Conference napalm::heavy_metal

    
    	I think this already exists...  FOUNDERS OF METAL or something
    like that..
    
    BK
    

    
    
    
                    BLUE CHEER started it all!!!
    
    Chris D.

    
    I vote for it started somewhere in the Bronze age when they fianlly
    had metal.  Whether bronze is heavy or not I don't know.
    
    Just joshin 
    
    Kat

    
    
    What the heck is BLUE CHEER?  Or is someone just pulling my chain?
    
    Well if its already in notes somewhere, can someone delete it -
    cause I don't have the knowhow...
    
    Unless you want to restart it..
    
    F.

    
    
    I like Hendrix, myself.  Not only was he good looking... but...
    
    Getting serious here.
    
    Songs like "Foxey Lady"  show alot of heavy metal promise.  Who
    else during that time could come up with something like that? 
    Something even close?
    
    Even if you listen to it today, it puts up a lot of competition
    to other so called heavy metal bands.  IMO.
    
    Hendrix is the balls.

    
    
    RE: pete
             
    
                    Yes lets not forget + BLACK SABBATH +
                                        :               :
                                                         
    General Tama, devoted Sabbath fan

    Well, for me HM started with Van Halen.   
    
    
    the devil dog who lives his life like there's no tomorrow.

    
    	I think it started with the FLINTSTONES... ya know the band..
    the dude on turtle drums.. the bass was a stork... the git's were
    smaller birds.. the mic's were sea shells.... yea man that's
    it...that's where it all started.
    
    BK
    

    I think metal started with Sabbath, Priest, Maiden, Hendrix, Zepp...
    
    Just to name a few...
    
    jc

    
    re .10 Yo wise-one, did you mis understand me?
    
    
>        Well, for me HM started with Van Halen.   

 
    I think they key word is "me". As in as far as what started my fondness
    for Heavy Metal. Next time why don't you make sure you know what
    the hell you are replying to.
    
    the devil dog who nobody understands

    Well Francine this makes 14 replies.
    
    But to me Black Sabbeth had the most influence on modern Heavy Metal.
    
    Bonzo.

    Ain't it always the same, eh Devil Dawg. Nobody understands a word
    that a guy sayz.(unless ofcourse they are on the cr@p blasters)
    
    ;')
    
    Bonzo.

    
    I would have to say with sabbath it was the Album "Sabbatage". However
    off hand I can not really say for sure where hm originated. I would
    have to say the group Iron Butterfly....1962 0r 1963....
    
    
    Sax
    
    
    

    
    
    Then again, if you want to go way, way back, I would say people
    like Buddy Holly (my fav. and way ahead of his time), Chuck Berry,
    Little Richard, etc.  who were the harder rock of there time.  Back
    then when it was all rock and roll and thats it, people probably
    argued saying things like, Chuck Berry is real rock and roll while
    someone else said no, the Dave Clark 5 is or Diana Ross.
    
    I know whos side I would have been on...
    
    Does this make any sense?  It prob. has nothing to do with HM....
    
    oh well

    
    RE: Sax
    
    Yes Iron Butterfly was one of the earlier Groups
    But for Sabbath There first Album BLACK SABBATH 
    was heavy,Ya ever hear the Black Sabbath song or
    children of the grave.
    
    Tama

    
    
    RE. Summertime Blues
    
      Blue Cheer did record a version of Summertime Blues but the
    original was written and recorded by Eddie Cochren. Just for
    the record.
                mike
    

    
    
    Children of the Grave
    
    f*cking ballsy tune!!!

    re: tama
    
     Yes, I have all Sabbath Albums, between me and my Bro. Have you
    heard of the Album Sabbatage ? I think Sabbatage was thier first
    album....didn't" black sabbath" come after "never say die".

                                   
    Actualy , I would have to refer back to the dates on the albums.
    
      what do you think ?
    
    
    
    SAX
    

    Yo Sax your way off base on that point!
    
    1) Black Sabbath
    2) Paranoid
    3) Sabbotage
    4) Volume 4
    5) Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
    6) We Sold Our Souls for R&R
    7) etc
    
    I may be wrong about Sabbotage but I'm 99% Certain on the rest.
    
    
    Bonzo.
    

    
    
    Any one in this note conf. ever hear of IRON BUTTERFLY ?
    
    
    RE: Francine
    
      Yes, now you are off your rocker....buddy holly would roll over
    and start masterbating in his grave if he heard you say he was
     heavy metal !
     
      But, you have a point and you are right ,  there music was heavy
    for the 1950's early 60's . Long live Rock'N"Roll !!!!!!
    
    
    Sax
    

                               RE: Bonzo
    
    
     Paranoid came out in 1975, dude. I'll check the album Sabbatage
    and give the date to you ...okay.
    
    
    Sax
    

    Francine, Buddy Holly would not roll over and (what he said) if
    you called him HM, he would, however wonder WTF you were talking
    about.

    I remember hearing this one dude, who was out in the 1940's, some
    blues singer, an old white guy who played some tunes that would
    rattle Ozzy's cage.  I can't remember his name, but my bro Lefty
    (Rick) has the tape.  Wild man!  Screamin' and bangin on the git.
    
    Scared the hell of out me!  (^;
    
    HITMAN
    
    To me, Helter Skelter is the first H_M tune...

    Heaven and Hell came out in 1979, and The Mob Rules came out in
    80-81.  Also, Never say dies was Ozzy's last BS effort.
    
    Buck, who doesn't know too many sab facts, but is sure about the
    above

    Ok here it is.......I didnt wanna waite and go threw my tapes
    
             <<< IRDEV::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HEAVY_METAL.NOTE;2 >>>
                 -< Heavy_Metal - Discussion and deliberation >-
================================================================================
Note 38.11                      + BLACK SABBATH +                       11 of 20
ROCKON::RADLER                                       30 lines  18-MAY-1988 15:34
                          -< Can anyone add to this? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
     -1, I'll try to keep them in order of release.
                  w/Ozzy
           1)Black Sabbath
           2)Paranoid
           3)Master of Reality
           4)Volume 4
           5)Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
           6)Sabotage
           7)Technical Ectasy
           8)Never Say Die
           9)We sold our souls for rock and roll(Greatest hits)
          10)Live at Last (Not on Warner Bros.)
           
           Then there are a bunch of Compilations like Attention Black
          Sabbath and greatests hits vol 1 
    
               w/Dio
           11)Heaven and Hell
           12)Mob Rules
           13)Live Evil
    
               w/Gillan
           14)Born Again
    
               Tony Iommi Band called Black Sabbath
           15)Seventh Star
           16)Eternal Idol
                                
                                    Rich

    
    My uncle had an Iron Butterfly tape.  I thought that was kinda
    psycadelic rock.  Isn't that What its called?
    When did Helter Skelter come out?  I have it on the White Album
    but don't know the date of its release.
    I think that was pretty heavy.
    
    Kat

    
    
    re. whoever.
    
    I didn't say Buddy Holly was heavy metal.
    
    Give me a break, he's one of my fav. dudes, and I think I can tell
    the difference between Buddy and Metallica.
    
    I may be dumb, but not that dumb!

    re.35
    
    the white album came out on oct.1968
    
    iron butterfly did inagatadivita didn't they?
    i hate that song!
    
    butchika

    Classic tune though...
    
    Makes me wanna do some blotto and take a vaca !
    
    ;^)

    I may not know when HM began but it gots its name in 1968 from
    Steppenwolfe's (sp) song "Born to be wild".

    re: Francine  
    
    I haven't read all the reply's yet so someone may have come up with
    it already.  Did you ever see the movie TROLL (or Trolls)?  There
    is a seen where the father is doing a dance/air mike/air guitar
    bit to Summertime Blues by Blue Cheer.  The ONLY way to listen to
    Blue Cheer is full volume - because they recorded it that way!
    
    Chris D. who_watched_it_develope. 

    RE: .39
    
    	There are some who say HM got it's name from the 1959 book by
    William Burroughs entitled, "Naked Lunch" (or maybe Steppenwolf
    took Heavy Metal from the book...).  Naked Lunch is a very bizarre
    book, read it if you dare!!  There is no doubt, however, that good
    ol' Steppenwolf took their name from the book, of the same name by
    German author Hermann Hesse (also an excellent piece of literature,
    for those who give a sh*t ;^)
    
    joe.

    I'm not really sure where HM was Born, but I feel that it's conception
    was with Chuck Berry.  He had one hell of a mean guitar.  From there
    the cells divided and mutated into today's Metal.  Priest's cover
    of Johnny B. Good, didn't really have to be changed too much (it
    actually seems slower than Chuck's).
    
    The Sentinel

    
    As quoted by Gene Simmons last night on the American Musice Awards:
    
    "Cream and The Who led the stage for the founders of Heavy Metal,
     Led Zeppelin".... just before he announced that Def Leppard had
     won, umm, Heavy Metal Album of the year..argh!!
    
    CJ
    (don't quote me word for word..)

    Uriah Heep, good stuff if I remember right..
               
    

    I hear ya !!! Magicians Birthday took me to all kinds of places,
    mentally that is.  I thought the live album was great too.  Thinking
    back on it, they are one of the few bands I like with keyboards
    doing more than just fills and misc. noises.
    
    
    				Scary

    	RE:a few back
    
    			Helter Skelter was the first HM song no doubt. The Who
    definitely did influence HM, but they are more of an RB band. I
    feel that Zep was more RB than HM, so was Hendrix, Sabbath and Deep
    Purple. As Sabbath and DP progressed they acquired a HM taste. Sabbath
    with the album Vol 4 and even more with Sabbath Bloody Sabbath.I
    think DP's first HM album was Fireball (Mach. Head was still R&B).
    Zep and Hendrix always seemed to lean more to R&B than HM (although it
    was  *heavy* R&B)
	
    			Only my opinion. I'm not putting any of the
    groups down, I'm just saying what I feel is right.
   
    				CB

    
    I'd like to plug a group here that goes wayyyyy back, but I always
    sort of thought should join all these "founders of heavy metal"
    groups....
    
               Slade
    
    Even their old old stuff was HM.  Did you know that this group has
    the record for longest running band *without a lineup change*. 
    Twenty-some-odd years with the same four blokes.  
    
SEAN/BEER=LABATTS

    RE: .49
    
    	The Who were more of an R&B band?  Deep Purple, LZ, R&B?  I
    disagree.  Rhythm and Blues music is like Wilson Pickett and sh*t
    like that.  The Who were a ROCK band.  And, like the song says,
    "...[The Who] were the first band to vomit in the bar, and find
    the distance to the stage too far."  Also, they were the first band
    to destroy their equipment onstage at the end of the night (kind
    of the climax, or release, of the tension built up through the music).
    Hendrix copped this from them (Hendrix, BTW, opened for The Who
    before he made it big enough to headline).  Pete Townsend wrote
    the first rock opera, "Tommy".  I just don't see how you can call
    songs like "Substitute" and "I Can See For Miles" R&B songs.  The
    chord progressions in most Who songs are not the traditional I-IV-V
    of R&B.
    
    Also, I like "Helter Skelter" and it was a very heavy song in its
    day, but more punk (IMO) than HM.  BTW, after attending a Who concert,
    Paul McCartney said, "I want to write a song that's heavier than
    even The Who can do".  Helter Skelter was the result of that effort.
    
    (just my $0.02)
    joe.

    
�                                               Pete Townsend wrote
�   the first rock opera, "Tommy". 
 
    The first popular one, maybe, but not the first.  That honor goes
    to the Kinks for their album "Arthur."  Most good rock anthologies
    even make a point of this.
    
SEAN/BEER=LABATTS

    
    
                   TED NUGENT AND THE AMBOY DUKES.

                  Journey To The Center Of The Mind 
    
    
    
    
    
                                DEEBS

    RE:-2 or 3
    
    		OK,OK,OK how is MAXIMUM R&B ? They even had a poster
    that advertised them as such. This is what I mean (maybe not what
    I said, but its what I mean)
		
    		But honestly the earlier stuff (of the bands formentioned)
    had heavy Blues "linings" shall we say. 
    
    		EX: Dazed & Confused (starts out R&B)
    		    Smoke On The Water (studio borders R&B,LIVE well
    thats another story)
    		    
    
    				CB
    
    17 year-old NEW-NUT : COME ALONG IF YOU CARE

    I think Joes contention is that soul music or whatever you want to call
    it is  generally referred to as R&B.  I think a term that he would use
    would be something more like "Blues based rock".  Personally, I see R&B
    differently than Blues too.
    
    gh

    Whoever put in the entry about The Kinks doing the first rock opera,
    thanks for the info.  I had never heard that and am a Kinks fan
    from way back.  On the other hand, I've never heard this "Arthur"
    thing.  When did it come out?  And is it still in print?  I'd like
    to get a copy of it.
    
    joe.

    I couldn't find a note on this, so sorry mods if it is a duplicate.
    
    I was wondering last night, who is the king of Heavy Metal?
    
    We all know Elvis is the king of Rock (although I tend to think Chuck
    Berry is).  
    
    Steppenwolf in "Born to be Wild" is credited with starting the term
    "Heavy Metal".  Were they the first Metal band?  If it was a product of
    the '70s, I tend to think Led Zepplin would be a good guess.
    
    Mike

    I personally think The Rite of Spring was the first *real* HM song
    written.  It's just so heavy!!

    
    In my opinion the first Heavy Metal band was Earth, renamed Black
    Sabbath in 1970 when they released their first lp.
    
    /prc

    I vote for Led Zeppelin!
    

    
    Led Zeppelin was no where near as heavy as Black Sabbath, period.
    
    /prc

    re:  the Cookster 
    
    Hey, I agree w/ you.  They are definitely 2 distinctly different bands.
    I am equally fond of both.......However I listen 2 more Zeppelin than 
    I do Sabbath.  But hey, I seriously don't think I could make the 
    decision as to who is the king of H_M is anyway........
    
    �|-'prilllllllll

    Sabbath ....
    
    
    
    
    		.... next question ....
    
    
    Scary

    
    Hey Jerry, we got to stop agreeing like this, we'll ruin our
    reputation! 8-)

    Let us not forget bands like AC/DC, Rush, Kiss.........
    Who am I forgetting?

    What about Hendrix?  I guess you'd need a late '60s group to beat
    Sabbath.
    
    Mike

    
    re: -1
    
    That the thing though, Sabbath was around in the late 60's under the
    name Earth, although they didn't have a record out.
    
    /prc

    
          What about Blue Cheer, Weren't they before Black Sabbath???

    
    re-1
    
            Way before your time, little prillllllllllllll.

    
    re: Blue Cheer
    
    They seemed along the vein of MC12 or whatever their name was.
    I.e. loud obnoxious rock n' roll. Maybe a predecessor to Punk?

    
    
      Blue Cheer were one  of  the first to use Marshall Stacks form
    
      Hell!!  Their music is along the same lines as Black Sabbath only
    
      sooner, like late 60s.

    Blue CHeer used to have wall-wall Marshall stacks, and I know  this guy
    who said he went to a show of theirs at the Fillmore West, and the band
    didn't play for two minutes and people were  running, screamingm and
    holding their ears out of the auditorium!

    Judas Priest was the first and last of the REAL metal bands.
    
    :)

    
    Black Sabbath did lay a big foundation for metal bands, but I don't
    feel they started it. Blue Cheer was way before BS. I saw them in the
    mid to late 60's time frame. I think it was the first concert I ever
    went to. They did alot to start the metal sound. They were the first
    power trio I can remember.
                                mike
    

    
    I agree that if you open a dictionary and look up Heavy Metal there is
    a picture of Judas Priest on the Screaming For Vengence tour.
    
    But that's not the question...
    
     Back in 1962 the was a guy by the name of Ted Nugent who was in a band
    called "The Amboy Dukes". Even though Teddy was a young man his guitar
    could blow the balls off a charging rino at sixtey paces,ya...
     Their first big hit was on their first album titled "Journeys and
    Migrations" The song was called "Journey To The Center Of The Mind".
    Nugent used to stage guitar battles onstage climaxed by feedback
    battles. He never lost a battle. At the start of their live shows,Ted
    would come out on stage dressed in a loincloth(which he wore again in
    1980/Scream Dream tour) and an indian headress carring a bow and arrow.
    He would then shoot a flaming human scull off the top of his amps. Then
    the party started.....
    
    
    Ted Nugent. The Motorcity Madman. The Detroit Wildman. Heavy Metal's
    first gonzo guitarist. Nugent was already in his second band when Black
    Sabbath/Earth was forming. And let's face it. Nugent's showmanship and
    his ability to turn a crowd of thousands into foaming_at_the_mouth 
    maniacs was what todays Metal is based on. There's no question that
    Ted Nugent was the founder of Heavy Metal.
    
    
                                   DEEBS
    
                                                      
    
    
                                 

    But are we just looking for the founder or for an acknowledged 'King'. 
    In my opinion (humble as it isnt) no single person can be the 'King of
    Metal' that should go to a band.  Blue Cheer, not a chance, I was
    around then and they were el-crappo.  Led Zep are heavy rock not metal.
    Deep Purple has possibilities but so do Judas Priest not to mention
    Uriah Heep.  Nope, the crown(s) can only be worn (logically) by Ozzy
    and crew and all further permutations of 'Black Sabbath'.  You can't be
    a HM band until you have done a BS cover! ((.
    
    
    GAZ

       I don't know if I would say BS is the king or not. The first thing I
    thought of was Mr. Hendrix. Of course with BS and Hendrix you have to
    ask yourself "Who influenced them?"
    						The KER
    

    Hey guys, after you figure out who really started heavy metal why don't
    you argue about what came first, the chicken or the egg.
    
    
    The first true heavy metal sounds musta been some caveman beating on a
    tree (or another caveman) with a club. 

    �  The first true heavy metal sounds musta been some caveman beating on a
    �  tree (or another caveman) with a club. 
    
    
    Yeah, and Motley Cr�e are still coverin' their numbers!!!!  8^)

    Er Jesse, I hate to argue semantics with you..buuut, aren't trees made
    of wood?  If so how would that be classified as heavy METAL?  (^8*
    
    A new sub-genre 'heavy-wood'  then you could have 'light kindling' and
    'soft shavings' perhaps (^8*.
    
    
    GAZ
    

    yeh, but the beat is what i wuz refering to. but to take on your
    argument mebbe it was a caveman hitting rocks(loaded with iron)
    together.

    
    	Aside from William S. Burroughs supposedly coining the word "heavy
    	metal" (as note .41 mentions) he seems to have influenced many bands.  
    	Was his works mostly of the bizzzare poetry sort?  Just curious.  I 
    	recently saw some band member, I forget who wearing a T-shirt with 
    	his name onit and it suprised me to again seem his name come up.  
    	
    	- Jim

>    	Aside from William S. Burroughs supposedly coining the word "heavy
>    	metal" (as note .41 mentions) he seems to have influenced many bands.  

I know that Steely Dan got their name from a Burroughs novel. 

>    	Was his works mostly of the bizzzare poetry sort?  Just curious.  I 
>    	recently saw some band member, I forget who wearing a T-shirt with 
>    	his name onit and it suprised me to again seem his name come up.  

I haven't read anything by him, but one of his most famous books, The Naked
Lunch, was just made into a movie that was released a couple weeks ago.

alan

There's a great section on William Burroughs attending a Led Zep concert in
Hammer of the Gods.  

Tim