Conference back40::soapbox

    Tie her up and throw her in a well.  If she floats, she's a witch and
    you take her out and burn her.  If she sinks, she wasn't a witch.

    
    try not to date/marry one. HTH

RE: 387.1 by SMURF::BINDER "Father, Son, and Holy Spigot"

> If she sinks, she wasn't a witch.

What was she?

    What are witches made of?
    
    Wood.
    
    Good. And what does wood do?
    
    It floats.
    
    Good. What else floats?
    
    Er, um, A duck.
    
    Good, so if someone weighs the same as a duck they must
    be made of...
    
    Wood!
    
    Good. And if they're made of wood, they're a...
    
    A witch!
    
    -b

RE: 387.2 by POBOX::BATTIS "Land shark,pool shark"

Why not?

    
    
    .4
    
    monty python, right????  i actually remember that one!!!
    
    

    .6
    
    Correct !

    I went on a tour of the Salem Witch museum in Salem Mass.  Wasn't there
    actually a conspiracy over the witch trials?  Something about all the
    supposed witches happened to be from the same part of the city and
    there was a supposed land dispute?
    
    -Jack

    
    alleged

    The Salem witch trials did not happen in Salem.  They happened in Salem
    Village, which is now Danvers.

    
    387.5
    
    << Why not?
    
    well Phil, I wasn't speaking in the actual sense of the word, just
    the venacular.

    re .0
    
    depends on what your relationship to the witch is.
    
    if you are married to him or her or just  tight friends, you should be
    able to figure it out on your own.  if you can't go back to sex ed in
    school.
    
    If you're not, well ...... whatever you would do to any other human.
    
    meg
    

    Was this intended as a serious "witch note" btw?

    Because if it is, I could point you to all kinds of interesting
    discussion on whether modern witchcraft (most notably Wicca)
    is just an offshoot of feminism (evidence indicates that it
    most certainly is), and that the sources of most Wiccan dogma
    can be traced no further back than Gardner, despite claims
    that it is a religion older than any other...

    -b

    
    I know, take her to a Halloween party!

    
    Bedevere:	What also floats in water?
    
    Villagers:	Bread!
    
    		Apples!
    
    		Uh...very small rocks!

    Just refer them to the Nationalal Association of Gals...Lead by
    Patricia Ireland.
    
    -Jack

    
    "She turned me into a newt."
    
    "You don't look very much like a newt."
    
    "I got better."
    
    
    Not that I'd want to be responsible for turning
    ANYbody into a "Newt."  That would be *really* awful......
    
    :-)
    
    Mary-Michael

    
    
    	"THEY dressed me up like this! Why, this isn't even my nose!"
    
    	"Well, maybe we did the nose.....err...and the hat...."
    
    	"But she's still a witch!"
    
    	"BURN HER!!"

RE: 387.12 by CSC32::M_EVANS "proud counter-culture McGovernik"

387.2 claims that one should never marry a witch.  Is that good advice,  or
not?  Or more just personal taste?


Phil

	If you can't marry a witch, can you at least date one? I hear sex with
one is simply magic.... :-)

    "And what do you do with a witch?"
    
    "BURN EM!"
    
    "What else do you burn?"
    
    "MORE WITCHES!!"
    
    -----------------------------
    
    "Why do witches burn?"
    
    "...because...they're made of wood?"
    
    "So how do you tell if she's made of wood?"
    
    "Build a bridge out of her!"
    
    [or something to that effect  8^)]
    
    
    
    -steve    

    I like Monty Python as much as the next person.  Of course the subtext
    in the joke is to laugh at the ignorant peasants.
    
    The part that isn't funny is that, led by the church leaders of the
    middle ages, hundreds of thousands if not millions of women were indeed
    tortured until they confessed, then burnt to death.
    
    What do you do with a witch?  You treat them like a human being.
    
    DougO

>    The part that isn't funny is that, led by the church leaders of the
>    middle ages, hundreds of thousands if not millions of women were indeed
>    tortured until they confessed, then burnt to death.

Could you give a source to support those numbers?

    I've done research on the question before.  I have a large packet of
    essays.  The box has seen them many times.  You want it in email?
    
    DougO

Heavens, no.  It's just that "hundreds of thousands if not millions" sounds
like a goodly portion of the population of Europe in the middle ages.  What
percentage of the total female population of Europe do you claim was burned?

    Just the witches Gerald. Pay attention.

    I hear Debbie Allen is a witch.

    > It's just that "hundreds of thousands if not millions" sounds
    > like a goodly portion of the population of Europe in the middle ages.
    
    well, it did take them some 400 years.
    
    > What percentage of the total female population of Europe do you claim 
    > was burned?
                                                                                
    I didn't make such a claim.  It is exceedingly hard to estimate how
    many people were tortured and put to death, much less how many people
    were alive during the time period in the first place.  Figures
    estimating the numbers of those put to death vary enormously, and
    given the sparse records and continual wars in Europe over the time
    period which further destroyed records, its really impossible to know.
    Figures of scholars vary from scores of thousands to hundreds of
    thousands to several millions.  I myself think the middle numbers are
    likely closest to the truth; certainly the lower numbers can be
    verified from the fragmentary records.  But as a percentage of how many
    people were alive, a ratio of two difficult to estimate numbers?  No, I
    don't make any such claims to know.
    
    DougO

    
    I doubt there are records, fragmentary or otherwise, to support
    even the lowest number suggested, 40,000. (i.e., two scores of a 
    thousand each).
    
    I doubt there are records to support even 20,000 women tortured
    and then burned to death for witchcraft.
    
    Neither number strikes me as impossible, considering that the Middle
    Ages lasted about 1000 years, and we're talking about all of Europe.
    But I've never heard of this sort of documentation.

    I find it interesting that we are willing to take a topic
    labelled "witches" and fill it with jokes and stereotypes
    (which I am guilty of as well).  And yet, there are many
    women - good, holy, women who wear this mantle with pride,
    and do as many good works as any other religious brethren
    in it's name.  We do these women a disservice to ignore
    them.  What does this say about our ability to truely 
    judge a human being on the merits and skills they bring
    to the table, and not judge them by all the facile, descriptive
    words we have at our disposal instead?
    
    Mary-Michael

    re: .31
    
    or for that matter their spelling ability.  ;-) ;-)

       I dated a witch a few times !!!!  She showed me all kinds of
    neat tricks !!!
      
       anyone care to donate a loc of hair ???
    
    :^)
    

    Re: .30  You are joking...aren't you?

Serious question:
    Do present day "witches" (whom I assume to be members/followers of
    Wiccan beliefs) not recognize/understand/appreciate the difference
    between themselves and what most people stereotypically perceive
    as "witches" (i.e. the fairy tale/Wizard of Oz/Halloween/superhuman/
    paranormal variety)?
    The coincidence in name is perhaps unfortunate, but there usually
    is a pretty clear distinction in the minds of most folks, I would
    think.

    re: .34
    
    Absolutely not.
    
    re: .35
    
    The stereotypes and "bad press" results from a combination of lack of 
    understanding and appreciation of what witches do, and the damage done
    by Christian churches in earlier centuries (not being judgemental here,
    folks, it unfortunately happened).  Many witches were instrumental and
    much needed members of their communities and have helped people throughout
    history as midwives, hebalists and doctors.
    
    Mary-Michael

    >hebalists
    
     Anything like hedonists? ;>

re:.36, Mary-Michael

That's all well and good, but it didn't answer my question. Do not today's
witches recognize that when people say (as an example), "Wicked old witch",
the speaker is referring to the fictional stereotype rather than to the
actual "class" of people?

    re: .38
    
    To be honest, I'm not sure people even think about it.  They
    are so used to the Halloween pictures of green-skinned women
    with pointed noses and warts, wearing black pointy hats
    and flying around on brooms, that I'm almost positive they
    speak to the caricature.  However, the fact that the caricature
    IS prominent, and the derogatory remarks ARE used almost without
    thinking, says that there is little respect for the term, and
    even littler understanding of what it really means.  
    
    Mary-Michael
    

    it is probably why many of us use the term "pagan", instead of "witch"
    when referring to our religion, and belief system.  The problem is that
    pagan is a pretty generic term, and can include other religious and
    metaphysical belief systems than the Wiccan, Druidic, neo-pagan, and
    fam-trad traditions.  maybe pluralistic diests would be a better term?
    
    meg

    Re: .29
    
    >I doubt there are records, fragmentary or otherwise, to support
    >even the lowest number suggested
    
    It's possible.  The Church administration was literate in the Middle
    Ages, and those engaged in the eradication of evil would no doubt want
    to document their accomplishments for their superiors, where possible.

    > I doubt there are records to support even 20,000 women tortured
    > and then burned to death for witchcraft.
    
    You, I'll send the essays to.  No need to thank me, just read 'em.
    
    DougO

    Witches are cool!

    Is this the same Buck who claims he's a Christian?

    <--- That's a really nasty comment. How so?

    Christians are cool. Problem with that? Nope, didn't think so.

    Jews are cool. Problem with that? Nope, didn't think so.

    Moslems are cool. Problem with that? Again, no, right?

    Buddhists are cool. No problem, fine...

    Witches are cool. Uh oh. Biblically disapproved religion
    alert. Insults are now acceptable. Doesn't matter that
    some people consider Witchcraft a religion... they're
    evyl cause the Bible said so. Anything resembling valuing
    differences need not apply in their case.

    -b

    Everyone knows witches are cool
    
    Isn't there that remark about colder than a witches breast(sic)?
    
    Anyway, what is the matter with finding witches cool, just because we
    are king james translation dangerous?
    
    meg

    When one says they are Christian and then aligns themselves with a
    system that is not considered holy in the Bible [specifically
    catholicism], it was indeed a natural reaction of astonishment.
    
    

    Astonishment is uncool.

Aligns themselves??????

Apparently a myriad of previously unclear meanings exist for
this term, or clairvoyance is more rampant than one would
have been led to believe . . . .

    {Ned, nods head}

    nancy,
    
    I am confused.  Where did it say he aligns himself with witches. 
    Saying we are cool people doesn't mean he follows any of the
    metaphysical beliefs witches have, any more thhan my liking my friends
    strength in her faith means I find christianity to be a valid belief
    structure for me.
    
    meg

    
    Miles Davis is cool.
    

    
    RE: Natural reaction of astonishment
    
    Is atonishment a natural reaction for the brain dead?
    
    -b

    Samantha Stevens is cool.
    
    Dr. Bombay is not cool.

    Mr. Kravitz is cool.
    
    Gladys Kravitz is uncool.

    Dick Sargeant is cool.
    
    Dick York is uncool.

    Nick at Night says Dick York is cool and Sargeant is uncool!

| <<< Note 387.54 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Special Fan Club Baloney" >>>

| Dr. Bombay is not cool.

	He most certainly IS cool! And so wasn't Uncle Arther!

| <<< Note 387.44 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| Is this the same Buck who claims he's a Christian?

	Wow Nancy, this wasn't expected. People as a whole are cool. You then
put labels on them. In this case, witches. If you are one who does not follow
their beliefs, or who are against them, then it does not mean you can't think
that witches are cool. 

    Individuals can be cool regardless of their belief systems or
    lifestyles, but to use the term witches as in a congregational whole is
    another meaning entirely.
    
    Meg may be cool as an individual regardless of her pagan beliefs, but
    that doesn't make her "witch" status cool to me... but her specific
    nuances, intellect, etc., may be way cool.
    
    Nancy

>    that doesn't make her "witch" status cool to me...

BFD.

    Nanc,
    
    SORRY if I hold the opinion that Witches (and those who practice in
    the pagan religion) are "cool".  Not that I *endorse* those beliefs
    _or_ that lifestyle, but I *happen* to hold a "live n let live" 
    attitude towards life in general.
    
    I have many friends in life -- some are Jewish, some are Buddist, some
    are Satanists (!!), some are pagans, some worship Jesus as Lord  and
    some don't believe in anything at all!  While some feel it's their
    "Christian" duty to convert all the unbelievers, I simply choose to
    accept them for who they are -- *good* people (I don't have time for
    empty people in my life, thank you).  Unlike others, I personally don't
    wish to make WHAT they believe in an issue, or a requirement for my
    friendship.  
    
    Honesty and trust are all I look for in an individual.

    .62
    
    Why apologize?  You aren't being condemned for your position, I just
    expressed astonishment.
    
    I happen to have friends from all walks of life as well, my beliefs
    don't inhibit my ability to relate to all kinds of people.  What I have
    a very difficult time with is the hypocrisy from folks who like to
    elevate themselves above Christians who have character enough to stand
    for what they believe.  At the same time they are spouting valuing
    differences, they enter a reply that is absolute rabid towards a
    Christian directly or towards Christianity as a whole.
    
    If one wants to spout the Valuing Differences policy as a defense, one
    should check their own back yards, Mr. BFD.
    
    Nancy

    Meg is a witch?

    Nancy,
    
    I was the one who brought up the valuing differences. It's
    a shame you lack the courage to refer to me by name if you
    have a quarrel with me. Of course, in your eyes, my name
    is probably Satan, so I can understand your reluctance to
    show any backbone.

    In truth, you know nothing of me, and I know nothing of you.
    What I do know is that you have consistently managed to
    offend, not only myself, but others (who have communicated
    with me via e-mail) in this medium.

    Any attempt to reason with you and explain why you are
    offensive has consistently failed. You always try to
    reflect back on us as those who are picking on you and
    trying to denigrate your Christianity.

    When one is confronted with such profound density, it is
    often easier to dismiss the offender. But I will make this
    last attempt: by no means do I find your Christianity
    offensive. By no means do I find the saving grace of
    Jesus Christ offensive. By no means do I find extending
    the gentle hand of the Gospel offensive.

    What I _do_ find offensive is the attitude that the fact
    one is saved by the blood of Christ means that they can
    crap on everyone and everything in sight that is not.

    And it not just you Nancy, who I am saying this to. It
    is all those who mistake the shield of Christ for a club.

    -b

    .65
    
    I think you are incorrect your assumption of *me*, but I admit to
    looking into the mirror through my very own eyes. :-)
    
    I've learned a lot in the box and in other conferences and have
    apologized to those whom I've been in direct conflict with where I felt
    I was wrong.  A person can do more than this.
    

    My apologies to Mr. BFD for thinking he was the VD author.

>    Meg is a witch?

Does she have crooked teeth, a big wart on her nose, scraggly hair,
a droopy eye, coooooooooooold whatchamcallits, and drive the latest
model sweeper?

    Why do you continue to engage in ugly and defamatory stereotypes, John?
    
    Do you imagine it is amusing?
    
    DougO

    I don't see why we have so much fuss over Nancy thinking witches are
    not cool.  "Not cool" is not an insult.  It's a rating on the scale of
    hipness, which is a monstrously silly concept to begin with.
    
    Now, if she had said that witches were evil personified, then you could
    reasonably get upset.

    Brian, you're overreacting.

Not so sure that he was, Glenn.

>    My apologies to Mr. BFD for thinking he was the VD author.

Oh, rest assured, no apology necessary. I ain't had VD in ages.

    hey, remember Kim Novak in Bells, Book, and Candle?
    
    Yeeeeyooooowwwwzaaaa!
    
    Chip

 Kim Novak in anything was OK by me.

    >Kim Novak in anything was OK by me.
    
     Kim Novak not in anything was OK by me.
    
    ric

    
    >>Does she have crooked teeth, a big wart on her nose, scraggly hair,
    >>a droopy eye, coooooooooooold whatchamcallits, and drive the latest
    >>model sweeper?
     
    Orthodontia took care of the crooked teeth for the most part 24 years
    ago, no warts, and extremely curly hair that hasn't been cut for over
    20 years, but has found its own length without assistance.  Eyes only
    drrop after 13 hours in front of the tube, and Frank says my um
    whatchamicallits are quite warm, thankyou.  the kirby is 40 years old,
    but we like classics.
    
    I do live celebrating the love of the goddess and her consort and the
    never ending cycle of life, celebrate solar and lunar holidays, drink
    strange, exotic fluids, and run around in the wuids sometimes.
    
    Yes indeed, though I am a witch and there are certain people I would
    gladly turn into toads, but why be redundant?
    
    meg

    
    "We have found a witch, may we burn her?"
    

    -1 i'd rather get three wishes (oops, that's a genie)  :-)
    
       Chip

    
    
    I'm curious Meg...
    
    Besides all those things you like (and do) and the fact that you CALL
    yourself a witch...
    
     What actually makes you one?
    
     Were you anointed? Blessed? Promoted? Demoted? What?
    

    -1 ya, witch was it?
    
       Chip

RE: 387.76 by CSC32::M_EVANS "proud counter-culture McGovernik"

> and Frank says my um whatchamicallits are quite warm, thankyou.

I'd like to ah thank Frank for checking this ah item ah out for us.


> Yes indeed, though I am a witch and there are certain people I would
> gladly turn into toads, but why be redundant?

If I ever make this list,  can you please tell me before acting on the
urge?


Phil

    By the Traditions of Columbine Circle, I am a witch and also involved
    clerically.  I am sorry, but I can't/won't discuss  what makes one a
    witch outside of the circle.  
    
    However, you can rest assured, it doesn't involve sacrificing a goat,
    chicken, child or other living item, swearing an oath before the
    cristians darker diety, or drinking anything which contains animal or
    human blood products in it, unlike some other religious traditions
    which aren't pagan.  
    
    About the only objects I work spells on are computers, and networks.  
    
    meg

    
    
    Oh... then it's sorta like the Masons, Oddfellows, Elks kinda stuff...
    
    
     Thanks...
    

    re; being involved clerically... does that mean you wear a collar?
    
    Chip

    More like a green robe.
    
    Being a green witch, you know.
    
    meg

>>    Being a green witch, you know.

	we'll have to watch out for you when it's green witch mean time!

 Thud

    
    er meg, clerically speaking, does this mean one of your witchly duties
    include typing, filing, memos etc.........??? Inquiring minds and
    all.
    
    Mark

    Yeah, you've got an Enquirer kind of mind, all right.

    so Meg, bein' green and all you're probably very friendly...
    
    environmentally speaking of course
    
    Chip :-) 

    
    er chels, that was umm pretty good.

    
    Speaking of environmentally friendly, I hope everyone who has an Earth
    Day table in their cafeteria today is admiring all my hard work.

    Deb,
    
    I will try to get down and look ours over if I can get the ball and
    chain attached to my ankle loose for a few minutes.
    
    meg

    Canadians aren't celebrating effing earth day. 8-\

	.92
	
	The material on the Earth Day table is very impressive!!
	But why does the sign not say "Effing Earth Day" ???
	(Personally, I'd rather see an Earth Effing Day ;-)

 Gee, I forgot to see if we have one

> Gee, I forgot to see if we have one

	there's no need to feel guilty...  ;>

 ;-)

I wish I could remember the dialogue from Blackadder's `Witchsmeller
General' episode!  :)

Chris.

    I put mine back, recycled it so to speak after reading the content
    and not finding credit where credit was due.  
    	
    Brian

| <<< Note 387.61 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

| >    that doesn't make her "witch" status cool to me...

| BFD.

	Jack.... I never thought that would come from you! :-)

I'm just full of surprises, Glen.