Conference napalm::guitar

    I had an SG that had something that used bent spring metal bridge.
    They don't stay in tune...
    
    dbii

    Yo dbII,
    
    I had (the same?) a Gibson SG Les Paul that had one of those
    Bigsby-style spring type whammys and mine stayed in tune.  I even did
    this thing where I'd pull the strings sharp and hold the guitar flat so
    the little spring didn't fall out and then dive bomb it and it survived
    all that abuse.  There is a trick to keeping std whammys in tune
    (without a lock). 

    I've never had tuning problems with the " Maestro Vibrola" units
    on SG's or ES-355. They really do screw up the sustain, though--the
    difference between one of these and a stop tailpiece on a 355 is
    amazing.
    
    They also have a rather limited range compared to a Kahler.
    
    Back to .0--these are not recesssed into the body. The description
    sounds like one of their more current vibratos that need body routing.
    
    Danny W

    re: buck  
    
    I had both types the gibson one that was essentially a bridge built
    out of spring steel and the other that was the bigsby where the
    spring always fell out. niether one ever stayed even close to in
    tune, so I switched to strats that didn't fair a whole lot better....
    until the locking units came out...
    
    dbii

    All these older vibratos were designed for "gentler times", when
    a slight twang or light vibrato was all that was expected out of
    them.
    
    I doubt that Bigsby could have anticipated dive bombs.
    
    The worst type of vibrato is the old Gibson side-to-side (erroneously
    called the Lonnie Mack) Vibrola, which won't stay in tune even if
    you never touch it. But it sure looked nice.
    
    Danny W

    A few years ago, Gibson sold a unit called, with great originality,
    "The Whammy Bar", which looked a little like a Fender unit.
    
    Non-reverse Firebirds all came standard with Maestro Vibrolas which
    did not require body routing. I'd hate to think someone trashed
    an original instrument by installing a modern tailpiece that requires
    such extensive modification
    
    Danny W.

    I would reckon that it's the "whammy bar" unit by the sounds of
    things because it distinctly looked like a fender unit.
    Anyone know how good they are?
    Regards
    JJ
    

    I've never used the "Whammy Bar", but Gibson appears to have dropped
    it after a very brief period, in favor of Kahler and Rose type units.
    
    I'd suspect it wasn't too good.
    
    Danny W.

    I was just wondering why vibrato systems are so popular on some guitars,
    like Strats and all the speed metal axes, but don't seem to be on 
    Gibsons.  Is it because Gibson's attempts at designing their own systems
    haven't been too successful, or that Gibson's vibratos are significantly
    less attractive than their guitars, or that Gibson guitars don't lend
    themselves to the kind of music you need a whammy bar for, or that Gibson 
    players just aren't that type of people?

    And what vibrato systems have been designed for Gibsons?  I've read the
    replies in this note, and I've seen Biggsbys and Vibrolas, both of which
    detract a lot from the elegant simplicity of a tune-o-matic bridge and 
    stop tailpiece, in my opinion; both seem to have some problems, at least
    in someone's opinion.  And I've never seen a Floyd Rose or Kahler on a 
    Les Paul, SG or ES-335, but I hear one can get them, but the body has to 
    be routed out.

    Is this a Gibson design philosophy issue?  I've never seriously used a 
    whammy bar, but it seems if I wanted to I would have to buy a guitar
    that had one rather than having one installed on my Epi SG copy. 

    Just curious.

    Dave

>    And I've never seen a Floyd Rose or Kahler on a  Les Paul, SG or
>    ES-335, but I hear one can get them, but the body has to  be routed
>    out.         
    
    I've seen both Floyds and Kahlers on Les Pauls.  I consider it
    sacrilige and butchery...  You could even get Kahlers as a stock item
    from Gibson.
    
    I don't know the exact reason, but my guess is that people that play
    Gibsons just don't want trems.  I sure don't want one on my Gibson!
    
    Greg

    The Vibrola was used on Gibsons in the 60s, when surf music and *mild*
    whammy usage was the rage.  Notice that Fender even offered Bigsbys on
    Teles in those days.  The Les Paul was out of production after 1960,
    and when it was reintroduced in 1968, whammy usage was limited to Jimi
    Hendrix.  Curiously, in a 1972 catalog, all SG models had factory
    Bigsbys!
    
    Whammys didn't come back until Floyd Rose got prototype systems into
    the hands of folks like Van Halen and Neal Schon (who used his on a
    Paul!).  Once people discovered that whammys *could* stay in tune, the
    aftermarket produced some bars for Gibsons with stop tailpieces: the
    Bowen Handle and the Rockinger.  These lasted for a few years but I
    never met anyone who had/used one.
    
    Curiously, Strats themselves were out of vogue for most of the
    seventies.  While a few folks did go to Strats (notably Clapton, Beck
    and Richard Thompson) from Gibsons, the dual humbucker sound *was* the
    seventies.  Even Eddie V. didn't get a typical Strat tone, he just had
    the body and neck. It took a few years before Strat-mania took over; as
    late as 1983 most guitar brands were still pushing humbucker-equipped
    hardtail axes.  Gibson reacted about as well as could be expected to
    the Strat/whammy onslaught and did offer some vibrato options, but none
    were really that popular.  
    
    As far as having to buy a non-Gibson to get whammy, many of the current
    Gibson SG models (not the reissue types) do offer some sort of Whammy
    option.  Some Epis of a few years back even had Steinberger licensed
    bars.  
    
    						Brian

    
    that type of guitars to me it don't look good with the bar.
    Others look nice with  the bar. tRue??
    
    KL

    Well, I guess Greg and KL just don't think a whammy suits a Gibson, for
    whatever reason.  I understand that, it does seem incongruous somehow,
    but I suspect it's just what we're used to.
    
>      Once people discovered that whammys *could* stay in tune, the
>    aftermarket produced some bars for Gibsons with stop tailpieces: the
>    Bowen Handle and the Rockinger.
    
    Never heard of them (it figures Brian would have).  I wonder how they 
    looked/worked.
    
>    As far as having to buy a non-Gibson to get whammy, many of the current
>    Gibson SG models (not the reissue types) do offer some sort of Whammy
>    option.  Some Epis of a few years back even had Steinberger licensed
>    bars.  
    
    So all I have to do is buy a real SG, and I'll have that option.
    Thanks, all.
    
    Dave

    I meant to mention that I wouldn't expect to find a Floyd style on an
    SG 'cause the body's too thin and it'd stick out the back.  
    
>    but I suspect it's just what we're used to.
    
    I'm sure that's what it is, for me anyway.
    
    Greg

    As I mentioned in an earlier reply, Gibson Maestro Vibrolas  work well
    and hold tune if you use them gently. I also think they look terrific
    on certain guitars, like Cherry ES-355's.
    
    I currently have one Gibson with a more modern vibrato tailpiece--an
    L-5S with a Kahler! Sounds like sacrilege, doesn't it? I came across it
    in a store in Porter Sq. about 10 years ago. It's a '78 in Fireburst
    finish, with a beautiful, flamey, well-matched 3-piece top and some of
    the most colorful abalone inlays I've ever seen. 
    
    The guitar was a mess when I bought it--oxidized finish, bumpy frets,
    bowed neck, grungy gold, noisy electronics and several finish cracks in
    need of attention. The professionally installed, non-original Kahler
    was completely out of adjustment, too. Luckily, all this helped keep
    the price low enough so that I could have removed the Kahler and
    refinished the guitar and still have paid a reasonable price for it.
    
    When I got the guitar home I stripped the hardware off, power buffed
    the wood with every grade of Meguairs I had, pulled all the little
    setscrews out of the Kahler and cleaned and oiled all the parts,
    leveled and polished the frets, adjusted the truss rod (must remove the
    locking nut to do this), cleaned the pots (not easy on an L-5S--the
    wood access panel is a bear to remove) and then put it all back
    together .
    
    When I was done it was transformed. No one would mistake it for new,
    but it looks quite presentable. Strangely enough, the Kahler works very
    well on it, and doesn't look too out-of-place--I think the fact that
    the L-5S doesn't have a pickguard helps. The original truss-rod cover
    was cut down to provide room for the locking nut--I wish they had kept
    the original intact and cut down a generic cover. The neck set on an
    L-5S is very high above the body, so the strings are almost parallel to
    the top, where on an SG or LP they make a fairly steep angle
    approaching the bridge. This makes the Kahler set up and work better. 
    
    Being all maple, the guitar weights ton, but it has a very aggressive
    sound that works well for rock (check out the cover of a recent GP with
    Keith Richard on it--notice his black, single-pickup L-5S. These are
    great, under-appreciated rock guitars.) It does go out of tune more
    often than my L-5Ss without Kahlers, especially when I do hard bends on
    the 2nd or 3rd strings, even with the locking nut. Overall, though, I
    love to play it, and use it often for practice sessions and jamming. 
    
    Danny W.
     

    Interesting guitar - sounds like a player instead of a collector.
    
    Dave