Conference hydra::amiga_v1

re: 4587.0 

	Check out the Grapevine Group's ads in Amazing Computing
	or Amiga Whirled.  They sell the Commodore maintenance
	manuals for the A2000 and the A500.  

	There should be a set of A2000 schematics in the back of
	the (otherwise useless) manual that comes with the machine,
	though I don't know how current those prints are...

	~art

    I bought the March issue of Amazing Computing, which by the way has a
    good review on the Video Toaster, but I couldn't find any add by
    Grapevine Group.  I'll check out Amiga Whirled.
    
    Thanks,
    ~Ray
    

    Ray,
    	the ad for The Grapevine Group is on page 29 in the March Amazing
    Computing. Covers about 1/4 of the page and does not flaunt the
    corporate logo.

    Dave,
    I'm going to order the service manual for the A2000, do you know
    anything about the Amiga Diagnostician and/or do you know of any
    good utilities for the A2000?
    
    Thanks,
    ~Ray

    
    Ray,
    
    I can't answer your question but I was wondering where/how you go about
    ordering the A2000 service manual.  I would like one also:
    
    Back in December I ordered one from the Grapevine and when it hadn't
    arrived in 6 weeks I called them.  I learned:
    
     - that they were out of stock when I placed my order and they never 
       bothered to fill the order when they came in
    
     - the guy told me it "their" manual rather than a Commodore
       publication.  Not knowing anything about it, I declined to
       re-order.
    
     SAMS Photofact publishes a service manual for the A500 but to my 
     knowledge, they still don't have anything for the A2000.
    
    Frank
    

    
    
    Frank,
    
    I called the Grapevine Group and the guy told me he "had" the manuals
    in stock for $39.00.  You might want to call them yourself just to 
    confirm their in stock.  If I had the dealings you did with them I
    would definitly express my disatifaction with them.  I hope this won't
    be a repeat of your experience.
    
    The number is 1-800-292-7445
    
    Address .... The Grapevine Group, Inc.
                     3 Chestnut St.
                    Suffern, NY 10901
    
    ~Ray

Three years ago I ordered the technical specs for the 500/A2000/B2000
from Commodore.  Although it wasn't a repair manual, it did have
schematics, the spec for expansion devices, and lots of other
neat stuff.

Following the form feed is the letter I sent them.  And, just in
case anyone cares, I've moved since I wrote the letter.




                                         Randall Meyers
                                         46 Farwell Road
                                         Tyngsboro, MA 01879

                                         February 15, 1988


Lauren Brown
Software Administration
Commodore Business Machines
1200 Wilson Drive
West Chester, PA  19380


Dear Ms. Brown:

I wish to order the following Amiga-related items from your
office:

Item                                    Price
------------------------------------    ------
A500/A2000 Tech Ref Manual              $40.00
                                        ------
TOTAL                                   $40.00

I have enclosed a check for $40.00 made out to "Commodore
Business Machines."

Thank you,




Randall Meyers

    re .6
    
    Ray,
    
    I can't really get to worked up over it.  I just chalk it up to an
    oversight on their part.  I really have no complaint, they didn't
    charge me for it and they were polite when I talked with them. 
    
    I ordered the manual the same day I ordered my 1 meg Agnus chip.  The
    chip was here 2 days after I ordered it and they warranty their
    semiconductors.  Cant' beat that. Since they now have manuals in stock,
    maybe I go for a retry.
    
    I found it interresting that the Grapevine would warranty their chips. 
    I had gone to the Memory location intending to buy the Agnus but they
    wanted $25  more for the chip and told me it I couldn't return it if it
    didn't work, and that I really ought to have it professionally
    installed there for another $40.  Right!  Being a fairly regular
    customer who has spent considerable bucks at that place, I admit that
    their (you buy it - you own it) attitude ticked me off.
    
    Frank
    

    Frank,
    	I am really surprised that someone would offer a warranty on a
    chip. Given the number of truely innocuous things that can totally wipe
    a chip out, such a warranty would seem an invitation to disaster. OK,
    $40 seems a bit steep for inserting a chip. Still, it can be cheaper
    than the results of an insufficient ground.

    $40.00 bucks is steep for me!  Putting a chip on any board is no big
    deal, it's either inserted in a socket or soldered on.  The only thing
    you have to be aware of is chip orientation and have some soldering 
    skills. (And of course being grounded when handling the device.)  The
    warrenty is a suprise, but they would get my business for it.
    
    

Re past few:

Well, as a software jock with relatively little silicon experience, I clearly
recall my apprehension when I populated my own expansion RAM. As they say, lack
of knowledge breeds fear. I'd *heard* all the horror stories about microvoltage
from static electricity blowing chips, and I ain't got a static strap to my
name! So, I touched everything metal I could, made sure I didn't move my feet,
and went for it- like you say, no big deal. Now, if it were *soldered,* they'd
get my money. I did a few projects when I was a kid, but I could probably fry
every heat-sensitive component on a board while congratulating myself on a
great job!

All that said, I think the whole chip set is socketed, not soldered, right?

Cheers,
	Bob

    Re: replacing chips.
    
    Well, I'm a hardware engineer and built both Heathkits in high school
    and my first computer (an H-89) from a kit.  Come to think of it,
    anyone want to take an H-89 plus software off my hands?  :-)
    
    Yes, you _can_ zap MOS chips with random static electricity.  These
    include all memory chips and probably any custom chip you will run
    into, including Fat Agnus.  Anyone who gets a chance to go to a Digital
    assembly plant should look at the extensive static protection methods
    used there.
    
    But, and there is a but, a few simple precautions greatly reduce the
    possibility of blowing a chip.  The first is to always keep chips in
    anti-static containers - "tubes" marked as anti-static, anti-static
    bags, or on blocks of black or pink anti-static foam.  Second, when
    working on a board, try to keep it on an anti-static surface - a piece
    of metal or one of those shiny grey anti-static bags that boards come
    in.  Third, don't work around static-generating things - rugs, plastic
    surfaces, rubber-soled shoes.  High humidity helps; there's more static
    in winter (dry inside air) than summer.  Finally, grab the board by its
    edge connector or large copper area before starting work, and touch all
    the chips (or carriers) and soldering iron tip there before starting.
    
    I would also say to the hardware-averse that installing socketed DIP or
    ZIP memory chips is easy!  Pulling socketed chips narrower than your
    little finger is also easy - pry underneath the ends and take it slow
    and gentle.  Pulling big chips like the 68000 microprocessor gets 
    tricky.  Pulling sqare Pin Grid Array chips, with lots of pins
    underneath, is something you do at much higher risk.  You can only
    insert a screwdriver blade or tool a little bit under the edge, and so
    can break ceramic packages or bend lots of pins.
    
    The dealer probably has special chip pulling tools which grab square
    chips or big chips evenly on all sides and pull straight up.  You could
    get them, too, but you'll easily spend the dealer's $40 installation
    charge on one or two tools.
    
    Soldering is an art easily learned, but I don't recommend starting out
    on any piece of electronic equipment you value.  Desoldering one or two
    chips using a "solder sucker" is no harder.
    
    These issues could get very interesting when large numbers of people
    get too impatient and want to install the chipset sold with 
    AmigaDOS 2.0 themselves. :-)
    
    Wes

    Re -  last few
    
    I agree with Wes.  If you don't understand the precautions and are not
    comefortable with doing the hardware mods, it's best to have it done. 
    My frustration is probably an ego thing.  I feel orders of magnitude
    more capable of making the updates than some of the hackers that want
    $40 to do it.   It's one thing to respect the fragility of the hardware
    but I dont' see reason to be intimidated by it.  Many folks would be
    amazed at the way your pet TV's, audio, and video equipment is treated
    when you put it in the hands of the "repair professionals".  
    
    As Wes points out, getting those PGAs and 68000s in and out can be
    a VERY interresting experience and, you can't help but wonder "what
    happens when the socket cracks, or if the Xacto knife slips and a few
    extra etches get cut"?  It's all just part of the fun of owning high
    tech stuff.  
    
    Frank
    

    Re: .9

>    	I am really surprised that someone would offer a warranty on a
>    chip. 

    Dave,

    A recent experience with a 1Mx8 simm that went bad (possibly due to
    static but appears now to have been a manufacturing defect) and which 
    occurred outside of the mail order house's 30 day warranty forced me 
    to purchase a replacement. First thing I looked for besides lower price
    was a better warranty. Some chip merchants are offering lifetime 
    warranties on simms. I was able to find a bunch of them which offered
    both lower prices and lifetime warranties from a note listed in the 
    Mac conference (99, I think). So, it's not uncommon to find warranties 
    on chips.

    -Dom

    Re: -.1

    Sorry for the incorrect note pointer, updated list of memory dealers 
    and prices can be found in 34.100 in routes::macintosh.
    Now back to your regularly scheduled note.
    
    

    	OK, I yield !  Give up, even !  Knowing what precautions to take,
    and taking them, goes a LONG way toward avoiding an accident. I should
    know, I've been sweating out my precautions for several years now
    without ever blowing a chip. That I know of. But the cats HATE being
    locked in the cellar while I'm conducting "brain surgery" on my anti-
    static mat.
    	About that 30-day warranty, if it works for 30 days then it's
    likely to work for at least as many months - baring an accident. But
    then, sometimes it takes more than 30 days to get "it" installed then
    trace the problem back to "it".

    One thing I've found was useful for learning hardware - go to the
    computer flea markets, and gradually pick up enough tools & extra
    parts so that you can do swapping to figure out what the real
    problem is.  It's frustrating to put it all together and have no
    way to isolate where the problem is.  
    
    I've found that if you have all the right hardware stuff to debug it, 
    then the problem will turn out to be in the software.  It's some sort
    of variant of Murphy's Law.  Same goes for hunting the problem down from 
    the software side - you just "know" the hardware is going to turn out to 
    be flaky.  But will you find the real problem within the warranty
    period?
    
    I'm still at the globs of solder stage - I know enough of the theory to
    do the soldering right, but haven't had enough practice to doing it
    that I'd want to risk killing something expensive.
    
    Dave