Conference napalm::guitar

    Midi is an industry standard which was formed mainly for synthesizers
    but has carried over to many facets of the musical instrument industry.
    MIDI stands for "Musical Instrument Digital Interface" and it is sort
    of like the comm line on a computer. It allows synthesizers to talk
    to computers, drum machines, sequencers, etc. MIDI also includes the
    standard by which information is tranmitted, not just the hardware.
    MIDI is now included on all kinds of signal processors, like multi-efx,
    equalizers, reverbs, midi-mixers, etc.
    
    A Rack is basically a box with steel rails 19" apart, which electronic
    equipment can be mounted in. Most of digitals large computers, disk
    drives, etc. are housed in large steel 19" racks. Racks are also used
    for P.A. systems, guitar efx, keyboard equipment, etc. They have been
    around for years, but musicians have been using them more and more over
    the last 10-15 years.
    
    A midi-rack-puke is a musician hooked on racks and racks of midi-controlled
    equipment. Many people in this conferance have bought just one rack-
    mount processor, and within a very short time, they become hooked on
    rack-mount equipment. I for one have a 14-space (24") rack full of
    gear, plus a 3-space rack with a power amp, and I am shopping for new
    racks for more gear. Perhaps "rack-mount-junky" is a better word. I've
    just got to get my *fix*, and every trip to a music store sends me into
    a cold sweat.
    
    Hope this helps !!
    Mark
    

    Everyone knows that your musical prowess is directly related to the
    number of rack spaces you can fill. More is better.
    
    :^)
    
    Edd

    Didn't 'Coop invent that term...?   *8^)
    
    
    Rude

    His picture is in the dictionary next to the term!
    
    Mike

    Yep, this phrase is definitely his !	8^)
    
    Scary

      And a true M.R.P. is totally adamant about the advantages of
    rack systems over stacks/combos. As a matter of fact he would 
    call them antiquated. Hmmmmmmm - yer right , that's J.C. for sure!
    
    						---/boom/---
    
    					(a somewhat milder M.R.P.)

    
    I agree.  Looked like j.c.'s forehead is starting to resemble
    somewhat like a rack space... ;)
    
    J-Dot 

    Far out !  My own topic !!
    
    Thanks !
    
    jc (Who wants to know whats wrong with my forehead, J-Dot !)
    
    PS - See you Colorado Spring-ers tomorrow night !

    It seems I see a lot of people going to separate dedicated effects 
    components lately.  For example, separate units for each of the
    following:  chorus, reverb, delay, etc.  Seems to me you'd get for 
    bang for the buck with a multieffect.  So what are the reasons for such
    a setup?  Would this allow for greater signal integrity and/or 
    flexibility?
    
    Mike

    More lights.
    
    :)
    
    Well, seriously, I dunno.  Why have 4 boxes to do what *one* can do VERY 
    well ?  
    
    jc (WHo never noticed what Mike is pointing out)

>    More lights.
    
    There's gotta be more to it than that, although it's true!  I've seen
    some racks that look like Baghdad on Wednesday night.
    
    Mike

    
    
    re: single FX units
    
    	I hope it's a trend, cuz MRPs will sell all of their 
    multiFX boxes real cheap and I'll buy 'em..
    
    :-)
    
    

    I think it's wierd.  I don't think I'd sell off my DSP128+ unless it
    was to buy a TC2290 (for $2K + !!!)...Ergo, NEVER !
    
    RE: Lights
    
    The SP1000 has power LEDS on it to show how much your pumpin' out.
    They look like two huge sine waves with three different colors.  I try to 
    see how long I can keep them all lit  ;)    (125wpc)  Nice light show.
    
    Other than that I guess thats about it for me, 'cept for the level
    indicators on the DSP, Mp1 and the wacko lights showing my noise gate
    operating.  The Kitty hawk doesn't have any lights, really.
                                                               

    
    	Mike, I think it's just a matter of taste and what you like.
    Personnally, I didn't anything out of my DSP except the reverb.
    Another example is EJ, who I saw with a MXR (?) flanger rack mount
    job.  He probably is just knocked out by the sound thus nothing 
    else will do.

The SP has three led colors???


My oh my I've only seen two, no wonder I didn't think it was that loud, I must
not be driving it right!

dbii

    Makes sense Pat.  That's what I meant about signal integrity.  Members
    of the Brotherhood of Tone(tm) are true tone freaks.  I can see getting
    the best available for the most common effects to really enhance your
    sound.  
    
    For example, the Boss CE300 for chorusing, Roland SDE3000 for delays, 
    and the Roland SRV2000 for reverbs (do you see a trend here? :-)).  These 
    3 units are supposedly what everyone in LA are using.  This trio is 
    starting to become fairly common around here too.
    
    Mike

    I had a chance to play my Ibanez thru THE MAJOR MIDI RACK PUKE 
    (Coop's) for about an hour on Sunday night.  I pretty much gave equal 
    time to the KH Quattro and the ADA MP1 (first time with both for me).
    
    This setup SCREAMS!  I lusted with envy the whole time I used it ;-)
    
    I did notice that the Quattro sounded real similar to my M1, except for
    the massive gain on the hot lead channel. Insane Gain for sure, but the
    MP1 has some truly INSANE GAIN settings.
    
    Rack-Puke-Wannabe (hold the MIDI please ;-))

    <blush>

    Something new for the rack:  Crown has a new Macro Reference series amp
    out with really cool lights on the front ;-)
    
    Mike

    Yeah, but how heavy is it ??
    
    jc (The one and only)

    heavy enough to power your rack AND your house mains ;-)

    Oh boy, a rack mounted DC300A  Ack!
    
    jc

    no, no, no, no.  The Macro series is much more powerfull (and more
    pleasing to the eye ;-)) than the DC300A.  Satriani had about 10 - 8
    space racks full of them when he was here in Phoenix.
    
    Mike

        MT-600  - approx.  270 watts per channel stereo, 600 mono.
        MT-1200 - approx.  500 watts per channel stereo, 1200 mono.
        MT-2400 - approx.  550 watts per channel stereo, 2000 mono.
        MT-10000 - approx. 9,000 watts mono only into 1 ohm.
        
        The MT-600, MT-1200, MT-2400 are 2RU tall, but have to be bolted
        to  a back rack, as they are 16" deep. They weigh in around 50
        lbs.,  approx.
        
        The MT-10000 weighs in at 95 lbs and is around 7RU tall. It needs
        three  pahse power.
        
        All the MacroTech units have optional plugin modules for things
        like  crossovers, balanced  lines, IQ-2000 computer control, etc.
        
        The IQ-2000 software  runs on Mac's or IBM compatibles  and
        allows one to control up to  2000 amplifiers.
        
        There is also the Micro Tech series, which  is the same, without
        the plugin module capability.
        
        And there is the Macro Reference - 5 RU tall, 750 watts per
        channel stereo, 1500 watts mono, dual velocity feedback loop,
        the logos and indicators are all lit  electroluminisently, with
        signal  present, OEDP, and other light up indicators.  It also
        accepts the plugin modules and a special D/Aplugin is being
        developed to enable one to run a digital mixer  directly in.
        
        Bob

    re: Crown Macro Reference series amps
    
    I would think these would suck for use with a guitar rig.  With a
    stereo or PA rig, you want the sound preserved as closely as can be to
    the original sound, but with a guitar rig, you want the power amp to
    color the sound.  That's why companies like TubeWorks go way out of
    their way to design solid state power amps that attempt to color your
    sound the way a dirty sounding tube amp does.
    
    I used a really clean SS power amp with my rack rig for awhile and
    hated the sound.  Now I use it to power monitors and such.
    
    JMO,
    Greg                                         

    I gotta have that 10000 doo-hickey !!
    
    I'd need a fork truck to move my rack, and a speaker system similar
    to the one in "Back To The Future" but WOW !  Thats a HEAP of power!
    
    ;)

    I'd be interested in hearing how it sounds, while letting the preamp do
    the coloring/distorting.
    
    Mike

    
       I would say - leave the P.A. power amps for the P.A.
    
       If there wasn't a reason for all the new power amps geared
    to guitar rigs we wouldn't have seen so many new ones added to the
    market recently. I'll take a *heavy* sound over a HEAVY amp!
    
       Guitar Power Amps:
    
       MosValve - looks like the prime choice for solid-state
       Metaltronix - nice but o.o.p. (out of production)
       Hughes & Kettner - mono half rack size, have to check it out.
       Hafler - new product from established power amp manufacturer.
       Marshall - Tube and Mosfet, probably sounds great, not cheap!
       Peavey - the perennial price buster, tube mono/stereo and s.s.
    
    	...see specific manufacturer notes for particulars.
    
    							-B()()M-

re :- 1 you forgot semour duncan

they're now making preamp/amp combo's and they soudn like they're probably hot!

dbii

    FYI - I tried the S-D preamp/amp rack stuff. - YuckOOOOOOO !!!
    
    Bow-wow !
    

    
        A friend of mine had the SD convertible amp. It didn't go woof---
    
    
        ---it went poof. As in ultra-unreliable.
    
    
       I don't like the arrangement of the SD preamp. One set of tone
    controls! YUCK! On top of that Coop sez "Woof!".
       King Tone should be dethroned! 
    
    					-B()()M-

    My teacher has an SD combo.  It's been in the shop more often than not.
    Good thing he has his Boogies for gigs.
    
    Mike

The SD convertable was a great idea, and a very good sounding amp that had
reliability problems. I was sort of hoping (but not that seriuosly since I'm 
a kitty/midi rack puke) that the preamp/amp combo was nice. I hear good things
about the 80/40 amps bnut haven't seen one yet..

dbii

    The new Musician's Friend has a MIDI primer for guitarists in it.

I gotta say this:

I saw a local metal band this weekend.  The guitarist had a *25* space rack
and a pair of marshall 4x12's.  I thought I was bad - this rack was
JAMMED with stuff (only saw it from a distance - don't know what was
in it)...

My point:

It was WAY overkill !  The guy had NOTHING but problems with it thru their set.
Is MIDI Rack Pukeness so much of a disease that people can't show ANY control ?

jc (Who's 8 space rack has three open slots)

    I rest my case!

bah,
 If you set up a midi rack correctly you should have little to no problems.
I've been running mine for months now with NO glitches at all...and getting
constant raves about my tone...

But truely, technology isn't for everyone...

dbii

    re: .36
    
    This is a perfect example of "rack envy" (similar to "penis envy", but
    in a slightly more musical context.
    
    ;^)
    
    FWIW, the guy with the 24 slot rack said he didn't have any trouble
    with the rack, it was just his wireless screwing up (and guitars going
    out of tune and him having "guitar techs" that didn't retune them for
    him).  
    
    It's not all the way full, there are about four empty slots in it, but
    he's got one of those rack drawer things in there to put cables and
    stuff in.  The heart of it is a Mesa/Boogie head rack mounted in the
    bottom.  I've noticed that a lot with people that like big racks, seems
    like the Boogies react better (ie don't lose a lot of their tone) with
    a lot of effects then some other types of amps.
    
    Greg
    

I didn't envy him.  I felt bad, cuz he's gotta lug that monster around,
and I bet his tone isn't much better than anyone elses...

Now I *AM* envious of Steve Vais rack...  :)

jc

      
      I'm envious of anyone with a rack bigger than mine!!!!
    
      Ya got a measuring stick Coop?
    
    
    						B-} X 100  -B()()M-

This thing was on wheels - definately wouldn't wanna hump that thing around.

jc (Who has the rack now needs 6 more 4x12's... ;)

    
    
    Did it have a tow bar and licence plate too? 
    

I got a WICKED nice complement the other day -

I was gigging with my rack, and had my Marshall sitting on my 4x12 (switched 
off)...  Guy from a well known local band came up to me between sets and
sez "Man, thats the BEST sounding Marshall I've ever heard - did you have it 
modified ??"

Wagagaga - I said "No, thats my rack"

He's got two marshalls - a JCM900 and a wicked old MArshall plexi.

Made my day.

cj

    get outta here!  you made that up!

    -2
    
    Yeah, get real!  If I had a 900 and a plexi, I wouldn't even NOTICE
    other people's sound out of having such a big head about mine!
    
    ;^)

    Lights facinate children ...   8^)
    
    Scary

    
        ..Goo Goo, Gaa Gaa 
    
    					
    
    
    						-LEDboom-

    
    Of course, if this guy didn't notice that your Marshall wasn't even
    turned on how swift can he be?
    
    8-)
    
    Kevin
    

    Touche' ...  8^)
    
    Does Fisher-Price make rack gear ?   Does Health-Tex make stage-wear ?
    Do elephants really come in quarts ?   8^)
    
    Scary

Hey Kev,

How many Marashalls have you seen with burnt out lights in their switches.
Two of the 800's I'd had had burnt lights in 'em.  :)

Hey the lights be cool, but the Midi Rack Puke WAILS again !

jc (I said OPINIONATED !  It works for me !)

      
    
       FWIW ... I've got at least 72 LED's/lamps in my KH/RI/SP MIDI rack!
    
       I'll count 'em all for sure if you want. Hey Coop - I'll match you
    unless you still got that Hush unit with all the LED's in it!
    
    							-B()()M-

    The hush unit is a big LED addition to any rack.  They move, even!
    ;)
    
    Scary, you're killin me!!
    
    Buck, who may go down to check out Kev Mcdonough tonight...anyone else
    wanna go?

I gopt some major hush-lights, but the biggies are my PL-Plus, SP1000
(with Sinwave-lights).  Boom has the coolest light show though - that DT-1
has the most bitchin' lights since the storbotuner !  :)

jc

>How many Marashalls have you seen with burnt out lights in their switches.
>Two of the 800's I'd had had burnt lights in 'em.  :)
    
    Of all the Marshalls I've seen, I only remember one in which the switch
    light didn't work, a 12 year old JMP 50wt MV head I looked into buying. 
    
    The light in the 800 you sold me wasn't burnt out, it was WIRED WRONG!
    Works fine now that the amps all fixed up...
    
    Greg
                                                

...speaking of midi I'll be exploring the wonderful world of using a volume
pedal as a midi controller beginning tonight....

dbii

Prepare for blown minds - 

Tom (the other guitarist in HardBall) will probably buy my Mp1
and SP1000 (he's sick of his Marshall).  With the bucks I'm thinking 
I'm gonna have a custom rack  built with a 2550 and 4500 Marshall mounted 
in it, a Furman PL PLus, a DSP128+, Audio Technica wireless, MIDI octopus, 
and a Rocktron Hush IICX.  All this into a pair of 4x12's - stereo.  

What do we think ??  Could htis be way cool ??

Naturally, I'll keep my MIDI controller.  :^)

jc  (Ready for a change)

    How much does he want for the Marshall??

I think he wants to keep it.  But he'd probably sell it for $500.
He thinks it's collectable cuz it's a JMP.

jc

>I think he wants to keep it.  But he'd probably sell it for $500.
>He thinks it's collectable cuz it's a JMP.
    
    He thinks wrong?!  $500 for a USED 50wt JMP might be a bahgin in
    Colorado, but it's financial sodomy in Massachusettes!  Tell him
    it's worth $350 in mint cond.

    "Financial Sodomy"...great, that's just the name I need for my new
    band....
    
    						Brian

    Five bills?  No way!
    
    There's nothing collectable about a JMP.  I know a guy here in the
    Springs that had one in MINT condition that had been professionally
    modded even, with EL34 conversion, new tubes, AND an Anvil flight case
    (!), and he couldn't draw ANY interest in the thing at $350-$400.  
    
    Tom's isn't even close to the condition this one was in and doesn't sound
    as good, I suspect it might sell in the $250-$300 range.  Not much
    market for single channel amps that don't do "high gain" these days
    unless they're vintage, and there's nothing vintage about 1980.
    
    Greg

    IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE - Just call me stupid!
    
    My co-guitarist has been messing about with his ME5 and a Korg M1.  But
    the question I need answered is:
    
    	Can you use a guitar trough the ME5 to trigger the M1, and if so
    how?
    
    Bob

    Re: .63
    
    The answer is: Nope.
    
    						Brian

    So has rack technology evolved to a point where you can safely replace
    most amps or is a combo/head rig still the way to go?
    
    Mike

    Loaded question! Very subjective.
    
    My opinion is that the conventional combo or head/speaker is still
    the most popular type rig sold.
    
    There are still pockets of people using racks full of gear but it
    is more the exception than the rule. I would say if you are 
    determined to put together a rack and get good sound, it is certainly
    possible to do, but you have to be real selective on gear, and the
    preamp and power amp should by all means be all-tube. 
    
    I have a rack at home with a Mesa Boogie preamp and a few other
    goodies. I also have a Fender Deluxe reverb. I can tell you that
    the rack mostly collects dust. The deluxe reverb get's the most 
    use by far. 
    
    Mark
    
    
    Mark
    

    I guess I'm ready to say that MRP is now a very viable way to go
    for home recording.
    
    I've been pretty impressed with some of the things I've heard recorded
    with the GSP-2102 (you should hear this Steve Howe-esque guitar tone
    that some friends of mine got on this Internet Gentle Giant tribute
    thing that's being done).
    
    But interestingly enough, I think the GSP-2102 sounds better on tape
    (going direct) than it does live.  I'd still rather have an amp/cab
    for live stuff but I'm sold on it for recording on a budget.

    I'm happy with my rack setup.
    It may be that I could have gotten a better sound by running the
    standard head / spkr deal, but I was tired of carrying around all the
    extras to make that work.
    
    I got tired of plugging in effects, then using duct tape to attach the 
    tuner so I could see it, etc.   Now everything is racked and
    pre-plugged in.   Wireless, tuner, digital delay, and compressor....
    
    I don't think I had to give up any "tone" to do this type of setup.  In
    fact, most of the people I play with say it's the best electric sound 
    they've heard.  (apologies to Coop)   Of course, it didn't happen by
    accident.  I didn't buy a all-in-one effects/preamp/widget converter.
    :-)  (do widgets really need converting?)
    I picked out each piece for a specific need/purpose and used studio
    quality parts (no stomp boxes or 20 year old Big Muff pedals)
    
    Like the message before this....  THis is my subjective and loaded 
    opinion.
    
    Mike
    

    RE: .65
    >> So has rack technology evolved to a point where you can safely
    >> replace most amps or is a combo/head rig still the way to go?
    
    	I personally don't think so. From what I've seen with other
    	musicians, bands I've seen I'd say that the 1996 trend is to
    	go with amps and (believe it or not) stomp boxes! I feel that
    	rack technology may have made great strides in the replacement
    	theory, but the public may not be ready for that yet. Hey, watch
    	MTV on some of the live concerts and what do you see? Heads and
    	cabinets are still there. Rack "efx" are the way to go for
    	most, but rack preamps and pwr amps with guitarist aren't there
    	yet IMO. At least from what I've seen...  ofcourse this could all
    	change next month.
    
    	;^)
    
    
    			Rock on,
    				Fred

    I believe that the technology is there, but the market is flooded with
    mostly mediocre stuff. To get great guitar sound from a rack, you 
    really have to use eseteric gear. IMHO the only "great" sounding guitar
    preamps are all-tube and are made by companies such as Mesa Boogie, 
    Demeter, Groove Tubes, Marshall, and H&K. The same thing goes for
    power amps.
    
    I find with racks it's so tempting to add in layered effects processors
    that do 10 things at a time, that a lot of people end up masking
    whatever tone their equipment can produce. I also believe that the
    power amp has to be sized according to the venue. A 100 wpc power amp
    will only sound good when it's used in a large room and it's cranked.
    For playing in a small rehearsal space or in a studio, you really need
    a very small, low powered amp. 
    
    The system is not complete without the "right" speakers. You really
    have to be using cabs that are specifically designed for electric
    guitar such as Marshall 4x12's or smaller cabs but they must have
    the right drivers. IMHO efficient loudspeakers (ie: EVM's JBL's) 
    should not be used for electric guitar. Electric guitar sounds best
    cranked through either a Jensen, Celestion or Emminence speaker.
    
    IMHO the worst-case scenario is where someone is using solid state
    preamps/power amps with some kind of compressor, a multi-efx box,
    and a Thiele ported speaker enclosure with EVM's. 
    
    Mark
    

    The discussion of going with tubes in your rack gear is obvious.  To 
    quote Mr. Scott: "You cannot change the laws of physics".  :-)
    If you woudn't be caught dead with a solid state amp, don't expect a 
    SS rack unit to please you.     In the same way, nobody buys an all-
    tube head with a built in compressor/flange/gadget....   
    
    Basically, what you buy when you get good quality rack gear is the same
    stuff as in the separate head - only the wood cabinet is removed and
    19" rack ears are added...    The only reason it might not be the 
    same as the head/cabinet would be the fault of the manufacturer.
    
    If they *aren't* using the same quality gear in a rack mount, complain
    to the mfgr.  (or take the box off yourself and add the rackears...)
    
    Mike  -who has done just that more than once...
    

    I have to agree that the rack solution isn't for everyone...  And if
    you want a rack to even come CLOSE to a tube amp, then you've got to 
    spend some dough on the components (i.e., tube amps and preamps ain't
    cheap).  I will say tho that PV has some NICE power amps; Classic 
    50/50, 60/60 and 120/120.  I used a 60/60 for a weekend and was floored 
    at the sound I got (compared to my SP1000 Metaltronix amp).  I ran
    right off and ordered my Marshall 9200.
    
    One thing thats nice about racks is the portability thing...But when
    you slap a 60lb all-tube amp in a rack, then it's not too portable any
    more.  My rack weighs 85lbs.  :-(  'course, all tube, shreds humans at 
    60 paces, and is still plug-n-play...
    

    I forgot to mention Peavey. I've tried the 50/50 and it sounds great
    with the right preamp. I believe the 50/50 is the only one with
    a resonance control. The 60/60 and 120/120 are older units.
    Mesa Boogie recently introduced a new very small tube power
    amp which provides 20 wpc. It uses EL84 power tubes. It seems
    like a nice idea and perfectly sized for a small rig with a couple
    of 1x12 speaker cabs. It is rather pricey though (as you would
    expect from MB) in the $499 range.
    
    I can't help but wonder if a Peavey 120/120 would be suitable for
    a small PA system, for someone that wanted tube-tone for their
    vocals, acoustic, etc.
    
    I would imagine you could probably find a great deal on used Peavey
    power amps. Although these are great amps, they never really made
    much of a mark on the market.
    
    Mark

    I forgot to mention one thing. I would never place a power amp
    (especially a tube power amp) in a rack with other gear as the
    weight gets out of control fast. I would mount the power amp in
    a separate rack all by itself with a little extra room to breath.
    
    I believe the Peavey 50/50 power amp weighs about 35 pounds. Not
    exactly a featherweight, but manageable.
     
    Mark

    I thought tubes-only was implied by now.  I think most of us in here
    know that's the new natural law.

    RE: 1874.70
    
    I agree and disagree...  my opinion is whatever works for the
    individual. It could be the vintage purist at heart (which is fine)
    looking for a specific tone, or it's that 13 year old thrash metalhead
    that's looking for a completely different sound. Experience is key in
    my opinion and we all change our tone at one time or another.
    
    Whatever makes us happy right?
    
    
      Fred (who loves his Peavey MX hybrid EVM loaded combo and his
            Fender Vibroverb)

>    One thing thats nice about racks is the portability thing...But when
>    you slap a 60lb all-tube amp in a rack, then it's not too portable any
>    more.  My rack weighs 85lbs.  :-(  'course, all tube, shreds humans at 
>    60 paces, and is still plug-n-play...
    
    Hi Jeff!  I was thinking about this today.  For your 85 lbs., you get a
    lot more versatility than a Kitty Hawk M1 or Fender Twin, both of which
    are heavier.
    
    Mike