Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    Could you describe your application in greater detail?  I'd like to
    offer advice, but I don't know what you mean my "take cuts of the data
    based on the actual data".
        John Sauter

    
    OK... what I meant in .0 was:   
    
    (BTW I ain't a database expert by any stretch of the imagination) 
    
    What I've got is a number of vendors who produce particular products,
    each with their own characteristics (ie.PC's). The way that information
    is stored at present is under general classifications such as: Company,
    Product, Cost, Speed, Storage etc... This kind of arrangement is not
    really any use to me if I want to take a look at how many ICL, Dell,
    IBM and Amstrad PCs have a 40Mb disk and are sold for less than $2000 !
    The requirement to do this is quite simplistic at present but could
    grow to be quite extensive with a lot of data being stored; perhaps
    something like 100 vendors with an average of 5 products each and with
    each of those products having around 30 attributes.
    
    Does this give you an idea of what I need ?
    
    Tom.
    

    re: .2
    
    I haven't used very many data base products, so there may be a better
    one for your purposes, but I believe Superbase Professional will do
    everything you are asking for.  You would enter the data as 500
    records, each with a field for the vendor (company), product, cost,
    speed, storage, etc: 32 fields per record.  This is well within the
    capacity of Superbase Professional: I keep a year's worth of checkbook
    data on it, and I'm not pushing it.
    
    It has a rather primitive form design feature that will let you enter
    your data into the data base interactively.
    
    When you are viewing data you can specify a filter, so you can
    eliminate, for example, vendors other than ICL, Dell, IBM and Amstrad,
    cost less than $2000 and storage greater than or equal to 40MB.
    The report writer also uses filters, if you want a formal report.
        John Sauter

Micro Fiche Filer+ can do what you're asking it to do. However, it's a consumer
database, not a commercial one. This means it costs less than the professional
versions, and has the following caveats:

1) It keeps everything in memory. This makes it fast once it's loaded, but
slow to load. Also means you have to have enough memory to keep the database
in. 4 meg holds the contents for the entire fish collections quite nicely.

2) It's really a list manager, not a database manager. On the other hand,
that's true of all the pc-based "database managers" I've looked at (which means
almost none for the Amiga).

3) The report generating system isn't incredibly powerfull.

4) The queery system is restricted to the "fiche" interface they give you.

Note that the last three can be worked around via the Rexx interface. Of course,
I wouldn't purchase any dbm without a Rexx interface; the synergy it adds to
the system is just to powerfull to ignore. For example, MFF+ and a text editor
with a Rexx interface is enough to build a mailmerge. Uploading all selected
entries through a Rexx-supporting terminal emulator is another easy application.
Downloading directly into the database from known-format files (i.e. - I
could write a VLT script to start MFF+ on the Fish database running a macro
that would contact the VLT macro so I could lock the database, download the
Contents files one at a time, and have MFF+ start parsing and loading each
contents file after it was downloaded, while the VLT was still downloading
the rest). A good Rexx interface can also turn a list manager into a database
manager.

Please post a review of whatever you do purchase.

	<mike

    On SuperBase Professional:
    
    .3 is basically right, however I wish to add some info.
    
    I have my part-time business records set up via SuperBase including a
    relational/transactional inventory system.  I would not consider the
    report form generator to be "primitive" but actually rather powerful. 
    The problem is that the documentation provided with SuperBase will be
    of almost no help in setting a complex database up.  For someone who
    has no experience with databases, you will be fighting an uphill
    battle.  Fortunately, there is a tech support line you can call, but be
    prepared to spend a small fortune in phone bills.  SuperBase
    Professional is quite expensive ($179+ I believe at discount houses).
    Superbase Personal is much less expensive but much less capable.
    
    Although this is of no use to you, the best personal database I have
    ever used was AppleWorks (for the Apple II). You could search through
    any catagory for anything with one simple keyboard command.  I have yet
    to see a database for the Amiga as simple with as many features.  I
    feel that most programmers spend far too much time designing graphic
    and user interfaces for their programs and too little time making the
    programs actually user friendly.
    
    Ken
    

    re: .5
    
    Perhaps I feel that the form generator is "primitive" because I am
    currently working on DECforms, a much better forms interface!
    
    I have also used AppleWorks, but even on a 128K Apple II it wouldn't
    hold enough data to satisfy me.  SuperBase keeps its database on disk
    by default, though you can tell it to use a RAM disk as temporary
    storage.  Because I have a hard disk I have never felt the need for
    the RAM feature.
    
    I agree about the constant battle.  It took me a long time to get
    some simple reports working, because the information about report
    printing isn't very well presented.
        John Sauter

    re .6:
    Hmmm...DECforms for the Amiga?  Is there an untapped market there?
    
    ;^)
    dennis

    I've been pondering buying Superbase Prof. for some time. The thing
    that has put me off is the dongle that is required. Seems strange
    for 'professional' software...
    
    Colin
    

    Thank you for the inputs so far gents.....  very interesting.
    
    I would like to investigate SuperBase Professional a bit, so it may be
    the one I go for. I have a contact here in the UK who could get it at
    what I hope is a reasonable price, we'll see. If things work out, I'll
    post a few comments..... 
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Tom.
    

I have been using pro-dataretrive from (argh!) abacus. I am not sure
why I selected it, perhaps an impulse.

I use it for my business records (personal photo business) and it
performs fine. The programming language is a bit funky (much like
basic in a most primitive form plus bunches of "special" statements
for the actual database stuff.

When I bought it there were plenty of bugs, mostly in the programming
interface and editor. Last January I got an update that fixed all the
programming language bugs I found, but the editor was still pretty
poor. I should be specific here, I am speaking about the program text
ediitor. I prefer to use an external editor anyway so no big deal.

Since the update in January I have located one bug - when importing
ascii text files the text string is not recognized as such when a
vertical bar is the first character of the string and a comparison of
the string is being made with a comparison string longer than the
string read in. For most applications I know of, not a problem.

Abacus has a lousy reputation for quality, but this product seems to
be OK. It is worth a look if you need individual records or fields up
to 64K bytes in length.

	-SES

    re: .8---After you purchase the dongle-protected version you can get
    an unprotected "personalized" version by mail.  In this version the
    startup screen contains your name and address.
        John Sauter

    re: .11
    
    Name and address in the startup screen?  Seems strange for
    "professional" software.
    
    Wes

    
    Not at all... Claris applications (Apple's software arm) provides
    personalized copies of their high-end packages.
    
    Ed.

    re: .12, .13
    
    I suspect it's the alternative to copy protection.  If I give away my
    copy of the package and it's eventually posted to a bulletin board,
    the owners know who to go after.  I suspect the information is also
    included in a less visible place, or places.
        John Sauter

    I got the idea, for a music thing I wrote, of putting my name and
    address in hexadecimal in a program array.  that way, it shows up in
    the executable ascii dump; but it had to be referenced so that it
    wasn't optimized away.
    Tom

    Is there a public domain data base, say on Fish or some other
    directory.

Re: .15

> ... putting my name and address in hexadecimal in a program array.
> ... but it had to be referenced so that it wasn't optimized away.

Another way of keeping it from being optimized away would be to 
make the array an external variable.  The compiler would no longer
trust itself to optimize the variable away.  E.g.,

	extern char me[] = "My name, my address.";

At one time, the FORTRAN compiler I worked on had a copyright notice
in ASCII embedded in it.  The lawyers required that if you typed
out the executable that the copyright show up within the first
screenful of printable text.

Luckily, the copyright laws now recognize binaries as protected by the
copyright on the source files used to generate them.

>	extern char me[] = "My name, my address.";

I didn't know you were allowed to initialize extern variables!

john

    In .14, John Sauter says...
    
    >If I give away my copy of the package and it's eventually posted to a
    >bulletin board, the owners know who to go after.
    
    OK, rathole alert!  Based on John's other postings on the subject of
    software property rights, this has to be a deliberate provocation.
    
    In "No Deposit, No Returns," in the March/April issue of _Midnight
    Engineering_, Jeff Duntemann puts the case against copy protection more
    succinctly than I could.  He says, in part...
    
    "Software is funny stuff.  You can sell it and still keep it.  You can
    give software away and still keep it, too -- a conundrum new in human
    history, and one that has driven more entrepreneurs off the deep end
    than any other single factor except maybe cocaine or bad Chinese food.
    
    "I bought a lot of software in times past, and I sold it for awhile
    too.  I've seen the problem from both sides, and if you're starting out
    in the software business, it would pay to calibrate your susceptibility
    to a very pernicious kind of paranoia: the creeping suspicion that
    everyone is out to steal your software.
    
    "Piracy Calibration Point #1: Almost none of the copies lost to piracy
    are lost sales.  If you spend hours fantasizing about schemes to
    capture and torture software pirates, you cannot succeed in this
    business and should instead open a car towing and impounding lot on the
    North Side of Chicago.
    
    "Piracy Calibration Point #2: Hell hath no fury like an honest customer
    treated like a software pirate.  Bad word-of-mouth will stay with you
    always, like a case of herpes.  It may not do you in -- but every time
    you become aware of it, the pain is excruciating.
    
    "Piracy Calibration Point #3: Assuming honesty is easier (and less
    dangerous) than suspecting piracy."
    
    Now, the focus of this article is whether and when to give refunds to
    buyers of unprotected software.  But IMO, the argument applies to copy
    protection in general.  And if piracy were such a problem, why aren't
    NewTek (Digi-Paint), Word Perfect, Manx, Lattice or, for that matter,
    Borland, worried?
    
    My 5 cents.
    
    Wes

Re: .18

You can initialize variable of any storage class.

I did accidentally use ANSI C syntax that will not work in the current
version of VAX C.

According to ANSI C,

	extern int foo = 1;

is a definition of foo that also initializes it.

Many older versions of C would not allow you to initialize an
extern variable if it contained the keyword extern.  Thus,

	extern int foo = 1;

was not allowed because of the presence of the extern keyword.
The idea was that you used the extern keyword to indicate that
you were making a reference to a external variable defined
somewhere else.  A reference, as opposed to a definition, could
not be initialized.

Under the above compilers, you made the definition of an external variable
by declaring it outside of any function without any storage class.
Thus,

	int foo = 1;

appearing outside of any function would define and initialize the
external variable foo.

    RE .19
    	I just recieved ver 4.0 of a product. The vendor skipped 3.0
    because a modified version was posted to a pirate board. Anyone
    who can say piracy does not cost the developers profits,and believes
    this could probably justify just about anything they chose to do.
    	I think the name in the product is a good idea an have seen
    it in Vidgen. Piriacy not only cost in loss of sales,but in cases
    where it has been modified and this modification has not been
    documented it could cost a developer HIS reputation.Put so it is
    easy to understand Software Pirates are simply parasites,and should
    be treated as such.
    	Now I am also looking for a DATABASE an have looked at MMF,and
    superbase (lower level). I have a hard time with Spreadsheet,database
    programs,and even harder time with the ones that conbine both. I
    own Advantage from gold disk,and it has some DataBase functions
    but I believe these are limited in what they can hold. I'll have
    to take time to look at this before purchasing another piece of
    software that may be redundent in nature. Anyone have any info on
    what the "database" functions of a spreadsheet apply to ?
    								bill

    re: .19---I did not intend that statement as a provocation, but as
    speculation on the intent of the owners.  What have I said elsewhere
    that caused you to think that I intended provocation?
        John Sauter

re .20:

So what happens if, in modula a, you put:

int x = 1;

and in module b you put:

extern int x = 2;

and in module c (etc etc)

??

john

Re: .23

In ANSI C, you must have exactly one definition of any external object.
Since only definitions can be initialized, you can have at most
one initialization.  What happens if you violate this rule is
implementation specific.

    Nice to see a note go off in three directions at once...
    
    
    1) Dongle. Not sure if this offer applies in Europe. Ask before
    you buy.
    
    2) name and address imbedded seems like a reasonable compromise
    to me, but why display it on a gaudy start-up screen taht requires
    another key push to remove it?
    
    3) databases on fish. I use Hyperbase (FF#13?, 137 I think).
    It works well for simple applications, text only of course. 
                                              
    4) This C business. Beyond me.
    
    
    Colin
    

    re: .25, item 2
    
    It doesn't require another keypress to remove the purchaser's name and
    address.  The screen is displayed during initialization, and is removed
    automatically when initialization is complete.
        John Sauter

	To get back to the subject of database programmes, does anyone know of
one besides MFF+ that support an AREXX interface?

Mark

    Gee, it's interesting how a topic can take such a left hand turn
    like this one has.
    
    I'm still hoping to find a PD database program that offers more 
    than the 3 on the Fish disks (hyperbase, fileit, bBaseII), 
    otherwise I may be forced to pay big bucks for what I thought
    would be an interesting, challenging and perhaps profitable
    experience for an Amiga developer (yes, I do compensate authors
    of PD software)
    
    -Peter
    

Peter,
	I am in a similar position.

(My Little Athletics CTR wants a system for scoring/records etc They are thinking
of 286/386 architecture - I am thinking of something else. There is a PC S/W
package available for $$$ for little athletics - it runs on blue machines but...
it has bugs
It is missing facilities..)

What I am looking into is:

SQLDB.LZH 
Lattice C programs.
REXX to talk C -> SQLDB

I have just ordered REXX from CSN and am now in the waiting loop.

Basically using the db will allow an easier implimentation for this particular
application.

The above is theory.

any comments re viability?

Stan

	I just ran across a data base program that, while NOT public domain
    in the strict sense, is very cheap ($24.95) and may be built into any
    application in binary form for no charge.  It has a couple draw backs.

	First, the program is in the form of source code printed in a book.
    The source code is available on a 5 1/4" MS DOS formatted disket at extra 
    cost.  Second, I don't know if it works on the AMIGA since I haven't typed 
    it in yet.

    I would guess that there are a lot of prospective customers out there
    who could use a database program containing a subset of the full-blown
    commercial ones out there.  I would be content with one which didn't
    offer relational features (that's got to be pretty expensive),
    or a fancy query language.  Basically, just a reasonable number of
    fields (10-20 ??) and the ability to create views of the database
    and mailing list and/or the ability to export to a program that
    can do these things.
    
    -Peter
    

It's not clear, but it looks like Peter would like a list manager.
If that's the case, I agree. List managers are sufficient for lots of
simple applications, and many not-so-simple ones.

The major diffence between a list manager and a database manager is that
a list manager deals with one table at a time, and doesn't directly
support operations that work on multiple lists.

I've been using MFF+ for just that for quite a while now. I believe it
exceeds all the limits you mentioned (assuming it has any), and it has
the abilities you asked for. In addition, the ARexx support is sufficient
to allow multi-table operations with two copies of MFF+. It also has an
interesting paradigm for viewing data, and very nice user interface for
almost everything it does.

MFF+ is about $100. MFF is around $60, but doesn't have the ARexx port,
and is noticably slower. There is a demo version of MFF on Fish disks #89
(or is that #88 - one of them isn't available).

There are two major drawbacks to MFF. The first is technical - it wants
to keep the table in memory. This makes doing things like a Fish disk table
difficult (works on my 10 meg 3000, but creates problems with 6 meg). Second,
the author has stopped development. He still supports it, but there isn't
planning an upgrade. If you're looking for an Amiga product to market, he's
willing to sell it (and i'm willing to do support work on it).

	<mike

    
    
    	I have used two different databases. First is SDB. This is a PD
    relational database. The source can be found on the DECUS library.
    
    	I also purchased a copy of CBtree. It is very cheap ( $30 ), and
    comes as source code and a Amiga library. It also allows you to
    include the library with royalties.
    
    		Steve P.
    

Re: -2
Yes, a list manager is what I am looking for.  The 3 "database" programs
on the Fish disks are actually just list processors.

Do MFF, CBtree or SDB have the ability to export/import to/from ASCII files?
This is useful for a) doing the initial load of a new database from another
database, b) allowing the exchange of the data (list) to other applications
(e.g., I use 'awk' to massage the data into a tabular display for printing,
and to convert to a format for a mailing list printing program on the MAC).

I like the price of CBtree compared to MFF.  I'll have a look at the MFF Demo.

-Peter

MFF has the import/export capability.

Better yet, with MFF+ you can import/export data via Rexx. I use Rexx scripts
to parse the fish disks "Contents" files and add them to the on-line index.

	<mike