrease.
    
    Personally, after I saw what my dad went threw, I'd take the two days
    instead of the 6 months of hell.
    
    Mary
    

It depends if the cancer's spread.

    
      He should have had to wait longer - after all, his triple crown
     came on modest stats.  Won the homer title 55 (37), 56 (52), 58 (42), and
     60 (40).  Only won RBI's in 56 with 130, as with BA of .353.  After
     his knee troubles he struck out too much and couldn't really cover
     center.
    
      So if it came down to it, Ted Williams ought to get a liver sooner.
    
      bb

Mickey Mantle was an idol of mine when I was growing up.

He played baseball when it was still a real game - no
girly men ball players crying about $$$.

He quit drinking years ago.

The Mick deserves all the liver he can get.

	Years ago - 1.5 years ago to be exact.

	Hardly enough to curtail the damage...

	I'd suspect the cancer of the liver is not unrelated to
	his years of drinking.

	The doctor said that if the cancer had spread, they probably
	wouldn't do the transplant (it is mandatory to check for
	the spread of the cancer once he is opened up).

Only 1 1/2 years?  I thought he'd been on the 
wagon longer than that.  

	not according to Matt Lauer

>	The doctor said that if the cancer had spread, they probably
>	wouldn't do the transplant (it is mandatory to check for
>	the spread of the cancer once he is opened up).

        Doc on WBZ this AM said that in cases where the cancer of the liver
        might have spread, the hospital will inform the next recipient in
        line prior to the operation to be ready just in case.  If the
	cancer did spread, then the backup person gets it.

	Bill
	

What does Deb Lauer have to say about it?

He gave up the bottle 1.5 years ago.

And who's Matt Lauer?  A biographer?

    
    back to .0
    
    the answer is "money and fame" - this is America, that is its SOP,
    right?
    i personally believe that it is unethical and amoral that an alcoholic
    who essentially HAD CHOSEN to destroy his liver (and brain cells and 
    whatever else) can buy himself a liver, while someone else, probably
    more worthy, will probably die.
    
    also what him makes so special - what societal contribution has he given,
    apart from paying baseball as A JOB?
          

 Hey...he hit a lot of home runs!

	how idiotic - so now we're supposed to make value judgments
	before giving out organs?  this guy was an alcoholic.  yeah,
	but that guy cheated on his taxes.  yeah, but this guy screwed
	around on his wife.  yeah, but that guy had dandruff.
	gimme a break. 

    Re: .24
    
    Matt Lauer is a cute noozreader on one of the morning shows.

	value judgements on dandruff holders ?  my oh my!

    It should have nothing to do with what he did necessarily. But why does
    an athletic star get a better chance than anyone else? Sports are not
    everything. It should be based on need, not how much someone is able to
    buy there way into everything-typically the American Way. Let's ask OJ
    how fame can help.
    

    BTW way back to .8 - Sorry to hear that Jack.  Hope she gets the
    treatment she needs when she needs it.  
    
    Brian

    >> So if it came down to it, Ted Williams ought to get a liver sooner.
    
    ...whether he needs one or not!  :-)
    
    
    Based on the prioritization criteria that I'd heard on Paulllll
    Harrrrrvey this morning (age, presence of cancer, overall health,
    and so on), his placement at the top of the list sounds suspicious,
    but not particularly surprising in our culture.
    
    Easy trivia question on the radio this morning:  Who did Mantle
    replace in center field for the Yankees?
    
    Chris

	.30   What evidence do you have for your assertions?

    
    Matt Lauer is on the Today show, and no relation 8^).

    



>    Easy trivia question on the radio this morning:  Who did Mantle
>    replace in center field for the Yankees?
    
 
 Joe Dimaggio.



    
    

    Today Show interviewed a doc at the hospital.  Mantle was moved to
    the top of the list because he was deemed the most critical patient
    in his locale (local areas are checked first).
    
    The doctor interviewed said the cancer was a concern, but it was a
    small tumor right now and had been discovered during a routine exam
    for his other condition.  The doctor did say that because of the
    cancer a second potential recipient had been put on standby; if it
    was discovered that the cancer had spread once the surgery commenced,
    he would have been closed up immediately and the liver would be used
    for the standby recipient.  
    
    I tend to think the above is accurate. The doctor made it clear that
    they would not use the liver in someone who had metastasized cancer;
    organ rejection is the major concern.  Chemotherapy or radiation to
    treat cancer in other areas would have been impossible.
    
    

    	Does the health insurance of anyone who is reading this pay 	
    	for liver transplants?  Any transplants?
    
    	Most HMOs won't...
    
    	Primary consideration to get a person on "the list" is their 
    	ability to pay for the operation.  Sorry folks, but that's the 
    	way it works.
    
    	Once on the list, patients are categorized by geographic location, 
    	and then by blood type and other body type factors.  Within those 
    	categories the names on the list are ranked by criticality of their 
    	respective conditions.
    
    	Mantle didn't displace ALL the others on the list.  He only
    	displaced those with similar blood types in his geographic
    	area.
    
    	Regarding Mantle deserving a new liver eventhough it was by
    	his own actions that he damaged it, as long as he is able to
    	pay for drastic surgery, why deny him?

    Obviously, Mick doesn't belong to CIGNA.

Being as how it's now going on 15 hours since he was admitted to surgery,
have there been any reports as to how things went?

    They said he has a 95% chance of leaving the hospital.  80% chance of
    living 1 year and 60% chance of living 5 years.
    
    Mike

Well, that's a tremendous improvement over yesterday for him. I'm glad it
worked out well.

    $$ talks, BS walks.

  At the press conference at the  hospital in Dallas today, a brilliant
 "reporter" asked how the donor was doing after the surgery.




 Jim

?!?!?!?!?!?

What was the response???

  Several minutes of laughter and the doctor said something like "I take it
 your not familiar with transplant medicine".  I heard a bit of the clip on
 the radio tonight.



 Jim

Well, you don't actually have to be dead to be a kidney donor, but there can't 
be too many living liver donors.

It's sounds like the Monty Python sketch...
"We've come for your liver"
"I haven't finished with it"


Chele

    The donor is reportedly a liverless, yellow-bellied stiff.  No
    confirmation has been received yet.

    for all those who think Mantle got special treatment please go touch
    yourselves in the corner of the room.
    
    and now, for a moment of total immaturity...
    
    :-pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp's
    
    TYVM
    
    Chip

    
    
    Some of you folks are truely unbelievable.  I imagine your self
    righteous tunes would change should it involve a family member of yours
    who may be an alcoholic.  Of course you will sit here and chant no way,
    but that's easy to do since you are not faced with the situation.
    
    
    Where the surgery was done (Baylor), they have a policy of not doing
    transplants to alcoholics.  They said that the damage done to Micky's
    liver was primarily caused by the Hepatitis C which he contracted
    during a blood transfusion and that's why he was accepted there.  
    
    And as has been stated earlier, his getting the liver was done just as
    it would be done for anyone else, how critical the need is.  
    
    
    
    Mike

    
    re: .25
    
    So, according to your belief, if a homosexual, who "HAD CHOSEN" to
    participate in a certain high risk behaviour, should be put at the
    bottom of the list if he becomes HIV positive, when it comes to medical
    attention??

    For those that care, Mickey went back into surgery for a minor fix to
    something that wasn't doen quite right the first time in.  Prognosis is
    very good.  
    
    Brian

    .51
    You are obviously a victim of media propaganda. Having spent many years
    in the television industry, news in particular, the media is very
    clever at manipulating their audience. The media drives the minds
    of the masses.
    
    By the way, if I were in the same situation, I am sure that if it were
    between my family member or Mantle, the athlete would win because he is
    has hit more runs than my daughter. That's the real problem. American
    priorities!
    
    

    They should have let him die.  He was old, and has lived his life.
    I can't believe there isn't some sick 10 year old somewhere that
    could have used that liver.

    
    <-------
    
    Obviously a graduate of the Mengele School of Medicine...
    

    
    
    RE: .55  Me, a victim of media propaganda?  That just shows how foolish
    you are.  
    
    Quit babbling and point to a source that backs your claims.  
    
    
    hope this helps.
    

    ZZ    BTW way back to .8 - Sorry to hear that Jack.  Hope she gets the
    ZZ    treatment she needs when she needs it.  
    
    Brian, thanks for the note.
    
    We got the diagnosis about three months ago.  She is now on a drug
    called Actigall and will be on it for the remainder of her life. 
    The drug is actually Bile from a Polar Bear...believe it or not.
    
    As a diabetic, she does a blood test four times a year at the doctors
    and they found levels of exzymes 8 times higher than what they should
    be.  That was the indicator of course.  A thirty day prescription would
    cost $140.00 but fortuantely I have a $3.00 copay!  I am indeed
    fortunate.  We just go on with life and don't think of it anymore.
    
    Now, you all know I always have to ruin a potential tender moment and
    make something political.  My wife has two serious preexiting
    conditions that could potentially kill her and ruin me financially....
    
    
    
    
    OPPOSE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE AT ALL COST!  You are hearing this from
    somebody who should prolly lobby for it.  Don't let those imbecels EVER
    use manipulation to appeal to you like the witch tried a few years
    ago!!!
    
    -Jack

    My guess is the cost is being subsidized by the private sector.  That
    being Harvard Community Health Plan, Digital Equipment Corporation, and
    my $21.00 copay!  You know something I don't know?!
    
    -Jack

    
    Digital mr. topaz, who else?

Re: .56

What do you go by?  God, for short?

    >God, for short?
    
     Almost. God is an anagram of what he goes by.

    the doctor interviewed was asked about Mantle's alcoholism. he
    stated very clearly that if Mantle's rehabilitation efforts were
    not assessed to be successful he would not have qualified...
    
    Hey Mike, who is this ::BUCKLEY person who appears to have no
    interest in anything at all???
    
    Chip

.56 is proof that roller coasters cause brain damage.

    
    
    
    Chip, 
    
    
    No idea, from what I've seen he's a mailroom wannabe though.
    
    
    Mike
    

    -1 :-)

Maybe he's a John Silber wannabe.

    was that the sound of one hand clapping?

    -1 oooooooo 

I'd like to see Bob Dole high-fiving John Silber.

    cruel

>       So, as I understand it, you don't mind Socialized Medicine if the
>       people who run it are  in the private sector, but you wouldn't
>       touch Socialized Medicine with a very long pole if the people who
>       run it are in the public sector.  Interesting philosophy.
>       
>       --Mr Topaz

 Let's see, One is voluntary, one is not. One is market driven, one is not.
 One requires a contribution of good faith, one does not. One is influenced
 by the choices of independent individuals and one is influences by the body 
 politic. One is a responsibility and one becomes a right.

 Yes, Interesting philosophy.

 There are good reasons to agree and disagree with boths sides of the 
 argument.

 Doug.

    I agree 100% with base note, on all aspects of the subject.

    operative words "may have bypassed" <- opinion. one, which i believe,
    has proven to have no basis is fact.
    
    Chip

 ZZ   So, as I understand it, you don't mind Socialized Medicine if
 ZZ   the people who run it are  in the private sector, but you wouldn't
 ZZ   touch Socialized Medicine with a very long pole if the people
 ZZ   who run it are in the public sector.  Interesting philosophy.
    
    It shouldn't be a surprise.  It has been proven that government is
    incompetent in such matters.  If we had gov't socialized medicine right
    now alot of transplant candidates would most likely be on ice today!
    
    The witch had it allll worked out for us!
    
    -Jack

    time for some facts:
    
    - The doctors at Baylor do not operator on alcoholics.  Mick's been on
      the wagon for a few years now.
    
    - Mick was the worst case on the waiting list.  He was less than 2
      weeks from death.

    Yes folks there are some of us who are not rich or famous but recieved
    a liver transplant because we were just that sick.  I had a severe
    form of hepatitis that attacked my liver causing rapid deterioration.
    I was told on a Sat. night that my only chance of survival was a 
    transplant and I was contacted on Sun. night that a donor had been 
    identified.  I was a status 1.  (Which basically means there is no
    time left) 
    
    I have thought a lot about how to reply to this string concerning
    preferential treatment.  I do some public speaking for the New
    England Organ Bank and interviews with the local press whenever
    asked.  
    
    Do I think there was special treatment for Mickey Mantle.  No and 
    here is why: 
    
    A person gets a liver (or any organ) depending on size, blood type,
    and location of donor.  
    
    Mickey Mantle did not take an organ from a 10 year old.  An organ that
    would fit a man his size would never fit into the small frame of a
    10 year old. 
    
    Blood type is blood type.  If you are type A+ and an B- donor appears
    you are no longer on the top of the list no matter how sick you are.
    
    Location - it is the policy of UNOS (the governing body of theses
    matters) that the donor organs be given to the nearest geographical
    transplant unit.  If there are no matching recipients at that time,
    the organs are offered to other transplant hospital.  But remember
    these organ can only be kept viable for a certain amount of time.
    One of the big hudles with transplants.  I was in Boston, if a 
    donor my size and blood type showed up in San Diego it would not have
    worked, given the retrieval time, air time and the seriousness of my
    situation.
    
    This drama goes on constantly, but we only hear about it when it is
    someone famous.   In order for a transplant to happen  many 
    levels of doctors, surgeons, organ procurement co-ordinators, nurses,
    have to be involved in the process and choreographed to make it happen.
    
    Trust me on this, until your back has been against that wall, where
    there are no choices left, and you are talking to your family about
    what are they going to do without you, do you begin  to understand
    that these are very difficult medical decisions to make. Both for
    the families and for the medical community.  I don't know of any
    transplant surgeon who is going to jeopordize his career by making
    a decision based on anything expect medical necessity.
    
    I never thought I would be a sort of spokesperson for organ
    transplantation.  But will I defend a process that saved my
    life or might save the life of someone I know  - absolutely.
    
    Ask if there are any questions I can answer.
    
    Barbara Gardner
    
    
      
       
    

    Barbara, congratulations on your operation's success and thanks for
    bringing reason to this topic.
    
    Mike

 Yes!

    	I thought that a liver from a 10-year-old would be useable in
    	an adult.  I realize that it was 20 years ago that I had high
    	school biology, but I recall that certain organs (livers, kidneys)
    	quickly grow to support the body to which they are transplanted.
    	Hearts and lungs do not.
    
    	It is not the preferred scenario, but it can be done.
    
    	But beyond that, I agree with everything else Barbara said about
    	donor-recipient matching.  A close friend of mine also had a
    	liver transplant in Denver.  She waited for nearly a year, but
    	her condition was not critical.  It took her a long time just
    	to get on the list because she did not have the funding to pay
    	for it, and her insurance wouldn't pay.  It took several months
    	of intense community fundraising for her to get the first 50%
    	of the cost (which then made her eligible for the list) and then
    	9 months of waiting for her turn on her segment of the list.
    	She was kept well-informed of her position on the list, and
    	quite often she found her name getting pushed DOWN, not up, as
    	more critical patients were placed in fron of her.  In time her
    	criticality grew, and she climbed quickly.  One night she was
    	called at 9PM at her home.  "Be in Denver in 2 hours.  Your
    	liver is on its way."
    
    	Her operation was a success.  Her jaundice was gone quickly, and
    	she was out of the hospital rather quickly (relative to other
    	transplant patients.)  She now faces a lifetime of taking anti-
    	rejection drugs, and the expense for these are also not covered
    	by her insurance.

    Oh your welcome.  It is an absolutely beautiful day in New England but 
    I had to get on the system and see what was going on.  
    
    I am on a transplant/medical list that is gigantic this a.m. It has
    some statements as to exactly how Mantel was chosen, and other very
    level handed remarks on preferentail treatment - which I don't believe
    exists.  If for no other reason that to allow the people who are
    dealing with the most agonizing wait of a lifetime the hope that they
    will be dealt with fairly.  Although I did not have that wait, it is
    one of the most difficult hands a person can be dealt.
                                                       
    
    There is a transplant surgeon on the list that did an interview
    with a local CNN chanel for an hour.  Guess what - the cameras were
    shut off after he explained the process and said that Mantel was the
    sickest person in North Texas (I think Baylor is north Texas) at that
    time.
    
    One other comment and although I don't agree with this - it's the
    reality of the transplant world.  These surgeons are not into 
    touchy/feeley.  All hospitals large enough to have a transplant
    unit also have a pr department. They need to do that piece 
    better - the surgeons letting the pr people know whats going on.
    These surgeons are scientist - they look at your blood numbers, they
    look at what your body is doing - if they get hauled into a press
    conference, so be it.  
    
    When I get to work I will try to post some of the comments from
    UNOS/surgeons/New England Organ Bank.  That is too complicated for
    my little VT 320 here at home.
                             
    Now back to my gardening.
   
    Barbara

    re. 84, if the adult is the same size as the 10 yr. yes that would 
    work.  Small adult, larger child.  
    
    You're right, it can be done, but not the prefered scenario.  They
    have done some experimentation with this.  Remember you're own
    liver will grow with you because everything is in sync.  A transplanted
    liver is fighting many battles, the biggest of which is the immune 
    system.   The surgeons will try to give your body every chance 
    possible to be successful with this new organ.

re: .81

Thank you Barbara!  I could hardly believe some of the comments I was reading
in here:-(

Bob

    	I spoke further with my liver transplant friend, and she said
    	that besides geography and blood typing, they also allocate
    	livers by size.  Yes, livers will grow to support the body
    	into which they are transplanted, but they are looking for 
    	immediate liver function, and one that is too small is too
    	ineffective initially.  They might transplant a teen donor-
    	liver into a small adult, but that'a about as extreme in
    	size differential that they will try.
    
    	Also, time-on-list is a factor that may begin to weigh
    	against criticality.  A person on the list for a year who
    	still has an estimated 6 weeks to live may end up edging out
    	a newe patient on the list with only 4 weeks to live.

    
    When someone - anyone - can name the individual who died because
    Mickey got this liver...THEN maybe we'll have a scandal.
    
    Not before.
    
    jc
    

    -1 right!

    >>When someone - anyone - can name the individual who died because 
    >>Mickey got this liver...THEN maybe we'll have a scandal.
    
    
    actually, i think mickey got a liver because someone died...not the
    other way around...
    
    
    and thanks barbara for your story and setting some people straight (no,
    glen, not you... :>).  
    
    -raq
    
    

    
    
    Good to hear about your success, Barbara, and I echo the appreciation
    for enlightening me on this subject.  We can read different things in
    different periodicals, but it is good to hear the facts frome someone
    who has been there.
    
    
    Mike

    re .88 - you are absolutely right about size.  The surgeons are going
    to give the patient and every one involved with this process every
    advantage possible to be successful.  
    
    Now a comment about donor dying and recipient living.  I explained 
    this to a reporter this week-end and she said "Oh I never thought
    of it that way"
    
    A person was in an automobile accident.  I had fulminant hepatitis.
    These two events had absolutely nothing to do with each other.  The
    common bond was the New England Organ Bank/Mass. General Hospital/
    and modern medicine.  I struggled with this for a long, long time.
    I couldn't sleep, I had nightmares and I finally ended up in therapy
    trying to deal with this.  This whole process is no walk in the park.
    I had nothing to do with this person's death, neither did Mickey
    Mantle have anything to do with his donor's death. They are two 
    separate events.  I think once people realize how random life can be
    do you begin to appreciate how special little things are and at that
    time you start to not dwell on things that are totally out of your 
    control.  It all just as easily could have gone the other way for
    any tranplant patient there is.  
    
    Guess that is my thought for the morning.  I really didn't mean to
    get on any "Isn't life grand" soapbox, but what the heck.  
    
    Barbara
                                                             

>    - The doctors at Baylor do not operator on alcoholics.  Mick's been on
>      the wagon for a few years now.

Nit: Mantle may be on the wagon, but he'll always be an alcoholic.  Presumably
they don't transplant livers into active alcoholics (or whatever the term is).

    
    
    It's something we need to be reminded of, Barbara.  Thank you for
    today's reminder.
    
    
    Mike

    Hopefully, what we've all learned from this is that we should fill out
    and sign the little organ donor portion of our drivers licenses.

    
    
    <--- in your not so humble opinion.
    
    
    i have a signed donor card, but that doesn't mean everyone else should
    have one, too.  it is a personal decision.
    
    

    >it is a personal decision.
    
    What, did I accidentally type "We should pass a law requiring everyone
    to donate their organs"?
    
    We have all these notes about how great it is that people get to
    continue living thanks to organ donations.  If it's such a great and
    wonderful thing, then obviously it's worth supporting.  And the best
    way of supporting it is to donate your organs, since you can't have
    transplants without donors.

    Well...lookie here ---->

    A Mickey SNARF!

 Why .9?

    
      (See back of M's jersey.)  bb

    
    
    Er......um......lessee, he plaid baseball......er, they wear #'s on
    their uniforms......er, I have no idea, good question muppetman....

    
>      (See back of M's jersey.)  bb



  Looking at the back of Mantle's jersey, one would see a "7" not a "9".  Roger
 Maris wore #9.




 Jim

 Whoops...Andy beat me to it.

>    Er......um......lessee, he plaid baseball

No, he pinstriped baseball.

    There should be a law against donating a Wurlitzer.

Uh Chels, my driver's license doesn't have a place to sign for donating organs.

Bob

    
    No, he through a baseball

    So, this Mickey guy, he a ballplayer or something?

    Re: .112
    
    >Uh Chels, my driver's license doesn't have a place to sign for
    >donating organs.
    
    Well, how geographically insensitive of me.  Pardon me while I indulge
    in a little self-immolation.

    
>>    Well, how geographically insensitive of me.  Pardon me while I indulge
>>    in a little self-immolation.

	might be bad for the organs.

    
    
    > self-immolation
    
    
    We should be so lucky!!
    
    
    
    
      Just kidding!!! Just kidding!!!
    

    
    Well...MY organs are fair game...first come...first served!
    
    (I doubt you'd want my liver, though...)
    

    
    Come on, sir...don't muck us about.

    >Pardon me while I indulge in a little self-immolation.
    
    Can I watch?  :)
    
    I'm not donating any organs, I need them!
    
    Oh, you mean in case I die.......Sorry!!!  :)
    
    ...Tom

    
    First Man: Hallo! What's this then...?
    
    Mr Bloke: A liver donor's card.
    
    First Man: Need we say more?
    
    Second Man: No!
    
    Mr Bloke: Look, I can't give it to you now. It says 'In The Event
         of Death'...
    
    First Man: No-one who has ever had their liver taken out by us has
         survived...
    
              [The second man is rummaging around in a bag of clanking
              tools.]
    
    Second Man: Just lie there, sir. it won't take a minute.
                                                            

    
    	Great movie!!
    

Man in Pink Evening Dress: Whenever life gets you down, Mrs Brown
     And things seem hard or tough
     And people are stupid obnoxious or daft
     And you feel that you've had quite enough...

[As he starts to sing, the wall of the kitchen disintegrates to
reveal a magnificent night sky. The vocalist in pink escorts Mrs
Bloke up into the stars.]

     Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
     And revolving at 900 miles an hour,
     That's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned,
     A sun that is the source of all our power.
     The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see,
     Are moving at a million miles a day
     In an outer spiral arm, at 40,000 miles an hour,
     Of the galaxy we call the Milky Way.

     Our galaxy itself contains 100 billion stars
     It's 100,000 light years side to side.
     It bulges in the middle, 16,000 light years thick
     But out by us its just 3,000 light years wide
     We're 30,000 light years from galactic central point,
     We go round every 200 million years
     And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
     In this amazing and expanding Universe.

     The Universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
     In all of the directions it can whizz
     As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know,
     12 million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
     So remember when you're feeling very small and insecure
     How amazingly unlikely is your birth
     And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
     Because there' bugger all down here on earth.

    To be an organ donor - I'm surprised I haven't gotten my little speech
    in sooner -  the most important thing is to let your spouse, SO 
    or whoever would be responsible for you know what your wishes would 
    be.  
    
    An organ procurement co-ordinator gets everyone together that
    would be making this decision.  If there are 5 kids  making that decision,
    and one says no, then it is no.  The wishes of the surviving people
    dictate what is done.  Organ banks realize that in the long run these
    people need to support each other in their grief and no organ bank,
    transplant clinic or surgeon has any intention of interrupting that
    process.  This wishes of the family are first and formost.  So
    talk it over with your families.  You will also find out what 
    their wishes would be.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If anyone is interested I said I would post one of the conversation
    from the web, concerning the media and how they present what makes the 
    news.  
    
    It's interesting reading:
    
    Date:    Fri, 9 Jun 1995 08:16:59 -0400
    From:    Jeff Punch <[email protected]>
    Subject: Re: NPR report, more facts
    
                          Subject:                              Time:  7:58
    AM
      OFFICE MEMO         RE>NPR report, more facts             Date: 
    6/9/95
    
    
    re:  Mickey Mantel transplant
    
    The response is from a Jeff Punch, who is with transplant surgery
    at the University of Michigan.  
    
    
    Mike Holloway wrote:
    >  ...but I'm hopping mad at those idiots for not preparing the press
    > for the inevitable reaction of every man, woman and child on the
    planet.
    
    Jeff Punch's response:
    
    I know exactly how you feel, but I think the blame for the apparent
    lack of sensitivity to the issue of fairness may lay more with the 
    individual TV/Radio station  rather than with Baylor.  Baylor may 
    have gone out of their make the point that the same thing could have
    happened to anyone, but it only gets conveyed if the media sees fit 
    to present it that way.  Yesterday I got a call from our PR department
    asking me to appear on CNN for an interview about the fairness 
    question (my more senior partneres are all out of town). 
    
    Great, I thought, now I get a chance to try to set things out fairly.  
    Well, to make a long story short, it didn't happen.  Oh, the cameras came,
    one from channels 2, 4, 7 and 50 in Detroit, plus some local radio 
    stations (CNN's Detroit crew didn't make our press conf).  But literally 
    AS SOON as they heard me say "this is not a story of a scandal, it is a 
    story of love, a story of how some anonymous family saw it in their
    heart to give other human beings a chance to live again.  The donor 
    undoubtedly gave a heart and kidneys, and possibly lungs as well to 
    someone deserving.  According to what I have heard on the
    media, there is no evidence that favoritism played a part in Mantle's
    choice as the liver recipient.  The news report I heard played the chief of
    txp at Baylor stating that Mantle was the sickest person in North Texas
    needing a liver.  I have no reason to doubt it.  That is the current 
    system:  "sickest first."  Anyway, as soon as they heard me say that part, 
    they LITERALLY turned off their cameras.  I was astounded.   The 
    interviewers politely asked questions for an hour, but it was clear 
    that if I wasn't going to raise the spector of a scandal or an injustice, 
    there was NO story.  A pity.  I viewed all the reports on the local 
    stations last night:  only one addressed the issue of fairness at all, 
    and everyone cut the part about the "story of love part" that I was 
    proud to have thought of on the spur of the moment. 
    
    What can I say, but I tried.
    
    Jeff Punch
    Transplantation Surgery
    University of Michigan
    [email protected]
    
      

	Did Mantle get the bad liver from drinking, or from Billy Martin?

	Too funny Topaz.... tooo funny!! :-)

    He has a gut feeling about these things.

    Gutsy call, Glenn.

    
    Oh, have a heart, you guys; don't start this again.
    

    Why, Mz_Deb?  No stomach for it?

    
    I see my request was in vein.

    Oh no, not another bloody pun-fest!

    A complaint like that, from Mr. Leech?  How ironic!

    
    Ah, don't cell him short, dick.

Leech has a short.... oh never mind...

    the string simply shows a lack of intestinal fortitude...

    
    well Chip, you certainly have your gall

    I wish you would stop bladdering on. Gall, are you kidney?

    
    Glenn, I can't stand all this bile from you.

    
    And the punfest lymphs along.

    
    nodes thanks to you.

    
    I'm afraid I just don't understand all this, you'll have to spleen it
    to me.
    
    
    
    
    Rob
    

        This is getting to be more than I can stomach.
    
    Dan

You're ribbing us, right?

    We need an appendix to keep track of them I think.

    
    maybe, we can cut to the heart of the matter.

    aorta kill you.

    
    sounds bleeding serious Glenn.

    
    Kill him?!  Why, what gall!
    

    This is becoming vein repetition.

    this string has now to the bowels lunacy.

    
    
    
     I can parse that sentence in 3 notes!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    

    
    	Parse that sentence.
    

    
    
    >this string has now to the bowels lunacy.
    
                        ^             ^
                        |_ sunk       |_ of
    
    
      Best I could do with what was there...
    
     I'm sure Herr Binder can (and will) do better...
    

    
    
    re .53 - krawiecki
    
    well, your reaction to my comment is quite irrelevant. my point
    was that there is a consequence to mantle getting the liver, namely
    someone else probably did not.
    
    however your response did bring another issue: is society responsible
    to cure/fix/treat diseases resulted from "lifestyle" choices AND in
    essence offer NO accountability for those, as a result of their
    lifestyle, are DIRECTLY affected??  Before you froth, I said
    DIRECTLY...meaning for example this would exclude a hemophiliac who has 
    AIDS from contaminated blood or a child born infected from the mother.
    
    this guy quit the bottle ONLY 1.5 yrs ago! and how much do you want to
    bet that he's not going to fall off the wagon again?
    
    he might have been the sickest guy in N. texas (using by-the-book
    prioritization); I am also curious who was the second sickest, and
    what's the differences between them?
    
     

    
    .157
    
    >...there is a consequence to mantle getting the liver,
    
    ...which is a factual statement...
    
    >...namely someone else probably did not.
    
    ...which is unsupported by this unfactual statement.
    
    Who did not get the liver, who needed it right away, and has 
    died (or will soon die)?
    

    
    re: .157
    
    Nobody's frothing as far as I can see...
    
     My .53 was a simple analogy to your .25... not a "reaction"
    
    Comprehension on your part would help greatly in the discussion...
    

    
    well he got the liver, so quit your bellyaching.

>                     <<< Note 453.157 by SX4GTO::WANNOOR >>>

>>    essence offer NO accountability for those, as a result of their
>>    lifestyle, are DIRECTLY affected?? 

	just how would this "accountability" manifest itself?  in death?

sounds like this guy has a bone to pick...

 i think you're right, Oph.

Oph is offal.

re .157:

>    he might have been the sickest guy in N. texas (using by-the-book
>    prioritization); I am also curious who was the second sickest, and
>    what's the differences between them?

At the time of Mantle's operation they had another recipient prepped and
ready for surgery, in case Mantle's cancer had spread.  This other person
would have gotten the liver if it had spread, since the surgeons felt
there wasn't much point to do the transplant on Mantle.

I don't know what condition this person was in, or if he has a liver now.

    .156 thank you so much... i must've lapsed into one of the coma things
         as i so often do...            

well how about a brain transplant?

Watched Branaugh's Frankenstein (stinky version).
But who knows?  Maybe someday they'll be popping
in new brains...livers, hearts, brains...parts is
parts.

    
    Brain and brain!  What is brain?
    

the brain in spain falls mainly down the drain...

    John, you are not Morg, you are not Imorg, what _are_ you?

    
    I yam what I yam.
    

    you know, abby normal's brain!
    
    wouldn't the transplant of a brain involve somewhat of an opposite
    objective, e.g. the continued life of a specific individual versus
    a body.
    
    wouldn't you have a different person in someone else's body? someone
    with a bad brain could donate their entire body to someone with a 
    with a bad body or vice versa... weird! 
    
    would the brain retain the information and personality of the original
    owner? what about a warranty?
    
    questions, questions, questions.... :-)
    
    Chip 
      

Are you sure Branaugh is not a variant?

    
    Remember who you're dealing with...these people pronounce the name
    Ralph as "Ray".
    
    :^)
    

Ralph as "Ray"...

As in the Fiennes guy?  Isn't it Rafe?

    
    Hmmmmm...Ralph Fiennes = Rayf Fines?  And here I thought they were
    saying `Ray Fines'.  
    
    Rayf.   Hmmmmm.
    
    No sir, I don't like it.  Don't like it at all.
    

Oh Lurtsema was fun.  So pretentious, but fun.

    .180
    
    > Vaughn Williams did it first...
    
    Tell that to the generations of Savoyards who have performed the role
    of Ralph Rackstraw.

    
    re .159 - hey mr krawiecki
    do you think you can hold a conversation without sliming the person?
    in the words be a mature adult??
    
    
    
    

    
    .183:
    
    Looks like YOU'VE got a little growing up to do.  Andy's analogy was
    valid.  Answer him.  Where do we draw the line on treating lifestyle-
    related illnesses like AIDS, lung cancer, liver failure, or heart
    disease?
    

  I'm hurt that he hasn't answered my question in .161. <waaah>

    
    Well...if everybody would just be *nice* to him...
    
    ;^)
    

    
   "In time each little waif
    Forsook his foster-mother
    The well-born babe was Ralph --
    Your captain was the other!"
    
    H.M.S. Pinafore, 1878
    

  I have only read the first 9 replies, but will reply anyway.    
  When I heard that Mickey Mantle was going to get a new liver that same day,
I immediately got a feeling that something wasn't right. Despite the doctors
saying that he "didn't get special treatment", I still feel that he did, some-
how.
  I am astounded at what high esteem we in the U.S. hold sports figures in,
compared to university professors and other scholars. We have already seen
this in how a former football player (who also had a minor career as an actor,
and happens to live in the media capital of the U.S.) on trial for murder has
gotten hundreds of hours of very expensive TV air time. Now it appears that this
former baseball player has gotten special treatment from the medical
profession.
  I think it's great that Mickey Mantle is apparently going to live. But we are
sending a message to people that it's OK to be an alcoholic because if you ruin
your liver from excessive drinking, you can just go to the "repair shop" and
have a new one put in. And that is the wrong message.

    
    
    you should have read more replies...
    
    

>>       <<< Note 453.188 by TOOK::MORRISON "Bob M. LKG1-3/A11 226-7570" >>>
>>Despite the doctors
>>saying that he "didn't get special treatment", I still feel that he did, some-
>>how.

	Perhaps that's because it's what you _want_ to believe.

    I think these guys are trying to say read .81, I think the most
    important thing I said was "this drama goes on all the time" we
    just don't hear about it.  
    
    I once met my organ procurement co-ordinator (the one who dealt with
    the donor family) and I couldn't stop crying for a week.  Yes I did
    meet her, but I never found out who the donor was, but that's another
    story.  She said the most important thing she has learned to do is
    stand on her feet 24 - 48 hours without falling down.  They commit
    to this family that they will be with the donor from beginning to end
    and that is only one person in this whole thing.  
    
    But I do agree that we idolize sports figures to a ridiculous degree.
    And I guess we have the media to blame for making heroes out of
    people who don't know how to handle the responsibility.  Now I know
    that is another topic. 
    
    
    Barbara
    
    

    
    
    
    Question:  Do those who think that Micky Mantle shouldn't have gotten a
    liver because of his alcohol abuse also think that AIDS pateints (who
    contracted the disease through sexual activity or drug use) shouldn't
    get treatment for their disease?
    

    
    michael...there you go again, stirring up trouble!!!
    
    
    

    
    I heard the wuestion posed and thought it interesting.  You know me,
    Raq, I would never do such a thing. :')
    
    Mike
    
    P.S.  I misspelled patient, fatfingeritis again.

    
    
    you also misspelled question...
    
    ;> ;> ;>
    
    
    

    
    
    er, thanks Raq.......

    
    
    anytime, wannahunnie....:> :>
    
    

    re: .192 yes
    

 Mr. Mantle will be holding a press conference today at 2PM.





 Jim

    
    .199:
    
    Hope you never have a heart attack.
    

>re 192:

>    Question:  Do those who think that Micky Mantle shouldn't have gotten a
>    liver because of his alcohol abuse also think that AIDS pateints (who
>    contracted the disease through sexual activity or drug use) shouldn't
>    get treatment for their disease?

Huh?  I think you're baiting the Right with a question that rests on a very
shakey foundation.  In general, as a matter of medical practice, ethical
philosophy, and legal requirements, AIDS victims, whether as a consequence of
their own behavior or otherwise, are just not denied medical treatment. period.

More generally, what seems to disturb the BWLs, and is inherent in the question
posed in .192, is that most of us are willing to make hard choices and, yes,
apply sanctions to some behaviors.

Cultures are defined, in part, by the moral and ethical constraints they place
on the behavior of their members.  Members who violate those constraints are
condemned to a greater or lesser degree.  Our society (and many others)
condemn most behaviors that are destructive to individuals and especially
those behaviors that put others at risk.  Promiscuity (heterosexual or
homosexual) and main-lining drugs are two such behaviors that kill innocent
people.  People who die of AIDS because they were transfused with infected
blood are innocent victims of someone who engaged in sanctioned behavior.
People who kill their spouses because they engage in extra-marital sex
are deserving of society's condemnation.

Society has a right, nay, a duty, to constrain these behaviors.  Sanctions
against these behaviors and social ostracization of those who engage in them,
are legitimate mechanisms by which society should express its disgust at
individuals who can not control their *voluntarily* and dangerous behaviors.


Now back to the Mantle vs AIDs question: I would turn this question back on
the BWLs and ask how they would apply the concept of triage to this issue
of condemning behavior.  Here's a hypothetical for you all:

	You have discovered a cure for AIDS (a potent extract from the bark
	of coconut trees).  On your flight to Stockholm, you crash on a desert 
	Island.  Only three survive the crash, you and two heretofore fatally 
	diseased AIDS patients.  Unfortunately, you only have one vial of 
	medication (brought as a sample) sufficient to cure only one of the 
	patients.  In otherwords, rationing the medication in any other way, 
	will result in the death of both patients.  The patients are 20 year-old 
	identical twins, both of whom have full-blown AIDS and, in your medical
	judgement have less than a week to live.  Twin 1 contracted HIV from a 
	blood transfusion 5 years earlier.  Twin 2 also acquired the HIV virus 5 
	years earlier, but was (and still is) a persistent user of main-line 
	heroin.

	You've also learned that the pilot of the charter plane carrying you and
	the other passengers failed to file flight plan because it was his
	intention to commit suicide. Due to these, and other circumstances, you
	know that rescue is unlikely to occur within the time remaining to the
	twins.

	What do you do?

Someone in the AIDS box mentioned that all we had to do was love, cherish,
be more tolerant, etc., etc., and the Jesse Helms's of the world would soon
vanish into irrelevance.  Well, I'm here to tell you that real, substantial
ethical and moral dilemmas arise ALL the time.  Societies, and the people who
comprise them, have to make choices.  Those of you of the BWL variety can
not seem to grasp this essential tenet of ordered life.


Cheers,


/mtp

    re: .203

    Bravo ! !

    Very well written, and very good points!

    I do have a question though....
    What is a "BWL"

    :-)
    Dan

    
    
    RE: .203  I don't agree that your analogy is valid.  Clearly everyone
    agrees that people who contracted any kind of ailment through no action
    of their own should receive medical treatment.  What was in question
    was, whether Mantle was deserving of a liver because of his behavior. 
    I do not know of anyone who died because Mantle received his liver and
    the question had been asked by many.  
    
    Mike

re 205
With due respect, you missed the point:  The question I want to examine
is *how* society sets those priorities that were exercised in granting Mantle
his new liver.  Whether the priorities were appropriately applied is of no
interest to me, and the Mantle episode does very little to illuminate the
basis for societies right to allocate life.

A secondary issue, a more personal one, is that the liberal mind seems to me
to be unable to deal with hard questions, i.e., the hard and sharp corners
of our lives.  Those boundaries that often hurt and sometimes kill.  Instead,
the liberal impulse seems to prefer dwelling in a world populated with a few
gentle speed bumps here and there.  The liberal mind is compelled by the
notion that Thelma and Louise were enobled by suicide, not by the fact that they
took the coward's way out because they couldn't face the big bad males.

The note to which I responded posed a question to whose framing and context I
believe captures the essence of this thread, vis, how does society deal with the
hard issues of life.  Not the kind of issues solved by Marin-think,
flower-speak, and Box-deep thinking.  Hence, my interest in posing the Triage
question and seeing what the Liberal mind would offer as their answer.

Will our liberal collegues be able to make a choice?

In making the choice, did the liberal actually apply values that derive from
something other than moral relativism?



Regards,

/mtp

    
    What's all this I keep hearing about Oregon transplants?  People from
    Oregon who move to other states should...what's that?
    
    Oh...nevermind.
                       

.203

A few questions...

Are there desert islands in the North Atlantic?

Would the pilot need to crash into an island if
he was intent on committing suicide?  I mean,
couldn't he just crash the plane into the water?

What is a BWL?   

Where's the junky gonna get heroin on a desert island in the N. Atlantic?

    Yes, there are desert islands in the North Atlantic.  Most of the
    Windwards and Leewards qualify as do the Bahamas.  

How did I know the pilot didn't file a flight plan?

    
    
    Since MM had his transplant, organ donor cards (where Mick got his
    liver) went from 10-12 a weak to 700 since his operation.
    
    Mike

    
    re: .212
    
    Mike,
    
    > went from 10-12 a weak
    
    
    "Hey Mac!!! How long have you had a weak back???"
    
    
    "Oh... about a week back..."
    
    

    
    
    oops, mea culpa....I knew that, Andy.

    
    Larry Hagman is getting a new liver.
    

    
    Already?  I just heard this morning that he was on The List.
    
    

    
    Oh...well...I mean...eventually...y'know.
    

    Did he make a wish with Jeannie?
    

    He should've stuck with Jeannie.  Becoming JR killed him.

    
    
    he's been 'needing' a new liver for a few weeks now...
    
    

    
    But I'm still using it!
    

    
    I heard Gomer Pyle just go a new liver.  They must be having 
    a special on livers or sumthin

	They started up the Andy Griffith show again? I guess that must mean
Matlock is done..... did they have an episode where Gomer got his new liver? 


Glen

    
    >did they have an episode where Gomer got his new liver?
    
    It was some kind of group thing where the marines invaded giligan's
    island and gomer found this bottle and this scantily gladded women gave
    him a liver.
    
    Either that, or some guy named Jim was given a liver so he can go back
    and sing in 'Vagas.  'course he wasn't bumped up or nothin' it's just
    that he was lucky they found one fairly quickly.
    
    I think the first is more plausible.
    
    	Skip

	Skip, what state/country is Vagas in?

    
    I'm not sure.  It's to the west of springfield, that's all I know.

 I think Jim Nabors got his new liver a couple years ago.





 Jim

    
    >I think Jim Nabors got his new liver a couple years ago.
                                                                   
    Well on Paul Harvey (yea, I know, great source) today, he mentioned how
    Jim Nabors was recovering from his liver transplant and should be
    back performing in a few months.
    
    Of course, he never said when the transplant took place, or how long
    he waited (or if this was the second one).
    
    	Skip

    Nabors did his usual stint singing "Back Home in Indiana" before the
    race in May.

This is priceless -

This afternoon around 4 while I was driving around in my automobile
I had the radio tuned to WRKO in Boston. Andy M<something> had a
talk show with a topic of "What have you copped from the office?"

He had a caller, Steve, who told that his brother, who was an orderly
in the Pathology Dept. at the Texas hospital where Mickey Mantle's
liver was transplanted, had, in his possession, with appropriate
documentation, Mickey's old liver in a jar of formaldehyde/preservative.

They decided to try to find out how much the dead liver might be worth
as "memorabilia". They contacted a sports memorabilia dealership in
the Boston area and spoke with the manager who claimed he'd been in
touch with the appropriate auction houses. He said that the "street value"
for the jar in question could be somewhere between $5k and $10K, but,
that if Mickey would be willing to sign the jar, the price would increase
almost exponentially.

    Better Mickey should add a signed & canceled Liver Donor Card to the
    bottle.  That should increase the price googolplextually.
    

    re: -2
    
    
    The mere thought that someone would buy MM's liver, much less pay
    kilo-bucks for it, simply amazes me.
    
    
    -steve

Well, the 3-piece white polyester suit that John Travolta wore in Saturday
Night Fever just sold for something like $135K.  The seller (Siskel or Ebert,
I forget which) had paid $2K at a charity auction.

    .233
    
    Obviously, it's a sign of the complete and utter moral turpitude into
    which our godless society has sunk.

    
    Yeah Dick....
    
    Ain't it GREAT ! ! ! 
    
    :-)
    Dan
    

    
    How much is Joe Moakley's liver getting?

    
>    How much is Joe Moakley's liver getting?


 how many homeruns did he hit?

    re: .235
    
    Now you're catching on...

	I don't see what it has to do with "moral turpitude".  Yeah, that's
	a catchy phrase and it's fun to get to use words like that and all.
	But buying the liver of a famous person seems idiotic, not particularly
	immoral to moi.

    Idiotic does come to mind, it does.

    .240
    
    Get your irony detector adjusted.

      .242  the sad thing is, i could picture you saying that and
	    meaning it, with no problem!  ;>  sorry i couldn't tell
	    you were kidding.

    .243
    
    You could picture me saying that and meaning it?  Me?  ME???  In a
    response to "Godless Society" Leech?  Hello?  Is this the party to whom
    I am speaking?
    
    :-)

    
>>    You could picture me saying that and meaning it?  Me?  ME???  Hello? 
>>    Is this the party to whom I am speaking?

	yeah, i just swapped out there for a few minutes, i guess. ;>

    .246
    
    Ackshully, I had figured that, unlike your noble self, the Lady Di
    would know me well enough to pick up on the irony.  

   .247  er, oh never mind.  too funny.

I'd soitenly pay 5-10K to have liver o' Mantle on my mantle.
If I were a football fan, I'd want rocks o' Rockne.  Now _there_ was a man
who knew the right way to spell Knute.  Not like this namby-pamby in Warshinton.

What about Barbara Bush?

	i'd hold out for de gaulle bladder myself.

    
    Omigawd, you guys are too funny.
    
    

    No, they're not.

    re: .244
    
    Me thinks he protests too much.  8^)

 Sounds like the Mick is roundin' third and heading for home.





 :-(

 
 Jim

    
    
    Yep... doesn't look good..
    
     Well, at least I can say I saw him play... 
    

Mantle 'in big trouble,' doctor says

By David Flick
Dallas Morning News

DALLAS -- The cancer in Mickey Mantle's liver and right lung has spread,
dealing the Baseball Hall of Famer a significant setback in his fight
against the disease, Baylor University Medical Center officials said
Wednesday.

Mantle's condition was downgraded from stable to serious, and relatives
were at his bedside, hospital spokeswoman Denise Kile Walton said.

"While his immediate family is there, some of his extended family have
started to come in, too, since they heard the news,'' she said.

Walton and other hospital officials declined to discuss the case in detail,
citing Mantle's wish for privacy.

``As of today, he's resting comfortably,'' she said. ``He's joking around a
little bit, and he wants friends to know he will continue to fight.''

On Aug. 1, Mantle and his doctors disclosed that five weeks after he
received a liver transplant, his cancer had spread to his right lung.

Walton said that Mantle, 63, has been in the hospital since Friday, when he
returned for routine tests. At that time, he was found to be anemic, and
doctors suspected that the condition was a result of chemotherapy. He was
kept in the hospital over the weekend for observation and blood
transfusions, she said.

When the transfusions did not clear up the anemia, Walton said, Mantle was
given a CAT scan Monday. Test results examined later that day showed that
the cancer had spread.

Dr. Isaac Djerassi, a research oncologist at Mercy Catholic Medical Center,
flew to Dallas from Philadelphia last week to examine Mantle. He said he
agreed not to discuss specifics of the case.

``But this particular cancer can go anywhere ... usually the lungs, the
abdomen and sometimes the big bones,'' he said Wednesday. ``It just makes
it clear that he's in big trouble. It's not important where it is.''

Dr. Adi Gazdar, a pathology professor at the University of Texas
Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, said the brain, lymph nodes and
adrenal glands also are common locations when cancer spreads from the
lungs.

The new location of the cancer is less important than the fact that the
disease is continuing to spread, Gazdar said.

``The fact that it went beyond the lungs is bad enough,'' he said. ``The
fact that it's gone beyond that, the only importance is that the medicine
didn't hold it in check.''

Mantle's doctors originally gave him an 85 percent chance to survive one
year after the June 8 liver transplant. Doctors revised those odds downward
after further tests last month found the cancer had spread to his lung.

Mantle first checked into Baylor on May 28, complaining of abdominal pains.
About a week later, doctors found cancer in his liver already damaged by
hepatitis C and cirrhosis.

Doctors said that had they known the cancer had spread to his lung, Mantle
would have been ineligible for the transplant.

They had expressed hope that they had caught the liver malignancy in time
and removed all of it during the transplant. But they discovered July 14
during routine tests that the aggressive form of cancer had spread to his
lungs either shortly before or after the transplant.

Other than his Aug. 1 taped television announcement about the cancer
spreading, Mantle has not spoken publicly since a July 11 news conference.
At the time, he told fans, ``Here's a role model: Don't be like me.'' He
also pledged to promote organ donation and to discourage young people from
abusing alcohol and drugs.

He appeared gaunt and frail at the time, although he displayed his
characteristic sharp wit.

Mantle replaced Joe DiMaggio as the New York Yankees center fielder in 1951
and hit 536 home runs in a career that ended in 1968. The native of
Commerce, Okla., was the American League's Most Valuable Player three
times, was named to 16 All-Star teams and hit 18 World Series home runs.

He was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1974 along with one of
his best friends, former Yankee teammate Whitey Ford.

Mantle's career was sidetracked by many injuries. Doctors have speculated
that he contracted hepatitis from blood transfusions he received during
surgeries he underwent while playing.

After retiring, he returned to the North Dallas home he bought in 1957, one
year after becoming the first man to win the triple crown since Ted
Williams did it in 1947.

    
    so they knew he had cancer before they gave him the transplant?

    
    No... 
    

	I'm not up on cancer diagnostics, but from the news yesterday,
	it appears that the liver cancer had indeed metastasized.  Before
	his transplant, his doctors claimed it had not.

	It would seem to me that if it's currently as bad as reported, they
	would not have detected it before the transplant.

	Karen

    


>     Well, at least I can say I saw him play... 
 

  Yep, me too.  I was a kid living in Calif and we took a vacation to NYC..my
  step mother's father took us to a couple games at Yankee Stadium during the
  61 season when Mantle and Maris were playing home run derby.





 Jim   

    
    sigh.... I missed going that year...
    
    Saw him a few years later during a double header with the Washington
    Senators (I know.. I know... showing my age)...
    
     He went Ofer in the first game and came back with 2 homers, 2 doubles
    and a single in the second game to destroy them. The second home run
    was a massive shot into the center field bleachers... At the time, that
    wall was still about 30 feet high (@ 460 ft.) and the ball landed about
    40 rows back in the bleachers...

	sheesh, you guys are old!

	(I weren't even born in '61 !)

    YES YOU WERE!!!!  Well maybe early 1962 BUT I KNOW YOU'RE 34!

    
    Jack,
    
     That's not very polite.. revealing a lady's age. I happen to know
    mz_deb's age, but would never deign to reveal it...
    
    Andy
    

    
    RE: .267
    
     Oh, BTW Karen...
    
    
    
    
    
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	My dear boy Jack, did you forget your medication today ?

	I may look old (and pregnant, if you ask some), but I can
	assure you, I am younger than 34.

    Prove it!

    There was a doctor on TV discussing transplants in general, and he
    said many of the drugs that are necessary to prevent organ rejection
    probably are speeding up the spread of the cancer. On ther other hand,
    aggressive chemo protocols that could really knock down the cancer
    spread would no doubt destroy the new liver.
    
    Look's like Mickey is between the proverbial rock and the hard spot.
    
    

    
    <----------
    
    From the movie Braveheart:
    
    "The Lord says He can get me outta this, 
         but He thinks you're pretty much fooked"
    
    :-)
    Dan
    

    
    Mickey Mantle passed away yesterday morning from
    fast spreading cancer.

    
    
    Hope you didn't have to slide into home, Mick...
    
    
    

To The Kid: Rest Peacefully

(from a tomboy who spoke your name with 
reverence many years ago)

Best quote I heard today....

" If I'd known I was gonna live this long, I woudda taken
better care of this body"

		The Mickster

Naaa.  Far better was the one about not being allowed to stay in heaven,
but while there could he sign some baseballs...

    Did I hear correctly that he is the only male member of his family for
    several generations to live past the age of 41?  This would explain the
    comment in .278.
    
    Bob

    It must have been pretty hard for someone like Mickey, always
    accustomed to being admired and looked up to by fans and kids,
    to say "Don't be like me" to the world.  What a devastating
    blow to one's sense of self-image.  That took amazing courage.
    
    Chris

    Bob Costas delivered the eulogy at the public ceremony for the Mick. 
    He said that Mickey had finally learned the difference between being a
    role model, which much of the time he wasn't, and a hero, which he will
    always be.  Said he got something far more important than mindless,
    worthless adulation out of life, said in the end he got love.
    
    Treacly, yeah, but probably pretty accurate.

    Costas did a great eulogy; at one point he mentioned Billy Crystal
    who was in attendance.  He said Billy loved Mickey so much he went
    through his entire bar mitzvah using an Oklahoma accent :-)