Conference napalm::guitar

    Contact Danny Weber at Rainbo::Weber.....he's a Gibson "expert".
    I don't know if he can do the work, but he can probably give ya some
    more info.
    
    Steve D.

There are dozens of good Luthiers in the Central Mass area...
MacDuffs in Shrewsbury does good guitar work.

IMHO, if you mess with a guitar and change it from "factory" 
then you are gonna ruin the guitar in the eyes of a collector...
However if it's your baby, you won't sell it so who cares !  :)
Tuning pegs are not such a biggie, but routing or cutting wood in 
anyway would effect the value, again...IMHO.

jc

    I've talked with many vintage equipment dealers, and they've all
    agreed that modifications to vintage instruments does indeed lower
    the resale value.
    
    You may also want to consider the fact that changing from the
    trapeze to the stop may have an effect on the tonal quality of
    the instrument.  The trapeze tailpiece, though perhaps not as
    attractive as the stop, allows the top of the guitar to resonate
    more freely than the stop with its stud mounting system.
    
    Steve
    
    

>   The trapeze tailpiece, though perhaps not as
>   attractive as the stop, allows the top of the guitar to resonate
>   more freely than the stop with its stud mounting system.
    
    Actually, this combination reduces the sustain a bit. Stud mounting
    is an improvement as far as sustain goes.

    The studs require that you drill for the inserts (this had better
    happen using a drill press and a form to hold the body at the
    correct position, otherwise, you get studs that are not parallel with
    each other, and don't intersect the tailpiece properly - a great way
    to totally ruin the value of the guitar), and press them in (again,
    you need a form to support the guitar body). I don't know if the center
    piece of wood is as wide on the trapeze bridge style body as in the
    stop-tailpiece body (it's never been published, at least anywhere that
    I've seen).

    I've been toying with this same idea, but I want to rid the guitar of
    the tunamatic bridge & have wondered if the studs will have enough wood
    to grab onto. Hate to ruin a nice guitar to find out that there isn't...

								Jens

    re -1
    
    In my reply, I wasn't referring to sustain, which I agree, would
    likely be enhanced with the stop/stud design. Sustain is a measure
    of how long the string continues to vibrate after being struck...
    I was referring to resonation which has to do with vibration of
    the sound board.  Obviously, there is an interaction between the
    two... just wanted to clarify my point and make the distinction.
    
    Steve

    For what it's worth, my ES-345, circa 1972, has had this mod done
    (before I bought it). It supposedly does improve the sustain and fatten
    the tone. I can't say offhand whether the solid block inside is wide
    enough to support the insets, but there is no indication that it was
    modified inside in any way, so I assume it is. A good luthier would
    probably know. There have been many suggestions in this conference for
    where to go for repair work in the past. It would probably help if
    peopl knew where you were located.
    
    - Ram

    These conversions are quite common. The center block is the same on
    regardless of the original hardware, so it is safe to do.
    
    Early '70's instruments don't have a lot of "vintage" value to lose. If
    professionally done, this should not hurt the value. 
    
    Personally, I think that semi's with stop tailpieces sound better than
    with trapezes, unless you are using them strictly for jazz--but in that
    case, I wouldn't recommend a semi anyway. For GB, blues, rock, fusion
    and all the things semi's do well, stop tp's are the way to go.
    
    Danny W.

RE: -.1>  Early '70's instruments don't have a lot of "vintage" value to 
RE: -.1>lose. 
 
Yet...

;)

      A conversion to a hardtail on a ES-335 really isn't a big deal.
    I have a friend that converted his to a "stop" tailpiece because
    he was having MEGA problems with strings holding its tune and
    finally got fed up with it. He proceeded to get out the drill and 
    "VeRy CaReFuLlY" drilled his pilot holes and then worked his way 
    up to the correct size for the studs. After that he played that guitar 
    more than his others! He eventually sold it for ~$700.00, which
    was ~$100.00 *more* than he bought it for,(only because he was bored
    with the tone of it). So IMHO...  if the modification is done
    properly it *may* not matter to 95% of the guitarist out there.
    
    Now...  where's that drill motor???   ;^)
    
    
    Fred

    A well done stop tailpiece conversion rarely has any effect on the
    value of a 335, vintage or otherwise, since the most desirable 9from a
    vintage standpoint) ES's had factpry stop tailpieces anyway.
    
    To the question of whether a '70's ES will have vintage value in 20
    years, what difference does it make now? Any guitar could be valuable
    in 20 years, even the pointy headed ones. Does that mean that
    modifcations that make them better guitars should never be made?
    
    If the question was whether to strip the guitar and paint it lime green
    (or whatever color won the "which color looks best on stage?" award),
    I'd strongly suggest leaving it alone and finding a lime green guitar.
    If the guitar in question was a '64 345, it might lose a little value,
    but would actually be easier to sell. An early '70's has about the same
    value either way.
    
    In 20 years, we may all be dead (I feel morbid today), so why worry
    about it. It's not a one of a kind, or even very rare, collector's
    instrument now--it's a great player's guitar that will be even better
    after modification.
    
    Danny W.
    who_never_mods_his_guitars_but_would_not_want_a_trapeze_335_anyway

    How far away from the saddle is the stop tailpeice, like on a les paul?
    

	
	I want to buy an ES3**, probably a used 335 sunburst.  From 
	various notes it seems I should avoid ones built in the '70s, 
	but I don't know how to identify one.  Can someone tell me what
	to look for, validate and explain the significance of these 
	things:

	-  oval orange id tags are from the 50s & 60s
	-  white square tags are from the 70s
	-  what about the '80s?

	-  serial numbers used during 60s, 70s, 80s,

	-  imprints on the headstock (eg "made in usa")

	-  a volute
	
	-  other identifying features

	-  prefered vs features to avoid? (eg, stop vs trapeze tail)

	-  things to beware of (eg, neck problems)

	Thanks,
	Mike

	P.S.	What are good places to look for one in MA or sNH?
		I'm in the Marlboro area.

    I suggest you read note 1132
    
    Mark
    

	Thanks Mark,  I'll read it to see if it answers 
	my questions.
  
	Unfortunately it didn't turn up when I did my 
	dir/title=ES-3, or ES3.

	I did check notes 118, 306, 996, 1246, and this.
	Are there others that might also be of interest?

	Mike

	I'm going to be visiting in Atlanta (northern) next
	month and want to know if prices and selection for
	ES-3** are usually better down there vs in MA?  What 
	places would you recommend? 

	Also, since Nashville looks to be about 200 or so miles 
	away, is it worth a trip?  Would there be that much
	of a better selection and prices?  Where would you 
	suggest down there?

	Thanks,
	Mike

    
    There are a TON of shops in and around Atlanta.  Try Rhythm City for
    prices on the Gibsons.  (404) 237-9552.  Hey, while you're there try 
    out one of those Yamaha Image guitars, ok?  When you get to Atlanta,
    check the yellow pages and you'll see what I mean.
    
     -pat

Rhythm City will generally beat anybody's prices.  Atlanta Discount Music is 
also good.  These two compete head-to-head, especially when they know you're 
shopping both.

There are lots of others - Dirt Cheep, Metro Music, ...

Like the man said, look in the yellow pages.

Bob

	Well, I called about a dozen places, and checked out Rhythm City,
	Atlanta Discount, and for used - Midtown Music.

	Rhythm City defintely has the best selection and prices.  Before I 
	left I tried a Heritage 535 that was impressive, though I didn't 
	plug it in.  I've called Heritage for a catalogue so I can find out 
	more on them.  Quality did seem nicer than the 335s, though there 
	was this one natural 347 that put 'em ALL to shame.

	Atlanta discount gave me higher prices, and I didn't have time to
	go back again to really haggle.  They probably would match Rhythm
	city, but why bother ...

	For used, Midtown was a decent little shop.  Nice vintage stuff,
	though nothing that really grabbed me except a 1960 that was 
	already sold.  I also heard that Dixie Guitars is supposed to be
	a good vintage/used shop, though I didn't get to check them out.

	I also went to Mr. Music in Allston, MA.  They have about a
	dozen ES-335s.  Mostly 70s, a couple 80s, even an ES-369 which 
	was nice but really wierd.   It had gold bridge and tailpice with 
	chrome mountings, a neck with a volute but an 80s serial number, 
	a large odd-shaped headstock with red pinstriping and a 369 plate, 
	ebony (I think) fretboard with rectangle inlays, a 70s id tad 
	inside, gold tuners with a big "S" on them (Schallers?), and 
	(I think) a coil cut switch - though I don't really remember.  
	If you want a used LP, Strat, Tele, acoustic, etc. Mr. Music is a 
	great place having about 1-2 dozen of each.

	Mike

    A big swirly "S" is definately Schaller...
    
    jc (FWIW)

    re: .18
    
    I don't recall exactly what you're looking for, but I've looked at
    Heritage guitars in the past and have also perused the ES collection at
    Mr. Music's. As far as Heritage goes, I've been told the company was
    set up by people who left Gibson when they moved their manufacturing
    plant, and that these are the people responsible for the original
    Gibson designs and quality. Supposedly you are getting traditional
    Gibson quality at a slightly lower price. I've liked some of the
    Heritage guitars I tried, but not enough to buy one. That's not to say
    they weren't worth buying, just that I wasn't so bowled over I couldn't
    control myself. But I have fairly conservative buying habits compared
    to some guitarists.
    
    As far as Mr. Music's collection, and old ES's go in general, he has
    some pretty good stuff (as well as some junk). His prices aren't too
    bad, but you could do a lot better on a direct used purchase. For
    example, I bought my ES-345 direct for about $550, and Mr. Music was
    selling comparable stuff in worse condition for around $800-900.
    
    Also, you may want to consider looking for certain modifications in an
    ES. Mine has Grover pegs and had the trapeze bridge replaced with a
    fixed one. This lowers the "collector's" value, but I think it improves
    the guitar. I didn't buy it to put it on the wall and look at it.
    
    - Ram

	Out of curiosity, what are dealer costs for Gibsons?
	Is it 50% of list?  I'm asking because the cheapest price 
	I've found on new stuff is Rhythm City in Atlanta.  After 
	some haggling they told me that they'd sell any guitar at 
	$100 over their cost, which they said was 50% list.  

	What do you think?

    
    
    
    	You betcha, and many times 40% of list....

Here are some numbers from Mandolin Brothers latest catalog.  These are not 
the cheapest prices to be had - you mileage may vary blah blah blah ...

				list    cash
  ES-335 Studio w gig bag	 949     664 (i.e. 30% off)
  ES-335 Reissue/519 case	1449    1014

Jim

	Well, I broke down and did it.  I didn't want to spend the bucks
	but just couldn't find another that compared.  I called down to 
	Rhythm City on Monday and ordered the 347 that I tried. 

	1990, natural finish, beautifully grained maple body (much better 
	than the natural 335 they had), matching maple neck, ebony fretboard, 
	coil cut, gold hw, adj bridge, stop tail with fine tuning, plays 
	like butter, sounds like Mel Tourmee' (sp?).  
	
	Whats real nice is that I just sold off my December stock for a
	nifty 50% profit, which just about pays for the guitar!  Thank you 
	Digital!!! 

	Should be here by Friday or Monday.  Can't wait, drool ...

	Mike