Conference napalm::guitar

      Having a choice, I'd go for the Floyd. I have never had any luck
    with Kahler units. I had a good friend that worked for Carvin
    and he let me roadtest that Koa DC-xxx with dual humbuckers and
    a gold plated Kahler. It didn't stay in tune worth a darn! So
    after 30 minutes he comes back and asks me how I like the Kahler.
    Since I felt I could be totally honest with him, I told him it
    wasn't worth anything to me since when I do this (insert total
    divebomb to the body and then snap it back up to normal position)
    it's totally useless, not to mention out of tune...   man was it
    out of tune. I mentioned that Carvin should look into installing
    Floyds instead. Floyds have their own wierd problems, but given a
    choice, I'd go for the Floyd Rose any day.
    
    Again this is just my opinion ya know....
    
    
    Rock on,
    	    Fred (who uses his stock '69 Fender tremolo and it stays in
       		  tune very well thank you)
    

    I use a Kahler on my Guild electric. I've never had a guitar that has
    stayed in tune as much as this one. It's great!! It's so reliable..As a
    matter a fact, it stays in tune much better than my Kramer with a Floyd
    Rose...

    
    Actually, if you want a whammy bar that stays in tune, you need to
    check out the Transtrem from Steinberger.  You can really torture these
    things (watch Reeves Gabriel in Tin Machine, sometime) and they stay in
    tune.  On top of that, the strings all bend proportionally, when the
    thing is set up properly.
    
    Actually, that's why they call it a Transtrem: short for Transposing
    Tremelo.  The whammy bar has a couple of notches in the mechanism so
    that you can lock it in at up to 2 (or is it three) half steps above or
    below normal tuning.
    

    I don't think there are significant quality differences between Kahler
    products and Floyd Rose.  They both make decent trems, the difference I
    see is in how they feel, they're *totally* different to play on. 
    That's how I'd make my choice.
    
    I don't know what the deal was with the Carvin that Fred tried, but
    I've had a couple of guitars with Kahlers on 'em, an Aria and a Hamer,
    and they both stayed in tune pretty well.  BUT, I hated the feel of the
    tremelo, it's too soft, too easy to move the bar for my tastes.  I like
    a firmer bar, and even with the "firm" springs in the Kahler it still
    doesn't feel right to me.  I *much* prefer the feel of a Floyd style
    trem system.
    
    But these days I just play a Les Paul, no trem, no bs...  8^)
    
    Greg

    I do like them both. It's neat to have both 'cause you can have
    different types of whammying effects. Hey, why not get the best of both
    worlds.

I gotta agree with Stig, I don't mind either.  The Edge system from Ibanez is
basically a floyd, but it feels much smoother to me...  and I too have owned
a few Kahler trems in my time, and sort of liek the easy vibrato you can 
get from a kahler.  

They are two seperate beasts though...
:-)

    Your right Coop..I like the softer kahler 'cause I can dive on it real
    farrrrrr...

Well, I find I can dive deeeeeeeppppp on both, but the  Kahler is 
far lighter feeling than the Edge or Floyds I've had.  I like the
"lightness" for those "shimmering" vibratos that most people can do
without a whammy.  :-)

jc

    But...you can't wave the guitar around with the Kahler, it just kind of
    flops around.

I only know two people who do that:

You, and Vernon Reid.

:-)

>I only know two people who do that:
>
>You, and Vernon Reid.

    You know Vernon?
    ;^)
    
    He roolz!  He's totally outta control!   Guess I'll havta get me an
    ESP...
    
    At one point in time (at least), my lead playing was somewhat similar
    to his ('cept he was consistant and probably knew what he was doing, I
    was just sloppy and outta control).  I *nailed* his lead tone playing
    my old Charvel/Jackson through an old Hiwatt 100 Lead with everything
    cranked, using a PowerSoak to keep the volume down.
    
    Greg

    Yeah, Vernon sometimes does seem to get pretty out of the mainstream. 
    But other times, his leads are beautiful and brilliant, especially on
    the "Time's Up" album.  He does great work on several tunes on that
    record, notably "Pride," "Under Cover of Darkness," and the intro to
    "Information Overload," to name three.  The new record is due for
    release in March.
    
    							Marc
    
    P.S.  Vernon plays Hamers now.

    
    I like Reids style but he must he been smoking some weird stuff when he
    recorded the solo to 'Cult of Personality'.
    
    -tony

    re: .1 Fred Abatelli
    
    > I had a good friend that worked for Carvin and he let me roadtest that
    > Koa DC-xxx with dual humbuckers and a gold plated Kahler. 
    
    Fred, you have a good friend that doesn't work for Carvin and has a
    Koa DC-xxx with dual humbuckers and a gold plated Kahler.
    
    He's in your band.  In fact... he's ME!!!!
    
    >I mentioned that Carvin should look into installing Floyds instead.
    
    Carvin's now come with a "Carvin/Floyd" which is a Floyd with some
    Carvin modifications.
    
    Regarding Floyd's versus Kahlers, here's my take:
    
    On feel:
    
    	Kahlers are more adjustable in terms of "feel".  A Kahler can
    	be made feather light as Greg noted in .4 and still stay
    	in tune pretty well.  Floyd's seem to have to be stiff to
    	stay in tune.
    
    	I actually PREFER the lighter feel that Greg hated.  I find that
    	I can get both more subtle with the bar, and that I can even use
    	it to accurately bend up or down to a particular note.
    
    	Obviously this boils down to preference.
    
    On staying in tune:
    
    	Kahlers and FLoyds can both be made to stay in tune very well
    	when properly setup. I've found that Kahlers are more critical to 
    	being set up properly and go out of setup easier.  This is
    	particularly true if you have them adjusted for a light feel
    	(sort of intuitive if you think about it).
    
    	For someone who is mainly dive-bombing and very aggressive with
    	the bar, the Floyd is the clear choice.  However, I think if
    	you are more subtle with the bar, I think the Kahler is the
    	best choice.
    
    	If you at the pro's, I think you'll find that the aggressive
    	bar types tend more to Floyd's and the subtle ones more towards
    	Kahler.   However, there are exceptions.  Most notably, I think
    	that Brad Gillis, whom I regard to be the most expressive (subtle)
      	player with a bar, uses a Floyd Rose system.  So clearly fine-tuned
    	expressiveness is possible with a Floyd.
    
    I have a Kahler, and aside from the fact that it's hard to keep setup
    (then again, I'm a guitar slob in that I don't take good care of my
    guitar), I'm happy with it.
    
    	db

    RE: .14
    
    Yo Davester I know you have that Carvin, but long before I met you
    when I was visiting friends and family out in So. California, I
    stopped in at Carvin in Escondido to visit a long lost friend of mine.
    It was like being a kid in a candy shop with all this equipment and
    guitars, basses...   anything I wanted to try I did! Such a deal!?!!
    After about 30 mins to an hour, he comes back and asks what I think
    about all the stuff I tried. I really liked that 100 watt tube combo
    they made to compete with the Mesa combo back then, but that Kahler
    tailpiece bites! Watch this (insert Fred doing a slow divebomb and then 
    slowly allowing it to get string tension back), play a standard E7
    chord and see...  BLAAAT KONK...  BEEEEEEEP outta tune mate...  I couldn't 
    live with this...  sorry, but I did like the tone though. I guess if you 
    have a heavy hand like me, the Floyd would be preferable. Just my two cents.
    
    As far as db's Carvin/Kahler...  I wouldn't know since I don't play it
    with the bar attached. I guess I should have tried a few more before 
    shooting Kahlers down, but at the same time, I've played Floyd's and
    it stayed in tune divebomb, after divebomb. 
    
    Just my experience with it.
    
    Rock on,
    	     Fred

>    	For someone who is mainly dive-bombing and very aggressive with
>    	the bar, the Floyd is the clear choice.  However, I think if
>    	you are more subtle with the bar, I think the Kahler is the
>    	best choice.

    Yes, I agree completely.  Finesse is not a word I've ever heard used to
    describe my guitar playing, hence the Floyd preference...

    Greg

re: .14
    
>    	Kahlers and FLoyds can both be made to stay in tune very well
>    	when properly setup. I've found that Kahlers are more critical to 
>    	being set up properly and go out of setup easier.  This is
>    	particularly true if you have them adjusted for a light feel
>    	(sort of intuitive if you think about it).
    
I just bought an older Carvin DC-200 with a Kahler (but not gold-plated :-).
The strings that came on it stayed in tune wonderfully, no matter what you
did with the tremolo.  Unfortunately, I have no idea what kind or gauge of
strings they were.  Ever since I changed the strings it doesn't stay in
tune worth beans, even if you don't use the tremolo (which I mostly don't).

So DB, how *do* you setup a Kahler, anyway?  I'd swear I've seen a note in
here before on how to do it, but darn if I can find it.  Also, is there
any way to "immobilize" a Kahler?

-Hal

    
> I just bought an older Carvin DC-200 with a Kahler (but not gold-plated :-).
> The strings that came on it stayed in tune wonderfully, no matter what you
> did with the tremolo.  Unfortunately, I have no idea what kind or gauge of
> strings they were.  

I used to use GHS Boomers, .009 - .042 on my Carvin.......(same as I still
use on my Strat and LP)...... never had a problem staying in tune....

alan

>I just bought an older Carvin DC-200 with a Kahler (but not gold-plated :-).
>The strings that came on it stayed in tune wonderfully, no matter what you
>did with the tremolo.  Unfortunately, I have no idea what kind or gauge of
>strings they were.  Ever since I changed the strings it doesn't stay in
>tune worth beans, even if you don't use the tremolo (which I mostly don't).

    Well, the first question is did you give your strings a chance to
    stretch out?
    
    New strings will go out of tune on any unit until they are stretched.

    re: "What string gauges are on this thing?"
    
    I went out and bought a cheap little micrometer awhile back
    specifically for checking this sort of thing.  It's not really accurate
    enough for precision machine work or anything like that, but it seems
    good enough to check string gauges.  Cost me about $8.
    
    Greg

    RE: .17
    
    Hal, whatever kind of strings Alan Starr says he used are what were on
    the Carvin when you got it... I didn't change them in the short time
    I owned it...
    
    Tom

    It always amazes me how much our used equipment passes around the
    noting communitity!
    
    Greg

DB: Yes, I did stretch the strings.  They were still having problems after
begin on a week.  Actually, only the unwound strings give trouble, the
wound ones seem to do fine.

Alan and Tom:  Well, between the two of you I now know what *was* on 
the guitar. :-)  The problem might be that I have 010's on it now and
it was set up for 009's.

So, how *do* you setup a Kahler, anyway?

-Hal

    Hal,
    
    I'm not really sure how to set it up.  Back when I was playing a lot
    of guitar (I'M mostly keyboards these days) I would just give it
    a guitar repair guy about once every 6 months and he'd do the truss
    rod, the Kahler and anything else that needed to be done for basically
    about $10.
    
    I never learned how to do it.  But back when I was doing that it stayed
    in tune very well.
    
    One question: does the bar feel loose or tight?
    
    One quick way to shore it up (especially if you are not using the bar)
    is to make it tight.  Setup only seems critical when you have a loose
    feel (which is how I like mine).
    
    Call Carvin - they are VERY nice to deal with.

    It's been awhile, but if I remember correctly, there's an allen wrench
    adjustment on a Kahler (on the top of the torsion bar) which you can
    use to adjust the tension.  There are also two little springs on the
    bottom side which can be replaced to change the feel a little bit and
    various other minor adjustments.
    
    Greg

re: .25

>    It's been awhile, but if I remember correctly, there's an allen wrench
>    adjustment on a Kahler (on the top of the torsion bar) which you can
>    use to adjust the tension.  There are also two little springs on the
>    bottom side which can be replaced to change the feel a little bit and
>    various other minor adjustments.
    
There's two allen wrench adjustments on top.  I'll try them to see what
they do (being careful to remember where I found them :-) ).

I doubt if I'll mess with the springs.  It would require removing the whole
bridge to get at anything on the bottom (there's no opening on the back of
the guitar).

-Hal