Conference napalm::guitar

I agree for the most part.

I see it as a phase, like anything else.  It's been going on for 7 years or
so.

Beats '82-'87 :-)

adam

    yeah, the Seattle area does have quite the heroin problem.  Must be a
    prereq. for lousy tone.

    
    Guess I don't know what "alternate rock" is these days.  I like some of
    the STP "wall of noise" sound, kind of like the gain is so high that he
    has to constantly mute with the right hand to keep the feedback in
    check.  I also like some of the "Alice in Chains" stuff and Brother
    Caine. 
    
    It's certainly not the 16-rack-effect-in-one-box sound from the 80's.
    
    Kevin
    

For quite awhile, the entire rock genre has sounded so colorless
to me that I'm continually amazed that people bother to write and play it,
much less record it.  (Not really - there's money to be made, and it sounds
to me like that's by far the main motivation behind the music.)

Back around 1970 or so, I got the sinking feeling that I'd probably heard
everything that was going to be of much interest to me in this style, and other
than the Police, I've hardly heard anything that's caused me to doubt that
feeling in the meantime.

Seattle is just re-packaging.  The upcoming return to dance music is, too.

There was a time before rock, and hopefully, there will be a time after it.
I wonder what the next wild outburst of youthful creativity will be?  IMHO,
we're long overdue for one.

Paul

    The "Alternative" label gets applied to all kinds of stuff, from Bruce
    Cockburn and Shawn Colvin to Steve Earle to Jars of Clay...  I
    certainly wouldn't make any generalization about 'altnerative' tone.  
    It seems, though, that you are mainly focusing on grunge, and there 
    certainly is a common sound there.   For me, though, the whiney guitar 
    tone that is not half annoying as the whiney tone of the music in 
    general (as .0 implies in its title).  
    
    On the other hand, I personally have never longed "for the days of 
    Randy Rhoads and Tony MacAlpine," either.  To each his/her own.
    
    Jim  

    
       I see it as a signature problem. Can they actually play guitar and
    not just make noise? 20 years from now, listening to a recording of
    Jimi Hendrix, The Eagles, Mark Knopfler, Stevie Ray Vaughn....the first
    three seconds of any of their work is identifiable. But if a recording
    of any of this current alternative crap is played, everyone in the room
    will ask.."What the hell is that noise?"
    
    -john

    FWIW, I don't long for the days of the poof-haired finger-tappers
    either. It's just that they'd be a breath of fresh air compared
    to the current crop of teen heroes. Last week's Rolling Stone had
    some Seattle band on the cover and some blurb about "can the lead
    singer's self-destructive behavior be stopped before he kills himself 
    with drugs?" Deep inside I though "I sure hope not" :-)
    
    I wonder what guys like Vinnie Moore and MacAlpine are doing to put 
    food on the table these days; in another 7 or 10 years it'll be time 
    for the 'classical metal revival' and they'll be old fat guys touring 
    again. Aside from Dream Theater none of the 80's style prog-metal guys 
    gets any press anymore.

    Jars of Clay is considered alternative?  They seem folkish to me.  My
    oldest boy received their CD as a gift and I listen to it once in a
    while.  It isn't really what I would personally call alternative.

    I'm awaiting the 2nd coming of the original Van Halen sound.

    
    
    On the flip side, bands like the Bodines, the Gin Blossoms, Toad the
    Wet Sprocket (now, that's a name...)  have 
    wandered way over into the melodic side of rock, far from the Seattle
    grunge sound.  Acoustic guitars, smart vocals. Not bad! 
    
    Even Alice in Chains manages to remind me of early Jethro Tull every 
    now and again.
    
    Kevin
     
    

    
    	Van Halen's 2nd coming might very well happen when Cherone starts
    	recording with them.  He's got the potential to be the Roth-like
    	frontman that everybody seemed to love.
    

    Try listening to some country music.  Or try alternative country
    like Johnny Cash or George Jones. :)
    
    Later, 
    RJ

Just talkin about this with a good friend of mine this past
weekend...  The question was "what wast he last new (as in NEW
music) CD you bought ?"  For me it was probably Gin Blossom's-
"Congradulations, I'm sorry", or Maybe RUSH-"Test for Echo"..,,, 
All things considered though, there's just not much out
there that's appealing to me as I'm headed towards 40.

My son picked up the new Dave Mathews Band and that's got some
nice stuff on it..

but by large, I just can't seem to find myself interested in 
much new stuff  at all,, still find myself going through the 
archives, and looking for instrumental/soloist works,,,  I just 
think it's a pretty bleak time for new music, and not too many 
new players are catchin my ear, and I don't know what the hell 
is going on with bands Tool and Rage Against the Machine ???
--- Stop it, you're hurting me..

Have to admit, I have been listening to some country lately 
(more due to my current band project than any other reason) 
and some of the stuff is really rock and roll with some sugar
on it, but for the most part, these guys can kick ass, Garth
Brooks band is pretty tight, and I'm starting to like more
of Vince Gill than I though possible,, guy sings like an angel..

Oh well, what goes around comes around I suppose...

/pelkster

    I too have been into the NEW country scene for about a year, also
    mostly because of my band. Your right about it's roots. Alot of 
    todays artist were influenced by early rock and roll and not the
    traditional artist like Charlie pride, Ernest Tubbs, ect. I think 
    people tend to shy away from NEW country because they have a pre-
    conceived idea about the music. Give a listen to the guitar work
    in Diamond Rio's music, or the upbeat cut's Garth Brooks, Leroy 
    Parnell, Brooks and Dunn ect. There is alot good music out there
    under the New country lable.
    
                                                       Jim

    
    	Garth Brooks' "Ain't Goin' Down Til the Sun Comes Up" is possibly
    	1 of the best "new" country songs out there.
    
    	He does have some good stuff.
    
    	And if you like "poseur country", check out Travis Tritt.
    

It's pretty darn hard to hear any country music on the radio nowadays.
Certainly not on the so-called "country" stations.

And Garth is the Anti-Hank!  :-)

-Hal

We've been collecting a few tunes to do with the band
I'm in, and I have to admit, Garth's band kicks ass...

Country aint *country* anymore...

    Yeah,  well,  maybe these guys never geard of dynamics (-:. I kind of
    wish I didn't have ears as sensitive as I do because it seeems
    sensitive ears lead to expensive taste in equipment. And to
    specifically address your note,  I never could figure out why some
    people need distortion on top of distortion...some front end goosing
    using single coils makes sense but that's assuming too that the amp
    you're going into has sufficient clarity and head room...
    
    Guess I'm just getting old....
    
    
    
    Regards,
    Barry

not getting old, just getting older...

 And if it's too loud, that's you're too old....


 /Teknotronix/

    I guess I'm OK because I still have the lead guitar player's disease
    "What do you mean I'm too loud...I can't even hear myself!!!"
    
    Barry

    
     Alternative ... ha, ha .... Alternative is now Mainstream
    
       Lv

    re .-1
    
    agreed! I went to a school function for my daughter's sixth grade
    class a few weeks ago. 90% of the boys were wearing Korn or Rage
    Against the Machine t-shirts. If 11 year olds listen to it, it
    ain't alternative. 
    
    - old man (40 in a few months)

    	TOOL is Kool!!!

    Korn does rule!  Love that heavy sound.
    
    Same goes for Tool.

yoikes..  tried to listen to Tool, just can't get through
a tune with out it starting to hurt my senses.. but of
course, as I am pushin 40, I must be way too old for this.... 

    
    	I like the "Undertow" album better than "Aenima", Ray.  Check it
    	out, and you might prefer it.
    

    Kev, FWIW, I like the sound that the guys in Alie In Chains and STP get
    too...read an article in a recent rag about their rigs and it seems
    that these guys are all using high-end rack mounted goodies (boogie,
    marshall).  All glass, mind you, but with the high-tech front ends.
    
    On the other end of the spectrum, I STILL long for the ton of Angus
    Young (AC/DC)...Ya know, that 100wt marshall top with worn toobs?
    
    :-)

Anemia is the one my son has, I'll see if he's got the
other one..

    	Speaking of STP... who is that guitar player? For an "alternative"
    type of band, this guy seems miles above the other power-chord types
    out there. I've spun their latest disc quite a few times and some of
    the leads this guy comes up with sound very technical (there is this
    one tune that he rips off a wild jazz type of thing..). I think he may 
    be a lot more talented ( can we say that?) than one might think. May be 
    he sold his soul to Satan for devine wisdom........
    
    -kev_

    I just got through reading the replies in this note, and I can't
    believe the closed minds that are out there. I am a singer and a
    bassist for a cover band called Slaves of Rhythm. We have a couple of
    original songs, but not enough to even cut a small album. We play music
    like Pearl Jam, STP, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains. We played at a bar
    in Saugust, Mass. and it was a rough crowd at first. The place was
    packed with bikers, but at the end of the night we were offered two
    more gigs and I got a lot of compliments like, "I don't really listen
    to that music but you guys sounded pretty good". The biggest thing
    about this type of music is most of the bands have one guitarist so the
    wall of sound as it was refered to in previous replies is the only way
    to fill the void. As far as it being a bad tone well, it isn't easy to
    get that tone and when added to a solid rhythm section you get an
    atmosphere for the song. It is all in the way you see things and music
    is a personal interpretation. My Grandfather (who introduced me to my
    first instrument) said, "There is no bad music, just bad musicians." 
    IMO Bob Dylan is a good example of this.

    re: .33
    
    Congrats on the successful gig.  I hope the two follow-on gigs go well
    too.
    
    >The biggest thing about this type of music is most of the bands have
    >one guitarist so the wall of sound as it was refered to in previous
    >replies is the only way to fill the void. 
    
    I'd argue that it may be one way to fill the void, but far from the
    only.  There are numerous guitarists who can create quite a full sound
    all by themselves: Thumb style players like Chet Atkins, fingerstyle
    folks like Ed Gerhard, solo jazz players like Martin Taylor (or Joe
    Pass when he decided to go that route), not to mention any decent
    classical guitarist, without even needing a bass and drums.  And the 
    rock power trio certainly has plenty of precedents: Cream, Led Zep 
    (OK it was trio, but Plant only sings), etc.
    
    And if you are implying that Bob Dylan is a bad musician, you'd better 
    be careful of accusing others of being closed minded...
    
    Jim Allbery

Ohh,, another Dog fight is brewing....  I do have my
own feelings about Dylan, but I'll reserve those for
a later discussion..

and interestingly enough, some of the best crowds I've
worked for have driven on Harley's...

Anyway I digress,, I think the biggest eye opener I had
with this type of stuff, was when I joined a show band 
that does traditional country...

Nothing I used for the last 25/30 years was gonna work..
I had to go back to the drawing board.. You just can't
crank up the gain, and use all your rock licks/tricks and
stuff...

I did gain a whole new level of respect for the musicians
that play in the country bands...

http://www.webcom.com/~wutka/pichtml/grind3.html

re-1 teh-heh-heh-heh....

Next game to play is this:

Go into the Music conference and trash Jimmy Buffett....  
did this once, got a lot of milage out of it!

/pelksta..

    It's been kind of boring in here lately-- I'm trying to make things
    interesting...  db and I haven't even got into lately!
    
    Seriously though, I don't expect everyone to love Dylan.  His voice
    might be most kindly described as an acquired taste.  On the other
    hand, he has written a large number of great songs, is a very interesting
    interpreter of both his own material, as well as material of his
    musical predecessors (Woody Guthrie, et al), and is a better than
    you might think guitarist in playing what he does best -- traditional
    folk accompaniment, which requires a knowledge of traditional music
    and subtle use of musical references that I would contend is certainly 
    no less admirable than creating that (not Phil Spectre) "wall of 
    sound" alternative tone.
    
    I'm not trying to pick on a newcomer... really.  This conference needs
    more people.
    
    I just found it interesting that someone would accuse others of being
    closed minded for not appreciating a certain type of music, and then
    turn around and call the most influential proponent of the folk
    revival (and one of the most influential popular song writers of the 
    past four decades) a bad musician.
    
    I believe the same arguments used to defend the music in question
    (it's harder than you think; it's largely a matter of taste) can be
    applied to Mr. Dylan.  If the author of the "closed minded" note
    would like to explain his position, I'd love to hear it.
    
    Jim

see ... dog fight,, they're fun,,,

re: Dylan as an aquired taste!  Nice analogy...

Hey, I guess in his day, he was top dog, but for what
ever reason, he spoke to the demons a little more than
he should have and burnt himself out along the way...

Anyone else would have probably been dead,,....

    >Hey, I guess in his day, he was top dog, but for what
    >ever reason, he spoke to the demons a little more than
    >he should have and burnt himself out along the way...
    
    I don't think anyone would argue that he's not as strong today as he
    was in '63, but there are still occasions where he shines as
    brilliantly as ever.  The song "Shooting Star" off of Oh Mercy (1989),
    I think is as fine as song as he has ever written.  "Ring them Bells" 
    (off the same CD) is another really good song.  Joan Baez used it for 
    the title song of her recent CD that featured Joan live with a number 
    of female folk guest artists.  She does a great cover.  I found it 
    interesting that of the two Dylan songs she covered, one was classic 
    Dylan ("Don't Think Twice", performed with the Indigo Girls), and the 
    other was a relatively recent work.
    
    On the other hand, he's been known to babble almost incomprehensibly
    at times...
    
    Jim

    Alright, I left early yesterday so I couldn't reply. First of all you
    are taking my point too personally. I think that Dylan is one of the
    best song writers of his time, but you can't tell me that his talent
    lies in his performance. If you compare him to someone like Chet
    Atkins, you have to admit he has his own flair, but it is raw and
    sloppy (remember this is how it seemed that the tone of the guitar was
    refered to in earlier repies). My comparison is an analogy, maybe some
    personal feelings may have been added, but never the less I was making
    a simple comparison. (by the way I would rather hear Dylan sing
    Knocking on Heaven's door rather than Axl Rose, but that's not saying
    too much.) 

    
    Two things I've messed with recently that have absolutely zero to do 
    with the guitar and that I think I need:  the Roland 'Groovebox', and 
    the Emu "Orbit" sound module.  
    
    Both are WAY of the righteous.
    Kev --
    

    
    
    I don't mind the "wall of sound" sound at all, as in the likes of STP. 
    It's a processed version of the "can't take my hands off the neck or
    this baby is going to howl" sound.  Think Ted Nugent with his Gibson
    archtop with an even more over-the-top sound.
    
    I'm not a fan of processing because it can make it harder for the
    guitar to cut through the mix.  For example, too much delay and
    compression and you just fade into the backround.
    
    Wall of sound?  Hah, should have been around in the days of using a
    Fuzz box through an Ampeg SVT with 300 watts rms and 16 10's!
    
    8-)
    
    Kevin
      

    >First of all you are taking my point too personally.
    
    Actually, I probably read more into than you meant, but I didn't take
    it personally.  I have a great deal of respect for Dylan, but I don't
    often go out of my way to listen to any of his stuff.  I objected to
    calling others "closed minded" for disliking a genre of music, and then
    turning around and applying an absolute label of "bad musician" on
    a very influential performer.  BTW, I assumed you weren't applying the
    "closed minded" label to me-- my earlier response in this string was
    on the order of "alternative is a broad label, don't over generalize;
    I don't personally like the grunge stuff, but to each his/her own."
    
    >you can't tell me that his talent lies in his performance.
    
    I'm sure we agree that his greatest contribution is as a song writer.  
    I would argue, though, he has made a significant contribution as a
    performer as well.  His voice may have a quaility somewhat akin to
    fingernails on a chalkboard for many people, but there is talent in
    his interpretation and phrasing.  And in listening to the Biograph
    boxed set, I remember more than one occasion in which he played 
    something on acoustic guitar that really surprised me.  Remember,
    he built his initial following on his covers of songs of Woody Guthrie
    and other earlier musicians as his original material.  I guess that 
    means that some people found merit in his performance.  So I have
    a problem calling him a "bad" musician, particularly if the yardstick 
    used to measure "good" is Pearl Jam.   If the yardstick is Chet Atkins,
    then OK, he is a bad musician-- but so are the majority (if not all)
    of the members of the bands you like to cover.  I certainly doubt any
    of them, without ever really concentrating on playing classical guitar,
    would be able to come off credibly in a Segovia master class (as Chet
    did).
    
    >You have to admit he has his own flair, but it is raw and sloppy 
    >(remember this is how it seemed that the tone of the guitar was
    > refered to in earlier repies)
    
    Yeah, that's why I objected.  It seemed like a *perfect* analogy.
    So if Bob's a bad musician, so are those alternative folks. FWIW,
    similar words are often applied to Neil Young, Patron Saint of 
    grunge players.  
    
    >by the way I would rather hear Dylan sing
    >Knocking on Heaven's door rather than Axl Rose
    
    On that point, we have violent agreement ;^)
    
    Jim

Speakin of tone,,,  which is what this thread is about yes ????

I was chanell surfin last night, and caught the Kentucy Headhunters
doin a live performance on one of the county music stations..  the 
guitarist had a pretty beat strat with a maple neck,, couldn't see 
his amp at all, so not sure what he was using, but, sounded mint...

/pelksta..

    O.K., I did not call anyone close minded for not liking grunge. I
    called them close minded for making it sound like all "grunge " music
    has this same sound. All these people are basing this on what? What
    they hear on the radio, well that isn't even touching the surface of
    grunge music. What is popular certainly is very similar sounds, but
    there is so much more to it. You can't make a statement that says you
    like or dislike a band when all you have heard is two "popular" songs
    from a particular band. The reason I like these bands is the diversity
    they display in their albums. 
    
    Next, I can't expect you to totally see my point on Dylan, because you
    have been "directly" influenced by him and you recognize him as a
    direct influence. He is an influence on me, but he indirectly
    influenced me by infuencing my influences (If that made any sense
    what-so-ever). All I know is that every recording I have ever heard of
    him playing live, he was sloppy, out of tune and he looked like he was
    going to pass out. Granted Aerosmith was the same way when I saw them
    as a little tyke, but I also said that they were bad musicians at the
    time. Dylan will always have my respect, but I know a million other
    musicians that will blow him away. BTW, Pearl Jam has slowly gone down
    the tubes as far as performing musicians. If you want to compare,
    compare Alice in Chains, and STP. Both are influenced by him and both
    can out sing, play, and perform beyond his abilities. Then again,
    that's when they aren't messed up on heroin. 
    
    Last, I wasn't speaking of you when I said the close minded comment.
    This is what I meant by you taking it personally. I didn't put the
    LABEL of bad musician on Dylan I was just trying to make a metaphor,
    and I know many people dislike Dylan so they would understand the point
    clearly. Obviously it worked because you knew what I meant, but you
    took it as a cut to your personal influence rather than an example.

guys, call it a rat hole, kiss and make up....

    This whole conversation has been full of misinterpertations, but I can
    still understand where he is coming from. I guess to word my point
    better I would say that to look at two songs by a group and say that it
    all sounds the same because the supposed sound of the guitar is the
    same is just plain foolish. If you listen to content and not the tone
    of the guitar you may be surprised. There are so many good songs out
    there and to judge a band souly on radio tunes is just foolish. 

    OK-- it's a rat hole
    
    I whole heartedly agree about not dismissing an entire genre based on
    limited exposure.  I think the same standards should be applied to
    artists, too.
    
    So, I'm not so sure about the kiss, though ;^)
    
    Returning to the topic of tone...
    
    If you want to hear *really* good tone, I highly recommend Tone Poems I 
    by David Grisman and Tony Rice.  Two great players playing some of the
    greatest vintage acoustic instruments ever made.  Tone Poems II is
    cool, too (Grisman with Martin Taylor-- more jazz oriented).
    
    Jim (who'll shut up now)

    I enjoy listening to Grisman, I agree the tones he gets out of his
    guitar are quite enjoyable. Another I would recommend is Adrien Legg. A
    totally different style of music, but the tones he gets out of that
    guitar are amazing. He calls his type of music Cajun, but this is old
    English cajun and kinda sounds like old music that would be played for
    as King in the King Arthur Days.

    re-.45
    
    I think his name Greg Martin, KY Headhunters guitar player, and I think
    he still plays thru Marshall amps.
    
    later,
    rj

    @BROKEN_RECORD.COM

    Just read an interview with Greg and the "10 guitars he *needs* for
    work".  High on the list was a '57 Strat that he claims he's "bonded
    with for life"; probably the one you saw.
    
    /rick
    

yea, that 'bonded for life' statement gives it away..

had to have been it...

Another guy that never stops amazing me regarding his sound is
Larry Carlton...  one of my fav. players..

    >>I enjoy listening to Grisman, I agree the tones he gets out of his
    >>    guitar are quite enjoyable. 
    Umm... David Grisman plays mandolin.
    
    Adrien Legg is a great guitarist.  I believe he has a topic in this
    conference.

    Sorry I had a brain fart, I was thinking of an old album I had with
    Grisman and Garcia, Garcia wailed out on it.

    
    re: Ray and Carlton - I can't agree there.  His tone and his playing
    has been lacking for too many years.  The Valley Arts guitars (or
    whatever he's using now) don't come close to the 335 years.  His tone
    on his first few albums and the Royal Scam was way better.
    
    Obviously this is all my opinion though.  But I've been burned too many
    times so I probably won't ever hear it if he comes back.
    

hey, your entitled to your own opinion, as wrong and as 
anal  as that may be Tom!!

				8^)  Tee-hee....

I guess my first hook into Cartlon was sometime around the
"On Solid Ground" so I'm not as familiar with the styles
and sounds he went for before he almost met God...  (This 
was like mid/late 80s...)

but still I find him verfy tasty, even if he was better in
the past, I still enjoy what he's doing, (or at least did)
on what I've come used to...

    Mr.Dylan is Close to Knock_Knock_Knockin on Heavens Door.
    I Hope He'll be All_Right.
    
    
       Crazy_A_Fan_Of_His_Lyrics_Al

according to the snippet I caught on the radio, he's got
something like a cardiac infection, (could be fatal..)

hope he gets out of there walkin,,, 

    ... could be fatal if not treated, but it's supposed to be quite
    treatable. I don't think they're saying that he's in serious danger
    at this point.