Conference napalm::guitar

    Any mention of prices, Brian?
    
    Dave

    Re: .2
    
    I saw the January 1993 price list and these amps were not listed on it.
    That's all I can tell you.
    
    						Brian

    re: -< If You Have To Ask, You Can't Afford One >-
    
    That's exactly what I'm afraid of.
    
    Dave

    My dealer called me with a NAMM update, and said the Vibro-thingies
    were outrageous. He ordered three at the show. Said they were aimed at
    Matchless/Kendricks/THD and hit a bullseye. Hand-wired and all
    that. He thought they were the best amps he's heard in a long time.
    
    I think he said they were about$1500.
    
    Danny W.     (Thinking about it--I haven't bought an amp in a year)

    Just out of curiosity, what does "hand-wired" really mean in terms
    of a tube amp. It strikes me that a metal chassis with tube sockets
    mounted on it, such as the fender re-issue amps would need to be
    hand wired. So how does "hand-wired" on a Kendricks differ from
    the construction on a fender?

        Point to  point, hand soldered using real insulated wire rather
        than a PCB is what's usually meant.
        
        Andy
        

    re -1 
    
    Yeah, but isn't that how the fender re-issues are, point to point
    and hand wired. But no-body calls them "hand-wired" and they certainly
    are a lot cheaper than Kendricks who makes a point of calling them
    "hand-wired".

    The argument about which is better, PC board or hand wiring is
    religious.  I remember back in the 60s Zenith touting handwiring in
    their TVs as a sign of quality.  I own an Ampeg amp which is all tube
    but is PC wired, in fact it even has PC-mounted pots.  But it's easily
    20 years old, maybe 25 years old.  So not *all* "vintage" amps were
    handwired.  
    
    Whether or not the amp will *sound* different depending on the
    construction technique gets into the realms of hocus-pocus that golden
    ear audiophiles like to argue about.  If there *is* an audible
    difference, then go for what sounds better...maybe you'll be lucky and
    it'll be the (cheaper) PC board version.
    
    						Brian

re .8 

>    Yeah, but isn't that how the fender re-issues are, point to point
>    and hand wired. But no-body calls them "hand-wired" and they certainly
>    are a lot cheaper than Kendricks who makes a point of calling them
>    "hand-wired".

    No. from what I've read about them Fender reissues use PC boards. THDs
    and Kendricks do not.

    --Ron

    re .9

    I agree. In and of itself, hand-wiring means nothing in terms of how
    well an amp sounds.

    --Ron

    "hand wired" usually means point-to-point wiring rather than pre-cut
    harnesses or pwbs
    
    I agree with Mr. Rost that this is a religious rathole. I have no
    personal opinion about this, but was just passing on Fender's marketing
    line.
    
    Danny W.

    FYI, THD's are not hand wired point-to-point either.  They use PCBs
    with special heavy duty MIL spec silver traces.
    
    Both THD and Kendricks claim that the method of wiring affects both
    reliability AND tone; I can believe the first, not so sure about the
    second.

    It must be Kendrick then. I thought from the Bassman reissue shoot-out
    piece in GP that Fender was the only one with a PCB. I could be wrong.

    FWIW, the Bassman, Twin & Vibroverb reissues use PCB construction. 
    Kendricks and THD make a big point over this difference.  Others claim
    that the electrons can't tell the difference.  As far as the the above
    reissues are concerened, I would guess the incorporation of a solid
    state rectifier makes more of a difference than the absence of
    point-to-point wiring.
    
    I'm sure MY ears can't hear the difference.
    
    						Jim

    I suppose that if the amp were subjected to extreme road use, the point
    to point wiring might be more reliable.  That just seems logical, PC
    boards can eventually flex and break, especially as they get larger and
    have heavy componants attached to them.  It makes sense to me that
    point to point might be a little more reliable over a period of many
    many years of abuse.  
    
    Probably not a big consideration for *me* because I don't beat the crap
    out of my amps, but it might make a difference for some people. 
    Someone like that would probably have a lot of expense in retubing too,
    'cause the tubes seem to be more fragile then any PC boards I've
    seen...
    
    Greg

    Re: .16
    
    This is why it gets religious.  If point to point wiring was so
    reliable, why did people go to PC anyway?  Actually, a lot of
    reliability issues are *not* obvious.  What's the single weakest link
    in most electronic equipment?  The fuse!  Some military contracts
    *prohibit* fusing as a blown fuse can bring down an entire system. 
    Instead, fault-tolerant power supplies that can survive dead shorts,
    etc. get used.  
    
    If PC is less reliable than handwired, how the heck would integrated
    circuits ever work, since you have to bond the pads of the die to the
    pins on the package somehow and those bonds are *microscopic*!  If you
    think amps get jostled, what about the computer gear mounted on a
    rocket heading for outer space...now *there* we have some issues of
    rough handling!  And they don't handwire aerospace computers, do they?
    
    In all the years I've gigged, what repairs have my amps required?
    Replacing switches!  They get busted off when the amp gets dropped, or
    they just break down from years of use.  I even had to replace an input
    jack on an amp once because it was the type that provides a switch when
    you plug in and the spring tension on the switching contact was gone so
    the switch was gone.  Or how about a power switch that wouldn't turn
    *off*!! That's right, no broken connections, no explosions, fires,
    blown drivers, etc.  %$#%^&^ switches!
    
    Talking to John Derrico recently about repair work he does for a music
    store, he said the majority of repairs he sees are amps needing nothing
    more than new tubes or cleaning/replacing dirty/worn pots!
    
    							Brian

    regarding reliability: I've fixed more than one problem caused by
    point-to-point wiring. Long wires and long solid leads (which are
    typical of point-to-point construction) on large caps vibrate and break
    off at the point of connection. PCB designs tend, I would think, to
    minimize the length of component leads and wires.

    I personally have never found a problem with a PCB. That's not to say
    that there aren't any problems. Just that from my own experience, I
    might be inclined to prefer a PCB.

    Saw this on Usenet earlier and thought it might interest some of you.
    
    Greg



Article 32417 of rec.music.makers:
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!caen!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.mentorg.com!andyb!andyb
From: [email protected] (Andy Bishop)
Subject: Fender Custom Shop Amp Details...
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Sender: andyb@andyb (Andy Bishop)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1993 23:13:54 GMT
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Organization: mentor
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Lines: 31

You may be aware out there that the Fender Custom Shop
now has a amp dept.  I just got the latest scoop on what
can best be compared to a Vibroverb on steroids.

They call it the VibroKing! (cool name).  Looking at it you'll
see blond tolex covered, ox-blood grill combo amp.  Get this,
it has 3 10" blue Jensens!!! Yow! (yeah 3 10s).  They are remanufacturing
those old, sweet blue 10s.  It'll be about 40-45 watts probably powered
by a pair of Sovtek 5881s.  Of course, tube rectification, unlike the
re-issue Vibroverb.

And now...drum roll please.....

Tube reverb and point to point wiring! No circuit board!  It'll only
have one channel (two inputs).  Compared to a Vibroverb, the other 
(missing) channel's set of knobs will control the tube reverb.  The
reverb has three tone controls.  One that controls the mix (how much 
reverb injected into signal path), one knob that is pure tone, and the last
one is called "dwell" (at 1200 rpm you set the dwell at 12 degrees below
top dead center) which is how to control the room size.  Oh yeah, one of
these knobs is a "pull fat" for that "fatter, plump, juicy" tone.

I'm pretty jazzed! but got the blues about the price: $2599

I'm counting the beans now...wanna get me one of these tone boxes.

-- 
Andy Bishop                                | Mentor Graphics Corporation
[email protected]                          | Framework Products Division
 ...{sequent, apollo, uunet}!mntgfx!andyb  | 503/685-7000 x3684 
                                           | 503/685-1599 FAX

    $2599, and this guy's thinking about it???
    
    Man, I thought *I* had vintage fever

    There's a hype-fest on the amp Custom Shop in the Fender Frontline ad
    rag (this thing makes the Peavey Monitor sound like the New York
    Times!).
    
    The idea is that it's not a real custom shop like the one that builds
    guitars, unless you're an endorsee.  So if Eric or Yngwie calls up
    and sez he wants a Dual Showman in snakeskin with a 475 watt power
    stage and built-in strobe lights, he gets it.
    
    You and I can buy these handmade amps with "vintage style" features in
    "limited run" quantities.  The hype is that amps "specially voiced" for
    blues, metal, country will be offered that will be "extremely well
    suited to that genre of playing".  Prices (as seen in earlier replies)
    will likely be sky-high due to the small quantities.
    
    Also some bullhockey about how innovations in Custom Shop models will
    eventually find their way into regular Fender amps.  I guess like the
    space program brought us Tang??
    
    Curious if other amp companies will start offering similar stuff.  How
    successful has Marshall been with their reissues?  I see lots of
    Bassmans and Vibroverbs on stages now, but no Bluesbreaker combos.
    
    						Richie Sambuca

    RE: -1
    
    Richie, 8^)
    
    Think I could get Ford to make me a '66 Mustang GT with 1993 EPA specs
    and 5.0 liter V8?
    
    Ralph Nader

>    There's a hype-fest on the amp Custom Shop in the Fender Frontline ad
>    rag (this thing makes the Peavey Monitor sound like the New York
>    Times!).
    
    Ever read the "Marshall Law" one?  It's easily as bad as the Fender... 
    I think they're actually pretty comical!
    
    gh

    In the new GP "Geargasm" article they confirm the VibroKing price at
    $2400, the ToneMaster head is $2000.  Hmmm, seems like there is *lots*
    of action in the high price ranges suddenly, I must have the wrong day
    job!  
    
    Heck, I can get all the gear I want for $25 a month on Bencharge and
    depreciate it against my income on Schedule C, right?
    
    						Pete Greenbaum

    This months GP Magazine reviewed the Vibro-King. They said something to
    the effect that " It'll smoke the most knarly vintage super reverb".
    
    I guess that means they liked it.  :+)
    
    They also commented on the high price but said if ya had the bucks,
    it was worth it.
    
    Fender also seems to be coming out with some new tweed tube amps. These
    apparently are not re-issues but have new designs. I'm trying to get
    some info on em.
    
    jim

    I just read that review in GP on the Vibro King. They were practically
    falling all over themselves trying to come up with enough adjectives for
    how much they liked it. I'd say they loved it.

    If someone gave me a $2500 tube amp for nothing, I'm sure I'd love it
    too.  
    
    							Brian

    It seems as though maybe there was more to the Guitar Player Mag review
    than just GP sucking up to Fender for free gear. There's some strong
    evidence that Tone Masters are hitting the big time AND living up to
    their name.

    Last week Steve Perry sat in with the CBS Arkestra on Dave on the nights
    bracketing Aerosmith's performance. His rig was a pair of Tone Master
    heads with one 2-12 cab (80 watt Celestions). That's right, 2 heads, one
    cab. Your guess is as good as mine. That Brad guy was using a Tone
    Master with a 4-12 cab. I didn't watch them on SNL. I can't say a lot
    about Perry's sound except that a few times coming back from a
    commercial break I heard some great sounding guitar just before the band
    stopped.

    On Friday night, ZZ Top performed on the big shoe, Billy and Dusty both
    used Tone Masters. I thought Gibbons sound was exactly right as per his
    tone on Antenna. He was playing his "Bones" Fender Esquire with the EMG
    pickup.

    I Fender was giving amps away for endorsement deals, it seems as though
    they would push production models rather than custom shop stuff, since
    little wanna-bees aren't about to run down and order a Tone Master.
    These guys must be using them because they like them.

    re two heads, one cab:  maybe one was just a backup head
    
    re Billy G:  EMGs eh?  I heard him talking about a Pearly Gates
    stacked humbucker recently, thought he'd be using one of those.
    (Sounds like a great idea though, don't it?)
    
    And on a slightly related topic, I saw one of the new Mesa Trem-o-Verbs
    last week.  Didn't plug it in, but the thing weighed more than a
    freakin Twin!

>    re two heads, one cab:  maybe one was just a backup head

    Mmmmm, maybe but I don't think so. He could be running the 2 speakers
    separately with each head set up for a different voice. It's a cool
    think to do if you've never tried it. Run to amps and set the tones up
    to be dramatically different. The possibilities are endless.
    
>    re Billy G:  EMGs eh?  I heard him talking about a Pearly Gates

    E-M-G (no s). It's an Esquire. (They're really "into" one pickup
    guitars.) According to the piece in GP last month, "The Bones" is the
    only one of the new set of Esquires with an EMG. I don't know what's in
    "Think Buck Owens". (BTW, these Esquires are refered to by their
    respective fretboard inlay, "The Bones" has "ZZ TOP" written in what
    looks like bones, "Think Buck Owens" simply says "Think Buck Owens".)

>   but the thing weighed more than a freakin Twin!

    In-con-ceivable!

    re: .30  Trem-o-Verbs weight
    
    Rick, isn't Mesa coming out with a Tremoverb "head"??? There might be
    possibilities there! 1/2 the weight of a TWIN? My achin' back! YEOW!
    
    Fred
     

    I had a chance to play with a Vibro-King last week. It is truly scary,
    sort of the essense of "Fenderocity." I tried it with a variety of
    guitars, including a 335, LP-SG, Jaguar and a Super 400 CES. The latter
    didn't sound good until I turned the "Fat" switch off, but the others
    all sounded incredible.
    
    I'd love to own one, but it's heavy (more than the '65 Twin reissue)
    and expensive and I have no place to keep it. I may get it anyway.
    
    In any case, if you're looking for the perfect Fender sound, give it a
    try. It's serious fun.
    
    Danny W.

    Danny,
    	Don't tell me how good it sounds...  I don't want to know...  the
    next thing I know I'll try one out and put another lean on my house again!
    
    
    ;^)'s
    
    	Fred (who'd love to own a Vibro-King, but not on a Gorilla budget)

    Speaking of those custom shop amps, apparently the Dual Professional
    that Billy Gibbons used on Antenna was one of these new jobs, not the
    old early 50s model that I thought they were talking about in the
    interview. I thought his tone on Breakaway was too good to be one of
    those ancient models. It also jibes with the fact that he got tone
    perfection on the Letterman show with a Tone Master.
    
    According to the New Gear piece in the current GP issue, they've (the
    custom shop) have just put out a new Dual Professional. I think it's a
    Tone Master in a 2x12 combo package.

    I'm beginning to think that these new Fenders are _the_ new standard
    bearer in amplifiers. They look wicked cool too.

    The Dual Professional is like a Vibro-King on steroids or a Twin with a
    'tude. It adds switchable "fat" to the -King's one channel and moves a
    rather huge amount of air through two 12's. Unlike the 'King, it
    doesn't develop a growl as the volume increases, it just gets loud
    enough to cause serious hearing loss without even breathing hard.
    
    30 years ago, I would have killed for an amp like this. Using a Twin or
    Showman, or sometimes both together, I liked a hi-fi clean sound from
    the Jaguar I usually played on stage. Distortion was something that
    came from a stomp box. In the last few years, I've been using a much
    richer sound, but I still like using a high-power Fender as as jazz
    amp.
    
    With the Vibrosonic, Vibrolux, Vibroverb, Vibro-King, '65 Twin and Dual
    Professional, there's almost an embarassment of vintage style Fender
    stuff available. For the price of the Dual Pro, you could stack a
    Vibrolux on top of a Vibroverb or Twin and use an A-B box for channel
    switching, but I have to admit the Dual Pro has a certain scare factor
    that I like, and it looks pretty cool too. 
    
    Danny W.

    Danny, what's the story on the Vibrosonic and Vibrolux?  These are old
    names, but are there new models attatched to them?  I haven't heard of
    these yet, if you have details or a pointer could you please post?
    Thanks
    
    /rick
    

Sure I like country music and I like mandolins,
But right now I need a Telecaster through a Vibrolux turned up to ten.
Let's go to Memphis in the meantime baby

		- John Hiatt

    Rick:
    
    The Vibrosonic looks similar to original blackface version--a twin with
    1-15". It has different tone shaping with a "steel guitar" channel, but
    otherwise appears to share the Twin chassis. Priced around $900
    
    The Vibrolux appears to be the replacement for the Vibroverb--a 2-10",
    40-watt (2-6L6) model. It has reverb and "vibrato" on both channels,
    and currently comes in rough white tolex styled like the original white
    Twin, although a black version is on the way. This one costs around
    $700.
    
    Fender has always used obtuse model names to make it as hard as
    possible to figure out which amps used the same chassis, and over the
    years these names have  been attached to completely unrelated models.
    It would be much easier for the player if they would have a name for
    each chassis and a speaker count and feature modifier (like 4-10
    Concert Reverb instead of Super), but that would have made life too
    hard for guitar book authors.
    
    Danny W.

                         
    I'm ashamed to admit that in my search for
    great literature I have obtained the new Fender
    Frontline ad/mag.  I _thought_ that said the Vibrosonic
    was a little green thing with two tens, and the
    Vibrolux was the 1x15 job.  Also GP may have had
    a blurb about the Vibrosonic recently.  F-line also
    mentions (but does not list) a "Blues Jr", like the
    Pro Jr amp (15 watts?), but with a single 12 in. spkr.  
    
    Thankfully my GTS is in remission, and I've decided
    I really _like_ the solid state sound of my Princeton 
    Chorus!  That's a good thing, since it seems 
    one can't give away a solid state amp these days. 
    
    Adequately-amped-Dave  
    
     

    There's a Prosonic that comes in odd colors, which is a
    channel-switching amp, not a retro design. The Vibrosonic is as I
    described it.
    
    Danny W.

    
    Yes, I was misremembering! Please disregard my confusion regarding
    the Vibrosonic and 'lux.  I'll blame it on the side effects 
    of Alka Seltzer plus. . . 
    
    As suspected, the green amp I was remembering from GP _was_ 
    the Prosonic, a 2x10, tube, "custom shop", 40 watt amp, list ~$1500.  
    This amp is not in the fall Fender magazine product list.  
    
    Dave
    
      
    
           

    I also noticed that the amp is the Custom Vibr*a*sonic, which is the
    original spelling, and that the guitar channel has a "fat" switch like
    the Vibro-King.
    
    Danny W.

So Danny, I gather you bought a Dual Professional. Still got the Mesa
Mark IV? 

I love my Deluxe Reverb Reissue,but if I ever go back to playing in
a band, I'll need something a little more powerful. Something on the
idea of a Super Reverb would be perfect. I wish the new Fender Super
Reverb was actually a reissue amp, but it's a modern-style amp with
gain and channel switching (blasphemy)! I believe there would be a
huge market for a reissue Super. It is the amp of choice on the blues
scene. Give them time, and eventually there will be one. The demand is
far too great to ignore.

Mark

    re re-issue Super, maybe... maybe not...
    
    The Blues DeVille seems to be nicely fitting the market of players who
    are looking for a modern alternative to the Super Reverb.
    
    /rick
    

    Mark:
    
    No, I'm still using my Mk IV. I've been thinking of adding a Fender,
    but between the Vibro-King, Dual Pro, Vibrolux and Vibrasonic--well,
    each has some feature that appeals to me.
    
    If they were guitars, I'd just buy them all, but I usually can't deal
    with more than two amps at a time. I'd really like a Vibro-King with
    the Dual Pro's footswitchable volume controls; on the other hand, it's
    twice as expensive as the Vibrolux, and the Vibrasonic's 15" speaker
    make a good argument for itself. If I buy a Dual Pro, I'd have to get a
    Fender Jaguar, except that I can't see paying the $1500+ price the grunge
    crowd has driven it up to. (The japanese Mary Kaye Jag looks nice, but
    the one I played had defective switches--just like my old one)
    
    This would be easier if there were a head-only version of one of these,
    but the Tonemaster isn't it.
    
    Rick's right about the Blues Deville. Although a Super reissue would be
    nice, the Deville is really hot and more practical for a blues player.
    
    Danny W.

    Re: a reissue Super Reverb
    
    There's already a bit of overlap in the reissue line.  It seems to me
    that a reissue Super Reverb would probably only steal customers from
    the '59 Bassman and the '63 Vibroverb.
    
    I'd personally prefer a Super over a Bassman, though.
    
    Well, you *could* pair the reissue tube reverb unit with a 
    reissue Bassman...
    
    Jim

    RE:  The Blues DeVille
    
    Hey, if they put a good "Trem" ckt into the DeVille they probably
    increase sales a bit.
    
    
    F