Conference napalm::guitar

     What do ya' think, the stuff grows on tree's  ?
    
     Seriously thought, I suspect the person from Mandolin Bros. might
     be a little slanted on the issues. Not moralizing or saying
     that its right or wrong...but the environment is something that 
     everone talks about but there isn't any action done.
    
     JT

     I don't believe that a person carrying thier older Martins over
    borders will be arrested. The more that I look over this letter, the
    more biased it is.
    
        Brazillian rosewood is a cool material, but so is Ivory and you've
      got to draw the line somewhere.
    
     JMHO   SET/NOFLAMES
    

    
    	Hurray for real environmental actions/decisions!

    
    re: .3
    
    Ditto.  Maybe my guitars will become more valuable....;-)
    
    guy

    I'm sort of curious about how a customs agent would tell the difference
    between a guitar made of Brazilian versus (say) Indian rosewood. Play it
    (boy, that sounds good, must be Brazilian)? Take a chip and run it
    through a mass spec? If you really know how to look at it you can tell
    the difference, but it's not guaranteed.

    I support protecting the rain forests, but I have trouble seeing how
    restricting movement of instruments made before the ban would accomplish
    that. 

    Buy graphite guitars and have a clear concience
    
    Nigel
    

    re: .5
    
    From my experience with numerious customs officials, the burden of
    proof lies with you. It would be up to you to actually prove it is
    Indian rather than Brazilian rosewood. Even if you were able to do
    this (I can't imagine how), customs agents are a finicky bunch and
    may decide to impound your property anyway because of the way you
    look or because of something his spouse said that morning etc. 

     I could just see that same sort of letter, written by the Ivory
     dealers of America or the Whale merchants of Japan group. If one
     were to venture to foriegn soil , I'm sure one could obtain the proper
     forms, etc for the trip. I think if John Q. Public takes his beatup
     Guitar case and acoustic, the customs guys would be more concerned
     with finding other things that may be hidden inside of it.
    
     JT

    
    
     Maybe you could leave your prized Martin at home, because as you know
     once there are exceptions to the rules, companies make a fortune
     getting around them and subverting the whole reason for the original
     ban.
    
           JT

    I'm not saying the people from Mandolin Brothers don't have an interest
    here, clearly they do.  However, they are *not* asking for provisions
    to import raw Brazilian rosewood, only to transport instruments already
    constructed across foreign boundries.  I do not think this is
    unreasonable.  Brazilian rosewood has been a *primary* componant in the
    construction of musical instruments for decades, there are literally
    thousands of these instruments.
    
    Perhaps someone like Mandolin Bros. who has to deal with the
    legislation all the time can actually continue to do some of their
    business that way, but as a poor ignorant musician, I do not think it's
    fair for me to risk having my Les Paul confiscated because I didn't
    know I had to have a permit to take it somewhere!  Perhaps you have
    enough money to go buy a couple more when your's are taken from you,
    but I cannot afford to lose a guitar that means a lot to me that way.
    
    Granted, I have never personally done any international travel, and if
    I did, I most likely wouldn't take my guitar, but if the occasion
    arose, I might.  I'd hate to think that I might not be able to return
    home with it.
    
    Incidentally, it's my understanding that the logging of Brazilian
    rosewood has *very* little to do with it's endangered status.  The real
    threat is the people down there that are BURNING this valuable resource
    to clear land for farms and ranches.  Who clearly have no concept of
    what they're doing, since the earth in the rain forest only has about 2
    inches of soil nutrient depth, so it'll only be useful for agriculture
    for a couple of years.
    
    The people I feel sorry for are the small independant luthiers who have
    stockpiled that wood for years.  Many of them have enough to make a lot
    of guitars.  If their business requires selling to foreign markets,
    then they're screwed.  Most of these type people don't make a lot of
    money to start with and any significant loss of business will probably
    mean that they'll go out of business.  That's terribly sad.
    
    I also imagine that this new ruling will be devistating for companies
    like Martin, and Gibson, and others who do a lot of exporting and have
    stockpiles of the wood already.
    
    On the other hand, perhaps this will help keep the foreign collector's
    hands off the quality instruments in the affected countries and more of
    them will become available to those of use living there.  I don't know. 
    I guess we'll have to wait and see.
    
    Greg

    Greg,  
    I wouldn't take too many of the early replies to this note too seriously
    or personally.  I am not referring to any note in particular.  Both (or
    all) sides of this issue have quite serious implications --- few of
    which are even known or contemplated at this point --- but what you may
    be getting are initial knee-jerk reactions, sound bites, slogans, and
    bumper-sticker reactions.  Once again, I am not referring to any note
    in particular.
    \Gary 

    
    I still stick to the knee-jerk reaction of my earlier note.
    
    In .0 there is only speculation about the *possibility* of this
    being a problem for the individual bringing his or her prized 
    git-fiddle out of the country.  What seemed fairly sure was 
    that people shipping rosewood for the purpose of selling it
    would have these problems.  
    
    My interpretations may or may not prove to be the case, but I
    don't believe .0 offers quite enough info to be sure one way
    or another.
    
    guy

    Gary, others, I'm not trying to be defensive here.  In fact, I haven't
    even decided whether this is a real threat or a potential benefit from
    the musician's standpoint.  It would seem that the people with the most
    to lose would be the builders and people selling instruments to foreign
    clients.
    
>    In .0 there is only speculation about the *possibility* of this
>    being a problem for the individual bringing his or her prized 
>       git-fiddle out of the country.
    
    The only part that I read as "speculation" was whether it would
    actually be enforced for musicians travelling with their instruments. 
    It said that the way the treaty was worded, the people enforcing this
    treaty could have the option of confiscating instruments.  
    
    If you don't worry about that, then that's cool, but it would certainly
    make me think twice about taking a prized guitar with me outside the US
    after this goes into effect Saturday.
    
>    What seemed fairly sure was  that people shipping rosewood for the
>    purpose of selling it would have these problems.  
    
    It prohibits importing/exporting raw Brazilian rosewood, period. 
    The question is, what about making it easier for people to transport
    instruments already constructed using these materials.  Most of the
    time when something like this is passed, there's some sort of
    "Grandfather Clause" to accomodate this sort of thing.  In this case,
    it would appear there isn't.
    
    To me, that doesn't seem very fair, given the huge number of
    instruments which have been made with that type of wood.
    
    Greg

    I enter this merely as a fact, and not to bolster anyone's position:
    
    According to "The Martin Guitar Tonal Analysis", a brochure printed by
    The Martin Guitar Company in September, 1988:
    
    "	Brazilian Rosewood is considered nearly extinct and is extremely
    	expensive if available at all.  Martin rosewood models before
    	mid-1969 were made with Brazilian rosewood.  {...}  Brazilian
    	rosewood is occasionally available now in very limited quantities
    	for custom or special limited edition orders only. "
    
    B.R. is also known as Dalbergia nigra, or "jacaranda".
    \Gary

I had heard that Brazilian rosewood had been declared extinct.  If that is true,
then I don't understand the reasoning behind all this.  

Jim

RE: .14

So, a late 70ies Martin OM-45 is not made out of Brazilian 
rosewood?  

FeliX.

No standard production Martin guitars (including 45 models) have been made with 
Brazilian rosewood since early 1970.  There have been a small number of Special 
Editions and Custom order guitars made with Brazilian rosewood, but these are 
exceptions and very few in number.  If you have a late '70s OM-45 and you are
not sure if it is Brazilian, then it probably isn't.

Jim

From what I know, Greg is correct in that the actual cutting and milling of 
Brazilian rosewood is NOT the cause of the problems in the rain forests - it's the 
clear cutting and BURNING of timber (which includes BR) for farmland.

Still, the point here is that there are a very large number of BR guitars in 
existance and people like the folks at Gruhn and Mandolin make a part of their 
living trading these instruments. It seems a bit radical to make the movement of 
such things illegal. BTW, someone with a bit of experience can tell BR from Indial 
rosewood from mahogany. I don't consider myself an expert, but I seldom ge them 
confused.

As for the recent and current availability of BR, it is correct that Martin 
discontinued the use of BR in production intruments in mid-1969. When they began 
making custom and special edition instruments, which I believe was about 1979-80, 
some instruments appeared with BR. I have a 1985 OM-45 Custom with BR, as well as 
a 1991 Santa Cruz Tony Rice Brazilian. Many small makers have wood that they have 
been aging (air drying) for special applications and instruments. They should not 
be penalized.

I don't want the rain forests depleted. The number of trees that will produce 
boards large enough and good enough for instruments is very small. There are still 
a lot of Brazilian rosewood trees. The species is not extinct.

However this is resolved, those of you that have BR guitars will probably see a 
rise in value.

Paul

   I'm in the process of making a bass body for one of my extra necks. I've
been trying to find as much info as possible on the subject. Anyway, I came 
across a book called The Complete Manual of Woodworking. Inside it lists 
hardwoods that are "Endangered" due to mass de-forestation. I don't know if
these are truely endangered or just woods that you need to try not to use.
I'm taking the info literally. 
   Some listed here are generally used for woodworking, but some used in 
musical instruments. Here's the list:

Name:           Species:
=======================================
Afrormosia      Pericopsis elata
Brazilwood      Guilandia echinata
Bubinga         Guibourtia dmdusei
Cocobolo        Dalbergia retusa
Ebony           Diospyros ebenum
Concalo Alves   Astronium fraxinifolium
Jelutong        Dyera costulata
Kingwood        Dalbergia cearensis
Red Lauan       Shorea spp.
Brazilian 
     Mahogany   Swietenia macrophylla
Lignum Vitae    Guaiacum officinale
Obeche          Triplochiton scleroxylon
African Padauk  Pterocarpus soyauxii
Purpleheart     Peltogyne spp.
Brazilian
     Rosewood   Dalbergia nigra
Indian
     Rosewood   Dalbergia latifolia
Satinwood       Chloroxylon swietenia
Teak            Tectona grandis
Tulipwood       Dalbergia frutescens
Utile           Entandrophragma utile


/John