Conference napalm::guitar

    I've always beleived the way to check your neck/truss rod is to fret
    your strings (one at a time) at the 1st and 12th fret.  There should be
    about .010" "bow" to the neck which you can measure with a feeler gage.
    Note that the fretboard should be "bowed" towards the fret board, not
    "arched"...Ergo, there should be *some* clearance between the fretted
    string (at the 1st and 12th fret). 
    
    Be *very* careful messing around with the truss rod.  If you snap
    it, your neck is history.  You might consider Rich MacDuff in
    Shrewsbury...He's real good, and real inexpensive.  Maybe $25 for
    a set up job ??  Even if it's more than $25, it beats aggravating
    yourself, and certainly beats ruining your axe...
                                          
    jc
    
                                                                 

	A quick check of the straigtness of your neck might be in order.
	To do this with no other tools than you eyes, pick the guitar
	up, and hold it such that you are facing the bridge, and looking 
	towards the tuning keys. Now if you hold it in this manner:

	      \\\\\\\		
	      \\    |
	     G	 (o)|     __+_______-----------###
		    \	  ----------

		Your       Guitar       Neck    Tuning
		head	   Body			keys


	Then look down the Strings and Neck

	      \\\\\\\		 String
	      \\    |       __________________
	     G	 (o)|.... __+_______-----------###
		    \	  ----------

	You should be able to see if there are any lumps on either
	side of the guitar neck (look down the edges). If it's
	straight, you probably have a fret problem, if it has a slight
	bow in it, but it's very smooth and consistant, that's ok.
	If it's wavy, then the neck has some problems that may require
	fret removal to correct, or it may not be fixable
	

    I'm dyin' !!   Agagagagagagaaa
    
    GREAT art work dude !!   That "dude" is crackin' me up !!
    What a hair do !  Was he in the marine corps ??
    
    ;^)

    .1 has the best way to do it, except that on a 335 you should use the
    1st and 16th fret. You don't need a feeler gage, either, just make sure
    there is a small amount of clearance at the 8th fret.
    
    Too much neck relief will generally cause the problem you describe, so
    don't do any fret leveling until you check the truss rod.
    
    Danny W.

    
    And if a string should break while you have your eyeball resting
    on the bridge, forget the gittar and phone an optician.
    
    Richard

    
    
    
    	I'm not even sure if this will be helpful... but, as a novice neck
    job man (I've done 4 now) I use an 18" metal straight edge to determine
    that the neck is perfectly straight before I begin to level frets.  I
    lay the rule on the neck and hold it up to the light.. then I keep
    adjusting till the edge touchs each fret.
    
    
    Regards,
    Steve

Just want to second an earlier reply.

First off, don't worry to much about this.  This is why God let
good guitars be created with turss rods

Number one.  You really shouldn't play with your truss rod
unless you know what you're doing.  suffice to say, it need be
done slowly, with a period of waiting for the wood to catch up
to the new rod alignment. So it's never an 'instant' fix. 

Thats very important to understand if you're interested in making
your own adjustments.

Number two.  If you're in the area of Worcestor/Shrewsbury,
Rich Macduff, arguably one of the best, can handle this for you,
quickly, and cheaply.  If you live out of this area, inquire for
a good guitar repair guy (or luthier as they refer to be called)

with the money it'll cost you, it maybe in your instuments best interest
to just send it in regardless. I suspect that it wouldn't be more than
a 20 dollar job provided no fret work need be done.

    
    	I *think* I read in my strat manual that one should continually
    	re-tune and re-inspect after each phase of truss adjustment as it 
    	will change clearances.
    
    	-pat

    Very good point Pat.  He's right.  Different string tensions doncha
    know...
    
    jc

First, the comments:

re: .1/.4
.1>    I've always beleived the way to check your neck/truss rod is to fret
.1>    your strings (one at a time) at the 1st and 12th fret.  There should be
.1>    about .010" "bow" to the neck which you can measure with a feeler gage.

.4>    ...  You don't need a feeler gage, either, just make sure there is a 
.4>	small amount of clearance at the 8th fret.

   Just to clarify, are you saying that the gap at the 8th fret should be the
   same when the string is fretted at the 1st and then at the 12th(16th) fret?

re: .6

.6>   ...  I use an 18" metal straight edge to determine
.6>    that the neck is perfectly straight before I begin to level frets.  I
.6>    lay the rule on the neck and hold it up to the light.. then I keep
.6>    adjusting till the edge touchs each fret.
    
    A "perfectly straight" neck is not exactly what you're looking for.  The
    neck requires a little curvature so that fretting action works.  I'm not
    sure a straight edge and "no gap" is desirable.  I guess it depends on
    how much force the strings exert when tuned.

re: .8    
.8>    	I *think* I read in my strat manual that one should continually
.8>    	re-tune and re-inspect after each phase of truss adjustment as it 
.8>    	will change clearances.

    While the string tension would indeed change during truss rod adjustment,
    I have _always_ heard and gone by the belief that one should completely
    detune the guitar (ie, no tension on strings at all) prior to messing
    with the 'rod.  If you make adjustments with the neck "loaded" you're
    asking for trouble and inconsistant results.


Now, the question:

    I can't seem to get the action on my Gibson as low as I think it should
    be able to go.  It's low enough to be eminently playable, but after all,
    this is a _Gibson_, and should be able to go so low you could barely fit
    a heavy pick under the strings at the 12th fret.

    If I lower the bridge too far the strings buzz, especially in the upper
    section of the neck (above the 14th fret).  I feel the neck could use a 
    little more bow to it, but the truss rod is as loose as it gets.  

    Oh yeah, it's an ES335S, rosewood fingerboard, extra-light D'Addario
    (.009 high-E) strings.

    Any suggestions?

    -- Sam    

    re .10:
    
    put .010's on. THat will cause the neck to curve a little so you can 
    then tighten it to the point you like it. 
    
    It's been my experience that anything lighter than .010's don't work
    too well on Gibsons anyways. 
    
    Are you sure you don't have 1 or 2 high frets? 
    
    -Dave (thinking of going to .011's on his Strat)

    
    
 > It's been my experience that anything lighter than .010's don't work
 > too well on Gibsons anyways.
    
    Ditto.....I tried .009's on my LP in last week's practice.  They seemed
    to go out of tune easily and I couldn't "find" them.  I kept getting
    "lost".  Switched to .010's for our gigs this weekend with great
    results.  Stayed in tune "most" of the night (with solo work on almost
    every song), and my truss rod seems to be tweaked for .010's.  There
    were .010's on the axe when i got it three weeks ago and the action now
    matches the way it was when I brought it home!  Nice.....8)

    I also agree, I tried 9s on my LP and hated them.  I took them off
    and put 10s back on and like it much better but, I might try 11s.
    
    
    
    Don

    .13
    
    .011's?  yikes!  I'm still tryin' to get used to doing bends and shakes
    on the .010's!
    
    Steve

    Back when I played a 335, I used 11s.  !2s had the best tone, but
    good luck on bending that wound G!  Now that I have the Ibanez and
    the floyd rose from hell, 009s with a .042 on the bottom work great.
    Ask Ralph Crowley about the action...its so light and fast, its
    a breeze to play like Yngwie!

	010's??? Bridge cables!!!! I use either 008's or 007's on my Gibson
	SG. It stays in tune with no trouble. The only heavier strings are
	on my ovation 12 string (only cuz the piezo pickups loose all of
	thier bass reponse with thinner strings).

	My SG's neck is great with real light strings on it. I haven't
	had to adjust the neck on the SG since I went to the light guage
	strings either. I guess it's all in what feels best, but I can't
	imagine playing for 5 hours with 010's on any of my guitars, I
	respect my fingers too much (by the way, I also use thin picks).

								Jens

    
    It's 009's or 008's for me, too.  If I had to use 011's, I'd switch to
    the piano!   I have owned a Paul and an SG and I never had any trouble
    with getting the action low.  Then again, I worry only about the sound
    through the amp.  If it happens to buzz when not played through the
    amp, it's of no consequence.
    
    Kevin
    
    
    

    I use .011's on my ES345. When I go to anything lighter I have terrible
    intonation problems, more buzzing and less sustain. I agree that this
    seems to be true of Gibsons in general, though I'm not quite sure why.
    If I really want a lighter sounder I can consider using .010's, but
    anything lighter than that is virtually impossible for me (I'm fussy
    about intonation).
    
    - Ram

    re .17 The reason I like heavy strings isn't to correct an action
    problem, the action on my LP is really *low*.  I prefer the feel
    and the tone of the .010s much better, everybody likes different
    things though.                        
    
    
    Don

    One of the problems with this type of discussion is that evry player
    has different standards of what's acceptable for action vs tone vs
    rattles.
    
    Many Les Pauls will show a slight backbow when used with strings
    lighter than .010-038". The only reasonable cure is to stay with
    strings in this range or keep the action high--I think most players
    prefer the slightly bigger strings. The backbow may disappear at
    certain times of the year. One "cure" that may or may not work is to
    string it up with heavy strings, leave the truss rod loose and let it
    sit for a few months with excess relief, in the hope the neck will take
    a set in this direction.
    
    Those of you that find .010"'s unreasonably heavy should have played
    the Fender Jaguar I used in my surf music days with .016"-.064". I
    currently use LTHB (.010-052) on my solids and most semi's, and find
    this works well with an ultra-low action.
    
    A Les Paul should be able to be set at 3/64" bass and treble at the
    12th fret.
    
    Danny W.

    Amen on the intonation and the tone with .010 thru .046.  The tone is
    fatter, and I can play *any* chord anywhere on the neck, and the tuning
    is close to perfect.  I tend to be heavy handed when playing chords,
    anyway, so lighter strings tend to "move" out of tune on me when
    palying some barr chords up on the neck.  My problem, but solved with
    .010 thru .046. 
    
    Steve

    >Those of you that find .010"'s unreasonably heavy should have played
    >the Fender Jaguar I used in my surf music days with .016"-.064". 
    
    Betcha did a lotta wide bends with those on there...  ;^)
    
    (Not that I find .010s unreasonably heavy, I just prefer the action of
    most of my electrics with .009-.042s)

    
    
    .011's.....Wow...I'd feel like I was playing with telephone poles!!!
    I've almost always used .009's, until a couple of months ago when
    I tried some .008's.  They actually worked better with the tremelo
    on my Dean, and had no resistance at all!
    
    BTW, Bucks setup DOES play fast....I'd like to get my hands on
    one of those axes with some .008's on it!! :^)
    
    Ralph
    
    

    
    .007's, .008', .009's ?????  What, you mean for fishing line???
    :-) ;-)
    
    Seriously, though. For me, it depends on the guitar. My ES-335
    feels great with .010's or .011's. The L-5CES needs .011's or 
    .012's (Dean Markley Jazz are my favorites). I would never put 
    anything heavier than .010's on my Strat though. The same set of
    Dean Markley .011's that felt LIGHT on the above Gibson's felt
    too heavy for the Strat. 
    

    Phil    

     SET MODE=NO/FLAMES
    
     .008's and .009's are for WIMPS with no muskles in dem fingers!  
    
                      NOTE!   >>-->  ;^)   <--<<   
    
    It all comes down to what YOU want! I remember when Dan Armstrong
    strings came with "2" .008" strings per pack. See...  they KNEW
    they were going to break so they gave you an extra. Such a deal??
    When I worked with Les Paul's grandson many years ago, he started
    me on Gibson .013" sonomatics (sp? it's been a while)!!! How about
    those strings? Telephone cables with a wound 3rd! I used to bend them.
    Not like .010's and .011's, but none the less. SRV uses heavy gauges
    too! What does gauge have to do with tone? EVERYTHING! ;^)  While
    lights and extra light gauges aren't really for wimps ;^)  ;^). They
    "can" make chords that you need to stretch for inaccurate and make 
    your guitar sound out of tune when it really isn't. Ever happen
    to you? I can't tell you how many sessions I've been in where the
    guitarist actually bends one string (not meaning to either) in a
    chord and then has to do the track over, or punch that one bit in
    on tape. What a pain! While I realize everybody is different (thank
    goodness), I shouldn't flame on guys and gals that use those slinky
    strings. In some applications they *ARE* the best tool, but 9 times
    of of 10...  give me those .010's and .011's.
    Anyone have an extra pack of .012"s???
     
    
    Fred (who likes a little fight bending dem thar telephone cables)
    
    ;^) 
    
    P.S. What about Eddie Van? He used/uses .010's and tuned/tunes down
         to Eb because (in the early years) he got a better tone using
         the heavier gauges.   <Food for thought>
        

    RE: .25  Fred,
    Same point as earlier...
    
    I play lots of chords in lots of different positions up and down the
    neck, and I tend to accidentally "pull" real light strings out of tune.
    
    more trivia...SRV uses "heavier" strings and tunes down to Eb.
    
    Steve

    .009, .010, .013 ... you wimp guitarists get no sympathy from me.
    Try playing four sets with nothing smaller than a .045 to wrap yer
    digits around.  Yeah, I can bend em too.
    
    :-) :-) :-)
    
    /rick

    RE:  .27
    
    Rick,
    
    why don't you just use coat hangers, they have a real *fat* tone, and
    will NEVER break!
    
    |)
    
    Steve

    >why don't you just use coat hangers, they have a real *fat* tone, and
    >will NEVER break!
    
    I beg to differ - the last set of coat hangers I used only lasted 17
    years, and then the low E went out on me in the middle of an important
    gig. I've decided to switch to bridge cables - they have more of the
    feel I'm looking for (I prefer round-wounds) ;-)
    
    - Ram

    I don't know Ram, those bridge cables can be awful tough on the 'ol
    back.  I once played a Les Paul with Bridge Cable strings, and I had to
    rent a crane as a shoulder strap!
    
    What was this note about, anyway......|)
    
    Steve

    
    So, is the consenus that Gibson necks require .10's or better to
    prevent reverse bows?  
    
    Do the folks with .10's and higher adjust the bolts on the stop tail
    pieces to reduce the string tension?
    
    Kevin
    

    	Actually with .10's the string tension was too light and sloppy
    and I lowered my stop tailpiece to be flush with the body. I also
    notice minimal difference of going to a heavier string on a different
    guitar which helped in adjusting playing technique.
    
    							Rick

I ran 008's & 009's on my Les Paul with no problems at all...

back when I still owned such a beast

dbii

    
    I used .008's and .009's on my Les Paul, when I owned it.  I found out
    eventually that my problems with keeping it in tune were indeed because
    of the strings.
    
    Dave

    
    I've never had problems using light strings (0.008,0.009) on my les
    paul.  They do sound a bit buzzy acoustically but they're ok when
    amplified.  I do prefer 0.010 though.
    
    Cheers
    		Pete.

    re .31:
    
    yes, I used to do that when I owned a Les Paul. I had .010's and set
    the action up to 1/16th inch at the 22nd fret for both the high and
    low E strings.
    
    -DAve