Conference napalm::guitar

 and... Where did you purchase it?


Rick

      I paid $99 for it. I bought it at Bonne music in Syracuse, NY.
    I'm sure there is a store on most major areas that carry the line.
    Either that or try mail order. 
      I'm not sure how long the battery lasts but I'm sure I'll find
    out. There is no drain on the battery until the cord is plugged
    in. There is an A.C. adapter jact for eliminating the battery
    which I'll look into if I start supporting duracell>

	Thinking about a direct box soon, how long did the batteries last?

	ccb

      Even under consistent weekend use (approx 10 hours plug-in time),
    they last around six months. Once you plug it in is when the battery
    drain starts, so don't leave it plugged in unless you get an AC
    adapter. 
    						-BoOm-

    	Have you ever tried using the Red Box from a preamp output?  How
    did it fare?  You still have to keep the speaker plugged in if you use
    the power amp out, right?
    
    	Dan (who's thinking of getting one of these)
    

    Yeah, does this act as a dummy load if you run without speakers ?
    this could be important for tube amp users.
    
    I've also been considering the Red Box to allow me to record direct
    from my rack to the tape without micing speakers...Gets a little noizy.
    Do y'all think it would work well with my Mp1 to a 4 track ?
    
    jc

    
      The Red Box hooks up one of two ways:
    
      1) Using the line in from a preamp or multieffects unit (capable
    of line level out). In this case a power amp could be run to a speaker
    for monitoring purposes, but it wouldn't be in the recording signal
    path. This arrangement will have the least amount of noise.
    
      2) Using the speaker input and output of the Red Box. This is
    not a dummy load! Especially with tube amps you have to be careful
    to run the speaker in/out of the Red Box correctly. If you want
    a dummy load I've heard the Harry Kolbe Silent Speaker is about
    the best, but it ain't that cheap. Using the speaker option of the
    Red Box will get you the sound of the power amp. It is good for
    amps rated up to 100 watts. 
    
      I have had mine over a year and I'm really pleased with it. It
    uses a 9 volt battery, but they last a long, long time under steady
    use. Hopefully you can check one out before you buy it to see if
    it fills you needs.
    
    						-B()()M-

    Although I have never tried a Red Box, I did read some info on it
    last summer. These units can be placed between the amp and the speakers
    but it does not provide a load for the amp, so you MUST have speakers
    connected to it at all time or risk frying your amp. They also have
    a separate Line-level input, which allows you to connect a preamp and
    simulate the sound of a power amp loaded by speakers. 
    
    I can't comment on how they work in either mode, since I never demoed
    one. I decided not to buy one because they do not allow for silent
    recording.
    
    Mark
    

    Let me qualify that. They can be used for silent recording when
    using them with a line-level signal from a preamp. They cannot
    be used with a speaker output for silent recording.
    
    Besides the Harry Colbe Silent Speaker, the Groove Tubes speaker
    emmulator is also an excellant unit, but pricey. I believe the
    Colbe unit is about $200 and the GT unit is about $450.
    
    Mark
    

    	I just happened upon a deal for a PV EDI box (they made an offer I
    couldn't refuse!).  It says it colors the sound coming from the power amp 
    to sound like an average speaker cabinet (they claim they all have
    similar eq characteristics).
    
    	Anyway, my question involves the idea of using a "dummy load". 
    Parts Express sells a dummy load thingy (for $5.50) that is 8 ohms
    impedance and 50 watts max.  Can I use this instead of my speakers and
    avoid having to take the speakers to gigs altogether?  Will it change
    the sound going to the mixer via the EDI?  Are these "dummy load" units
    o.k. to use for hours at a time or are they just for testing purposes?
    
    	Dan
    

    The "dummy load" is probably some wire-wound power resistors.  You
    could build your own from Rat Shack parts for less than $10.  Like all
    good resistive loads, they turn the power into heat.  So just keep them
    cool enough and you're OK.  It's just sort of a brute force approach to
    get the sound, though....
    
    The EQ idea of the EDI (and probably the Red Box as well) is simple,
    speakers look like band pass filters; your average 12" rolls off above
    6 Khz and below 150 Hz, so some simple filtering and you have a speaker
    emulator.  
    
    							Brian

>    The EQ idea of the EDI (and probably the Red Box as well) is simple,
>    speakers look like band pass filters; your average 12" rolls off above
>    6 Khz and below 150 Hz, so some simple filtering and you have a speaker
>    emulator.  
    
 	So, would it be fair to say then that if you used a graphic EQ
    between the preamp out and the mixer in, rolled off the EQ as you
    stated, you'd have a sound coming out of your mixer like that of a
    guitar amp?
    
    	Dan
    

>    The "dummy load" is probably some wire-wound power resistors.  You
>    could build your own from Rat Shack parts for less than $10.  Like all
    
    	Well, since the Parts Express version is only $5.50, why not buy
    it?
    
    	Dan
    

    	I just called Peavey to ask about the dummy load idea from their
    perspective.  They told me that unless its a tube amp, I don't even need to
    put a load on the speaker jack.
    
    	Does that sound right?
    
    	I think I know the answer to this next question, but I'll ask
    anyway...  If the amp has a tube in the pre-amp section, is it still
    necessary to put a load on the speaker output jack.  My intuition tells
    me no - its just when the power amp section is tubed you need the load.
    
    	Dan
    

    Dan,
    
    You don't need a dummy load for a transistor amp...
    I have a tube preamp and I don't use a load on it for recording
    direct (but I need a speaker emulator to get tone...)
    
    Also, I've messed with an EQ on the preamps outputs into my 4 track.
    It don't cut it.  ;)
    
    Lemme know how the PV unit works eh ??
    
    jc

    	I just tried the PV EDI box out.  I dunno, I must be doing
    something wrong.  It sounds terrible (not just terrible - inferior, but
    terrible - not working right).  I'm not sure what to do...  I put the
    speaker cable from the guitar amp speaker out to the speaker in of the
    EDI, and I ran the balanced out through a mike cable into the mixer
    (and on through the amp and speakers).  It sounds like somethings set
    up wrong.  I'll have to play with it a bit to decide what I need to do
    to get it to sound right...
    
    	Dan
    

    The Peavey EDI boxes have been around for several years, but I don't
    know anyone that uses them. If they worked well, people would be using
    them. I'm not sure why Peavey still sells them. Perhaps they are just
    selling off their inventory and not building any more.
    
    I've been this route myself. I considered the EDI but found it got
    very bad reviews. I considered the Red Box, but it does not provide
    a load. I considered the Colbe Silent Speaker and even the GT speaker
    emmulator, but I decided the money would be best spent on a good preamp
    with speaker emmulator outputs. I ended up buying a Mesa Boogie Studio
    preamp. This unit works great and is built like a truck. I've heard
    a few people using the studio and/or the Quad preamp live directly 
    into the PA system and IMHO they sounded great. I recently heard
    one guy playing through a Quad doing Santana tunes and he had Carlo's
    sound right down to the feedback-sustain. This same guy used to play
    exclusively through Fender and Boogie combos.
    
    I'm glad I never got into a dummy load setup with my Fender "The Twin".
    It sees so little use these days, that it will probably last me forever.
    I generally only use it for occasional jam sessions, and these only
    happen for me a couple times a year. The rest of the time, I'm racked up
    at home with my Boogie preamp.
    
    Mark

>    The Peavey EDI boxes have been around for several years, but I don't
>    know anyone that uses them. If they worked well, people would be using
>   them. I'm not sure why Peavey still sells them. Perhaps they are just
>    selling off their inventory and not building any more.
    
    I think they are still making them because I saw some new ones and the
    are being housed in a new shaped casing.  They cost about $60 new, by
    the way.
    
    I hear what you're saying about going for a good preamp.  If I were
    better at electric guitar, I'd probably do just that.
    
    	Dan
    

    	I put the PV EDI box aside (perhaps I'll figure out what I did
    wrong later - use it as a backup) and went out and got the
    Hughes/Kettner Red Box II (anyone know anything about the difference in
    versions?).  I have to agree with Boom, this is definately a nice unit!
    I tested it out at home by running a direct line out into one mixer
    channel and running the speaker out into the red box, into another
    mixer channel.  Going back and forth between them shows a world of
    difference (I needed to be convinced!).  The red box puts out such a
    warm sound.  I won't say that it sounds just like a 4x12 as the product
    claims (I'm not experienced enough to know for sure), but I definately
    like the sound I get.  $100 seems a little steep for such a simple
    device, but it sure beets having to carry around a big stack of
    speakers.
    
    	Dan
    
    

    >I won't say that it sounds just like a 4x12 as the product claims 
    >(I'm not experienced enough to know for sure), but I definately
    >like the sound I get. 
    
    I have 3 4x12 cabs, and they all sound different (different speakers
    wattages, same brand!)!  So I say, "sounds like a 4x12 filled with 
    WHAT?"

Hi Dan !

The Mark II is just a "maintenance Release" in our terms. They just did some
fine tuning (according to a review), so that it now comes even closer.

About the price, it's the first time something is cheaper over here, it's about
80 $ (120,-DM). ....

Have you also tested the Red Box in an effects loop of a tube preamp (like my
ADA MP-1) ? Any comments ?

	Richard

    O.K., got it.  I figured v II was something like that...
    
    I haven't tried the fx loop trick.  Have you?  I was planning on just
    running it between the line out of the preamp portion of my amp and the
    mixer.
    
    Dan
    

Hi Dan !

No I haven't tried it, since I don't have one. If it would not give good
results in the fx loop, I would need 2 because the ADA out and the Yamaha
SPX900 out are both stereo. Hence, less attractive. On the other hand, in the
fx loop of the ADA I would have the option to switch it via MIDI, which seems
desirable for clean sounds.

	Richard

    I am real interested in how this would work out also.
    
    BTW Richard, I've attempted using ONE output from my Mp1 for recording 
    direct and the results ergonomically were fine (it just sounded
    cheesey - you REALLY need a speaker emulator of some kind).
    
    Maybe I'll get a "Red Box" for my birthday and can try it.
    
    jc

>    
>    BTW Richard, I've attempted using ONE output from my Mp1 for recording 
>    direct and the results ergonomically were fine (it just sounded
>    cheesey - you REALLY need a speaker emulator of some kind).
>    
I thought the Red Box does also speaker emulation ????????

	OA$CONFUSED

		Richard

    OA$Confused ??
    
    Stop talking ALL-IN-1 in here !  Thats  despicable !!
    
    Anyway, yeah the Red Box DOES do speaker emulation, but I *need* a 
    red box !  I have the Mp1, I was just pointing out that you can use it
    mono...I was also saying that when I used it mono (direct to the deck)
    it sounds like utter crap...like the output from a Boss Turbo
    distortion or something.  :)
    
    jc

    
    	Can I go direct from my Boss ME-5 into the Red Box and then
    	into my PA Amp/mixer ?  It's a Carvin 400 watt amp/mixer.
    
    	I don't want to use an amp at all but the sound from the ME-5
    	into the PA bites.
    
    	Help quick?  I'd like to order one TODAY!
    
    	Thanks - Tom
    

    
    	never mind - called H&K - they said nope.
    
    

    Why?  Because the Red Box won't take an instrument level input or what?
    
    Greg

    
    
      Why not? I use the recording out of my ACCESS, into a Red Box line in, 
    then into the mixer ALL the time. I've used this with numerous sound systems
    and sound engineers and have heard nothing but good things about my
    guitars sound through the system. 
    
      I used to use the speaker ins and outs of the Red Box when I was
    using my Kitty Hawk Testarossa, but I'm really happy with the line out
    sound from the ACCESS. 
    
      Since the Red Box has BOTH a speaker in/out and a line in, why
    wouldn't the line out of the ME-5 cut it? I used to have a ME-5 and I 
    agree that straight into the board sounds like crap!
    
    							-B{}{}M-

    
    	I don't know why, to tell you the truth.  I thought it was just
    	what I was looking for!!  He said that it's made for "at least
    	a preamp" signal.  He had heard of the ME5 but didn't seem to
    	know much about it.
    
    	So you guys are saying it DOES work, right?
    
    	Thanks!
    

I can't see why it wouldn't work...

??

    I was looking at a Red Box in a mailorder catalog just now and it looks
    to me like the Red Box has only line level and speaker level inputs. 
    What the person at H&K probably presumed (as I did) was that the Me-5
    didn't put out a line level signal, just an instrument level signal. 
    If it's just an instrument level signal, then it'd need to go through a
    preamp to bring it up to line level before the Red Box would use it. 
    If the ME-5 has a line level output, it should work with the Red Box.
    
    Greg

I'm not sure, but I think the ME-5 DOES put out a Line Level signal!
I thought it WAS a preamp!  

jc - who may be wrong...

     It may be a preamp, but the signal might go through a
     gain reduction stage right before the output. If you have
     a manual, check to see if the ME-5 output is selectable.

     Neal
     	

    
    	It's a regular instrument level output (A/B for stereo).  It
    	has headphone out and most definitely increases the output
    	level when I set it high.  So, Boom, will it work?  I assume
    	you didn't have the ME5/Red Box at the same time, yes?
    
    	Thanks for all your help - Tom
    

    
    	just fyi, most catalogs - Music Emporium, Musicians Friend,
    	American Music Supply are between 89.95 and 94.99.  The new
    	PMI (Pro Music Intruments) with Satch on the cover has it
    	for 79.  Wurly's in Framingham doesn't have one in stock
    	but would gladly get me one (in 2 weeks!!) for 115 !!!
    
    	Best to check around...
    
    

   FYI, Thorobred Music recently quoted me a price of $76 + $8.95 S+H for
   the Red Box.

   Unfortunately, I'd already ordered one from AMS for slightly more than
   that, and after waiting a month while it was on BACKORDER (I hate that
   word) I called to check on it, and found it was shipping today.  I was
   going to cancel the order if it was still b.o.-ed and get it from
   Thorobred.  Oh well, at least I'll have it in a week or so.

   -- Sam

> ...after waiting a month while it was on BACKORDER (I hate that
>   word) I called to check on it, and found it was shipping today. 
 
    Sure dude, and the check's in the mail.
    
    Greg

    Lotsa Red Box poop and no Cream Machine...
    
    Oh well, since that whole H&K half-rack line of units (Cream Machine,
    Metal Shredder, Blues Master, B.A.T.T.) have been discontinued,
    blowouts are happening.  Just ordered a Cream Machine for $118.88 from
    Musician's Friend (this is about 1/3 of list). It's marked as "limited
    quantities" in the catalog. 
    
    The Blues and Metal boxes are also on special but the markdown are not
    nearly as good ($288.88 and $248.88 respectively vs. a $399 list).  
    The big diff: those two boxes have 3-band EQs, there are no tone
    controls at all on the Cream Machine.
    
    See what good things happen when you wait long enough to buy something 
    8^)
    
    							Brian

    The Cream Machine arrived yesterday, here's a quick review...

    First, this thing is so simple that anybody who's boggled by cursors,
    menus, algorithms, LCDs and MIDI will like it: three knobs (one is
    hidden on the back) and three switches, that's it.  It's small enough
    to sit comfortably on top of your average combo amp, or can be racked
    (ears are not provided though).

    The input jack is duplicated on both the front and back panels which
    should please rack fans.  Except for a footswitch jack, the rest of the
    jack panel is outputs.  There is a speaker output (more on this later),
    a dry output, "tube amp" output, a "mix" output and the "cabinetulator"
    output.  The power switch is on the front, switches for level
    (instrument or line) and bypass (in case you have no footswitch) are on
    the back.  The front panel knobs are gain and master, the rear has
    "tube amp level" which affects all outputs but the speaker.  Power and
    bypass (off) LEDs complete the front panel.

    The mix output is what you would normally use with a single channel
    amp, the dry and tube outs are there so you can patch each to a
    different amp or channel (using the footswitch or rear panel switch
    selects one and mutes the other, nice feature).  The "cabinetulator"
    can be used with an amp and gives a different sound, less bright. Of
    course, its main purpose is for patching into a mixing board.

    Setting the unit up is easy.  Plug in your guitar and turn it on,  then
    select bypass mode and set up your amp for a clean sound.  Then kick
    the  unit in, set the gain at 9:00, the master at 12:00 and adjust the
    rear panel level to get the volume you'd like relative to your clean
    level.  Once the rear panel is set, you can tweak the front panel knobs
    to your heart's desire.

    The unit has a one watt power amp built in with an attenuator (manual
    calls it a "power soak") so the signal you get has both pre and power
    amp distortion.  Because of this, at high gain settings the master tops
    out quickly and you get no volume increase, just more distortion.  With
    both controls up all the way, I can pick up radio stations ala my
    ancient Fuzz Face...that's gain!  At  higher gain settings, a
    well-shielded guitar is a must.  Even then there is a noticeable amount
    of hiss (maybe I've been spoiled by my Scholz Sustainor which has a
    noise gate built in).  But good rich distortion is available at much
    lower  gain settings where the noise is much less noticeable.

    Most folks will find something they like between 9:00 and 1:00 on the
    gain, while using the higher settings merely gives more compression and
    sustain.  You can get that "in between" sound of an amp on the edge of
    distortion that's hard to get with fuzz boxes.  With my Strat, setting
    the gain just below 9:00 gave a warm tone with breakup when I played
    hard.  If you don't mind fiddling with your guitar's volume knob, you
    can modulate the amount of dirt easily and the unit responds well to
    picking intensity.  

    I found it very bright sounding with my Strat, and with no EQ you're
    left with the tone controls on your guitar and amp to compensate (might
    be less of a problem with a Gibson/humbucker style guitar).  I know the
    other H&K boxes have bright switches, personally, I couldn't use any
    more treble boost!  Using the cabinetulator instead of the mix out
    rolls off the highs nicely, though, it's worth trying both to see which
    sounds better for your needs.  If you have a two-channel amp, then you
    can use the separated outputs and easily tweak the EQ for the distorted
    tone to your liking.

    I tried the speaker out driving an EVM-12L and it works well, not very
    loud, but nice tone.  Like the Marshall Microstacks, you get much more
    usable volume if you go for a distorted sound, with only one watt RMS,
    this thing isn't going to get loud at all when running clean.  
       
    The manual is bilingual (German and English) but isn't very detailed. 
    One thing that is not mentioned is the load impedance of the speaker
    out (important for a tube amp!) or even what type of tubes are inside
    for when they need replacement (surprise, they are H&K branded tubes
    with the only ID "CM1" and CM2", I think the preamp uses a 12AX7, no
    idea what the power tube might be).

    The pros: good tone, simple to use, cheap (at blowout prices), speaker
    emulator

    The cons: no EQ, non-programmable

    Brian,
    
    Have you tried recording direct with it using the cabinet emulator? 
    If so, how authentic is the sound?  Does it sound like a miked amp?
    
    Greg

    OK, I made a scratch tape last night and it sounded real good to me. 
    The tone was very similar to what I get when I mike my amps. 
    
    I used it for all the axes on the tape (two guitars and bass). The
    cabinetulator output works in bypass mode, so it can be used for clean
    sounds, too...this is how I did one of the guitars and the bass.  In
    the bypass mode the signal path is all solid state. 
    
    I ran the signal flat while tracking, rolled off a tad of low end on
    the (clean) rhythm guitar during the mix...voila.  I was impressed. 
    The hissiness I noticed when using it as a front end to my amp was
    considerably less going direct.  
    
    							Brian

     
     Well, I ordered a Cream Machine, too. Got it last night in fact.....
     and it's going back. I hate it. I really should know better. I bought
     one of those SOHO tube preamps a couple of years ago on a blowout sale
     and was just as disappointed then. The CM has no low end/mids, just high
     mid harsh raspiness. All the outputs seem too bright. No real warmth
     at all IMO. I thought it sounded ok driving a speaker though, and it's 
     built well, but that isn't enough to make me keep it. 10 yrs ago I traded
     my 70's Super Reverb to a friend for the Peavey Bandit and that thing
     has the best sounding fake "tube grind" of all my amps. I never regretted
     making that trade. 'Course, replacing the spkr with a $30 Eminence Alnico
     Jensen copy helped. And the Saturation(tm) knob on "1" sounds like it's
     on "1" and not "10". The CM starts on "10" and only gets worse.
     	Brian Rost reminded me of something that Aspen Pittman once said about
     when engineers started adding bells and whistles to amps (overdrives,
     etc.) they started screwing up a good thing. He seems to believe the way
     to get overdrive is just use a small amp and crank it instead of bothering
     with all this high-gain preamp stuff. 
     	I have to agree with Pittman for the most part. I owned a Deluxe Reverb
     (2-6V6s, 1-5Y3 rect) years ago, and to this day I think it was the best
     sounding amp I've ever owned. I'm reminded of that when I crank up my
     Gibson Ranger which is also 2-6V6s and a 5Y3. Even a friend remarked to
     me ago that the Ranger is the best sounding amp I own. My big mistake
     back then was thinking that the Twin Reverb I had my eye on, was going to
     be "better", so I sold the Deluxe and got the Twin. *HUGE* mistake...and
     it didn't end there. I actually got the Deluxe back from the guy, but...
     *I sold it again* to get a Super Reverb.
     (I'm beginning to wonder if I had GTS even back then)

     Doh!

     Neal

     (Say, I have an old Harmony 2-6V6, 1-5Y3 amp chassis w/chicken head knobs
     that's just waiting for me to build into a 2-input/2-vol/treble/
     middle/bass/presence monster. Hmmm....I think I got me a fall project.)

    Neal,
    
    
    my $.02....If ya want the tone of a tube amp cranked up, get an Ibanez
    Tube Screamer.....they can be dialed in for just the right tone.
    
    Steve

    Or a Mesa TriAxis anna Strategy 500...
    :-)

    Gee, Neal aintcha being a bit "harsh" on the old CM...8^)  8^)
    
    Actually, after dicking with it for awhile, I find that it sounds real
    cool into a speaker and great direct to tape but it really *is* too bright
    into an amp.  I think I may experiment with running it straight into a
    power amp and speaker and see if it still seems overly bright.
    
    Actually, the real reason Neal didn't like it was because of all the
    ICs in the signal path 8^)  8^)
    
    							Brian

>    Gee, Neal aintcha being a bit "harsh" on the old CM...8^)  8^)
    
     Yeah..I guess but.....



     I still don't like it. 8^)

>    Actually, the real reason Neal didn't like it was because of all the
>    ICs in the signal path 8^)  8^)

     Funny you should mention ICs. I have one o' them Marshall Bluesbreaker
     stomp box things. Well, I opened it up and smack in the middle of all
     these resistors and caps is a TL082 Bi-Fet input, 8 pin, dual  op-amp.
     I wasn't really surprised by that so much 'cuz I kind expected it. But
     it was just that the thing sounds really good. I mean I can go from
     "adding-a-little-bite" to "Marshall-w/all-knobs-on-11." It doesn't start
     at "Marshall-w/all-knobs-on-11" and go to "Beginning-of-the-Universe".

     I may be looking for crutch, but I ain't looking for *that* big a crutch.
     
     Neal-having-fun-with-the"-"key-today

   Add me to the list of unsatisfied Cream Machine users.  I got mine back in
   Sept. and was _really_ disappointed in it.  Even on the lowest gain
   settings it sounded like a Fuzz Face.  I was (am) looking for something
   that will give me a decent clean (or bypass) sound, as well as an edge of
   crunch.  I *assumed* (and we all know what happens when you do that) that
   the Cream Machine would provide this.  No dice.

   Now, I was trying to use it in a direct-to-board setting, but given the
   "cabnetulator" output I was hoping I'd have some success.  Uh-uh.

   I'm back to using my Soho thru a Red Box to the board, and while it's
   not perfect (real bad EQ change when going from clean to crunch) it's
   a LOT better (and more flexible) than the Cream Machine.  I'd really
   like to use my Marshall JCM800 and a 2x12, but in the situation I'm
   playing in (2 piece band in _real_ small places) it would be overkill.

   Interestingly enough, the manual for the Cream Machine also covers the
   H+K "Crunch Master" amp - a similar beast.  I wonder what it would sound
   like?  But Musician's Friend isn't selling them any more.  Oh, nevermind.

   BTW, the C.M. went back to M.F. on Saturday.

   -- Sam