Conference napalm::guitar

    
    Well I'm not sure what the basis in theory is but key is all important
    to the overall feel of a piece of music. Certainly classically trained
    musicians will tell you this and give the theory as to why. Someone's
    bound to respond here with the 'real' reason.
    
    From my own experience on the guitar what seems to be important is the
    'shape' you're playing not necessairly the key. So, if you want to
    raise a song in C to E place a capo on (or use barre chords) and play
    the C shape further up the neck. Just playing open chords in E will
    make the piece sound 'wrong' to my ear.
    
    Also, there's a right and wrong place for barre chords. I have a friend
    who thinks playing open chords is for sissies basically. I cannot get
    it into his head that some songs just sound better with open chords
    whereas others sound better with barred chords.
    
    Richard

    John,
    
    In one of my former 'cover' bands, we used to transpose a few songs
    'cause our lame singer didn't have the range.  A few of these tunes had
    'real' signature guitar parts like the Doobies "Long Train Runnin'" and
    Edgar Winter's "Free Ride".  I HATED the transposed version....it just
    plain and simple did NOT sound 'right'.  The non-musicians in the
    audience never noticed.  I don't think theory applies here; it's an
    aesthetic thing more or less......in the arena of covering popular
    songs, some tunes just demand to be copied in their recorded key. IMHO!
    
    RE: -1
    
    Absolutely!  Open chords and many other 'cool' chord voicings sound
    really neat to me!  Barr chords are cool too, and necessary for certain
    sounds or 'voices'.  They each have their place.  Tell yer friend that 
    if he/she thinks open chords are for sissies, he's/she's got his/her 
    blinders on!
    
    My $.02

    Ditto...again!  In this band we wanted to play "Listen to the Music"
    (Doobies again) and the singer says we gotta drop it to 'D'.  I tried,
    but I'd lose the effect of the open E string and open A string (I'd let
    them ring 'quietly' for extra 'fullness' on the changes) when
    playing those signature Tom Johnston type chords in 'D'...we dropped
    the tune....
    
    sheesh...we needed a 'real' singer.....ask Coop!
    
    dawg

    How important is the key?
    
    Let's do Sweet Home Alabama in F#....c'mon now, everybody join in!
    
    8^)

    We needed something, thats for sure...
    :-)
    

    
    Thanks for the replies. But I still don't understand.  Let us leave
    aside considerations of vocal range and open strings. Did the writer of
    Long Train Running decide that it had to be in G# for any reason other
    than to suit the singer's range (for example)? 
    
    Do songwriters change keys until they find one which sounds
    best?  When a song is demoed (say on a piano), will someone comment
    "Great song, but it would sound better in the key of F"? I doubt it,
    but I am open to persuasion. 
    
    Regards
    
    John

    Obviously, open strings are going to make a big difference (That's why
    moving from C to E or vice versa is not recommended.).
    
    Voicings, or the "shape" of the chords, make a huge difference to me.
    Some people don't seem to notice. 
    
    Certainly if your lowest (or highest) note runs off the instrument,
    you're gonna have to flip a voicing somewhere, & that's going to matter
    (to me).
    
    Not so obviously, perhaps, but along the same lines is when you shift
    from/to wound/plain strings on the guitar. Typically E, A, & D are
    wound & the others plain (except on acoustics where the G is often
    wound as well). Rearranging a chord or part can sometimes force it to be 
    played on a plain instead of wound string. 
    
    The "length" of the string used in making the note can affect
    intonation, as can the tension in the string. For example, moving a song 
    from Bb to B by moving up a fret (assuming all barre chords & all same 
    shape) would sound different from that same key change accomplished by 
    tuning the guitar a 1/2 step higher. (Try playing along to G 'n' R's
    Sweet Child o' Mine after tuning up to a 440 A on a quartz tuner !)
    
    Piano "strings" (real ones) also have their own characteristics. The
    bass notes consist of one heavy "string" per note, the middle ones use
    two "strings (wires)" for each note, & the upper register uses 3
    "strings" per note. Any time any key transposition causes one of these
    boundaries to be crossed, it's going to result in a different "sound".
    Whether you *care* is another matter. Playing SCOM in Db is a plain
    pain & won't ever "sound right". Moving Mandy from Bb to C probably
    won't upset anyone's day. Often shifting keys a 4th or 5th instead of a
    tone or half tone does less dammage. The song usually has a different
    "feel" though.
    
    In my bass playing days, I always arranged my parts so that certain
    notes landed on certain strings, even though they're all huge wound
    things.
    
    Synthesizers, sampling, odd-ball tunings, & "partial-chords" in "weird"
    keys have muddied the waters considerably lately, but in the *vast*
    majority of cases, songs sound better (to me) in the "right" key.
    
    Paul (who once sustained a "sports related injury" trying to play
    "Hocus Pocus" by Focus a half step higher) 

    In some ancient cultures, the modes and key centers were considered to be
    tied to things like the zodiac (notice there are twelve months, twelve
    mode, twelve notes to the octave, etc.).  On one Mahavishnu Orchestra
    album, there is a piece where the soloists play in the mode suggested
    by their zodiac sign! 
    
    Because of the equal tempering used in western music, certain keys *do*
    sound different.  With instruments that can play microtonally (fretless
    strings, winds), playing in C# as opposed to Db can be quite different,
    though at a piano it may sound the same!  This is above and beyond the
    issues of register and voicing that have been mentioned.  
    
    With respect to the guitar, open tunings have been around for years. 
    While they facilitate playing certain types of music, they also have a
    characteristic sound.  Keith Richards' five-string open G tuning used
    on many Stones songs is a good example.  Tune up like Keith and "Brown
    Sugar" is easy to play, in standard tuning you can get the chords but
    the sound isn't right.
    
    							Brian

    As noted , some transpositions will make for strange guitar voicings
    (Sweet Home Alabama in F# was a good example).  
    
    But as far as the SOUND of the key goes, it makes a BIG difference to
    me.  Ask db -- I keep on trying to get him to play one of my original 
    tunes in the key of C# Major ... it doesn't sound right to me unless
    it has that really 'bright' sound to the key.  It just doesn't cut it
    transposed to the key of C Major imvho.

    I've been learning some cover songs recently and the tape I got with
    them on there plays at the wrong speed for some of the songs in my
    cassette deck.  So I'm finding how much the key really does set the
    "feel" of the song.  Some of them don't make much difference, some make
    a huge difference.  I don't know enough about music to explain it in
    the right theory terms, but the different keys have a different
    emotional "feel" to me.  Some songs work ok in a different one, some
    don't.  It seems to me that the smaller the change (1/2 step, 1 step),
    the better the chances for it still sounding ok.
    
    re:  2805.5 (Larry)

>    Try playing help by the Beatles in other than the key of A.
    
    Done it, hated it.
                      
    Greg

    
    	Gee, Larry/Greg.  Help in G ain't so bad.  It's Ticket to Ride
    	that must be in A...
    
    	Black Velvet in D is a real scream... Where'd the bass go?
    
    	

    >	Black Velvet in D is a real scream... Where'd the bass go?
    
    Bass players have long hated keys like D and Eb where they can't get
    that big boom of the E string, so some graduated to 5 strings where they
    can make the big noise in those keys, as well as C and B.  Then the
    bandleader calls one in Bb....
    
    							Brian

    RE -1:
    Try 'Zep's "Communication Breakdown" in F ;-)
    
    RE wrong speed tape:
    When a tape runs at the wrong speed, you also get a shift in tempo
    either faster or slower. This will do more dammage than a small key
    change. That's why I *love* E-drums. They always play at the same
    speed.
    
    Paul

    >>	It's Ticket to Ride that must be in A...
    
    Actually, it has to be in A minus about 1/4 whole note to be exact.
    
    Sometimes a particular key has a feel, mood, or "taste" to it which
    makes it distinctive.  I was surprised to hear Buck mention C#, as
    that's one of the few keys I can feel very strongly.  I always play
    "Iguator Vitae" (sp?) in this key with big pipe organ sounds.  Just
    isn't right in any other key.  C# sounds "majestic" to me.
    
    The bass player in my band knows next to nothing about music theory...
    he plays completely by ear.  If we decide to work on a song we've never
    done before, I usually know the chords but sometimes not the key.  So I
    start playing, he starts singing, and then he says "that's not right." 
    Then he'll start hunting for a second and then starts singing the song in
    what turns out to be exactly the right key.  He can feel when it's
    right.  Sort of "perfect Beatles pitch."
    
    

    Heck, everyone else has put in their two simoleons, why not me...
    
    I came into this thread late, and found two distinct items being
    discussed: chord voicings, specifically those on guitar, and key (as
    opposed to pitch).
    
    I have friends who envy my finger-picking the way I envy their
    flat-picking, who obviously (though they try to hide it) disdain my use
    of a capo. This relates to "happy" chord patterns for finding the right
    open strings for slick bridges and/or chord voicings, which don't much
    matter for screaming leads. Playing a "C" pattern two frets up just
    ain't the same as playing a "D" pattern.
    
    The other thing, the key thing, is most closely related (as one noter
    mentioned) to the use of equal temperament. You simply can't create a
    scale in which all fifths are perfect, so equal temperament makes a
    reasonable compromise, with the result that some fifths and/or fourths
    are slightly sharp or flat, giving a certain sound- or even a distinct
    feeling- to some keys. I know a *lot* of people who pretend to be able
    to discern the difference between playing a song in C and B-flat, and
    probably some that actually can. I'll confess candidly that despite a
    lot of theoretical and practical background, I *can't,* but I'll stop
    way short of contending that noone else can.
    
    Oh, BTW, this *does* leave out the *pitch* thing (as opposed to key).
    The thing about the key of a piece is that it identifies the relative
    pitches (and associated perfection or lack of same in the intervals) of
    the individual notes. Changing the absolute pitch of *all* the notes,
    say with a signal processor, should *keep* the key-associated
    uniqueness of the original; it does, though, possibly introduce the new
    consideration (again, I think someone mentioend this) of nonlinearity
    of our hearing apparatus with respect to pitch.
    
    FOrgive my rambling; it's late, I'm tired, and this is all *so* much
    more interesting than the proceedings of an MBC meeting...
    
    Bob

    Thanks for all the replies. Perhaps I should have specified pitch instead
    of key. Maybe I can refine the question to this:
    
    Leaving aside the limitations of individual instruments (open strings,
    chord voicings etc) and human voices, does a song sound different if
    played higher or lower than its original pitch (within reasonable
    limits, say half an octave)? Does the song necessarily sound worse? If
    so, why? What musical (as opposed to practical) principle says that
    Crocodile Rock is best played in G? 
    
    I know there are people with perfect pitch who could tell the
    difference, but will they think it sounds better or worse? Did Elton
    John try all 12 keys on his piano before deciding that Crocodile Rock
    sounded best in G, or did he just pick a key that suited his voice? 
    
    So much for refining the question.
    
    Regards
    
    John

    
    If you want to check out that mine of information, note 1754, there's a
    whole discussion on this very topic. It starts at 1754.151 and goes on
    from there.
    
    Note 1754 needs a little sorting out. It covers every theory issue
    imaginable, and then some!
    
    Dom 

>>    The other thing, the key thing, is most closely related (as one noter
>>    mentioned) to the use of equal temperament. You simply can't create a
>>    scale in which all fifths are perfect, so equal temperament makes a
>>    reasonable compromise, with the result that some fifths and/or fourths
>>    are slightly sharp or flat, giving a certain sound- or even a distinct
>>    feeling- to some keys. I know a *lot* of people who pretend to be able
    
    This doesn't make sense to me...  
    
    Equal temperment means that the frequency of each 1/2 step is product
    of the 12th root of 2 and the frequency of the half step below it. 
    As a result, all fifths (or fourths or whatever) will have the
    identical relationship (sharp or flat) when compared to a non-tempered
    scale.  I don't see how this can make certain keys have a certain
    sound (although I certainly see how it could if we tuned the instrument
    for a non-tempered scale).  When dealing with brass instruments, for
    which hamonic overtones (an thus non-tempered intervals) are a key 
    mechanism for producing tones, I can see how this MAY have an impact.
    Play a trumpet in C instead of Bb (concert pitch), and you must make 
    adjustments to keep "in tune."  This need for adjustment could very
    well lead to certain unique properties for specific keys in an
    orchestral setting.
    
    Acoustic instruments often have components that vibrate sympatheticly--
    open strings on guitars, the strings for the top two octaves of a
    piano...  I don't doubt that these have some impact on the
    characteristic sound of a certain key played on those instruments.
    And certainly all of the arguments made about restrictions on voicing
    and ease of fingerings apply (even on piano--  at least its much easier for
    ME to play piano in G than in Gb).  I'm not saying that there is no
    reason (other than pitch) that certain keys have "personalities"-- I
    just don't understand why.
    
    Jim

    RE: .19
    If the voice doesn't cut it why sing it in a key that doesn't work?
    Vocals are *THE* major piece of a tune (unless it's an instrumental
    tune in which case you're not restricted by any specific key) and in
    my opinion need to dictate the key used. Certain singers I've worked
    with (none anyone knows personally in Digital) had a one or two keys
    range! Talk about limiting yourself and every tune had to be transposed 
    if it wasn't in the original key. Sometimes vocal sound better if the 
    singer has to work, or reach for a note that's not as comfortable.
    If there are vocals in a tune, the singer will dictate the key in which
    the tune is played...  good, bad or indifferent. Sometimes it works...
    sometimes not. Does it sound better, or worse? I think that's up to the
    singers "interpretation" of the song. If the vocalist sings a "lame"
    interpretation...  it will sound lame even if the band is crankin'. In
    which case you kick the vocalist and tell them to sing it like they
    "mean it". 
    Here's a thought for ya, if you're working on a new tune and it lacks 
    something (but you can't pin point what's wrong) change the key *up* 
    a � or full step and try it again. Maybe having the singer reach alittle 
    for a note will give it the balz you lacked in the first few go-arounds.
    
    Just my 2�
     Fred
    	Rock on (� step higher),
    				Fred

    RE a few back:
    
    "Musical principles" don't apply to crocodiles *or* rock. ;-)
    
    Paul

>    >	Black Velvet in D is a real scream... Where'd the bass go?
>    
>    Bass players have long hated keys like D and Eb where they can't get
>    that big boom of the E string, so some graduated to 5 strings where they
>    can make the big noise in those keys, as well as C and B.  Then the
>    bandleader calls one in Bb....
 
    That's why Hipshot makes those D-tuner devices...
    
    gh

    We had Warren Senders onsite yesterday for an India Festival during
    lunch.  He's a Boston area jazz bassist who studies and performs Indian
    Classical music.  One interesting thing he said was that the great
    Indian Classical singers typically sing in one 'key' their whole career;
    whatever the natural pitch for their voice is.  Two singers will sing
    the same Raga in different pitch.  Warren said that relative pitch is
    important, but he doesn't know any Indian musicians who have what we
    call perfect pitch and that this would probably even be a hinderance
    in Indian music.
    
    So it appears for this music, which is very rich in imagery and filled
    with powerful expressions of emotion, the key has no significance.
    
    /rick

    You mean they don't have to sing in key?  Cool, I'll have to move
    THERE!
    
    Greg

    re: singers in one key.......
    
    Doesn't John Mellencamp do almost all his music in 'G'?
    
    Clapton is big on key of 'D' and 'G'.....
    
    steev

    
    A lot of bands these days tune their guitars down a half-step.
    This seems to give the guitars a "fatter" sound and it gives 
    the singer(s) a bit of a break as well. So if you're tryin to cop
    a cover tune, and you find that the guitarist is hitting an open
    open low Eb, it's probably de-tuned a 1/2 step...
    
    /Billy_K
    

    Yeah, that seems to be real common.  EVH, SRV, Slash, Lynch, and others
    have all done that.  VH said in an interview that they did it mostly
    'cause David Lee Roth couldn't hit the high notes, but I think that's
    kind of a cop out, since a half step difference usually isn't going to
    make or break a person's ability to sing something.
    
    Greg	

    and it is easier to bend strings tuned down 1/2 step. Seems to be
    harder to stay in tune though. 

    re: .25
    
    Rick, I got a different impression from Warren's comments. Indian music
    is microtonal and so the temperament issue that exists in Western music
    doesn't really exist in Indian music.  I think someone picking their
    own drone pitch for Indian music is more like people arguing over
    whether music sounds better with A440 or A442.  
    
    Actually, 440 Hz is a bit sharper than A used to be back in the baroque
    days.  Classical performers who are into "period" instrumentation often
    tune a bit flat to be more "authentic".  I don't pretend to hear a
    difference (I'm lucky I can tell when I'm close to being in tune).
    
    							Brian

>    and it is easier to bend strings tuned down 1/2 step. Seems to be
>    harder to stay in tune though. 
    
    Why would it be harder to stay in tune?

    I think it *seems* harder to *stay* in tune partly because it *is* a
    lot harder to *get* in tune. The looser the strings are, the easier it
    is to "pluck them sharp" (momentarily) while tuning. I used to tune a
    6-string guitar down an octave to play it as a bass, & it was a
    nightmare trying not to pluck the strings too hard so that they stretch up
    to another note. Looser strings just exacerbate the problem of picking
    evenly when tuning.
    
    Another possible source of "tuning creep" is that the less tension
    there is on a string, the easier it is for it to slip (unless you have
    a real stable locking system).
    
    I also find that whatever tuning I'm using, I have to stay with it for
    a while to let it "sink in". That means if I change to something
    significantly different, (like tuning all 6 strings down even a half setp)
    it takes a while & some fine tuning before it stays.
    
    Paul 

    re .31
    
    Well Bri, I remember asking specifically about whether singers would
    transpose a Raga to their own range and was somewhat surprised that
    they did.  He seemed to indicate there was no one correct pitch range
    (which I interpreted as equivalent to key) that had to be used.  Remember
    when he said with some of his female vocal students he would typically
    play a piece a 5th higher than he himself would sing it?

>Actually, 440 Hz is a bit sharper than A used to be back in the baroque days.

    This brings up a facinating point: how did they know what A was back
    then. I mean, how does anyone today know what frequency A was tuned to
    300 years ago? Were their tuning forks that good? And what kind of
    consistancy could possibly have exsisted back then?

    --Ron

    
    Just to pick up on the thread of this note and someone who said they'd
    prefer not to play a song at all than play in the wrong key. Here's a
    practical example. In the occasional band I play in I refuse to play
    Proud Mary. Why, because the singer can't hit the high notes when we
    play it in D (I think it's D, the verse opens in D anyway). As 'he who
    is responsible for delivering the classic chord riff' I just plain
    refuse to play the song at all if I can't play this using barred G
    shapes. Anything else kills this distinctive chord progression dead.
    
    I could always detune the guitar but that's not practical (I only have
    one!).
    
    Richard
    
    PS: I am the singer!!
    

    All this talk of transposing reminds me of a great story. It's slightly
    off the topic, but what the hey!
    
    A friend of mine used to play in Shaking Stevens' band. Now ol' Shakey
    doesn't have much of a vocal range, so all of his songs tend to be in
    the same key (I can't remember which one - it might be C...).
    
    Anyway, the band are getting tired of playing in the same key all
    night, so one day, when they're working out a new song at rehearsal,
    someone suggest they play it in F. They get a little way through it,
    and Shakey says "That's a little low for me, can you bring it up a
    little?". No problem, we'll play it in F# instead. After a while,
    Shakey says "That's a bit high now lads... is there anything in
    between?"
    
    :^)
    
    Nick

    
    You know, if I was to give one single piece of advice to someone
    learning to play the guitar, it would be:"Never play without checking
    that your guitar is perfectly in tune first (i.e. concert pitch)".
    
    I've been playing for about 12 years (nothing outlandish, I know), but
    I'm sure that my learning curve would have been a whole lot different
    if someone had impressed this on me. I've got a reasonably good ear and
    I used to learn the chords to *dozens* of Stones, Beatles, Who, Kinks,
    Doors songs without ever bothering to ensure that I was playing them in
    the right key. They all sounded "more or less" right to me! 
    
    Of course, every now and then I'd play along with the record and
    discover that Jumpin' Jack Flash was in B and not D, but damn if I was
    going to relearn it! It was pretty embarassing when I got to share this
    mine of songs with other musicians ("Oh! That's funny! I don't play
    Waterloo Sunset like *that*!").
    
    It's amazing how a certain guitar part can suddenly become easier when
    you play it in the key it was originally written in. A classic example
    is "Feel A Whole Lot Better" by the Byrds. It's bad enough playing it
    without a 12-string Rickenbacker, but try *not* playing it in D!
    
    Likewise, I agree with what was said earlier about voicings making a
    huge difference. I remember learning to play "It's Too Late" by Carole
    king from the sheet music. It sounded OK except for the BbMaj7 that's
    repeated during the chorus (I forget the progression now). I tried
    playing a BbMaj7 bar chord at the first fret, but it just didn't have that 
    "wistful" sound originally present in the song. So I tried using the
    classic FMaj7 first position chord moved up to the sixth fret and...hey
    presto!
    
    Dom
    
    P.S. Naive question about brass instruments. If I'm not mistaken, the sax 
    and trumpet are always referred to as Bb (or is it Eb?) instruments.
    Does this mean that any song arranged for a horn section *must* be
    written in Bb/Eb? I've never experimented, but I can't imagine that
    almost the entire Stax/Volt output in the sixties was limited to these
    keys! 
    

     

    Re: .34
    
    OK, what I meant was since *relative* pitch is most important in the
    Indian music that it avoids the problem in western equal tempered music
    where certain intervals, say a sixth, actually is a bit different
    depending on which key you play it in.  
    
    If you have instruments that can play microtonally (hell, sitars let
    you move the frets around, and a voice can sing microtonally) it's
    possible to *always* have the correct pitch.  On a piano or fretted
    string instrument it's *not* possible to always have the 100% correct
    pitch.  Play the harmonic that's found on an open string of a guitar or
    bass up near the third and fourth frets (it's actually in between
    someplace) and it sounds *out of tune* although by definition it has to
    be in tune.  What that means is we are used to hearing things a bit out
    of tune in order to facilitate playing in different keys.  Indian music
    doesn't have that problem.
    
    So there may be a perceived difference because the Indian musician's
    "key" may be higher or lower than anothers', but the *relative* pitches
    are always at the same ratios.  Not necessarily true on a guitar when
    you go from C to Bb.
    
    Re: .38
    
    Wind and brass instruments are called "transposing" instruments.  Lok
    at the saxophone family: Bb soprano, Eb alto, C melody, Bb tenor, Eb
    baritone, Bb bass.  If you read saxophone notation, if the note is
    *really* a Bb, it's notated as a C for a Bb instrument and an F for an
    Eb instrument.  But for the *notated* C, the fingering is the same for
    *all* saxophones.  So you can play any of the saxes from a score with
    identical fingerings.  
    
    But if you are playing by ear (no sheet music) with a band and the
    leader says "this is in Bb" it's in *C* for the sax if he has a
    soprano, tenor or bass sax, and F if he has an alto or baritone. This
    is why you commonly see jazz players who double onm soprano and tenor
    *or* alto and bari, but doubling tenor and bari is less common. The C
    melody sax, which is rare these days, is a tenor pitched in C instead
    of Bb.  Bb and Eb are the common transposing pitches.  
    
    You will hear wind players talk about "concert" pitch, i.e the stuff
    that you and I read.  
    
    BTW, while guitars are not a true transposing instrument, but guitar
    music is written an octave above where it is actually played for ease
    of reading.  A pianist reading the same score will play an octave
    higher than a guitarist would.
    
    							Brian

>>    P.S. Naive question about brass instruments. If I'm not mistaken, the sax 
>>    and trumpet are always referred to as Bb (or is it Eb?) instruments.
    
    A "standard" trumpet is a Bb trumpet.  What that means is that when
    the trumpet player plays a "C" the actual sound is a Bb one step below
    the written C.  The trumpet is chromatic-- it can play in any key, but
    trumpet music is written one step higher that it sounds (sort of like
    a negative 2 fret capo).  A tenor sax is also Bb, but sounds an octave
    lower than the trumpet (if I remember correctly, its been a while).  An
    alto sax is Eb. FWIW, you can also buy a C trumpet, where a C is a C.
    
    Why the confusion?  Two reasons, I guess.  Writing the music in this
    fashion keeps a greater portion of the instruments range on or near
    the staff.  It also makes it easier for musicians to transfer to 
    different members of the same family: an alto sax player can switch
    to tenor and not need to learn new fingerings.  
    
    
    Jim

    RE.: back many replies...  I lost track.  ;^)
    
    If tuning your guitar to Eb is a problem, step up 1 gauge heavier on
    your strings. Keep in mind the reasons for EV and SRV to tune to Eb...
    the heavier the string gauge the thicker the sound, BUT it's also harder 
    to bend the strings. (EV = 0.010" & SRV = 0.013" I thought)
    
    	Rock on,
    		Fred (who uses .011's and .010's tuned to 440 pitch)

    Stevie definitely used the manley-man gauge strings, but if I remember
    right, Eddie used a strange mix of gauges that were a lot lighter on
    the bottom then on the top.  I tried some like that once and hated 'em.
    
    gh

    
    Re .37
    
    Pete Lincoln any chance?
    
    Richard

    re.41
    
    Greg,
        I tried Ernie Ball hybrids for a while(heavy bottom,light tops)and
    didn't think too much about them either so I went back to using 10's.
    
    
    							ian

    RE: .43
    
    No, Richard, I don't know Pete (though I've heard his name often
    enough). This story came from Dick Hanson (of the Rumour Brass).
    
    Nick

    re: Ian
    
    Yeah, I've used those too and didn't care for them either.  EVH
    actually went the other way, heavy top, light bottom, which feels even
    MORE strange to me.  Guess I'm just too used to the feel of a
    "standard" set.
    
    Greg

    
    Re .45
    
    Coincidence then. Pete Lincoln was (maybe still is) a backing vocalist
    for Shaky. Saw him on TOTP several times.
    
    Richard
    
    PS. Maybe they know each other hence maybe not such a coincidence.

    
    	I've used the "Hybrid Slinkys" for quite a few years now, and I
    really like them. To each his own... I can't stand playing a guitar
    string with an .008 set.
    
    
    Brad
    

    re last few
    
    I switch back and forth between the 10-52's and the 11-52's. I think
    the wound strings in the 10-46 are too slinky for the unwound ones.
    
    But then again, most of the time I play a cheap acoustic with Martin 
    Bluegrass strings (13-56) and high action. 

                            IT'S ALL IMPORTANT!!!!!!
    
               If we're talking "ROCK'N ROLL" then the KEY is all
    important, because the correct SOUND is what ROCK is really all about.
               You're NOT talking about an audience of Jazz Fans, and if
    it sounds good then that's half the battle!
               If you check out any songs by Stevie Ray Vaughn, he's always
    tuned down 1/2 step from your standard A-440, which is NOT unusual at
    all!  Why?  Because it sounds better, it's easier on the voice, and the
    guitar strings have more bend to them!
               Let's face it!  Rock songs are usually in the Key of "E", or
    "D", or "A", or "G". Because that's what SOUNDS good!
               If you then take an instrumental, by Carlos Santana, called
    "Europa", that's in the Key of "Eb", or "C Relative Minor" to "Eb" then
     it doesn't really matter!
               All ya gotta do is sit down with some Blues Tunes or Groups
    like "ZZ TOP" or Gary Moores' stuff and it'll be as plain as the nose
    on your face!
               So, speaking from 20+ years experience, KEY IS ALL IMPORTANT
    
                         "PRACTICE PROMOTES PERFECTION"               
    
                                                                    STORM'N

    Dm is the saddest of all keys.
    But, you already knew that.

    Rick

    re -1
    	
    	"Simple lines.....intertwining, I was really heavily influenced
    by Mozart and Bach..........so this is really a Mach piece.."
    
    P.K.