Conference napalm::guitar

      Mike; don't get discouraged and by the essentials first then go
    with the add-ons and upgrades piece by piece-that's the only way
    I know of (unless your big record deal just came thru!) 
    - keep on goin' 
    -bill
    

    	Yeah I agree with the piece by piece upgrades,keep in mind
    of only putting into it what you make out of it. Notice: "make=$$$"
    the time inbetween each purchase will really give you insight as
    to using your hardware.....prioritize what you want........
    
    
    

    Sure it would be cheaper to just buy a combo, and a few foot pedals,
    but racks seem to be so much more fun :-)
    
    Mike

    
    Re: .2
    
    Amen.  Every equipment purchase I make has to be financed 100% by gigs,
    period, that's my number one rule.  Number two rule is when I have a
    list of toys I want, if it can't be use *immediately* on gigs, it goes
    to the bottom of the list.  
    

    RE .2, .4
         
    Read those replies again, because they hit the subject right on
    the head. Sure buying a full rack of effects is fun (my wife wouldn't
    find the humor in it though), but remember, it's not what you have
    in that rack, it's *how* you use it to it's best advantage. There
    are so many notes that discuss digital effects vs analog it can
    drive you crazy. As suggested, make that list of equipment that
    you want. Then figure out what you *need* vs what would be nice
    to have. Buy the necessary equipment and put the other stuff on
    hold. You might decide along the way that you really don't need
    some of the other stuff and thus save some money along the way.
                                     
    Fred (who can find a good tone using analog devices and save $ along
          the way)

    $3,000-$4,000 ????
    
    What does this boy have in mind ????
    
    If you live in the Mass area, it'd probably be worth your time to
    check through the "Want Ad".  Chances are, if you've got a some
    specifics in mind, you'll probably find em in the want ad.  And
    you can find some real 'mint' condition stuff in there for a lot
    less money than you'd spend on the same gear new.  (Amps, Guitars,
    Effects,,, It's all in there,,, and by the tons...)
    
    Again, like it was  mentioned before, put the horse in front of the 
    cart..
    
    Get your guitars squared away (priorty #1), then go for your amp..
    Effects,, while they're all real nice to have, for the most part are
    not neccessities,,, add them on as you can, and again, these items
    (stop boxes, rack mounted effects) can usually be found as real
    bargains if you buy them used. 

>    $3,000-$4,000 ????
>    What does this boy have in mind ????
    
    You'd be surprised! :-)  Maybe I've learned too much.
    
    Mike

    Yeah, I have a rack full of toys to get "THE sound(s)", but I was
    VERY happy with my axe, a cord, and my GK for 4 years...
    Ya don't HAVE to have a $1900 rack to enjoy your music.
    
    jc (but I like my rack ;^)

    re: -1
    
    > Ya don't HAVE to have a $1900 rack to enjoy your music.
    
    Exactly, HOWEVER, the manufacturers of these products are telling
    you the you MUST have them, just so they can maintain their high
    profits.
    
    Some folks really do benefit from these "toyz", but then again,
    some are stupid enough to get suckered into something they may
    never need.
    
    Let's face it; some of the greatest sounds (mainly back in the
    late '60s, early '70s) were created with a guitar, cord and amp.
    
    cheers/mike

    re: .8          
    
    >Yeah, I have a rack full of toys to get "THE sound(s)", but I was
    >VERY happy with my axe, a cord, and my GK for 4 years...
    >Ya don't HAVE to have a $1900 rack to enjoy your music.

    ...and when his rack screws up, he goes back to playing an evening with
    the GK.  ;^)

    Seriously Mike, despite the fact that I have the old "rack-full-o-fun"
    myself, I played for years with just a little Crate 1x12 combo and a
    Strat.  In all honesty, I get a lot less playing time in now 'cause I
    end up monkeying around with all the effects and junk.  It's actually
    hurt my playing.  Believe it or not, most people have about three or
    four sounds that they use about 95% of the time.  Having 20 effects
    available at the same time and a preamp that'll sound like 10 different
    amps makes things very complicated and time consuming.  It's really
    nice having all that available, but quite honestly, I got by with the
    band I'm with before I bought all this stuff with simply a delay and a
    distortion.  

    I personally think that a simple setup is the way to go to begin with,
    then build "the ultimate system" over time.  You'll find that you never
    get "the ultimate system" because what you end up wanting constantly
    changes, if you're like most (of us) "equipment freaks".  I think
    you'll find that if you read the notes over time by the folks in here
    with the big setups that they are constantly adding and replacing
    things in them.

    Especially since you are a relatively new player, I'd heartily
    recommend that you buy the best guitar you can afford, then get a
    decent, but not extravagant amp to begin with.  Effects are nice, but
    they are just frosting on the cake.  If the cake don't taste good to
    begin with, no amount of frosting is gonna help much.  Please don't
    take this as an insult, I don't intend it that way at all.  Right now
    I'm going through a point where I need badly to step away from all my
    equipment and get some good honest hard working practice at *playing*
    the guitar (as opposed to playing the effects)!  It's easy to lose your
    perspective.

    Now all that behind me, what I do as far as acquiring new equipment is
    to buy things piece by piece, waiting in between for the ones I want
    (or think I want) to show up at a good price.  I usually try my best to
    get things used.  Most of the people in here have financed their
    equipment by gigging, I haven't.  I justify the expense as
    entertainment, playing guitar is my only hobby and I don't feel bad at
    all at having spent a lot of money out of my pocket for that.  It makes
    me happy and that's all that matters to me.  (of course, I could
    probably be JUST as happy with a lot less, but I have that excessive
    kind of personality...  8^)

    Greg                       

    re.  10 
    
    	Excellant realistic advice! And not insulting whatsoever. A lot 
    of people here could benefit from rereading what you have said! Your's
    truly included! :^)   
    
    							Rick

    Timely advice Greg!  I was thinking about this yesterday and convinced
    myself to do the very same thing: buy the guitar(s) I'll be happy with
    and get a little combo and maybe a couple stomp pedals.
    
    I'll wait until I'm comfortable with what I'm doing before getting
    anything else.  
    
    This approach will save me $$$ for sure.
    
    Mike

Who knows, maybe you'll decide all you really *need* is a Marshall and a Strat!

(Naaaaaahhhhh!!! ;^))


Low-tech Penn

    RE: .13 
    
    OR, maybe *all you need* is a strat, a Roland JC55, and a tube
    screamer.......yes!!
    
    Low-tech Steve

    
    >Yeah, I have a rack full of toys to get "THE sound(s)", but I was
    >VERY happy with my axe, a cord, and my GK for 4 years...
    >Ya don't HAVE to have a $1900 rack to enjoy your music.

    ...and when his rack screws up, he goes back to playing an evening with
    the GK.  ;^)                                                          
    
    Greg,
     
    were you at the club where Jeff and I played last Friday?  Jeff was
    heard to say: "man, yer blowin' me away with that amp" (25watt Roland
    JC55 + Ibanez tube screamer) right after his NEW ART SGE broke....
    
    |*) Low_tech_Steve_bulldawg_blues_rock_oldies_cover_king_old_fart

    
    I thought it kind of odd that when WJB listed his MP-1 for sale, it
    didn't generate any discussion.  From what he told me, he is dropping
    all this midi-rack-madness to return to a good 'old Marshall crunch.
    Back to basics, no compression, no rack-breakdowns, and all that good
    stuff.
    
    Of course, WJB could probably get good sounds out of a banjo and an old
    padded Kustom amp.  But what about the the rest of us?
    
    Will this anti-midi-rack movement take hold and capture America? 8-)
    
    Kevin
           

    >Of course, WJB could probably get good sounds out of a banjo and an old
    >padded Kustom amp.  But what about the the rest of us?

    Don't laugh...way back when, I had two of em!  A metal-flake green one
    and a metal-flake purple Kustom amp.  With 8 channels and 4 x 15's in
    all, it was a rockin setup (I used to strap EVERY channel together!)! 

    When WJB posted the MP1 for sale note, I took it as a knock on MP1s,
    not on rack gear.
    
    Mike

    re: -1
    
    Oh, don't do that!!!  The unit (MP-1) is amazing...take it as a
    knock on MIDI...I was, and will always be an MIDIot, I guess!

    
    So Buck, you really going back to just guit + amp ?

    Funny this discussion should turn this way.  I was having problems last
    night at band practice getting my stuff to work, part was just pilot
    error (how on earth that output slider got turned all the way down,
    I'll never know, I *never* change that!) and part was my keyboard
    players loaner equipment malfunctioning.  I was thinking again how
    having so much complication really leave ya open for problems.  It only
    cost us about half an hour of practice time, but I found it incredibly
    frustrating.
    
    I said something about selling it all and buying a Marshall.  [:-)] 
    The keyboard players response was "Then you'll just have *one*
    patch...".  He's right I suppose, I guess there's always a price you
    pay for flexability.  I tend to use a lot of different guitar sounds
    and effects (maybe just because they're there, I used to get by with
    just an amp and a delay...).  
    
    I wasn't serious about selling it (I just *bought* all this), but it
    just reiterated to me that there's a LOT to be said for simplicity.  If
    I were in a different type band (we play a lotta techno-pop type stuff,
    kind of an eclectic mix), I seriously doubt that I'd need (or want) all
    the effects and stuff.
    
    Good plan, Mike.  Put your money in the right place to start with, your
    guitar.  Effects, powerful amps and all that jive can come later, but a
    good quality playable guitar is the best thing you can start with
    (especially if you plan on having only one).
    
    Greg
                                                                  

	Ya,but keep in mind that some of us didn't buy rack's for the 
multitude of tones and sounds. It is by far easier and ligher to carry 
around a couple of small 4 space racks(or even one)and a speaker than to 
carry some combo amp's.(like the boogies,twins or marshalls). I picked up 
a Boogie Combo the other day with an EV and thought it weighed more than 
my Twin,not to mention what it did to my hand! Ouch!
	Alot of flexibility can be found in simplicity if you work at it.

Then you could be like me with a 8 space rack wieghing in at about "two people
required to carry me" :-)

I have a rack 'cuz I like the punishment....

no really I like the sound...

dbii

    I can second that!  Until this week (when he changed equipment), my
    keyboard players rack weighed more then my Hiwatt 100wt combo (with
    1x12 EV).  Beastly heavy.
    
    I agree about the portability, though.  Good point.
    
    Greg

    Is 30% considered to be the standard cash discount?
    
    Mike

    re .-1
    
    Depends on the area.  When I was buying more gear than I do now, for
    example, the standard cash discount in Columbia, South Carolina was 20%. 
    At the same time in Atlanta it was between 40% and 50% for the same
    items.  There usually is a concensus in a given area.
    
    Call a lot of shops, you'll soon see, I think.
    
    Will

    Anyone know of any wholesale dealers?  What exactly would be the 
    percentage for dealer costs as compared to list, in the guitar world?
    
    Maybe I'll start my own dealership. :-)
    
    Mike

    Like any retail establishment, a music store will mark up some
    percentage over their cost.  In hardware, the average used to be
    a 40% markup -- that was in the mid-70's when I worked part time
    at a hardware store.  I would guess that 20 to 40 percent mark-ups
    are pretty standard for music stores, but it would depend on the
    local market demand, competitors, etc.
    
    	joe.

    Most music stores go for about a 30-40% mark-up around here these days. 
    If you can find 20% you're probably getting good deals.
    
    Greg 

    
    
    	Yup... I agree, Greg as a matter of fact the two stores around here
    markup 100%... meaning if they buy it for $200 they mark it at $400 and
    deal from there.  Sounds like the mini-computer biz, huh..
    
    
    
    Steve

    I received my Roland Credit Card application in the mail yesterday. 
    APR is 19.8% for balances > $2,000 and 18% if less.
    
    Mike

    I could make ya a slightly better deal on my GP8 ....  8^)
    
    Scary

    RE: .33
    
    O-tay...  how about $200.00!  Let's see...  $500 minus $300 due to the
    lack of reverb...  yeah, that right, $200.00!   ;)
    
    		No insult intended...       NOT!    ;)
    
    
    			Rack on,
    				Fred

    But Scary, I'm not looking for a preamp plus you're out of my price
    range.  
    
    My wife said I could get anything I want as long as its less than $10!

    This was on the Internet the other day and sorta fits into this old
    note.
    
    						Brian
    
From: [email protected] (gary_watts)
Date: 19 Oct 93 17:57:15 GMT
 
I have noticed frequent request for "Is $xxx for item z a good deal?"
 
There's a easy way to know.  By understanding how much profit margin 
dealers normally have, you can figure it out for yourself. 
 
Most manufacturers price their item against similiar items in the
marketplace.  There fore the profit margin is similiar.
 
There are two methods that distributors and manufacturers use.
 
Standard margins are as follows
50% markup-"A" markup
40% markup-"B" markup
30% markup-"C" markup
 
With accessories in particuliar (straps,strings,picks,reeds etc)
distributors add additional discounts which look better in print than
in reality.  An example may be a strap which is priced at 50 + 10.
This means an item that retails for $10.00 normally costs the dealer
$5.00 but he now gets an extra 10% off making the actual cost $4.50
 
By category here's the standard markup schedule.
 
Guitars.  These are almost always 50%.  This means that a $1000.00
guitar costs the dealer $500.00 plus shipping to his door.  Major
manufacturers like Fender,Gibson,Ibanez etc are priced this way.  
Paul Reed Smith,Zion,Tom Anderson,Martin, Guild etc are also priced
this a 50% margin.  
 
Amps.  Usually 50%. Exceptions: Soldano 40%, Mesa Boogie 20%.  The 20%
margin is the reason  Mesa dealers will not usually discount their 
amps or take trades on them.  
 
Electronics.  Keyboards,rack processing etc is generally 40% .  Stomp box
pedals are a little more better as high as 60% but are usually marked down
considerably by dealers. 
 
Drums. The kits them self are 50%.  Cymbals are usually 50 + 20 (same as
60%).  
 
PA.  Many items particuliarly electronics are 40%.  Some entry lines
(not professional) like Crate,Audio Centron,Sound Tech,Ross etc are
50%.  
 
Accessories.  The markup is higher since the item is amaller and higher
volume.  Electric guitar strings like D'Addario,Ernie Ball,GHS etc run
around $2.25 to 2.75 per set even thought the retail is stated something
like $7.95.  A dealer makes most of his profit from accessories as they are
high volume and draw people into the store.
 
Realize that large volume dealers like Musicians Friend, Guitar Cente,
Music Emporium etc get better deals than your neighborhood store does.
A manufacturer may offer the remaining inventory of a soon to be discontinued 
item at a better than normal price if the dealer agrees to take all the 
remaining units.  
 
When I first opened my store in 1989, IMC, parent company to Charvel and
Jackson offered their remaining 1988 guitars with the small charvel logo for
50+ 50 or 25% of their original retail price.  You had to buy a minumum of 
12 guitars and you were in.  The dealers could sell them for 50% off retail and
still make a 50% profit.
 
So, now that you know what the product costs the dealer, are you going to
pay that for it? Probably not.  The dealer has to pay his employees,his
rent and still have something to feed his family.  Retail stores strive to
make a gross profit of 35%.  Many run around 30%.  Less than this and you
have a difficult time staying in  business.
 
Most dealers will sell you 50%markup items for 20% off.  25% off is not even
uncommon.  His cash situation has a lot to do with it.  40% markup items
are usually 20% maximum discount.  If you do beter than this you know you are
getting a good deal.  
 
Some mail order houses like Factory Music will sell items for 10-15%  over 
cost.  They count on volume to make up the difference.  Items that are 
discounted more than 50% are suspicious and may be 1) obsolete,2) defective
and not covered by warranty or 3) gray market items.  Some guys in
LA were selling gray market Yamaha stuff several years ago.  The worst problem
was that there was no warranty and the power was incorrect for this country
(not 60HZ,120 volt).
 
Good luck.
 
Gary Watts