Conference napalm::guitar

    I am considering the purchase of a rolland GP8 signal processor
    and am looking for any comments/suggestions/alternatives to look
    at. This unit seems phanominal. Am I right or is this just tunnel
    vision at work.
    
    Jim
    

    I thought that distortion sound was a bit lacking...kind of like
    a poor fuzz box...other than that it seemed pretty nice.
    
    dbII

    If I were then to get a DSP-1 for all of the other effects. Then,
    which distortion box is the most versitile to compliment the DSP-1.
    
    Jim
    

    
    Re: .2
    
    I would have to say the Rat by Proco is the best distortion unit
    available in a floor-type box.
    
    I haven't heard what is coming from Scholtz R&D these days, but
    he has a few half-rack distortion units.
    
    wjb

    I am only looking at rack mount units. for several reasons. Ease
    of access not being the least.
    
    Jim
    

    re: -.1
    I have the sholz rockmods for sale if they interest you...
                                            
    dave

    	What finally happened?  Did you get the DSP-1 or the GP-8?
    How do you like it?  Who makes the DSP-1?  What are the comparative
    costs?
    				Peter

    
    he got the DSP-128.
    
    From what I hear they're great units.
    
    wjb

    Hi 
    
    The DSP-1 is made by Yamaha and is repackaged and sold by several
    others (KORG and Roland to mention a few). The DSP-1 runs about
    $899 and the others are more than $1K. The DSP-128 is made by Digitech
    and runs about $300. The difference is that the DSP-1 has six outputs
    for stereo a center and subwoofer output. All to create the sonic
    dimensioning for surround sound and other hall effects. The DSP-128
    is setero in/out and does the same job cheaper. If, howeve this
    were for my stereo system I would use the DSP-1 although I plan
    some experimints with the DSP-128. I Use the Rockman sustainor for
    distortion effects along with several other fuzz/distortion units
    and wah-wah pedals.
    
    So far I am very pleased with this decision.
    
    Jim
    

    	I'm afraid the decision is getting tougher by the moment.  I
    only plan to use this effects box with a guitar.  My first priority
    is sound quality.  Preset programming is important so I don't have
    to fiddle with a hundred knobs between songs.  I'll summarize what
    I've seen in ads in the table below.  Comments, suggestions,
    corrections would be very helpful.
    	The Boss ME-5 is supposed to come out in 1-2 months.  It looks
    mighty good from the numbers.  It includes 16 bit digital reverb/delay,
    chorus/flanger, distortion/overdrive, equalizer (3 band), compressor,
    and an external effects loop.  It also includes a noise suppressor.
    It's in a floor box with 5 foot pedals.  You can add an EV-5 pedal
    to the chorus/flanger.  It has 64 presets (patches) and has MIDI.
    The digital delay goes up to 500 ms.  If the box matches the numbers,
    this thing sounds great!  
    	I have no info on the Yamaha DSP-1.  I know the Roland GP-8 has
    two more effects but I can't remember what they are.
    
    		Roland      Roland       Digitech       Boss       Yamaha
    		 GP-8       DEP-5        DSP-128        ME-5      SPX-90 II
                          
    S/N          ???         80dB          ???          ???         ???
    
    Presets       Y          ???            Y            Y           Y
    
    Effects     compressor                           compressor   compressor
                distortion                           distortion
                EQ          EQ                       EQ
                chorus      chorus       chorus      chorus       chorus
                delay       delay        delay       delay        delay
                ???
                ???
                            reverb       reverb      reverb       reverb
                                         flanger     flanger      flanger
                                                                  pitch-
                                                                  transpose
    
    List        $1050       $1095        $425        $875         $895
    
    Cheapest     $799        $699                                 $599
    I've seen
                                               
    
    				-Peter

    		Roland      Roland       Digitech       Boss       Yamaha
    		 GP-8       DEP-5        DSP-128        ME-5      SPX-90 II
                          
    Inputs                               Left/Right
    Outputs 
      Dry		                 Left/Right
      Wet                                Left/Right
    S/N          ???         80dB        >85db          ???         ???
    THD                                  0.08%
    Freq Resp
      Dry                                20-20k
      Wet                                20-12k
    Resolution                           16 bit PCM
    Presets       Y          ???            Y            Y           Y
     # of                                  128
   MIDI           Y                         Y            Y
     
    Effects     compressor                           compressor   compressor
                distortion                           distortion
                EQ          EQ           Filter      EQ
                chorus      chorus       chorus      chorus       chorus
                delay       delay        delay       delay        delay
      Range                              0-1800ms
                                         Multi-tap
                ???                      Bounce
                ???                      Stereo image
                                         Stereo Pan
                reverb       reverb      reverb       reverb
                                         reverse revb
                                         flanger      flanger     flanger
                                                                  pitch-
                                                                  transpose
    
    List        $1050       $1095        $425        $875         $895
    
    Cheapest     $799        $699        $299.9                   $599
    I've seen
                                              
    
    The DSP-1 Has all of the above effects including pitch shift has
    RCA type plugs for a stereo and NO MIDI bit has a hand held IR 
    remote. As I said previously Korg has repackaged it with less
    outputs and a MIDI interface for about $1200
    
    Jim
    

		Roland      Roland       Digitech       Boss       Yamaha
    		 GP-8       DEP-5        DSP-128        ME-5      SPX-90 II
                          
    Inputs                               Left/Right  Left/Right
    Outputs 
      Dry		                 Left/Right  Mono(tuner)
      Wet        Left/Right              Left/Right  Left/Right
    S/N          ???         80dB        >85db          ???         ???
    THD                      0.33%       0.08%
    Freq Resp
      Dry                                20-20k
      Wet       40-12k                   20-12k      30-10k
    Resolution                           16 bit PCM  16 bit PCM
   # of Presets  128         99            128          64          90
   MIDI           Y                         Y            Y
     
    Effects     filter                   filter
		compressor                           compressor   compressor
                overdrive
		distortion                           distortion
                phaser
		EQ          EQ                       EQ
                chorus      chorus       chorus      chorus       chorus
                delay       delay        delay       delay        delay
      Range     0-1000ms                 0-1800ms    0-500ms      0-2000ms
                                         Multi-tap
                                         Bounce
                                         Stereo image
                                         Stereo Pan
                reverb       reverb      reverb       reverb
                                         reverse revb
                                         flanger      flanger     flanger
                                                                  pitch-
                                                                  transpose
    
    List        $1050       $1095        $425        $875         $895
    
    Cheapest     $799        $699        $299.9                   $599
    I've seen
                                              
    
    The DSP-1 Has all of the above effects including pitch shift has
    RCA type plugs for a stereo and NO MIDI bit has a hand held IR 
    remote. As I said previously Korg has repackaged it with less
    outputs and a MIDI interface for about $1200
    
    Jim
    

    Re: .3
    
    A friend recommended the Ibanez Metal Charger over the Proco Rat.
    I haven't had a chance to play with one yet.  Any experience/comments
    with that box?
    				Peter (the) Hack

Hi All!

First I'd like to introduce myself.
I'm a guitar player (sometimes also playin' keyboards :-)) here
in Germany. My home is nearby Munich. I'm a member of a band playin'
'Top 40 Hits' and the whole stuff of 'dance music'.

Now my problem:

Last week I purchased the GP8 with Midi Foot Controller and the other
other pedal(can't remember the type:-( ). Before I purchased it, I checked
it out. The sounds were great!!
The problem now is, the one I took home doesn't have this great sounds!!!!
Now, what's the matter with my GP8??
Any suggestions??
Is someone out there who's willing to share his 'great sounds'??

Please post the patches here or send me mail on KBOMFG::MARTINEK

Many thanks to all of you.

Best Regards

		Wolfgang  (the guy from Germany)

    Was it running through an effects rack at the store??
    
    ....sounds reminiscent of a recent Keyboard soundpage touting the
    WX-7 wind controller. Seems that much of the sound was attributable
    to SPX-90s...
    
    Edd

>< Note 480.15 by JAWS::COTE "Hey Pachelbel, can I shoot that?" >
>                  -< Maybe you're hearing the naked truth... >-
>
>    Was it running through an effects rack at the store??
>    

Hi Edd!

No, there were no other effects!

Here is the 'set up':


	guitar------->GP8------->Power Amplifier


For example, in the store I've played a sound called '12string acoustic' or
'Fender Strat'(f.y.i. I've played a 'Gibson Les Paul') and it sounds like
a '12string acoustic' or 'Fender Strat'.
I think its only a problem of the GP8 parameters.

What do you think? Any suggestions?

Regards

		Wolfgang

    Well that would leave 2 places to look...
    
       I forgot if you said you were using the same amp as the demo
    set-up, so that could be one place.
    
    Also likely is the synth itself. The only way to verify this is
    to compare all the parameters of a given patch at home to whatever
    they use in the store, and adjust accordingly.
    
    Less probable would be the room acoustics, but something to take
    into consideration none the less...
    
    Good luck!
    
    Edd

    I forgot to mention one thing on the ME5. It has a manual mode
    that you can use. In order to enter the manual mode (you guessed
    it) you need yet another defeat-type foot switch (again the Boss
    FS5L would be the recommended switch). Once in the manual mode,
    you can tweak any parameter, and switch each effect on and off
    using the 5 foot switches
                     
    Mark 

    I went to Union Music after work and got more info and some lit
    on both units. 
   
     
    Corrections to base note:
    
    GP8 has "Dynamic Filter" rather than Envelope Follower, however
    the 2 are pretty much the same.
    
    ME5 accepts an expression pedal, however, it only controls the Flange
    or chorus depth, period (not too versitile).
                                
    The footswitches recommended for the ME5 for switching groups or for
    manual mode are FS5U, rather than FS5L (momentary, unlatched type, as 
    apposed to latch type)
    
    
    Additions to base note:
    
    Both units have midi in and out. The GP8 also has midi through.
    
    Both units have an electronic tuner output. On the GP8 model, the
    tuner output is on the FC100 foot controler unit. This is a nice
    feature, and a great way for Roland to push their TU12 tuners.
    
    The expression pedal connects to the FC100 foot controller unit.
    Without the FC100, you apparently can't use the pedal. (In other
    words, if you buy a GP8, plan on buying the FC100 along with it).
    The expression pedal can be programmed to control almost any parameter
    on the GP8 (ie, volume, eq, delay length, feedback, distortion,
    wah, etc). By programming the pedal assignment differantly for differant
    patches, it can control a differant parameter depending on which
    patch you choose (this can be extremely useful).
            
    The ME5 has a headphone jack for practicing without an amp. 
    Surprisingly, the GP8 does not appear to have a headphone jack.
                   
    The effects loop on the GP8 is placed between the EQ section and
    the Digital delay section, so that the delay is the last thing in
    the signal chain. The effect send also contains two control lines 
    for switching external effects on and off via a programming parameter.
    These would connect into a footswitch jack on any effects unit.
    
    The patch scheme on the GP8 is 8 banks, 8 sounds in each bank, and
    two groups for a total of 128 patches.
    
    *** One thing I found out tonight that seems like a major disadvantage
    on both units is that they do not work well in an effects loop of
    an amplifier when using the distortion channel of the amp. According
    to 2 salesmen in Union Music, they tried doing this with both units
    using a few differant amps, and got a great deal of noise with the
    amp in the distortion channel, especially when using certain effects
    like compression or dynamic filter. They could be wrong about this,
    but I wouldn't plan on buying either unit without checking this
    out first. I would hate to sacrifice the ability of useing one of
    these units in my effects loop. I suspect that the units may work
    ok with amps feating a buffered effects loop with level adjustments.
    
    Both units still have a certain apeal to me. The more I look at
    the GP8, the more I can understand the high price tag. This box
    seems to offer about the most flexibilty available in effects
    processors, while still being fairly easy to use. In the case of 
    the GP8, a person could buy one of these and not even use a guitar 
    amp, but go straight into a PA via the line level outputs. This 
    could help make the price a little more digestable knowing that 
    you don't necessariily have to have an amp besides. It would be 
    nice to show up at a gig with your guitar and
    a GP8 in a 19" effects rack and simply plug into the PA. 
                                                                       
    Hope I'm not boring anyone with all this raving about these  these 
    2 units. Now that I have entered the first 3 notes, I'll wait for
    someone else to reply.
    
    Mark Jacques
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Definitely not boring, Mark.  Thanks for the information.  I'd briefly
    looked at the ME5 in a store and it looked pretty interesting.
    
    I'm afraid they are both way out of the price range I could justify.
    Especially considering that neither do *everything* I might need.
    
    Greg

    I demo-ed the ME-5 last night.
    
    I was VERY impressed.  Mark is quite right in that with an ME-5 you
    really don't need an amp or really anything besides the guitar and
    the ME-5.  
    
    A key factor in this is that the ME-5 distortion/overdrive is both 
    quite good, and quite versatile.  I heard lots of "classic" heavy
    sounds in the presets that come with the unit.   I did NOT hear a
    "singing Boogie" of course, so I'm not about to sell my Boogie,
    although with an ME-5, I doubt my Boogie would get all that much
    use.
    
    One thing that Mark didn't mention (or I didn't notice) was that
    the ME-5 also has a noise gate, which is very important if you're
    running lots of serial effects.
    
    Also note, that for the same reasons you might not need an amp (except
    for monitoring of course), this unit is also EXTREMELY useful for 
    recording as you wouldn't need to mic an amp.  How many of us 
    4-tracksters have the control room facilities to really do a 
    good job mic'ing an amp? I don't!)  With this device and a good
    pair of monitors, you can really get exactly what you want out
    of it.
    
    Another factor folks ought to consider.  The unit is stereo.  I'm
    a long term advocate of stereo efx (delay mainly) - I think it's the
    biggest single improvement you can make in overall sound (going stereo
    that is).
    
    I demo-ed the unit in stereo using the two channels of a Roland JC-120
    (which is the amp I use).   I also A/B-d it against itself in mono,
    and the difference was quite dramatic (when a stereo effect was in
    use, it was hard to tell which effects were stereo, certainly the
    chorus/flange were).
    
    In fact, the salesman all came over and listened - one even said,
    "it never sounded that good before".
    
    Anyway, I was very impressed.  It may seem like a lot of bucks, but I
    consider it a bargain.   You could easily pay that much in separate
    boxes (yuck) and not end up with a nice integrated effects rigs 
    (not to mention it's other nicities like headphones, tuner output,
    MIDI, etc.
    
    In summary, if you:
    
    	o Got the bucks
    	o Like that "processed" guitar sound
    	o Hate boxes, patch cords, noise, etc
    
    This is really a great product and to the best of my knowledge, there's
    nothing like it in it's price range.  The GP-8 is both beyond my limit,
    doesn't add enough value to justify it's price when compared to the
    ME-5, and the ME-5 is "one piece" that's easy to carry and
    setup, whereas the GP-8 is generally more hassle.   In fact, with the
    headphone output, the ME-5 would function very well as a sorta "Rockman"
    even if you can't quite wear it on your belt.
    
    I may pick mine up today.
    
    	db

    In all fairness to GP8 owners, they are worth the money if you've
    got that kind of money to spend. I suppose most any working musician
    could justify the expense. The single biggest advantages of the
    GP8 over the ME5 are:
    	
    	1. The Dynamic filter - really a funky effect, especially with
    	an expression pedal. If anyone is into the Grateful Dead, I
        would bet you could get a pretty good Jerry Garcia wah sound from
        this. In fact, if I don't buy a GP8 (most likely I won't), I
    	will probably look for either a Boss dynamic filter with expression
    	pedal, or something comparable. This type of unit really is
    	everything a wah-wah pedal should be. You can use it automatically
    	in which case, it works similar to an envelope follower without
    	having to pump a pedal to get the wah effect. Or, for custom
    	accents kick in the pedal.
    
    	b. The ability to program the expression pedal to control any
        parameter your little heart desires. Imagine being able to
    	use the same pedal as a wah-wah,master volume pedal, delay
        length controller, flange/chorus sweep rate control, effect
        mix controller for fading in certain effects, the possibilities
    	are almost endless.
        
    
    	Admittedly, the GP8 is a really nice package, too. Rack mount
    is definately where it's at these days. This unit does not leave
    you at the mercy of the generic midi controllers on the market.
    They offer you an easy to use pedal board with plenty of presets
    to save you from having to hit more than one switch on the fly.
    Only one midi chord is needed to connect the FC100 the the GP8.
    The guitar plugs right into the front of the GP8 so your not
    climbing behind an effects rack.
    
    
    	Some people can't see spending a grand to 1500 on a guitar,
    or amp, but then there are the people with the PRS, Ibanez JEM's,
    Mesa Boogies, Marshalls, etc. etc. Like people have said in previous 
    notes, if it makes your job easier, makes your playing sound better, 
    inspires you, etc, only you can decide whether it's justifiable or not.
    
    
    Mark Jacques
    
    

    When I said "it didn't add enough value to justify its price" I had
    thought it was clear that I was saying "for my needs and priorities".
    
    I would highly value an expression pedal to control more than just
    chorus or flange.  Remember the trouble I went to in my rig to put
    the effects on a volume pedal.
    
    Actually, with a little creativity and a pan pedal, I think you
    bring in the ME-5 gradually in and out as an effect.  I've already
    designed a signal path that would let you do that.
    
    If Boss would have just made the expression pedal control the
    effects mix level, they'd probably sell more expression pedals.
    
    At least ONE more ;-) 
    
    	db

    
    	I'm a GP8 owner and love it. I went all out and got a 1300 dollar
    loan and bought the whole nine yards.  Instead of getting the boss EV5
    expresion pedal I got the MORELY equivilent. It's just a volume pedal
    with the right electronics. I found you can use headphones with this
    unit. You plug into either of the lineout's.  Now the sound will only
    come out of one side unless you have a monoral headphone set. I over
    came that problem by buying two male plugs and a stereo female. To
    comment on the question of GP8 through effects loop. It does not work
    good at all. In fact it is so bad I could say simply it does not work.
    	I started out using the GP8 through a Peavey M-2600 stereo power
    amp and Peavey 4x12 flight cab split to be stereo.  This eventually
    became a hassell becuase some effects are louder than others so there
    is alot of volume ajusting.  It was not as flexible as I thought it
    would be. In fact I think it was more of a problem.  I then went back
    to my old faithfull Peavey Road Master.  This turned out to be for me a
    killer combonation. The Road Master had two channels and two seperate
    EQ's.  Both channels I used cleaned with one louder than the other. 
    Thats one thing I liked about Peavey is that you can dial in the
    distortion instead of having it or not.  On the Road Master the lead
    channel had a nob called pump which aloud you to dial in the distortion
    on others I've seen it's called saturation.  I talk more tonight i'm
    having system problems.
    
                       Tim Hastings  SHR1 operator

    I got a reply by mail asking if a play in a band called TRAZOM.
    
    Answer: Yes.  I tried send mail back but you disk quota was exceeded.
    
                 F.Y.I.  Tim Hastings

    More on my setup with the GP8.
    
      	My next venture will be a Peavey Stereo Chorus Head with two 4x12. 
    	This should prove to be a killer because of the versatility of the
    head unit. Well thats it for my anventures with the Roland GP8. I will
    write again to tell about my new system.
    
             GP8 lover  Tim Hastings

    Buckley, are you the one who did sound for us ?
    
    I still can't send you mail.  Disk Quota..
    
                            Tim

I'm a 'GP8 lover' too!!!!!! :-)

For me, this kind of stuff sounds great.

My setup is as follows:

                                              +----------------+
                                +------------>|                |
                                |    left     |   Soundcraft   |
Dean Markley(Preamp)----->GP8---+             |     24/4/2     |
                                |    right    |                |
                                +------------>|                |
                                              +----------------+


Best regards

		Wolfgang

    Refrence to 860.11 I havn't heard of soundcraft. Could you fill me in?
    
    I was in Germany this time last year... It's great over there !
    
                  Tim

>< Note 860.12 by MPGS::HASTINGS >                                          <
>                          -< !! GP8 CAN'T BEAT IT !! >-                    <
>                                                                           <
>    Refrence to 860.11 I havn't heard of soundcraft. Could you fill me in? <
>                                                                           <
>    I was in Germany this time last year... It's great over there !        <
>                                                                           <
>                  Tim                                                      <



Hi Tim!

The 'soundcraft is a 24 channel mixing console with 4 subgroups. It's price
range here in germany is very high. (I think about 15.000 .- DM ) The owner
is one of the band members I'm playing in. The mixing console of it's own sounds
very, very great. So the GP8 hasn't to do a hard work :-) !!


		Wolfgang

P.S. What's about the bavarian beer :-) :-) ????  My home is in bavaria!!

    re. .9  Why not just buy a stereo power amp in stead of getting
    into a Peavey stereo chorus head. The GP8 has all the preamp
    cabability you need, why run the signal into another preamp
    stage for nothing. Get a power amp and go straight to the 
    speaker cabs. This way, you could rack the GP8 and power amp 
    together as well.
    
    Mark Jacques
    

    Hi,
    
    I've been reading the Gp-8 notes for quite a while.  Recently, I
    have seen Gp-8 rigs in various local music add books and I am getting
    tempted.  What I am really interested in is how much people paid
    for the whole gp8/fc100/ev5 setup.  If you want send me mail.
    
    ADVAthanksNCE
    Joe

    I've been to route of a stereo power amp.  I peviously had a Peavey
    M-2600 steroe power amp with 130 watt's per at 4 ohms.  I like to have
    two clean channels, one louder than the other, in order to have a
    rythem and lead volume. This way I could play a solo clean or dirty
    with the boost in volume. On most amplifiers the second channel is
    just a dirty channel.
     With the GP-8 power amp combonation it was not easy, to me anyways, to
    produce this desire.  There was much and constant change in the effects
    volume level becuase different effect combonations would be louder or
    softer depending on the effects used.  Example. The Overdrive is louder
    than the distortion.
     My original plan was to use a power amp and for awhile I thought it
    was the greatest thing.  Maybe the power amp was not powerful enough I
    don't know.  My original setup was a Peavey Road Master.  This had two
    seperate channels, lead and rythem, but the lead did not have to  be
    distortion, you could dial in.  This worked super becuase you could
    crank it up with little distortion. Of course you next to always have
    a little distortion running at 160 watts.  Unfortunatley this head got
    stolen.  So now I'm looking into this Stereo chourus head which has the
    same idea as the Road Master plus it's stereo adn 130 watt's per.
    
      Well that's why i'm going with a steroe head.  Anymore questions ?
     
                   Tim

    > Note 860.13
    	Are you using this live or studio? sounds studio to me.
    
        I was staying in Zirndorf with my girlfriend from the states, she
    was pregnet with our kid. I tried all the Zirndorf and liked them all
    except for the Vicen, I think that's how you spell it. I'm refering to
    the one were the yeast is still fermenting. The other I tried was
    Pilsoner and liked that as well.
    
            Thanks for the input !
                                       Tim
    

< Note 860.17 by MPGS::HASTINGS >

>>>>  	Are you using this live or studio? sounds studio to me.  <<<<


Hi Tim!

I'm using this setup on stage. If you have any questions, please feel
free to send me mail.


Best Regards

		Wolfgang


P.S.  The beer with the yeast is called 'Weizen'. You're right, it's
      a special trend of taste.
    
    

I just bought a GP8 with the whole works today - I can't wait to get 
home and try it out. I was really blown away by the whole package.

Someone asked about prices - this is the deal I got (I'm brutal on 
salespeople):

GP8, FC100 foot controller, EV5 expression controller, and 3-high 
rackmount case: $1100 at E.U. Wurlitzer in Boston. (after much 
negotiation)

I'm hoping that my new gig will be successful enough to pay this off 
quickly.

-Dan

    A friend of mine (non-DEC) just purchased a GP8 and we burned it
    in over the weekend.
    
    Before I go out and buy one, I have a question that is more audio
    related than anything else (bear with me, I'm new to this stuff).  
    In the audio world, the trend is to go with separates (components) 
    for a cleaner sound.  Why would it be different in this case with
    the guitar and GP8?  Sure it is easier to work with but can you
    get a cleaner, better sound with separate effects units?
    
    Mike

        
    >Sure it is easier to work with but can you
    >get a cleaner, better sound with separate effects units?

    I sense this may be one of those "opinion" issues.  
    
    Personally, I think you can not only get a `cleaner' sound with
    separate effects (meaning, you can get way better bandwidth/freq
    response), but also you have more flexibility over changing parameters
    and creating new sounds with separate units.  It does have it cons
    though, like the more separate units you have, the greater chance of
    failure due to bad cords, and its hard to locate a bad cords once it
    does go wrong.  Also, sometimes you get ground loops with all those
    units.
    
    Ask yourself how much `control' you need over your sound, and then ask
    yourself if you are willing to put up with the possible headaches of
    equip failure (of course if a delay craps out, you can just take it out
    of line). 

    re: .20-.21
    
    I also am a new owner of a GP-8.
    
    To me, the comparison with audio equipment is like apples and
    oranges.  The design criteria are drastically different.  There
    are more things different than things in common.
    
    I agree with Buck.  The principle advantage of component systems
    is really flexibility.   There's no reason why the audio world 
    couldn't make a combined system that's just as good as seperate
    components.  The problem is that it would be:
    
    	1) Extremely expensive and you'd have to buy it all at once
    
    	2) It would be very large physically
    
    	3) If a new technology arrives you can't "replace" that component.
    
    To me, the issues are totally different in the context of live signal
    processing.
    
    	1) It has to be portable
    
    	2) It has to be easy to setup and breakdown
    
    	3) The components of the system have to be well integrated.
    
    That last bullet item is the key one.
    
    If you are playing live, you want to be able to go from a sound with
    chorus, distortion, reverb and short delay to a sound with flanging,
    overdrive, no reverb and long delay without having to tweak knobs
    on your flanger, chorus, overdrive, distortion, reverb and delay.
    
    In fact, you really don't even want to have to take your hands 
    off the guitar.
    
    You can assemble a component system that will do that (via MIDI).
    It will cost your far more than I imagine you would ever want to
    spend; it will be a constant source of noise and problems because
    of all the chords and connections, and you probably will need two
    people to carry it, and 2 hours to set it up and break it down.
    
    The Roland GP-8 has extremely fine audio qualities.  And probably
    costs about the same as TWO high quality dedicated boxes even
    though it is the functional equivalent of EIGHT boxes.
    
    To me, there's no question that if you want more than 2 or 3 effects
    in your setup, you are ABSOLUTELY better off with something like
    the GP-8.
    
    Having racks of dedicated units is only practical for most successful,
    affluent pros.
    
    	db

    re: .21,.22
    
    Oh! :-)
    
    Thanks for the input!  Both replies make great sense to me and I
    guess I was comparing 2 different animals.
    
    I agree that the GP8 is a great unit and is already on my wish list!
    
    Mike

    Thanx to the replies in this note I am anxiously awaiting my tax
    refund check so I can run out and grab my GP-8, foot controller,
    and expression pedal !!!  I tried one out a week ago and LOVED it.
    I can get the whole set-up for $1050, which sounds more than
    reasonable to me.
  
    
    
    				Jerry

    I'm buying a GP-8 and the works Tuesday, and I can relate to a few
    back where the unit didn't sound as well at home.  In the store
    they had it running through a Midi-Verb and a limiter.  When I cut
    these off, the sound changed drastically.  The thing I like most
    about the GP-8 is the programability.  Some of the best tones I
    heard from it were NOT presets.  Any of you GP-8 owners care to
    share some of your favorite non-presets with the *new* owner ?
    
    
    
    				Scary

    Does the GP8 have a repeat & hold pattern in the digital delay?
    If not what is the least expensive unit that does.  What I have
    in mind is the "Playmate" function on the Roland SDE3000 that holds
    an 8 second pattern and will put it into a loop.
    
    Mike    

    Nope, no repeat/hold function.  But if you play around with it some
    you could probably coax about 4-5 seconds of repeats out of it.
    
    
    				Scary

    ...cheapest unit that will?
    
    I'd check out the Digitech delays.  I have an RDS3600 which will
    do 8 second infinite repeats which only cost about $400 4 years
    ago.  I think that their stomp box DDLs have a repeat/hold function
    on them.
    
    Greg

    
    8 second delay???  Aack, does it have a 2-4K bandwidth or what??
    
    Thats what I hate about Digitech delays is the bandwidth
    response...nil!
    
    Buck

    
    Their current model with the 7.6 second delay claims 15K bandwidth.
    Watch out,  the RDS3.6, with 3.6 second delay is only 8K bandwidth!!!
    
    

    Yeah, it's switchable bandwidth.  Three settings that allow you
    to split the memory in it allowing longer delays. 
    
    If I remember right it's 1.6 sec at 16k, 3.4 at 8k, and 7.6 at 4k.
    According to the delay time display, it actually goes to over 8 secs
    though, but that might be in error.
                                                      
    Figure that the thing is almost 5 years old now.  When it came out,
    those specs were reasonably good, especially considering that it only
    cost ME about $250 (new).  Since I don't often use the long delays like
    that, it still fits my needs reasonably well.  The bandwidth limitation
    only seems to affect the wet signal anyway and I don't expect a lot of
    response in an echo signal, since I'll almost always be playing
    something in front of it which I'd rather have more emphasis on. 
                                                                     
    Greg

    I have a question for you seasoned GP-8 owners.  I have the GP-8,
    FC-100, and EV-5.  I also have an Alexis Midiverb II.  I would like
    to use the GP-8 to trigger patches in the Midiverb.  Say if I was
    in A-4-3 and I wanted to have patch 30 on the Midiverb, what do
    I have to do to the GP-8 to program that ? And if I go to A-4-8
    and want patch 18 on the Midiverb, can I program that as well ?
    I read the "midi" section on the GP-8 manual, and the "midi" section 
    on the patch card for the Midiverb and I'm rather "midi"-confused ....
                          
    
    				Scary ...

    Well , I don't have a GP-8, but I do have a ton of MIDI gear,
    so this will probably help. (The GP-8 may have some capabilities
    I'm not aware of, but the whole process is generally the same
    across all MIDI gear. This will at least get you started.)
    
    I assume the FC-100 is a foot controlled MIDI patch change
    generator. (Seems like a reasonable guess. I don't imagine the
    letters FC stand for fruit cocktail...)
    
    If you have a MIDI THRU port on the back of the GP-8, connect a
    MIDI cable from the GP-8 THRU port to the MVII IN port.
    
    Set them both to receive on the same MIDI channel.
                
    The MVII allows you to save any of its' 100 programs to any of 32
    patch memory slots. (See the details of how to do this in your MVII
    programming card.)
    
    When you select a patch (configuration) by stepping on the FC-100,
    you are generating a "select patch (nn)" message where (nn) is a
    number from 00-127. The MVII wil recognize the first 32 of these,
    so you may need to move some of the patches around inside the
    GP-8.
    
    Say you want to use the configuration stored in patch 1 of the
    GP-8 and want to have a light chorus with it. Store PROGRAM 60
    on the MVII into PATCH 1. Now, when you step on the  FC-100 you
    send a message to the GP-8 saying "use patch 1". The GP-8
    changes patches, and sends the same message out the THRU port and
    on to the MVII which, since it is set to the same MIDI channel,
    reacts by selecting ITS' OWN patch 1, which contains the light
    chorus program.
                                        
    The GP-8 may allow you more flexible routing and re-mapping of
    patch change messages. I also may not have used the same terms
    ("patch", "program") that Roland uses; that might be a source of
    confusion (There is no rhyme or reason to the way Roland abuses
    the English languge.), but this is a basic MIDI set-up that should
    get you going...
    
    Edd            

    Edd,
    
>    I assume the FC-100 is a foot controlled MIDI patch change
>    generator. (Seems like a reasonable guess. I don't imagine the
>    letters FC stand for fruit cocktail...)
    
    Well, it is a reasonable guess, but it's not quite true.
    
    The FC-100 sorta does act as a MIDI patch change generator and sorta
    doesn't.
    
    For one thing, its output cord is NOT a MIDI cable and you don't plug
    it into MIDI IN.  The reason it's not is because it does a lot more
    than generate MIDI commands. It does a few other things so as not to
    require you to run much more than one cable from your pedal board to
    your rack.
    
    The cord also:
    
    	o Carries power to the FC - nice not to have to worry about
          running power to your pedal board.
    
    	o Carries the input signal to the FC for use on a "tuner output".
          You can plug a tuner right into the FC-100.  Actually, using
    	  a tuner is just one application of a more general concept
          called the control function.  You can also use it to do signal
          routing (I use it as an A/B switch between my Boogie and my
          JC-120).
    
>    If you have a MIDI THRU port on the back of the GP-8, connect a
>    MIDI cable from the GP-8 THRU port to the MVII IN port.
    
    You actually run it from the MIDI OUT of the GP-8 to the MIDI IN
    of the MV II.
    
    	db

    Thanks Dave, I figured I'd get nailed on a couple details like that,
    but I'm sure you'll agree my basic premise was correct....
    
    Do I want a GP-8?
    
    Edd

    Anyone own the Digitech GSP-5?  How does it compare to the GP8 in
    functionality and $$$?
    
    Sorry if this was covered already.
    
    Mike

    > Do I want a GP-8?
    
    I dunno.
    
    I've had it for enough time to use it now and sorta have some
    conclusions about it.
    
    If all you are looking for is to combine some of your effects
    into one convenient box, I might actually be more inclined to
    save some bucks and get an ME-5.  It's far more convenient (one
    package (pedalboard, instead of pedalboard and rack-mount), a
    lot less expensive and does all the basic things the GP-8 does
    including one very basic thing that the GP-8 does NOT do: reverb.
    
    I didn't consider the lack of reverb to be significant because
    every amp I own has builtin reverb that's more than enough for
    gigs, and I have digital reverbs that I use for recording.
    
    The GP-8 is probably better if you have a semi-complex rig
    that includes other efx processors.  The GP-8 does some wonderful
    signal routine tricks.
    
    	db

    
    Re: .23
    
    The GSP-5 is in the $500 range, that's about half of a GP-8.  It
    includes a "foot controller" at that price, but beware, this just lets
    you bypass the effects and kick your preset number up or down (i.e. for
    live use, you would need to put your presets in consecutive order for
    recall). 
    
    Internally, you get up to five effects simultaneously, these are
    mostly delay type things (flange, chorus, echo, reverb) some EQ
    functions and distortion.  Unlike the GP-8, which seems to be
    hot-rodded Boss stomp box circuits controlled by a microprocessor,
    the GSP-5 is a true digital signal processor.  It's really just a
    DSP-128 modified to provide more simultaneous effects at the price
    of some bandwidth (only 15K instead of 20K).  
    
    Price wise it is competing more with the ME-5.
        

      Another vote for the GP-8. I've had my set-up about a year and
    have had nothing but good things to say. I use the ext-1 and ext-2
    programmable outputs to control channel switching on my amp. Of
    course this almost completely eliminates using the distortion and
    I use overdrive on maybe two patches. The Kitty Hawk M1 amp has
    a two-function overdrive, so along with the clean channel you
    have an overdrive with a lower-mid boost (boogie-type), an overdrive
    with an upper-mid boost (marshall) and combination mode with both
    active simultaneously (mega-overdrive). I use both ext outs to do
    this since even with the footswitch it's not easy to activate both
    switches at the same time.
      I had a problem with the fact that the sleeve of the ext outputs
    were common to the sleeve of the line-out to the input of my amp.
    I thought the ext outs would be totally isolated. On some amps
    (like my Marshall) this doesn't cause a problem. But some amps
    (like my Kitty Hawk M1) don't like having the sleeve of the input
    jack tied to the sleeve of the footswitch jack. It must have been
    doing something to the DC level of the preamp. No damage to the
    amp but it killed the signal. I solved the dilemma by building a
    relay-isolation circuit out of parts from Radio Shack. The "prototype"
    box eliminates the need for the footswitch and lets the GP-8 take
    control of the amps switching.        
      NOW this rig cooks!
    

I'm using the GP-8 along with a Midiverb II and a DOD stereo Aural Exciter, 
going from there into a 100W Marshall to a 4x12 cab, and a 60W Bogen power 
amp/eq into a 4x12 cab.  I never really thought about how much the Marshall 
changes the color of the sound until I recently started using the Bogen.  
The Bogen really alows the subtle effects to come through.  Even though the 
Marshall is a MOSFET solid state, it still is "dirty" to a degree on the 
clean channel.  I was very pleased with the GP-8 before the Bogen, but now 
I really love it.

But I'm still having trouble with the midi funtions ... do I need to have 
the FC-100 plugged in to make the switches on the Midiverb or does it 
matter ?  I read up on all the midi-literature that came with both units 
and the impression I get is that I should go from midi OUT on the GP-8 to 
midi IN on the Midiverb, right ?   Wrong ?  Go back to stomp boxes ?


			??? Scary ???

    You won't need the FC-100 to change patches on the MVII. By connecting
    to the MIDI OUT of the GP-8, and patch changes generated BY that
    unit are transmitted to the MIDI IN port of the MVII.
    
    Are you having trouble getting that to happen?
    
    Edd

    Sheesh Jerry, bring your rack over and we'll get it to happen.
    I seem to have a knack for this networking stuff.
    
    ;^)

    The GP-8 manual *leads me to believe* that I need to be connecting
    the midi-through to the midi-in on the Multiverb.  It didn't make
    sense to me, but I did it anyway.  Needless to say, the midiverb
    said "I can't hear you !!".  I'll go midi-out --->midi-in on the
    'verb when I get home.  We'll see, and hopefully hear too !
    
    
    
    				Scary

    The thing you must determine is where the patch change command
    originates from. You must connect to the MIDI OUT port on the
    device that originates the command. According to Dave Blickstein,
    who I have no reason to doubt (I'm sure he knows MIDI as well as
    I do), the GP-8 is the source of the command.
    
    I've had some problems with both of my MVIIs when trying to get
    them to respond to patch changes, but I've yet to determine if
    it was a hardware, software or cockpit error.
    
    The GP-8 *may* have a software switch you have to turn on before
    it will transmit. My DX does.
    
    Edd

    Well, I certainly have recieved a wealth of information on this,
    so hopefully with any luck at all (other than bad ...), Mr. Midiverb
    will be talking with Mr. GP-8 in about an hour !  Thanks to all
    who gave advice ...
    
    
    
    				Scary

    Well? Are they friends?
    
    Edd

    $ SET SCARY=DUMB_SH*T <return>
    
    I got home and played around with it, no good.  So finally, I just
    set the GP-8 on a patch, set the Midiverb on a patch, pressed either
    "Program" and "Store", or "Patch" and "Store" together, and, eureka,
    that's it !  Now they're talking and I've got a blue zillion reverbs.
    Just prior to that I did a "Bulk Dump ALL" deal with the GP-8, don't
    know if that coaxed them into conversation or not.  Whatever I did,
    or didn't do worked - I won't ask any questions, until I get another
    midi device that is ....... 8^) x 500000k ....
    
    
    
    				midi-Scary

    When I tried the Gp-8 in a store it seemed like another multi-effects
    unit , quiet but not particularly astounding. Last night I saw John
    Hall (of Orleans) using one and he got a fabulous sound...of course
    he also had some fantastic sound re-enforcement, but since I was
    right up front I got more of his amp and less of the PA...and it
    still sounded good to me....
    
    dbii

    I got a chance to hear a GP-8 used by John Hall (formerly of Orleans)
    Sunday night. I was impressed with the sound, much more than I was in
    the music stores where I've heard them....of course John had some sound
    re-enforcement but since I stood right in front of him, I couldn't hear
    the mains that well and got to hear his amp (what appeared to be an old
    white tolex covered boogie?) very clearly and directly. He 'drove'
    it with an old (and I mean old/beatup) strat that looked to be quite
    stock..                                                            
    
    dbii

    The secret to having success with a GP-8 is writing your own patches.
    The factory presets, for the most part, merely demonstrate what
    the various effects can do.  Only a few of them would really be
    practical for a live situation.  Presently I use the "A" bank for
    all the patches I write and leave the "B" bank alone, since they
    contain the same presets anyway, just arranged differently.  You
    would really have to be playing some diverse styles of music to
    burn up 128 patches !
    
    
    				Scary ...

    I need to verify the competiveness of some prices offered by the
    locals.  How do these 'deals' sound?
    
    Boss ME5 - $644 (reg. $825)
    Fender Strat - $210
    Kramer Nightswan, thin neck, Floyd Rose, Seymour Duncan JB & Full
        Shred pickups, 24 frets, ebony fretboard, 24 3/4 scale - $188
    Les Paul - $350
    Ibanez EX350 - $349
    Guild D-25 - $550
    Martin D-28 - $649
    
    Thanks,
    Mike
    

    re: .41
    
    Boss ME5 - I can get one for $618 from the store I always deal with
               (which gives me really good deals), so it sounds like you're
               in a pretty close range.
    
    Fender Strat - Sounds like a pretty good price, even for a Squire if
                   it's new or in real good shape
    
    Kramer Nightswan - $188????   Surely you typed that price wrong?  If not, 
                       it's totally destroyed, right?

    Les Paul - Sounds reasonable, if it's in halfway decent shape.
    
    I don't know on the others...
    
    Greg

    Greg, all the prices were taken from newspaper ads for new equipment.
    When you have it in writing, you pretty much got them where you
    want them.
    
    Mike    

    If you can get that Kramer for $188 you'd better not be reading notes
    before you do it!  That HAS to be wrong!
    
    Greg

    Yeah, and if you do get it for $188, then I'll give your $200 for
    it and you'll make $12 cash profit !!
    
    ;^)

    Don't those babies go for like $1K+ ?
    
    jc

    In the Uk we pay something like �780. So if you translate that it
    would be around the $1320.
    
    Bonzo

    I went and checked the ad again since you guys got all excited.
    It said $188 and up.  You know what that means...
    
    Major bummer: guitar shop near my house was giving away a $500 Fender
    Strat as part of their anniversary sale.  I showed up 5 minutes
    before the drawing to enter my name.  The guy that came in right
    after me (last one in the drawing too) won the guitar!
    
    Mike

    Anyone ever demo the Roland GS6 Digital Guitar Sound system?
    
    Mike

    
    RE: .48
    
    Hi Mike!
    
     A friend of mine bought a GS6 and I had a quick look at it so I
    can tell you just very little about it. As I am a GP-8 user I
    saw some differences between these two devices. As a big advantage
    the GS6 has a swichable noise gate. Changing params of effects seems
    to be a hard work on the GS6 compared to the GP-8 - for me it's
    not userfriendly. 
     One thing I was really interested in: the GS6 should be able to
    create sounds like a Marshall. I had not enaugh time to check that
    by patching; the preset sounds (overdrive, distortion) are simply	
    terrible. Preset sounds in the GP-8 are not all you can dream of
    either, but compared to the GS6 it's a lot better.
     So thats not much what I can tell you, but if you have some more
    questions let me know and I will find it out for you.
    
    
     One more question about new equipment:
    
     Does anybody know something about the KORG A3 (compared to the
    GP-8)?
    
    thanks
    Guenter
    

    
    One cool feature about the GS-6 (whether it really works is a good
    question) is that they have included a hum filter.

    The GS-6 digitizes the guitar signal as soon as it enters the box,
    and once in the digitial domain, things like ultra-narrow notch
    filters centered at the major harmonics of 60 Hz (or 50 Hz, it's
    tunable) are possible that would be ridiculously expensive to do
    in the analog domain.  
    
    The hum filter in combination with the noise gate supposedly allow
    almost totally noiseless operation even with single coil pickups that
    are not properly shielded (like most Strats).
    
    							Brian 

    I don't know much about the GS-6, but I've played with a Boss Guitar
    Driver and was able to get some really good distortion sounds out of
    it.  I've been told that the GS-6 has the same circuitry in it, just
    that it's programmable where the BGD is not and has other effects. 
    (this could be bogus)

    The GS-6 also has reverb doesn't it?  I thought that was a big
    deficiency in the GP-8.

    Greg

      
    
      I know I'm gonna catch it for this, but...
    
      Yes, I use my KH/GSP-21/SP-1000 MIDIrack exclusivly on gigs. No
    problem with sound quality/versatility at all. So why did I jump
    on American Musical Supply's Boss ME-5 $399 special?
      I practice in a rented rehearsal hall where my band can make
    all sorts of noise and not be bothered. I'm not gonna leave my >$2000
    baby there. And after carrying if a few times, I decided this is
    not fun either. So I bagged the ME-5 as a practice effects unit
    to drive a spare combo for rehearsal. I'm even looking into something
    different to plug it into at rehearsal as well. The price on the
    ME-5 was $150 lower than all the other trade mags I've received.
    Granted it's not the most up-to-date processor on the market,
    (my GSP-21 is! 8*>) but it is very good sounding, very portable, 
    and built like a Boss unit.
    
    							-BooM-

    I do the same thing - kinda.  For gigs, I use the GP-8 (not in a rack
    ...) but for practice I use a small Peavey amp and a Chandler Tube
    Driver (no rack either ...).  It's good enough for practice - also
    makes me tend to ease off on effects overkill on the GP-8.  I get used
    to none, and in turn, tend to use less live.  Sounds a LOT better !
    
    Scary

    Hey, the ME-5 is really a great package.
    
    It's certainly a lot more convenient than the GP-8.  There are times
    I wish I had gotten an ME instead of a GP-8 (no trade offers PLEASE
    ;-)).
    
    With the GP you gotta run lines between the foot controller and the
    rack, you gotta have a rack, it doesn't have reverb whereas the ME
    does.
    
    The ME, you plug your guitar in, the AC in, the amp out, and your
    set.
    
    I mainly use the GP-8 for sorta "processed" sounding guitar for
    recording.  I've never brought it to a gig.  Too much extra to carry.
    I also play keys so I don't want to spend forever setting up and
    tearing down a complicated keyboard rig AND a complicated guitar rig.
    
    	db

    Got a question for you guys ...
    
    If I wanna stick something in the effects loop on the GP-8, should I be
    using the line level ins/outs on the effect or instrument ins/outs ?
    
    I'm toying with the idea of putting my Tube Driver there ....
    
    Scary

    Tube Driver in the FX loop ?
    <insert bruins game at the garden>
    Eeeeeeeeeeeeeettttt...
    
    No score.  Don't do it.  Put the GP8 in the FX loop of your Chadler,
    put not the other way, dude.
    
    jc
    
    

    And run it at line level if possible

    Nope - the Chandler doesn't have an FX loop ... and the GP-8 is a
    preamp *only*.  The Chandler can be run as a preamp or as an effect
    before a preamp.
    
    The reason for doing things this way is so I can use the GP-8's
    compression before the Chandler, not after ....
    
    Scary (wonderin')

    Just a thought.  Doesn't seem like a distortion box type thingie would
    work to well in a loop is all...
    
    jc

    I figure if the effects are already in a loop (internally), wtf, I'll
    give it a spin, got nothing to lose ...
    
    Scary (who probably try both ways in the morning ...)

    
    	Exactly, Jerry.  Give it a spin.  The efx loop implies line
    	level unless both types are available, but if it sounds good and 
    	the doc says it won't blow up, go for it.  Also, if any of the 
    	other effects in the loop have in/out level adjustments, you can 
    	compensate for what is down stream.  Also, there is a pretty good 
    	discussion in the GP "Amps" issue this month about efx loops, etc.

I've been using a GP-8 live on gigs for almost two years now, and I still love
it. Over the years, I've customized some of the stock sounds to suit my own
taste (I tend to like a "processed sound", though). A few months ago, I also
added a GR-50 guitar synth to my rack and added GK-2 synth pickups to two of
my guitars. It's really made a difference in the sound, although I still have a
ways to go learning about the complexities of using a guitar as a synth 
controller.

Anyways, would anybody be willing to share some of their GP-8 patch 
modifications in this note? 

-Dan

(I'll add my own soon.)

    Thought I'd try and revive a dead note :-
    
    Anybody still own and use and like the Boss ME5 unit ?
    
    -tony