Conference 7.286::sports_91

Dean likes the Oilers chances.

TTom

       Well, the many 'Houston Oilers, AFC Central Champs' notes never panned
    out. So why not shoot a little higher eh? Just makes for a longer
    fall. 
                                       Denny

    Hmm, wonder if the Oilers were 0-3 if we'd have an Oilers note.  So -
    when is the timetable for the Oilers to explode?
    
    JD

  >  when is the timetable for the Oilers to explode?
    
    Usually, shortly after Doc creates the Oilers note..  Let down this 
    week in Foxborough?  Could happen....
    
    /Jeff

 While it may be a bit premature to discuss the Oilers in the Superbowl,
they are (quite arguably) the best team in the AFC at this point. The
only real contender for that title is the Bills whose defense sans Bruce
Smith is decidedly mediocre. Furthermore Warren Moon is in my estimation
the best QB in the league bar none and he's proven it by manhandling three
very good teams. If Moon stays healthy the Oilers are capable of beating
anyone and everyone.

To answer some of the previous responders:

JD, give the Doc some credit. Do you think he'd be dumb enough to enter an
Oilers in the Superbowl note if they were 0-3?  Never mind I withdraw the
question. Just kidding, Doc.

Frank, you want boring? Reading that "MR T B Gone" note is about as enter-
taining as going down to the highway and cheering for the out of state trucks.
Ditto that "Helmet Logos" note until the name was changed. That was turning 
into a real get-a-life convention.
    

    These guys are just jealous because I got topic 200 !
    
    But I caint hardly wait for JD to do some Run And Shoot bashing ... I
    wonder if the Midgets 1-2 record has something to do with his silence ?
    
    Consider it.
    
    Anyhow, I hope the Oilers win a Super Bowl and soon, because Bud Adams
    will screw up this team inside of three years. 
    
    If the Oilers take it all, they HAVE to do it this year or nexted one.
    Kiam has nothing on Adams for stupid power moves ....
    
    Doc

    Doc -
    
    I couuld be as shallow as you and say something like "Oy how many super
    bowl rings does the Oilers have?" - but that would be stooping to your
    low level.
    
    I'll still bash the Run n' Shoot.  What silence?  The season is 3 weeks
    old.  I note about the Giants in the GIANTS conference - where Saw can
    tell ya I've been highly critical.
    
    The run n' shoot puts up great offensive numbers Doc - but it ain't won
    anything yet, has it?  It's designed to inflate QB stats (see Carlson,
    Cody, last year ) and cover up the ability to play real manly football
    figures you'd like wimpy football, Doc.
    
    The biggest gain the Oilers have made this year is the lack of
    penalties.  They have few.  However, Warren and his band will do the
    old choko down the stretch.  And nexted year you'll have another of
    these inane topics.
    
    I can' resist:
    
    So Doc, WHEN is the LAST time the OILERS were in the SUPER BOWL,
    anyway?
    
    JD

And so what if the Giants fans have been quiet.

We won the bowl last year, lost two key coaches, and the team is
trying to find some motivation and balance.  

You were maybe expecting something a la Hal????

Sorry.  I'm watching my team (which is still a damn good one) and
hoping they turn this thing around....

Unlike JD, I'll resist (*someone* has too),....


'Saw

	Doc was supposed to meet up with us Sunday before the Houston game 
but now he cain't make it.  He said something about him being a star 
quarterback in some sissy touch league that had a game Sunday but I know he 
isn't going because he's afraid the "Super Bowl bound" Oilers are going 
down to the Pats.  Shame on you Doc!

				/Don

                                                              
    AFC Central is definetly Houston's to win this year.  That doesn't mean
    they will, but look at the competition:
    
    Bengals - eliminated early.. should be 4 behind after this week.
    Browns - Will meet first quality team this weekend, I'd love to see
    	     them catch the oilers, but how much can anyone expect from
    	     a team that went in the tank the previous year.  
    Steelers - Might be able to make some noise, but early indications are 
    	       that they won't.  The defense that made them so tough last 
               year has been less than impressive, and how many games will
    	       it take for Bubby to get the offense in gear.  
    
    The only way Houston can be caught is if Moon gets hurt, they are
    simply too deep at other positions for injuries to make a difference.
    Now, I'm not saying the Oilers will go to the Bowl, I highly doubt 
    that they will make it past their first playoff game, but in the AFC 
    Central this year they better take it.  If they choke on it this year
    we're all gonna have some real good laughs in here. 
    
    /Jeff

    
    I agree Slasher Jeff ... :-)
    
    The Oilers have no excuses for not winning this year. The D-line is the
    deepest in the conference now, their wideouts are so good, that they
    could trade a Shawn Jefferson to San Diego to land Lee Williams.
    Running back is an area of concern, as Pinkett is not big enough to
    pick up blitzing LB's on a regular basis, and White is better suited to
    an I-based or conventional offense. But Pinkett HAS rushed for alomst
    300 yards this season.
    
    The front office is the Oilers' biggest albatross, yet I believe that
    they can't hold the team back this year. 
    
    re JD,
    
    If you we a little less loud about you lack of knowledge about the game
    JD, you'd have no problem with me. But when you try to subsitiute macho
    for expertise ..... heh heh heh ....
    
    Anyhow, I was busting your chops, same as you do with me. Ya know JD,
    your fuse has gotten shorter since you went West and got married on us.
    
    RE-laaaaaaaaaxxxx will ya ? :-)
    
    Back to football :
    
    The only team I can see giving the Oilers problems is Buffalo. For some
    reason Miami also comes to mind, probably because Don Shula is not
    going to be out-prepared in a playoff game.
    
    Doc

    /Don, he prob'ly won't show up for his 'touch' game either.
                                               Denny

    At one point the forward pass was considered a gimick or trickery
    and the drop kick was a fundamental part of the game. We've come 
    a long way. Have we? The run n' shoot can now be dismissed because
    it doesn't fit in with what has proven to work in the past? 
    I have to admit, some doubts still linger in this noter's mind.
    It was my opinion that the run and shoot offense was a poorly 
    disguised term for mostly 'shoot' and very little ability to 'run'.
    The Oilers are showing that untill proven otherwise, the rest of
    the league would do well to pay close attention to what's happening
    there. 
    
    BoB
    

�    It was my opinion that the run and shoot offense was a poorly 
�    disguised term for mostly 'shoot' and very little ability to 'run'.
    
    Tell that to Barry Sanders of the Lions.

    Well, my reply was destroyed when the system went down.
    
    On the Run n Shoot - gimmick offenses are great.  But throughout
    history, defense wins champeenships.  you cain look it up.  The best
    team of the 80's - the Niners, mixed a great offense with a fantastic
    defense (even though it was lost in the hype of Montana, Rice, etc..).
    
    Like I've said, the R & S hasn't won anything yet.  Warren Moon hasn't
    won anything in this country.  THe Oilers haven't won anything.  The
    Oilers play in the weakest conference in the NFL.  they will most
    likely make the playoffs.  THey will lose in the playoffs - that's a
    certain.  
    
    And the AFC better hope a girly-mon team from the NFC makes the bowl,
    or real manly football will win again - like lasted year.  
    
    We'll see if Doc remains in here for the whole season, or if he'll
    disappear like usual.
    
    JD

Run 'n Shoot dribbles, Patriots win on a GREAT play, 24-20.....

    This outta be a trip this week...

    ...so, how'd the TWO Houston juggernauts do this weekend. I hear David
    Klingler's a lock for the Heisman!! And War 'n Moon is a certain MVP!
    
                                 Denny

    Hey, Houston's still a great team.  Mind you not the greatest team
    in the AFC this year but one of the top 3.  The PATRIOTS were out of
    mind (and body), Boy do I wish I had gone to the game now (Denny).
    
    What a hard game to imagine, have to back the home Team (pats) but
    really like the oilers, but it worked out ok because those roaring
    tigers lost again.....0-4 start....
    
    Ill bet anybody that Houston will not lose next week and cinncy will
    not win...:-)
    
    Now a question the pats are tied with Miami at 2-2 but the pats are
    1-0 in the division and miami is 1-1 doesnt this put NE in the 2ns
    slot in the AFC east ????
    								Mike

    We did a reasonably good job of shutting down Houston yesterday.  The
    final play by McMurtry was great.
    
    My impression of the run and shoot is that can be amazingly effective
    and Moon is a terrific QB.  I'm surprised that they didn't run either a
    no huddle or a shotgun all day.  The real problem with the run and
    shoot isn't in its execution but in its perception - it's new, it's
    different, it doesn't conform to football's macho stereotype of "I'll
    kick your butt and you kick mine, and the last one standing wins" and
    it's caught in a Catch-22 - it won't be accepted until someone wins
    with it, and the odds of someone winning with it are low until it gets
    more accepted.  The odds of any one of 10 teams winning a title are
    much greater than the odds of any of 3 teams winning with it.
    
    The only thing I don't like about it is that the games take too long.
    
    John

The first thing I thought of after hearing the Pats score the TD on
the radio was this note. 

Dr. Midnight, take cover!  This could get ugly.

A Giants fan whose relieved by a victory over the Browns,
Mike

Mike --

I watched the Giants game, and then flipped over to watch the Pats.

Glad the Jints won, but the end of that Pats game was SO exciting.
I was rooting so hard for the Pats.

'Saw

    
    First it was the Dinz KOD now it's the Hausrath-Hex..   I get in here 
    friday and talk up how great the Oilers are and what do they do - go
    out and seriously stink up the joint.   
    
    /Jeff

Saw,

I was at a friend's house with the Sox on the TV, Giants game in the
Picture in Picture, and the Pats on the radio.  A multimedia extravaganza.

Those Picture in Picture TV's are great.  I wish I could afford one of 
those suckers.

Back to the Oiler bashing...
Mike

 Hey, Doc, do me a favor, willya ???
 
 Please start a "The Official 1991 Washington Redskins Super Bowl
 Note".
 
 Thanks, big guy, I owe ya.
 
 Bob Hunt

    	To be honest the Oilers almost won a game when their heads and
    hearts weren't really in it.  They're still the second best team
    in the AFC behind Buffalo, right Doc?  Speaking of the Doc I was
    lucky enough to run into him in the cafeteria this morning.  He
    took it pretty well, but I still had to rub it in just to keep in
    character.  The Pats aren't an automatic win anymore and teams better
    be prepared when they play them.
    
    				/Don

    
    
    I hear the Oilers are suing Doc Midnight for malpractice.
    
    Absolutely priceless.  Like a script.  Almost as good as Dean's
    exit from the Final Four.
    
    JD

    Looks like Nazz has been relieved of his KOD responsibilities! ;-)

    This was the Weekend From Hell ....
    
    UH got bombed, my flag team got bombed, and then the Oilers ....
    
    Oh boy ..... :-(
    
    Funny thing was after my game, I turned on the radio and it was 17-6
    Pats, I worte Houston off. Cursed for a while, then went a gas station
    to make some calls. Finally go over to a pub, and lo and behold, they
    have a big screem and dish (I forget the game, but it is on Montvale St
    in Woburn right off of 93) - and Mc Murtry had just scored the winner.
    
    Ouch. I'm glad I didn't stick around for the comeback-that-wasn't ...
    
    No question, the Pats played a great game. Collier blew smoke all week
    about his defense being better against the run, and then put together a
    great game plan. More importantly, the Pats came up with some offense
    (after all, their D has played more than well enough to win the last
    few weeks) and the Oilers did not play well. Moon threw three picks,
    one inside the Pats 10.
    
    And despite the bruises from the KC game, this was still a game that
    Houston let get away. 
    
    Good thing the boys have a week off to heal.
    
    It will also be interesting to see if Lorenzo White reclaims his
    starting job from Pinkett. I noticed they split the carries (with equal
    ineffectiveness) ....
    
    re Bob Hunt,
    
    Sorry dude, I like the Skins. Have for a long time. While I like the
    Iggles, I think the NFC title will boil down to the Skins or the
    Niners.
    
    re JD
    
    As usual, you miss the point. I never said that defense doesn't win
    titles. BTW, the Oilers in fact *have* upscaled the defense over the
    alst two years to the point where it is championship-caliber (not like
    the Giants or vintage Bears, but good enough). Back to the O. The R&S *is* 
    a viable offense, and you might be the last man on the planet to admit it. 
    No problem. 
    
    Doc

    Oh, and one other thing I forgot to add from this morning.  Just
    because a team has what is perceived to be a wimp offense, it doesn't
    necessarily correlate to having a weak defense as well.  Houston's
    defenders get after the ball and play aggressively and physically.
    
    John

 �   Sorry dude, I like the Skins. Have for a long time. While I like the
 �   Iggles, I think the NFC title will boil down to the Skins or the
 �   Niners.
 
 Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, Doc.   Oooh, that's just the
 little Peck On The Cheek Of Death that I was looking for.
 
 This one's wrapped up ... Eagles over the Skins nexted Monday night
 in RFK.    Doc endorsed him so all I gotta do is watch and smile.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Thank goodness - no more KOD for me!!!  I appreciate that Mike!
    
    NAZZ

    Run and shoot teams are 6-2 so far, right?
    

    6-2 so far and next week should be 7-2.  Houston has a Bye and Detroit
    has TB at Detroit.  Id like to see Detroit Keept Winning, have to love
    Barry Sanders.  Im a Running Back ran and I miss Walter Payton even
    though I never really liked the Bears.  My other favorite to watch use
    to be Eric Dickerson but lately he leaves much to be desired.  Time to
    watch some new,  Younger, More exciting Running backs.  The 2 I like
    watching now are Barry Sanders and Emitt Smith....Still think Dickerson
    will someday snap out of it and get back on track.  He will retire at
    either the #1 or #2 all Time Rushing Leader, thats for sure.
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

    As far as Eric Dickerson snappin out of it, thats tough when you
    have no offensive line.
    
                                                       Dan

And being a complete bung-hole doesn't help either.

TTom

    Oilers play the Donks in the House Of Pain, and are favored by 7.5
    They've had an extra week to heal from the Pats game, but who will
    start in the backfield ? White or Pinkett ? Lee Williams wil be out at
    least another 3 weeks with a broken arm, so Sean Jones is taking his
    place up front. 
    
    This means :
    
    E Jones
    T Childress
    T Smith
    E Fuller
     
    The other issue is whether or not the Oilers will be as effective
    running the ball has they were in the first two weeks of the season.
    Here's hoping ....
    
    Doc 

    The Oilers get back on track against Denver.  They looked impressive in
    this game.  The game was already over midway through the 2nd quarter
    when they ran the score up to 28-0.  The network switched over to the
    Miami game at halftime, so I didn't see the 2nd half.  Sounds like not
    much happened once the outcome was decided anyway.
    
    The Houston defense and special teams looked very impressive the 1st
    quarter, getting several turnovers.  It was hard judge the offense,
    since the game was already over before they got into the flow of the
    game.
    
    This game, combined with the earlier wins, made the loss to the Pats
    look like a case of mental letdown.  The team is playing good ball so
    far this season.  I hope a few more of the games get televised.
    
    Commander Scott
    
    P.S.  Run-and-Shoot teams are 9-2 this year and both leading their
    division.  This offense is starting to make a real case for itself.

    Not a pretty win against the Jets, but still a win.  The Oilers last
    drive did look impressive, lasted forever.  This offense can be a quick
    strike or legitimite ball possesion O as needed.
    
    If the Giants can beat the Steelers tonight, the Oilers are looking
    good for the play-offs.  2 games up in their division, 1 game up on the
    AFC West and having beaten the top 3 leaders in head-to-head.  They
    could get a bye in the 1st round.  Assuming the team doesn't totally
    collapse of course.
    
    Commander Scott

    
     After the way KC beat them like a rented mule, I wouldn't exactly
    call Buffalo out of reach. When they're clicking on all cylinders
    Buffalo is the best team in the AFC but they can defintely be had 
    when they're not clicking. The Jets have looked good even when losing
    and KC has shown that they have to be included in any AFC championship
    talk. Basically the AFC is wide open and this may be the AFC's best
    chance in almost ten years to win the Superbowl.

    Houston is looking good !!!  By know means are the Bill's outta 
    reach.  As for this being the best chance the AFC has to win an SB
    in 10 years I have to disagree....  The Fore-Skin's (Whom I can't stand)
    and the `Aints are looking like pretty tough NFC competition.
    
    Big Game (Who's Still In A Daze From Houstons Pounding Of The Donks)

�    Big Game (Who's Still In A Daze From Houstons Pounding Of The Donks)
    
    I believe it!!  I never thought I'd see Jack Hunter praising an
    opponent.  Nexted thing you know, he'll start complimenting the Raiders
    and Browns ;^}

    
     Sorry,  I have a bad cold today.....  It must be the medication
    thats bringing me down.....  I'm sure that I'll be ranting and raving
    after the Donks get The SH*T kicked outa them by K.C......  Boy they
    sure look tough !!!
    
    Big Game

    The Saints don't impress me offensively - they've always had the D, but
    Mora's offense will make him the Chuck Knox of the NFC (remember those
    teams in the mid-70's ?). The Skins will be real tough, and frankly, I
    expect the Niners to make a hell of a run real soon. Montana's injury
    could be the thing that finally mwakes the team up.
    
    In teh AFC, Buffalo's defense is a big uestion mark, and after watching
    KC demolish them, the jury is out. The Oilers also have a big OL, and
    the R&S means that you can't provide LB support in conventional
    manner. 
    
    I see a three team race right now in the AFC.
    
    (Dark Horse ? The Bungles. I mean it it. They have the talent to finish
    9-7. Of course, Wyche might have to get canned first ...)
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. Rice beats Baylor !!!!!!!!!!
    
    RICE OWLS ROOOOOOLLLE !

    When is Mike Munchack(sp?) expected back?  Is Dean Steinkuler all
    done in Houston? If so alot of teams would be interested in him.
    
    Mike
     

    Munchie is due back in a week or two. Dean has had 5 or 6 knee
    operations, and the Oilers would rather prolong his career by bringing
    him off the bench rather than starting him and having him play 80% of
    the offensive plays (esp. since at least 8 games are on turf). I don't
    think he's available. At 75%, he's still one of the best. With two good
    knees, he'd be mentioned with Yary, Upshaw, White et al ...
    
    doc

    Yesterday ESPN did a nice segment on the Oilers defense, they had alot
    of praise for Doug Smith. I was watching Smith yeaterday and had a
    great game and so did the whole defense.
    
    I thought Moon was off in the first half but was better in the second.
    The Dolphins could of won but for the fumble.
    
    But a win is a win no matter how you win.
    
    Mike
    

    re: -1
    
    Agreed. The Oiler defense had a pretty good day.  They were in Marino's
    face all day, and the secondary executed the tip drill to perfection.
    
    Form the offense's point of view, a sloppy game.  8 turnovers total.  3
    interceptions for each QB.  One quick whistle on a another possible
    fumble.  3-5 in favor of the Oilers.
    
    A win is a win.
    
    Wins against the Steelers and Browns should ice the division title. Or
    if the Oilers get a couple more games lead on both teams before then,
    even the division games won't be necessary.  After that, we start
    looking at playoff positioning.
    
    Commander Scott

    re "winning ugly", these were the type of games the Oilers would lose
    last year, especially on the road.
    
    re .53, "playoff positioning" could be crucial.  I'd frankly not give
    the Oilers much of a chance of knocking off the Bills in Buffalo in
    January, but if the AFC title game is in the House of Pain that's
    another story...
    
    
    py 

    I also was thinking what a difference a good coach makes. The Oilers
    in the past few years have had good talent, but dip sh*t Glanville was
    more interested in the image then the win.  
    
    Mike
    

    RE: 54
    
    At least a game in Buffalo would be on artificial turf.  The R&S seems
    to have more problems with bad footing than wind.
    
    Your right though, playoff games in Houston would be much preferrable.
    
    Commander Scott
    
    P.S. Since Houston and Detroit have implemented the R&S, have the two
    teams played each other?

    re -1
    
    I think I could be wrong but the Lions play a "modified" version of the
    R&S. They played in preseason and the Lions won.
    
    Mike
    

    The Lions no longer play a run and shoot.  Mouse Davis left.  And they
    realized they had a guy named Barry Sanders.  
    
    They even have a tight end..
    
    JD

    Not quite correct JD, the Lions use the R&S from 35-60% of the time.
    The use a TE in situations where they want to control the ball, and get
    Sanders around the corner, which is a little hard to do in the R&S. 
    
    Funny thing is, that the Oilers play pure R&S, and led the NFL in 1st
    downs and ToP. The difference is that 1) The Oilers have vastly
    superior WR's to the Lions, and 2) The Lions problems were more on
    defense than offense. This year the D is greatly improved. While they
    needed to modify the R&S for Sanders (and moreso for their lack of
    quality WR's), it was a red herring.
    
    re Miami game,
    
    A great win for Houston, the type of game they would have lost in the
    past. That's two wins in a row on the road, and you have to beleive
    that it will build confidence,a nd stop this "can't win on the road"
    nonsense.
    
    But you have to feel bad for SDammy Smith. 2nd week in a row that he's
    coughed up the ball in a goalline situation. I hear he was devastated
    after the game....still a great back, but he might want to use Epoxy in
    the future ...
    
    LAstly, Houston has something the Buffalo doesn't - a STRONG defense.
    Jack Pardee and Jim Eddy deserve all the credit for that ... Buffalo
    wasn't dominating WITH Bruce Smith, and they are really hurting w/o
    him. 
    
    How long can Thomas, Kelly, Reed, Lofton, et al continue to outscore
    the oppostion ?
    
    Doc

    The Bills remind me of the Dan Fouts era chargers.....  Score Score
    Score and a pretty weak "D"
    
    Big Game   ;^)

    Doc -
    
    I gots my information from the newspaper.  ANd various mags.  
    
    Also, the fact htat Houston has a good defense backs up my statements
    about the R & S.  You caint win without a good defense.  You can load
    up the offense with every gimmick in the book, but without the defense,
    you just gonna lose in the big games.
    
    But, we'll see, the tougher part of the schedule is coming up - and a
    few games most likely played in inclement weather, outdoors, and even
    on grass.
    
    JD

    O.K. yuz guys, I got a question, and promise you won't laugh.
    
    What is the Run & Shoot offense I've been hearing about that last few
    years?
    
    German Shephard
    

    Run & Shoot offense attempts to spread the defense by using 4 wide
    receivers, 1 running back and no tight end.  Its theory is that the WRs
    read the defense and run their patterns based on what the defense is
    allowing them to do.  It attempts to open up the running game by
    establishing the pass first.
    
    Critics of the Run & Shoot fall into two categories - 1.  Those who
    feel the Run & Shoot cannot kill the clock, which it can't and 2. 
    Neanderthals who feel that football ain't football unless two teams are
    kicking the crap out of each other.  :-)  Seriously, though, it's
    football in a different form and with a different emphasis than
    traditional offensive football and it's going to take a lot of time for
    it to prove whether or not it can work over the long term and whether
    or not it will be accepted (kind of like midget quarterbacks).  I'm as
    much of a football traditionalist as anybody but I approach it with an
    open mind and actually, kind of enjoy watching it.
    
    There's nothing I like better than a good running attack slogging its
    way down the field, though.
    
    John

    
    By the end of the year (read: the playoffs), the Bills will be stomping
    all over the Oilers, if Houston gets that far.  The Bills have played 
    strong defense in the past and will do so again.  (I don't have
    any allegiance to either team; this is just my opinion and prediction.)
    
    glenn
    

    

    re -1
    
    I think you are right that the Bills will beat the Oilers but not
    stomping them. Alot of people feel that the Oilers are the best in the
    AFC, at this time in the season I will agree. I have followed the
    Oilers for 15 years and I love the R & S because it is different.
    
    I think that the Bills will bring their game up a level or two when
    Bruce Smith comes back. Warren Moon has been asked many times about the
    R & S in cold weather and he said it's not the temp that hurts the R&S
    it is the wind. But they generally go hand and hand.
    
    One thing about the R & S it is more exciting to watch then the
    traditional slam in your face football.
    
    JMHO
    Mike
    

    dont forget the chiefs, ball control and defense wins chamionships, and
    a quaterback that cab stay with in himself.. ala the great one
    
    Mr. SIMMS. bills be tough to beat.. think the buffalos will be bitching
    
    soon on the praires out west? :)
    
    dinz
    

    The Run and Shoot is an offense favoured by folks who like the
    Designated Hitter in baseball, and any rule that makes points go up on
    the scoreboard like a pin ball machine.  Its favoured by folks that
    don't have the attention span to learn and watch the nuances of the
    battle that football is.  Instead, they need the instant gratification
    of points to get excited.  "Plastic" football at its best.  
    
    People who find 11-10 hockey games exciting, slamma jamma basketball,
    and the designated gimmick, on turf, in domes, are run and shoot
    folks...
    
    It's an offense geared to inflate the stats of quarterbacks, to the
    point where just about anyone from Milton Berle to Pee Wee Herman could
    pass for 250+ yards a game.
    
    HTH
    
    JD

    The Run & Shoot is a_offensife formation or system, not a rule change. 
    Advocates of the Single Wing probably made the same argument against 
    the forward pass and the QB handling the ball every time, when that 
    system revolutionized the game in the 1930s or '40s. Only time will tell
    whether the Run & Shoot will make a genuine, lasting impact on the
    game. As someone said earlier, it all depends on the personnel a team
    has to work with. If anything, football needs MORE coaches willing to 
    try something new and innovative. Some ideas might not work and end up 
    getting scrapped, but I give the coaches credit for trying. Football
    has too many boring, conservative coaches from the Bo Schembelcher mold 
    as it is. 
    
    Tom

    
    I agree with everything JD says in Note 200.67!!!  100% classic
    comparisons to basketball and baseball, too.  I tell everybody the same
    things and get laughed at, though.  
    
    I'll only add that the Run and Shoot is for teams that like to win
    a lot of games, but no playoffs.
    
    - Sean_who_like_a_12-9_football_game_over_a_47-42_game_anyday

    I like the Run & Shoot.  I will state that I watch the Oilers because
    they use the R&S, not because they play in Houston or have certain
    players.
    
    I like the R&S primarily because it is a new idea which was designed to
    take advanage of apparent lacks in conventional wisdom.  This is the
    same reason I started following the Bears in 83 (2 yrs. pre SB) and
    Dallas during the Stauback (?) years.  Someone found something new that
    was difficult to adjust to and crammed it down opponents throats until
    adjustments were made.  (As opposed to a coach who stays with a
    conventional style that isn't working until he is fired.)
    
    Ever since the 2 minute offense came into existance, people have been
    asking why can't offenses produce those kind of numbers all the time. 
    The standard answer has been that the defense is playing a different
    style defense that allows the offense to produce that kind of yardage.
    
    The obvious extensions to that are 1) the prevent defense is horrible
    defense. 2) Why doesn't the offense force the defense to play that way
    all the time?
    
    (On my list of great opportunities for improvement: 1) A game-ending
    defense better than the prevent. 2) Goal line pass defense which
    accounts for the pick play - BTW seeing improvement on this issue this
    year. 3) An offensive which removes the need for Superman for a QB.)
    
    One point overlooked about the 2 minute O is that there are differences
    from the conventional regulation O.  1) There is a higher pass/run
    ratio.  2) The offense uses more receivers and spreads the field. 
    These concepts are proven winners.   The R&S is an attempt to
    incorporate these concepts into the base offense.
    
    The 2 min. O has proven that offensives can rack up big points.  IMHO
    it is basic underachiving NOT to score big points with the current rule
    structure. (A whole different issue there.)  Underachiving on the part
    of offensive coordinators and head coaches who chose to use a
    low-scoring conservative O.  The R&S is refreshing when I look around
    the NFL and see a lot of floundering offenses.
    
    To dispell the notion that I like pass, pass, pass and score, score,
    score, I would like to say that I do like a balance between offense and
    defense.  If the average team scored points on half of their offensive
    possesions, that would mean goodness to me.  That would give both O and
    D a chance to excell.  It's just that currently I see the O as having
    the greatest room for improvement.
    
    For those who view the R&S as glitter and hollow, well a car race on a
    track with a speed limit would be rediculous and that is somewhat the
    same catigory I would place an offense which refuses to fully use a
    passing game.  A running game is valuable and useful, but it is not an
    end-all and be-all.
    
    Commander Scott

I'm mostly a read-only noter in this conference (don't care too much
for pissing contests), but some of the criticisms I've seen of the
R&S demand a reply.  In particular, the claim that the R&S isn't a
ball control offense.  Obviously, the person who made that claim
hasn't watched the Oilers this year.

Did anyone watch the Monday night game between the Oilers and the
Chiefs?  Do you remember the 8 or 9 minute drive that the Oilers 
used to score one of their last TDs?  I don't get to watch
Houston much (I'm in Colorado), but I follow them pretty closely,
and I've noticed several long, time-consuming drives by them this
year.  Basically, they seem to take what the defense allows.  If
the secondary plays soft, to prevent the bomb, then Warren Moon
picks them apart with the short 5-10 yard pass.  When the D
tightens up, they pull the old hitch 'n go, and throw the bomb.
Yesterday against the Bengals (I know, poor example), the Oilers
were throwing the short pass all day long, and used up a bunch of
the clock.  And it's not the first time that they've done this
against.

So, maybe the R&S isn't the greatest thing since shoes, but it's
sure working for Houston this year.  Granted, that with the personnel
they have, more conventional offenses would also work, but you have
to give the Devil his due.

Just my humble opinion,

Jerry

    ARF, ARF, ARF  (with fist swinging in air ala Arsenio Hall)

    Detroit aint dogmeant...The 2 R+S teams are combined 13-3 and both
    are winning there divisions...although they both have some tough
    games on the way....
                  SuperBowl
    	Houston Oilers	VS	Detroit Lions 

    Soiler's / Kitty Cats  Stupidbowl....  HHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWW!!!
    
    I ROlling.......
    
    Big Game

    re: Big Game
    
    Why the abuse?  Maybe because BOTH teams have as good or better record
    than your favorite team? :-)
    
    The odds on the matchup may be long, but at least it is a possibility. 
    This is unlike more than a few teams which have almost elimiated
    themselves from the playoffs, let alone the SB.  The odds are
    certainly higher than a Giants-Chiefs matchup (two reasonably
    successful smash-mouth teams).
    
    13-3 is better than the best individual team in the league for some
    years.  When the only teams in the league using the R&S have that good
    of a combined record, is certainly means more investigation of the R&S
    is justified.  
    
    Hmm... I wonder what the odds are on Cincy or Indy having a new coach
    and a R&S offense next year are.

    No abuse....  Just the facts Mam.....
    
    Big Game

    Just the facts....
    
    Houston beat all three of the top AFC West teams, and is at least a
    game ahead of each team.  That is a pretty good case for the Oilers
    being 1 of the top 2 teams in the AFC.  Sound like a good a chance to
    make it into the SB as anything you get in the NFL.
    
    The Lions have had a weak schedule, but then so has Denver.  Same
    record, both on top of their division.  Detroit is a long shot, but I
    still see them as the number 1 wildcard team in the NFC. (currently)
    
    I haven't seen New Orleans, so who knows.  With a lot of luck, the
    Lions could be the other team (Wash.) with a 1st round bye.
    
    The smart money is Washington-Buffalo, but often does the predicted
    matchup actually happen?  Houston-Detroit is long odds, but not
    rediculous.
    
    Commander Scott

    
    
    Houstons success has nothing to do with the R&S, they'd be 7-1 with a 
    conventional offense.  They have always had a fairly productive
    offense, but the difference in this team is their DEFENSE.  As has been
    said many times DEFENSE wins championships.  If Houston gets deep into 
    the playoffs they will do it on the strength of their defense, not by 
    outscoring teams ala Buffalo.  The game against Miami shows the 
    vulnerability of this toffense when Moon has an off day, remember Miami 
    can hardly be considered a defensive powerhouse, but they held this 
    "unstoppable" offense to 17 (?) points.  
    
    /Jeff

    But folks, DETROIT DOES NOT RUN THE R&S OFFENSE!!!!   And that's
    straight from the coaches mouth in one  of the football rags.  They run
    it SOME times, but not all the time.  
    
    And, the R&S Ain't won anythang yet folks.
    
    JD

       How cain they do R&S with coach rainman on the staff?
                                    Denny

    re .74
    
    Small Game,
    
    Do you really think the Donks will have another op to choke in the big
    one again ?
    
    heh heh heh ....
    
    re R&S,
    
    The Run and Shoot is a ***BALL CONTROL*** passing offense, if
    run properly. I'm a little tired of the misconception that it isn't
    good at chewing up the clock.
    
    FACT :
    
    1) The Oilers led the **NFL** in first downs.
    
    Not the AFC Central, or the AFC, but the **NFL**.
    
    2) The Oilers led the NFL in time of possession last year.
    
    Not the Chiefs or the Giants.
    
    Enough said.
    
    Doc

    re .78
    
    Jeff, nobody disputes that you have to have good defense to win a
    title. But I will say that the R&S has been a success in Houston.
    
    Moreover, so what if Miami held Houston to 17 points ? Buffalo scored 7
    against KC, should they scrap their O ? Or the Giants ?
    
    Come on ... everyone has a bad day. Houston's offense is perfect for
    their personell (deepest WR corps in the league, and the best (or at
    least best 2-3) QB ...).
    
    BTW jeff, I have to say I doubt if Houston would be as successful in a
    conventional offense now. Back when Pardee came to Houston, yes, but
    since then, White has been a disappointment (he might be a better "I"
    back), Highsmith's knees may end his career, and Jamie Williams is a
    49er, so I think the Oilers would not have been as effective in a
    2-back system as they once was ...
    
    Doc

    If the reciever Catches the ball and does not run out of bounds the
    clock stays running just like on a running play.  The only time Houston
    doesnt take alot of time off on there drives is the 50+yrd TD plays..
    But I have a feeling theyll take the long score over the time consuming
    drive....A quick score can take the wind out of a rested team !!
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

    	So Doc, who you rootin' for this weekend?  The Oilers?  The
    Redskins?  Both?
    
    				/Don

    re: .83,
    
    Correction:
    
    
    Even if the receiver DOES run out of bounds (with the exception of the
    last two minutes of the first half and the last five minutes of the
    second half), the clock keeps running.
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Nelly

From: [email protected] (MIKE RABUN, UPI Sports Writer)
Subject: NFL Numbers
Date: 29 Oct 91 21:51:33 GMT

                            ----------
	Since the AFL-NFL merger in 1970, only three of the current 28 NFL
	franchises have failed to win at least one division title. And at the
	end of this season that number could easily be reduced to one.
	The Houston Oilers, New Orleans Saints and New York Jets have not
	captured a division crown since 1970. Houston and New Orleans both have
	three-game leads in their divisions. The Jets, despite being markedly
	improved, are three games back of the Buffalo Bills in the AFC East.

    The R&S has matured at both Houston and Detroit.  I know, the Lions
    carry a TE, but they run the R&S at least 2/3 of the time. 
    
    The pass/run ratio is close to even.  Both teams have racked up big
    time of possesion numbers.  The offenses have both scored  more points
    than the system in place before the R&S.  (I remember one noter
    commenting that before the R&S Detroit never had a lead.)
    
    One thing that the R&S has retained has been its agreesiveness.   A
    classic example of this was the end of I think the Houston-Jets game. 
    Hoston had possession, about a 4 point lead and about 3 min. left.  A
    classic kill the clock possesion, where some teams would run twice and
    agonize over whether to pass on 3d and long.  On three straight series
    of downs, Houston threw on second (2nd)  down for a 7-10 yd.
    completion.  Finally, someone with the brains to win a game instead of
    hoping the other team can't run a 2 min. O.
    
    Commander Scott
    P.S. Wow is the network slow, it took me 40 min. just to write this
    note.

    Re: Doc
    
     Q:  Have the Soilers ever HAD a chance to choke in the Superbowl !
    
     A: I think Not.....
    
     Q: Will the Soilers HAVE a chance to choke in the Superbowl this Year !
    
     A: I think Not.....
    
     Q: Have the Soilers EVER won a meaningful gamm in their history !
    
     A: I think Not.....
    
     Q: Does Doc Have even A SMALL clue !
    
     A: I think Not.....
    
    
    Big Game

    Iceman, Doc, Big Game, et al:
    
    There is already a topic set up to discuss have xxx won yyy and my team
    is better than yours.  Please move your thought provoking discussions
    to topic 124.
    
    Thanks.

    The Oilers have won at least one playoff game -- against the Patriots
    around 1975 or so :-( The Pats were favored, since they won their division
    with an 11-5 record, and the Oilers were the Wild Card team. That was
    the year Chuck Fairbanks couldn't at least wait until the ennd of the
    season to quit.
    
    Tom

    re:.90
       Dec 31, 1978. The one and only playoff game in Silly stadium
    history.
                                    Denny

    ...of course the Soilers went on to get hammered by the eventual SB
    Champeen Steelers. I think it's hilarious when Dock calls others teams
    'chokers'!
                                      Denny

	Yeah but Denny, the Doc is a Washington fan too.  So he was 
happy/sad when his Redskins/Oilers won/lost.

				/Don

    Well, well well.  Once again, WIMP football loses to REAL football. 
    Didn't see the WIMPY run and shoot snot noses from Houston running up
    and down the field playing flag football yesterday, now did we.  Nope,
    saw them basically shut down by the Skins.  And just like in lasted
    year's Super Bowl, the smash-mouth NFC team beats the cutesy, gimmick,
    wimp AFC football team.  Lets hope a real team like Kansas City makes
    the SUper Bowl for the AFC, instead of a Faux-power like Houston.  Take
    em off the the turf and stick 'em outside, and they disappear.  Boy,
    did they RUN well.  The run and shoot was more like the 'Stumble and
    misfire' playing a REAL TOUGH NFC team.  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (TM)
    
    JD

    re .94
    
    
     Houston played the 'Skins as tough as anybody has all year. The
    'Skins look like a team of destiny much like the '85 Bears.
    
     No brand of NFL football is 'wimp football'. Wimps don't make it
    to the NFL. 
    
    As far as last year's Super Bowl goes, if Norwood knocks that field
    goal home ,as he should have, we wouldn't be enduring this nonsense
    now.
    
    

    Re .94
     The Skins would be at home licking thier wounds if the Damn kicker
    could have done his job.....  I predicted the hook after the near miss
    to the right I knew he would over compensate and blow it !!  Boy was 
    I pulling hard for the Soilers.....  I really HATE redskin football.
    I don't know why but I can't stand that team.  FWIW, i thought
    yesterdays game was great,  fun to watch and exciting to the end.  I
    also think it proves that the Run & Shoot is viable in the NFL...  
    A missed field goal is the difference in this game.  Houston is tough
    
    
    Big Game

    re .95 and .96  
    
    WAAAH, WWAAAAHH  The fact is - the KICKER didn't do his job last year
    or this year.  So keep crying inthe beer, boys.
    
    And it is WIMP football.  Indoors on turf, like the Oilers play - is
    wimp football.   Give me real weather - like Chicago or Green Bay or a
    cold, snowy Denver game over the confines of domes.  ANd as usual, the
    Oilers can't beat a good team on the road outdoors.  
    
    Worn Moon chucks 2 Int's, as usual for him, in a big game.  They can't
    run worth a damn.  They got outgained, out posessed, were 3-12 on 3rd
    downs.  The awesome Ooiler Defense got ZERO sacks and the Oilers were
    out-rushed 154 - 25.  Big, manly men of the Skins beat up the little
    wimply men of the OIlers.    And Howfield felt the choke collar
    tightening as he missed the 33 yarder.  
    
    They should take the OIlers and other Dome teams like Minnesota and
    start a Clown Football League and let fans who need electronic
    scoreboards to tell them when to cheer get engrossed in the FAUX
    football played.
    
    JD

    Houston's D kept them in the game. Houston never shoulda had that final
    field goal in the first place, fumble on KO. Houston's D holds Da
    'Skins on their firsted possession. Then what? Worn Goon goes and
    tosses an into to blow the game.  

       So JD, how 'bout them Oilers! You think they'll ever get anywhere
    with this Run and Shoot thing? 
                                  Denny  ;^o

    I'll agree with ya on the point about the Domes....  I think Domes and
    Turf should be outlawed in football....  The Soilers can compete and
    the Foreskins proved it for `em....  I HATE thos damn Sikns....
    
    Big Game
    
    
    P.s.  they should change their names out of respect for Native
    Americans.....  But they won't ,  they're are scum !!
    
    

    
>    They should take the OIlers and other Dome teams like Minnesota and
>    start a Clown Football League and let fans who need electronic
>    scoreboards to tell them when to cheer get engrossed in the FAUX
>    football played.
 
    New York bias!  SPORTS' elitism!  What makes you think that New
    York Giants' fans are so much more knowledgeable about real football
    than the good folks of Houston and Minnesota!  All fans are the
    same!  NO WON IS TOO BLAM!  ;-) ;-) ;-)
    
    glenn
     

    Glenn -
    
    You are right.  But, if your read carefully, I never said fans of any
    team were worse or better.  Just 'fans who need electronic
    scoreboards.."
    
    I've been listening to George Bush, and am starting to master that
    technique....
    
    JD

    MINNIESODA FANS IS TOO BLAM!!! IF THEY DIN'T HAVE THAT STOOPID DOME
    THEY WOOD BE REEL MEN AND PLAY OUTDORES NOT INA STUPID DOME!! TEH
    VIKIGNS USE TOO BE A GOOD TEAM BEACUSE THEY PLEY IN TEH SNOW AND THE
    COLD NOT ON A RUGG IN A DOME!!

    Didn't the 49'ers win a few SuperBowls playing "Wimpy" football?
    
    Anyone can play football on grass.  It takes a real man to play it on a
    parking lot (aka astroturf).

    Mac -
    
    
    The Niners were far, far removed from Wimp football.  First, throughout
    the 1980's, the Niners' defense was consistently ranked near the top of
    the defensive heap in the NFC and NFL.  Lott, Dean, Haley, Carter,
    etc... led a star filled, tough defense that hit with the best of them. 
    No one hit harder than Ronnie Lott from the secondary slot.   Second,
    they usually had the horses in the backfield - Craig was a 1000 yard
    runner, remember.   And they had tough tight ends and receivers not
    afraid to go over the middle - and big receivers compared to the smurfs
    running around playing DOME football.  
    
    I think the Super Bowl should be played in either Chicago ro Greenbay
    every year.   NO more of this warm weather stuff!
    
    JD

    There isn't any correlation between a "wimp" offense and a "wimp"
    defense.  I think if you look at the Oilers objectively you'll find
    their defense can play smash-mouth with the best of them.
    
    John 

�    The Niners were far, far removed from Wimp football.  
    
    Bruce May's personal name was "Wimp Football Rules" after the '9ers
    were criticized for not playing "smash mouth" football.
    
    Shouldn't a clearing dominating team playing smash mouth football win
    by more than a FG, and not have to depend on overtime and a turnover?

    John -
    
    Hey, and I agree.  Detroit's defense isn't wimpy either. 
    Unfortunately, the high powered stat producing offense gets the ink. 
    No matter what the offense, you caint win without defense.  Good
    defense beats good offense.   
    
    JD

    
    Scoring more points than the other team is what beats the other team.  
    The best defensive team in football isn't always the champion. 
    What is true is that you have to have at least a *good* defensive
    team to win it all, because it becomes very difficult to have to
    score a lot of points in order to win week in, week out.  In other
    words, defense brings the consistency it takes to go all the way.
    
    One thing I don't understand is the hang-up on the "run-and-shoot" 
    label.  I keep hearing stuff like "well, Detroit doesn't run the
    run-and-shoot anymore".  Who cares?  Do they tend to send four 
    receivers out on a high percentage of their plays?  [Yes.]  Have 
    the Redskins done the same in their past winning efforts?  [Yes.]  
    The 49ers?  [Yes.]  Is there anything more aesthetically pleasing
    about the wide-open offenses these teams have used than what the
    Oilers or Lions are using?  I don't think so.  It all looks pretty
    close to the same to anyone not extensively trained in the X's and
    O's.  What's the difference?  
    
    Wide-open offensive football is here to stay, folks.  Without it,
    no one would score.  If they played the game today in the same 
    offensive style that they did in the 50s with today's specialization 
    and computer-driven preparation on defense (not to mention the 
    tremendous athletes on defense today), there would be precious 
    little scoring.  By the old-time standards, even defensive stalwarts 
    like the Giants and Bears would have girly-mon offenses...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn, Sorry, but the Skins and Niners never sent out 4 receivers on a
    high percentage.  They alwasy had tight ends and a running game.
    
    Opening up the offense is good, and as you said, everyone does it to a
    certain degree.  However, 'pure' run and shoot - which Houston does
    (and why, with a horrible running game, they call it R & S, I'll never
    know) hasn't proven anything yet - other then the ability to inflate
    offensive stats for quarterbacks and receivers.  It is perfectly suited
    for climate-controlled indoor dome games - ala arena football, which
    spawned the offense.  
    
    Football is a violent game.  It is supposed to have hard hits and bone
    crunching - not wimply passes to little guys who run out of bounds
    every two seconds.  If you want non-violence, watch baseball.  
    
    But, big scoring offenses excite borderline fans, and make the game
    more 'marketable' for the TV audience, so I fully expect it to become
    the norm.  I'll be less of a football fan then, but that's life.  
    
    JD

     Well said.....  I get so sick of the NFC jerks talking about how
    their teams play real "Smash Mouth" Football and everyone else is
    playing Girly Mon Football.....  The FACK(tm) is the Skins have a 
    good team, so does Houston.  Sunday's game was a tough fought, 
    well played and beautifuly coached.  It was very close and surely
    could have gone to Houston except for a misque on special teams 
    (never shoulda went to OT).  If I were a fan of a "Smash Mouth"
    team I'd be thinking to myself about how close a "WIMP" team came
    to closing the door on the best team in the NFL, at this juncture.
    Wide open football is here to stay and I for one am happy about it.
    I hate those damn 10-6 games that the NFC is famous for.  I guess
    this crap won't stop until one of the so called "Run & Shoot" teams
    kicks the living SH*T out of a "Smash Mouth" team in the SB.  I predict
    the time is coming soon, Very Soon.....
    
    
    Big Game
    
    P.S.  Great Game Houscum Soilers, I don't like ya but I likek the
    Foreskins even less !!

    > Football is a violent game. ... If want non-violence watch baseball.
    
    If want violence watch hockey, or better yet, watch boxing.  Maybe the
    O-line should chop block on every play.
    
    Football is more than just violence and hitting.  Player speed and team 
    organization are also very important.  Some of the hardest hits are
    delivered to the QB and WR during the passing game, and you call it a
    wimpy game?  Football is an exciting game.  Both the hitting and the
    big plays make it so, along with the matesty of a domanite (?) running
    team or defense.
    
    If Defense wins, why weren't the '83 Bears (losing record) champions? 
    I believe they had one of the top defenses that year.
    
    The R&S is proving itself to be viable option.  A bit extreme maybe,
    but viable.  Any experment that takes a team and increases its winning
    percentage for two straight years is no longer an experment.
    
    The bottom line is the R&S is winning more games than the system it
    replace by the teams using it.
    
    re: the Washington game
    
    Stupid networks.  One of the important games of the season (8-0 vs.
    7-1) and they blacked it out.  Something about conflict with the
    Packers.  WHO CARES ABOUT THEM.  And what happened to the blowout that
    everyone was predicting?  6 points line is substantial in NFL terms.
    
    Commander Scott

    re .112 You mean they blacked out the Houston-Washington game in
    Wisconsin because it was being played at the same time as the
    Packers-Jests? Correct me if'n I'm wrong, but usually the away team
    dictates which network the game is on, so the Oilers-Skins would be NBC,
    and the Packers-Jets on CBS. To tell the truth, I don't remember which
    channel it was on. We got the Pats-Bills on NBC and the Saints-Rams on
    CBS in the Boston area. I think the Lions & Bears were the eraly CBS
    game.
    
    Tom

    re: 113 
    
    In Wiscsonsin, the Packers-Jets were on CBS in the noon-4 time slot.  
    The NBC NFL preview extensively covered the Oiler-Redskin game, then
    showed NO game in the same time slot (NBA-preview instead).  So only 1
    early game was televised.  I drove to Chicago during the late game, so
    I don't know what was televised.
    
    As NBC was wrapping up, they said some blurb about local games
    preempting the feature game.  Packers-Jets was one of the games
    specifically mentioned.  Needless to say, I was a bit steamed and had
    my anti-Packer cheers in full swing.
    
    Note: This is definitely non-standard coverage.  Normally, CBS and NBC
    both have an early game, and NBC has a late game.  I think that this
    week they reversed it and both had a late game.  I can normally duck
    the Packer games if necessary.
    
    Scott

    I heard Houscum waived their kicker...

    
     This is true...  I also heard he was in tears at the press
    conference...  Pretty tough to lose your job on one play.
    I guess those missed extra points did help though
    
    Big Game
    

    Well, Howfield was  on shaky ground. Not just because of the missed FG,
    and the extra points, but because he had barely made a few other kicks.
    Several of his FG's and PATs staggered through the uprights.
    
    The Oilers blew it bigtime when they put Tony Zendejas on Plan B. He
    was an accurate kicker, with a decent leg. In 1989 he had an off
    season, in 1990, he broke his leg, and lost his job to Teddy Garcia,
    who had a career 1/2 season. Despite Garcia's long-term inconsistency,
    the Oilers gave Tony Z the boot (no pun intended), and figured Garcia
    would win the job, and sent him to the WLAF to stay in a groove.
    
    Garcia got cut.
    
    Then Ian Howfield came on the scene, and outkicked Garcia. The Oilers
    had no choice to keep Howfield, since he earned the job, but suffice to
    say that they had no real confidence in him. One slump would probably
    cost him, and the string of shaky kicks didn't help.
    
    Sad, but that's the NFL. 
    
    If I was Howfield, I'd remember that Nick Lowery got cut 5-6 times
    before sticking with the Chiefs. Ditto for Mark Mosley of Washington.
    
    Doc

    
    
    Boo Hoo, the tears are welling up in my eyes!!!!!!
    
    Tough job, probably takes AT MOST 4 minutes per game to be classified
    as work!!!!!!
    
    Breaks my heart!!!!!

    
    DrM (aka Dork Midwife), 
    
    Last weekend couldn't have been that bad for you... with all the teams
    you root for, I'm sure atleast 10 of them won (of course, that's
    not saying much since at one time or another you've been on the 
    bandwagon of every team in the NFL).

>    Dork Midwife
    
    Was he in Battlestar Glactica ?

    After "definately seeking football" for 10 weeks, I finally found
    a bar showing NFL games here in Munich, (stealing the games from
    Armed Forces Network). And what an introduction, the Hou./Dal. game.
    I'm no Houston fan, coming from Cleveburg, but they sure made for
    an enjoyable evening.

    
     Houston is looking tough....  They need to continue their winning 
    ways and get some help from the Bills to have a chance at going to 
    the Bowl....  I just can't see the Soilers winning in upstate NY.
    in December.  I sure would rather see them in the SB than Kelly and
    the rest of the bums from Buffalo...
    
    Big Game

    Maybe the Pats will repay a debt and knock off the Bills. Right now,
    Buffalo is quite beatable, but they are playing "well enough to win".
    They also play The Fish one more time this year, but I don't remember
    the rest of the scheudle. Could someone fill in the gaps ?
    
    ======================
    
    Houston rolled up 583 offense yards and 33 first downs against the
    'Boys, as the Oilers once again was saved by a Smith fumble. Three
    weeks ago, it was Sammy Smith, this time Emmitt Smith fumbled in OT as
    the Cowboys had gotten into FG range.
    
    Houston needs a Buffalo loss to take the best-conference-record lead
    (the two teams do not play each other this year - and the Oilers and
    Bills have one loss apiece in the AFC).
    
    This week the Oilers host the Browns in the Dome on national TV.
    
    I *might* be looking forward to it .... heh heh heh ...
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. Moon threw for 438 yards on 41-56 passing with ZERO picks. Eight
    different players caught passes. 
    
    Larmar Lathon is making up for a dismal rookie season in a big way as
    he starting to fullfil his promise. He has 2 INTS and 4 forced fumbles
    in his last three games.
    
    00:00

>    This week the Oilers host the Browns in the Dome on national TV.
>    
>    I *might* be looking forward to it .... heh heh heh ...
    
    Dr. Zero..   what the matter, you a little nervous 'er what?  
    
    
    /Jeff

    Yeah, I took the Oilers to cover 25 points, and I can see them winning
    34-10, so pardon me if I get a little antsy ... :-)
    
    Actually a Houston win, and a Steeler loss should just about clinch the
    division title right ? Houston would be at 9-2, with the Browns and
    Steelers at 4-5 ....with 5 games left ....
    
    Doc

            Buffalo                             Houston  
            -------                             -------
    
    11/17   at Miami (Mon)                      Cleveland
    11/24   at NE                               at Pitts
    12/1    NYJ                                 Philly (Mon)
    12/8    at Raiders                          Pitts
    12/15   at Indy                             at Cleveland
    12/22   Detroit                             at NYG

    
    QB Comparision
    
    Kosar    11 TDs, 1 int, rating around 93.5
    Moon     14 TDs, 13 ints, rating around 83.5
    
    'nuff said...  I'll post Moon's dismal record against the Dawgs
    when I find the data... but it won't be hard... its highly publicized
    every time the two teams play... I think Moon is 2-9 against the Browns
    with 2.5x more ints than tds... a real CHOKE artiste!

    Oh really ... pray tell Groaner.
    
    What were the scores of last years games ? And what were Bernie's
    stats ?
    
    We await your answer.
    
    And how about that Bernie last week eh ? Nice job by the Clowns holding
    on to that 23-0 lead eh ?
    
    HAHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!

    Less filling...
    

    Tastes Great!

    Less Taste!

    send HAWK mail!!!

    Oops, sorry for starting a rathole.  
    
    Who was better Dan Pastorini or Brian Sipe?

    Where's the BEEF!

    Bailiff!!!! Whack his Pee-pee!!

      Wheres the barf bag?

    Never mind Bernie, who frankly is the least of the Browns' problems.
    What'll croak the Browns is a "defense" that let the Eagles come back
    from the dead last week...if a wounded Jim McMahon can disect that
    secondary, Moon will rip it to shreds.
    
    I'll predict 37-13 Houston.
    
    
    py

      re-1   Thats should be an acurate prediction......
    
        will gronowski spew when houston woops the spots?
    
    	Tim

    
     Any Knuckle Head Can Score !!

    The meek may inherit the earth ...
    
    
    But they'll never get the ball !!!!

    I liked Sipe (after all, he was a S.D. State alum), and he was one of
    the best from 79-81. But overall, Dante was the better, certainly on
    the guttiest QB's ever to play this game. In fact, most Oiler fans
    believe that Dante wasn't effective unless he had some broken bones ...
    
    (Ask Dolphin or Pats fans about that theory in 78 ...)

    
    
    Big Game, the correct quote is:
    
    "Any Knucklehaid Quarterback can get padded stats in the RUn and Shoot"
    
    
    HTH
    
    Doc -
    
    Dante was tough - and I like dhim, but Sipe was the better QB.
    
    JD

    	Stains wif' points over the Soilers.  Send me mail Doc if you
    gots any testosterone.
    
    				/Don

    
    Last week BERNIE OUTPLAYED MOON... Check the stats... the bottom line:
    If the Oilers are a better team than the Browns as DrM claims, Kosar
    is a FAR SUPERIOR QB... he has a higher rating with a poorer supporting
    cast.
    
    

    
    RE: .142
    
    > Any Knuckle Head Can Score !!
    
    Big Game, this statement is not true.  I know a certainly Houston
    Oilers fan, who also like just about every other team in the league
    when they are hot... and from first-hand viewing... that knucklehead
    could not score...  he claimed his forte was defense... but thats
    what all the stiffs say.
    

    
    RE: .145
    
    JD, my point exactly...  
    
    Washed-Up Goon plays in the R&S (rise and shine - individual over 
    team concept) offense.  He only has 3 more TDs than Kosar and 12
    more ints... I'm impressed!  WOW!

    
      QB ratings are 1/2 trash anyway.....  Without moon,  the soilers
    would be just another team,  and without kosar,  the spots would be a
    2-7 team or in other words, one of the worst teams in the nfl. 
    Acutally the spots are one of the worst teams so nevermind;^)
    
      Tim

    re .150
    
    ROOOOOLWAARD !!!!

re.149
    
    
 >   Washed-Up Goon plays in the R&S (rise and shine - individual over 
 >   team concept) offense. 
    
    Team concept eh ?
    
    Oilers are 8-2
    
    Browns are 4-6  ....
    
    Now what was that about team concept ?
    
    Fact : Moon has been to last three Pro Bowls.
    
    Fact : Bernie watches the Pro Bowl on TV.
    
    Fact : Gronowski The Greek predicted a Clowns win lasted week ("you can
    BANK on it") ....and Browns choke in clutch again ....
    
    heh heh heh
    
    Doc

     I don't know why youz guys even stop to comparing the Clowns to the 
    Oilers with the Groaner.....  The 2 teams aren't even in the same
    class. The Clowns are in the cellar while the Oilers are leading the
    Div.  The Clowns will be home for X-Mas....  The oilers may even 
    be playing at home for the playoffs....  Bernie is rated higher than 
    Moon but who has the better record.  QB ratings mean NOTHING !!!
    it's the W & L columns that count.  Elway has never been rated at
    the top of the QB Ratings but I'll bet he's right up close to the top
    whaen it come to career win/loss percentages....
    
    Big Game

    
    Big Game, you are losing credibility.  The Browns are in the cellar?
    Can you read?  Have you seen the standings?
    

    
     Listen Groaner....  Okay,  They may not be on the bottom stair of the
    cellar but you can't get any closer than they are....  The Clowns are 
    one of the weakest team in the NFL and to compare them with the Oilers 
    is beyond belief for me.   When the Clowns have a winning record and 
    a chance at the playoffs come see me......  We'll both be dead by then
    
    Big Game

    The Oilers are 2 plays away from being the (current) best team in the
    NFL.
    
    Let's make a realistic comparison for Houston - say Buffalo.  Anyone
    think that these two teams *aren't* the odds on favorites to meet in
    the AFC championship game?
    
    Home field advantage is a real issue between these two team.  At least
    the announcers make a big deal of it. ;-)  Everyone talks about the
    horror of playing in Buffalo in January - what about the horror of
    playing the Oilers on good traction and in no wind (a dome).
    
    Scott
    
    P.S. Grass in January is non-existent.

    
    As shown last night, Houston is very vulnerable.  I don't believe they 
    are the best in the AFC (although they might be as good as Buffalo), 
    right now, I'm not sure who is the best in the AFC..  Bottom line, it 
    doesn't matter cause the best of the AFC won't match up with any of the
    top 3 NFC teams..  NFC domination continues, I'm afraid.  
    
    /Jeff
    

    	Good thing you were cheekin Doc, otherwise you would've been
    out some serious coin today.
    
    				/Don

    First :
    
    Let the Gronowski watch begin !
    
    I wish I could have seen has face in the last two minutes !
    
    Second (re. Jeff)
    
    Houston had an off-game, but still had enough to take out Cleveland.
    That should speak volumes for this team. That was a game they would
    have lost in the Glanville era, probably by 10 points.
    
    Moon continues to impress. His receivers put the ball on the ground
    THREE times, and the Browns usually put 4 men back to shut off those
    lethal 16-20 strikes in the seams. So he nicked and dimed his way to
    his 30th career 300 yard day. 31-44 for 399 yards, not to mention a
    sizzling 23 for 30 (almost 80%) in the second half.
    
    What does worry me is how Houston has long stretches when they forget the
    running game. It looked like White was running strong and hard in the
    seond half, but got maybe 3 carries in the half. That was
    disappointing, and could prove fatal to the Oiler's Super Bowl chances.
    
    After the great start the ground game got off to in the first three
    weeks, I'd love to see them get back to it.
    
    Third : Lamar Lathon is playing HUGE. He made some plays that had
    "Impact Linebacker" written all over it. This guy can be the best OLB
    the Oilers have had since Robert "Dr Doom" Brazile, he can pass cover,
    HIT, and blitz. 
    
    And that was the real missing link on the Oilers.
    
    [ FYI : Lee Williams is now on the practice squad, having recovered
    from a broken arm in Week 3 (?) Look out for him ....]
    
    Hell of a physical game last night. How about that hit Eugene Seale put
    on Joe Morris ! WHAP !
    
    On another note, WR Danny Peebles of the Browns spent the night at
    Methodist Hospital in observation. He met Bubba McDowell helmet to
    helmet in the 4th period, and has immobilized and taken straight to the
    hospital. I hope he's ok ... at least he has movement in all limbs (a
    very encouraging sign).
    
    Finally, I still think Houston and the Bills are the class of the AFC.
    This was not Houston at their best, but after two straight OT games,
    one could expect a letdown of sorts. Look for them to pick up the pace
    in the next few weeks. Houston has only 1 conference loss, Buffalo two,
    so the heat is on the Bills to stay ahead of Houston. Both teams have
    simular scheudles. Denver has a patsy scheudle, thank God Houston
    blasted them earlier this year. I expect the Donks to go 12-4 at worst,
    13-3 should clinch the conference-best record.
    
    Houston doesn't look like the Skins at present, but they'll be there,
    I'd rest at little easier if their running game comes back.
    
    Doc

    re: 157
    
    Don't be so sure about NFC domination, all three NFC powers have shown
    weaknesses againt the AFC.
    
    	Bears were beaten by Bills
    	Redskins taken to OT by Oilers (should have lost)
    	Saints were beaten by Chargers
    
    The combined record of the division leaders
    
    	NFC		AFC
    	11-0		10-1
    	 9-2		 9-2
    	 9-2		 8-3
    	----		----
    	20-4		27-6
    
    The NFC is looking better at this point in the season.  But frightfully
    lopsided - no.
    
    As far as Houston goes, from the few games that the networks have
    allowed me to watch - they seem to be occationally domiating but often
    inconsistant.  The recievers lately seem to have problem hanging on to
    the ball.  The defense has given up some big pass plays in critical
    situations (last play at NE, last night 4th and 13).
    
    Houston seems to be having difficulty making the step from very good to
    championship caliber.  Remember, they are 2 big plays (missed FG,
    proper D on last play of game) from being unbeaten and being where
    Washington is now.  But then again, that what a champion is - making
    the big play when it's needed.
    
    One things for sure, being a Oiler fan is hair-raising.  For a 9-2 team
    they have had a lot of close games.  I don't think I could take
    watching games like last night 3 weeks in a row.
    
    One thing to remember - where is Houston now compared to where all the
    preseason predictions said they would be?

    Sorry, I can't add, and Buffalo hasn't played yet this week.
    
    	NFC	AFC
    	29-4	26-6
    
    Scott

    Here is the only way Houston can win the Super Bowl - they get home
    feld advantage - and to tell ya the truth - right now I wouldn't be
    surprised if DENVER takes the AFC.  All the limelight is on the Bills
    and the Oilers - yet the Broncos are playing good ball.  
    
    Is the Super Bowl indoors this year?  If yes, then if Houston makes it,
    they will win.  If it is outdoors on natural turf, they lose.
    
    They also lose at Denver or Buffalo in the playoffs - as the kicking
    game and the running game comes back to haunt them.
    
    Everyone says "how lucky" the Skins were.  Turn that around.  The
    Oilers, without some luck, could be looking at a 3-game losing streak
    right now.
    
    The Saints loss was an upset - but another case of a dome team playing
    away on turf and losing...
    
    The Bills??  No one, cept maybe the Skins, can put up more points.
    
    Right now, however, no one matches the Skins on both sides of the ball.
    No one.
    
    JD

>    Right now, however, no one matches the Skins on both sides of the ball.
>    No one.

And please don't forget that they have arguably the best coach in 
football on their sideline.

Would the Gomer Pyle Handley had a tenth of Gibbs savvy.....

    
>    Is the Super Bowl indoors this year?  If yes, then if Houston makes it,
>    they will win.  If it is outdoors on natural turf, they lose.
    
    Unfortunately yes.  The Super Bowl is at the Pussydome in Minneapolis.
    
    
    Joe
 

    
    C'mon, the difference between playing in the Superdome or the Metrodome
    and playing outdoors in Miami or the Rose Bowl is negligible.  The only
    difference is the field surface, and that probably hurts a speed-based 
    running team more than a passing team...
                          
    The Oilers have to take the same road to the neutral Super Bowl
    as did all the great blood-and-guts team of the past.  If they can
    get by a Buffalo in Buffalo, there'd be no asterisks...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn -
    
    Who mentioned asterisks?  I didn't.  I think that they have a better
    chance playing in a nice, climate controlled, artificial turf dome then
    they do outside in the Super Bowl, if they make it that far.  And, I
    think they are have a better chance making the Bowl if they play inside
    in front of their fans, then if they have to travel to Mile High or
    Buffalo (and if they do go to buffalo, I'm hoping for -20 degrees and
    snow!
    
    JD

    
    JD, you took the words right out of my mouth.  The way Houston has
    played the last 2 games they're very lucky not to be in the midst 
    of a 3 game loosing streak.  They've been winning close games 
    and living on the edge.  They are in no way playing consistent 
    dominant football like the Redskins.  
    
    How they managed not to put up big points against the Browns secondary 
    (minus Minnifield, and a  host of others), is beyond me.  Off day..  
    maybe, but if you can't get up for a divisional rival (who's played 
    better than their 4-7 record would indicate), who can you get up for?
    
    /Jeff

      Glenn,   There is also a big difference between the Domes and
    Natural, and thats the weather.  I don't think "most" dome teams can play
    in the snow storms like the "natural" teams that play 2-3 games in it
    every year.  
    
      JD hit it right,  if the Houston plays inside,  then their chances
    are better for the SB than if they do  play denver in a January snow
    storm.  I do feel that the soilers can beat Buffalo in NY as long as
    its not snowing.  Buffalo does play on the artificial stuff.
    
      Its a race,  and it will come down to the last week....
    
    	Tim

    Firs of all, Denver may be playing good ball, but they are also playing
    with a 5th place scheudle. Lots of patsies (no pun intended). The KC
    win is their first big win over a good team that I can remember.
    (They've lost twice to the Raiders, and got demolished in the Dome.)
    They still have something to prove.
    
    As for weather, snow is not going to be a big problem for Houston.
    Remember last year's Bills-Miami game ? Somehow, I don't think Dan
    Marino plays in a lot of snow in Miami. Yet he and Kelly passed for
    over 750 yards between them and put 78 points on the board. Cold is not a 
    big problem (Moon had some of his best games in Canada, where Buffalo
    is seen as a place to thaw out :-). WIND can be a killer though. However, 
    remember what Houston did to a great KC defense on a COLD, WET AND WINDY 
    day at Arrowhead.
    
    FWIW, the Oilers practice on grass, unlike the Vikes and other teams
    that play on turf - grass will not slow them down a whole lot.
    
    As for the other teams in the league :
    
    Bills - They keep winning, but their defense isn't very impressive at
    all. They will need the homefield in the playoffs even more than
    Houston. So far, they have yet to show that they can play effectively
    against a physical, power running team. KC destroyed them, and the Jets
    should have beaten them. 
    
    Denver - Like I said, they have made the most of an easy scheudle. But
    they aren't the cream of the conference.
    
    KC - I thought they were ready to make a move, but DeBerg really stunk
    up the joint yesterday, and Marty S. still doesn't have a big play
    wideout to complement the running game. Hell, he ought to have traded
    Barry Word for a Flipper Anderson (for example), and KC would be right
    up there ....
    
    Saints - GREAT defense. Offense is a footnote, and both QB's are
    battered. I can't see them going too far in the NFC.
    
    Niners - If they can keep their head above water until Young gets back,
    they can pose a serious threat to the Skins. Otherwise, forget it.
    
    Skins - JD said it best. They are playing awesome on both sides of the
    ball right now, but remember they already gone through their tought
    period. The last 3-4 weeks, they've looked awesome, but remember
    Atlanta has a defense that can give up the big play in bunches or make
    the big play in simular fashion. The Steelers stink. The Oilers played
    Washington tough on the road, and should have won. They are great, but
    not unbeatable.

    
    The skins are dominating because dumping Doug "one game" Williams
    is finally paying off.  Smart move to dump the stiff when they did.
    

    You are quite right. 
    
    
    
    Now, when will the Clowns dump Bernie "No Game" Kosar ?
    
    I mean the way that geek has tortured y'all, it's really sad ....

    You know what really pisses me off......
    
    
    	Old "One Game" had to have that game against the Donks
    
    	ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH
    
    Big Game

    Hey Small Lame ....
    
    
    
    Cain you say :
    
    
    
    MVP !!!!! MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  
MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  
MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  
MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  MVP !!!!  
    
    
    
    BWHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yea I can....  Doug had a great game and I'm not trying to take
    anything away from him.....  It just I wished he could have done 
    it in a different game.  I still say he was a one game QB, MVP or 
    not !!
    
    Big Game

    Doug was a good QB, maybe not HoF, but an above-average career. He got
    some weak Bucs teams into the playoffs with little support on the
    offensive side of the ball. 
    
    (Please note that TB hasn't been a "contendah" sinch he left.)
    
    And his numbers weren't bad - in fack his stats kinda reminds you of Mr
    Ed's  ...
    
    
    
    except of course that he delivered in the Big One !
    
    Doc
    
    

    Warren Moon and the Oilers have settled on his bonus at appx. $1.5
    million, which can be readjusted upwards if and when new information is
    received on the salaries of Elway and Kelly (?).
    
    From the talk in the paper and on ESPN Sunday night, Moon was pretty
    bitter about the way that the Oiler front office (mis)handled the whole
    affair (so what's new :-( ). It seems that there was some
    penny-pinching going on bigtime. We'll see how it affected his
    performance ....
    
    doc

    
    Isn't the salary bonus kinda moot, since it seems unlikely he's gonna 
    finish in the top 3 this year!  

    Re: -1,
    
    No, it's not moot due to the fact that he is due the bonus for finishing
    in the top three last year.  The inability to get definitive proof of
    the other two/three top QB's contract values has prevented Moon from
    receiving his contractual bonus.
    
    
    Nelly

    
    So sorry..   I would have assumed he would have his bonus from last 
    year already, if not he's got a serious beef with the Oilies, and I'm 
    suprised he's even playing this year.  Hope he gets interest on all the 
    money they owe him.
    
    /Jeff

    Moon is a man of principle. In an ESPN interview last night he sia dit
    was the first time in his pro career (yes, including Canada - and i
    know they aren't rooling in dough) that he was treated in a
    less-than-straightforward manner. it really affected him quite a bit. 
    
    As for why he kept playing, it is without a doubt due to his desire to
    win the SB, and frankly the Oilers had better do it within the next 2-3
    years, after that the core talent will be getting pretty old.
    
    Moreover, the Oiler player had decided to adpot a "screw management,
    let's win it in spite of them" attitude back in the Glanville days.
    
    Sad that it had to come to that, but Bud Adams is a modern day
    Cominsky.
    
    Doc

    Oiler's win !
    
    Moon Rooooooless !!!
    
    
    NOT !!!!!

    
    Quite impressive performance by Moon yesterday... MORE INTs in ONE
    GAME THAN Kosar has all year....
    
    
    HA HA HA!
    
    I knew it...  the Oilers won't clinch the AFC Central title on their
    own... they'll back into it... they will lose the week they clinch,
    and only clinch because Pittsburgh or Cleveland lost...

    
    Oh, I forgot...  Moon has a weaker supporting cast thus a lower QB
    rating... and the 5 INTs in one game.

    And the Oilers still beat the Browns last week !

Hello, Warren, we'll be down to visit y'all nexted Monday night.

Hope you have your chin straps buckled.

Sincerely,

The Eagles defense

    All six (6) division leaders lose this weekend, and the Oilers take the
    most abuse.  Some people must not like them or something.
    
    I didn't see the game, but from the comments in here Moon had an awful
    day.  Yet the game was still close.  6 turnovers should have been a
    blowout.  The recent string of nail-biters must have taken their toll
    on the team.
    
    Houston is a real loser in this division leader fiasco.  Now because of
    being in a 4 team division, the home field advantage against Buffalo is
    almost out of reach.
    
    Lately, all the teams have been playing a semi-prevent against the
    Oilers' O.  I'm not familiar with the Philly D, but if they try to come
    up and force the issue, maybe, just maybe (please), we'll see something
    like the Washington-Atlanta game.  Houston needs a big win to get
    themselves back on track.  A few big running plays would go a long ways
    also.
    
    Scott

    If Warren Moon throw the same low risk passes that Kosar throws he would
    have alot less INT's.  
    
    mike
    

    Agreed....
    
     Bernice is an overated Bum...  I still say who gives a crap about
    the QB rating...  Whats the win/loss look like when you but Bernice
    up against Moon.  Not very good, Aye.  Wake up Clowns fans.  You can 
    have the best QB around but if the resy of the team stinks the place up 
    week after week it does no good.  Just ask the Chargers of the Fouts/
    Air Correl era.
    
    Big Game
    
    Dan Fouts Was one of the best ever....

    
    Big Game... Good Question...  What is the win/loss look likw ehn you 
    put Bernie up against Moon.
    
    Well, Kosar is 7-4 against the Oilers, Moon is something like 5-9
    v.s. the Browns.  So what are you saying?

    Groaner,
    
     You know exactly what I was saying.....  I should have been
    more careful when writing the last reply as I know you Clowns
    Fans have a way of twisting everything to make it look like the
    Clowns and Bernice are the GAWDS of football.
    
     What I was saying is look at the records of both football teams
    for this season.  Clowns are in the cellar  and Soilers are at the 
    to of their Div..  Nuff said !!
    
    Big Game

    
    
    What's Moon's record outside of the Dome?   Take him and the rest of
    wimply dome run and shooters and put 'em outside in real man's weather,
    and they fall apart, just like yesterday.  It's too bad, cuz we know
    Warren used to be able to handle the cold when he was in Canada - but
    he's gotten all wimply....
    
    JD

    That manly weather team Da Bears did real good against that wimply team
    from southern Florida yesterday didn't they JD.

If you want to see manly football in manly weather you had to see the Grey Cup
Yesterday.....The temp was 1 degree at game time, outdoors, on turf. The rocket
ran back a kickoff for the game breaking td. I still stand by my earlier 
statements that he would have been a first round bust in the NFL. The canadian 
game is made for special teams players (which he is very good at) but as a WR
he hasn't done much of anything this year in the CFL.

Matt Donnigan deserved the MVP IMHO. He had an extremely mesed up shoulder that
he couldn't lift over his head on Saturday and led his team to the victory 
Sunday. He completed some clutch throws yesterday. 

I don't know how they can slam into each other in 1 degree weather...One would 
think that the plastic would crack at those temps....


Metz
 

    Mac -
    
    Last time I looked, Joe Robbie stadium didn't have a dome on it, and it
    didn't have plastic grass.  Your arguement is negated.  
    
    JD

    JD,
    
     I dislike Domeball as much as the next guy (After all being a Donk fan
    with their record inside make you lean that way).  The only point that
    I'm trying to make is that the almighty QB rating is a bunch of crap
    and means absolutely nothing to the win/loss columns.  My personal 
    feeling is that Turf and Domeball should be banished from the league
    but chances of that happening are about as good a the Clowns winning
    the Superbowl this year...  Slim to none and Slim left months ago !
    
    Big Game

    When was the last time it snowed in Miami, JD?  The Bills play on turf,
    yet it snows in Buffalo.  I guess that makes them a half-manly team,
    eh?

    And, just what is so un-manly about the no-huddle offense?  The Bills
    run a lot and can grind it out up the middle with the best of them. 
    They ran 1 less play than the Patriots did despite having the ball for
    10 minutes less (and to me, number of plays is more important than time
    of possession - TOP is the most misunderstood stat in football and is
    looked at too much as being important in and of itself).  In fact, the
    no-huddle is a throwback to the days of "manly" football - when
    quarterbacks called their own plays and there was no situational
    substitution.
    
    I don't particularly like the run-n-shoot, but if it works and you have
    the personnel to make it work, why try to fit round pegs into square
    holes?
    
    John

>(After all being a Donk fan
>with their record inside make you lean that way).  
    
    I knew I should of made that remark about wimpy outdoor teams not being
    able to go into a dome and win. :-) :-)
    
    Scott

    re .189
    
    I'm, saying that the Oilers have won their last 3 or 4 in a row against
    the Clowns by a combined score of 142-67 or something like that.
    
    Moreover, ESPN noted that in the last 6 games against Clevescum, Moon
    is completing 67% of his passes for an average of around 310 yards a
    game with 15 TD's.
    
    So what are you saying ?
    
    Doc 

    Oilers had better find a running game (17 carries for 24 yards against
    the Steelers), or else we could have a shirt stay in the playoffs ...

    Mac -
    
    I've specifically shown my scorn for dome teams.  If I'm not mistaken,
    Miami is not a dome team.  That easy enough to understand.
    
    
    John H.
    
    There's a difference between no huddle and run and shoot.  However, the
    no huddle went down to defeat last year in the Super Bowl.  By a slim
    margin.
    
    Mac again 0-
    
    I hate artificial turf.  But if a team has to have it - let it be
    outdoors and not under a dome.
    
    Like Ive said.  I'd like to see the Super  Bowl played every year in a
    field like Lambeau in Green Bay.  You know, cold, the elements.  Real
    football weather.  Real football.  Not dome ball.  Already, this year's
    game has lost some luster due to it being indoors...
    
    JD

    And, the no-huddle losing by a point in a Super Bowl is hardly enough
    to prove it works or doesn't work.  For one game, in that particular
    circumstance, it didn't work.  If it doesn't work over a period of
    time, then it will be proven.
    
    There is more evidence to prove the run-and-shoot won't work but the
    jury is still out on that one.
    
    John

�    I've specifically shown my scorn for dome teams.  If I'm not mistaken,
�    Miami is not a dome team.  That easy enough to understand.
    
    The climate in a dome and the climate in Miami (or any of the non-snow
    belt teams) during the football season are very similar.  You don't
    have to stretch your logic very far to say that football shouldn't be
    played south of the Mason-Dixon line - and of course that would be
    silly.
    
    Shouldn't the athletes, and not the weather, determine the outcome of a
    contest?

    re:200
    
    You're right, even a semblence of a running game would solve a few
    problems.
    
    The last several opponents have settled on a deep zone to take away the
    medium-long pass play.  Against that kind of defense it the offense
    should be able to run.  If nothing else, a running game would bring up
    the defense and allow a few more big plays.
    
    What happened to the old count helmets and audible method?  The one
    where you run when the defense goes into a dime (3-2-6 or 4-1-6) 
    defense.
    
    Scott

    John -
    
    See, I don't mind the no-huddle - though I do think it shouldn't be
    used all the time.  Thats' what lost the Super Bowl for the Bills last
    year - the refusal to try to buy some time for a defense that was
    exhausted by the pounding the Giants were giving them...
    
    JD
    
    

    
    Mac -
    
    I've seen quite  a few Miami games played in driving rainstorms -
    making the field quite muddy.  Nothing like a dome.  Not at all. 
    You're reaching for straws.  How you could compare an outside, natural
    grass stadium to a dome is totally beyond me.
    
    JD

>    Shouldn't the athletes, and not the weather, determine the outcome of a
>    contest?


Mac, Mac, Mac....  You know yourself that the best teams overcome the
elements to win.  I've seen it time and time again in rugby.  When
it's rainy, both teams have an equal chance of knocking on....

Same wif football.  If a team plays in a cissy dome, they're losing something.


I agree with JD.  The Super Bowl should be rotated around all venues that
are capable of packing in a decent amount of folks (~ 75,000?).
That includes Giants Stadium, Rich Stadium, Lambeau Field (I think)....
And not just the Astrodome, the HHHDome, the JoeBlowDome, the MajorDome,
the BaggieDome......

JMHO,
'Saw

FWIW, one of my favorite, greatest champeenships games was the greenbay
dallas icebowl.....


'Saw

    
     The least that could be done for the Sissy_Domes is to plant real
    grass.  I'm sure modern tech. could come up with the required sysetms
    to make this easy.   I still say outlaw DOMES and TURFF in the NFL !
    
    Big Game

    The Super Bowl is a money making deal it pumps millions into the
    economy of the host city. It will never be played where weather will be
    a factor. This is Business and Domes are good for Business 
    
    
    JMHO
    Mike
     

      I think youze guys might want to start a different topic for domes vs
    he-man stadiums.
    
      This is the oilers topic,  and there ain't much to discuss here since
    moon stunk up the field more than any other qb this weekend.
    
    	Tim

    Thats Tough Tim....  You're one COLD dude !!
    
    Big Game

      Hey,  its about time other qbs get the blows when its desereved. 
    Didn't the almighty Jim Kelly get picked 4x by the patsies?
    
    	Tj

    re: .200
    
    >Oilers had better find a running game (17 carries for 24 yards against
    >the Steelers), or else we could have a shirt stay in the playoffs ...
    
    Dork is already making excuses and the playoffs haven't even started.
    I guess he's safe though... he'll have about 20 or 30 of "his" teams
    in the playoffs this year...  Like Washington...  DrM, how is it that
    you came to be a 'skins fan...  (My guess of his thinking...  Isiah
    Thomas should be a senator...  senators work in Washington...  Hey,
    I'm a 'skins fan... Now, how you became a Pistons fan, I have no
    clue!)  I'm sure the rest of your justifications for team support
    are similar...

    When the Oilers had a solid running game, they were blowing teams out. 
    As the running game has disappeared, so has the margin of victory. 
    They need to get back to that balanced attack.
    
    I'm not talking about 40 carries/game.  Just a few trap blocks now and
    then to knock a pass rusher on his butt and teach him some respect. 
    Pulling the short zone in tighter wouldn't hurt either.  If you give
    those WR time to find the seams in the zone, sooner or later they'll
    find them.
    
    Defenses have found out the real danger of the Run & Shoot is the
    consistant 20 yd. completion, and have adjusted the defense to
    concentrate on stopping that.  It's time for the Oiler to work on the
    holes created by the adjustment.  They've found 1 - the short pass. 
    But the run is being ignored.
    
    Scott
    
    P.S.  To bad Pilly doesn't use a R&S.  Pre-injury Cunningham would seem
    to be a perfect fit for the offense.  Even Elway would be interesting.

I doubt that Random would be a good R&S QB. The R&S requires a quick read on the
defense and the ability to get rid of the ball to the right receiver very 
quickly. Random has never been known for his ability to read defenses and deliver
the quick pass. His forte is buying time with his scrambling and allowing his
receivers to improvise based on the defense having to respect his running 
ability.

Montana would have been a great R&S qb (the 49ers offense isn't that removed
from the original R&S Doc mentioned), Marino mihgt have been a good R&S except
his mobility would have limited the roll out options the R&S relies a lot on.

One college QB that I think would be perfect for a R&S is Maddox out of UCLA.
He's got decent mobility and great read time. plus he delivers his balls on
target....


Metz

    Metz...  I agree,  Marino would be a great R&S QB.  Elway dosen't get
    the quick read to pull off an R&S game plan.  I think Kelly might do
    well too.
    
    Big Game

    	Kelly *did* do well running the R&S for the Houston Gamblers
    in the old USFL.
    
    				/Don

    
     I know, Slasher...  But that wasn't real football.  everyone whos
    anyone knows that..   ;^)
    
    Big Game

    re .201
    
    JD, I'm of a different bent. If you play outside there is NO as in ZERO
    reason for you to play on turf. That crap will shorten your career.
    
    And at least dome teams have an excuse for FAUX grass ....
    
    DrM
    
    p.s. JD have you ever played much football outside ?

    re .206

    JD, Miami played the Steelers a couple of years ago in Joe Robbie and
    was kicking butt.

    Then the skies opened, and 14 inches of rain later, the Steelers had
    scored 34 straight points ...

    Miami is perceived, with good reason as a sunshine, warm weather team.
    To go up there and beat the Bears in cold, snowy, and windy Soliders
    Field was an accomplishment you caint diminish.

    re Paul The Small

    Nice dodge. After getting toasted, you managed not to even mention the
    Browns in the same sentence as the Oilers.

    At least you're learning some respect !

    Oh, and thanks for acknowledging the Oilers' certain playoff spot !

    Doc

    
    I think football should be played outdoors because some
    unpredictability to the conditions, requiring adjustments, is good.
    However, football was not meant to be played in the northern climes
    in LATE JANUARY!  That's ridiculous, and that's why the Super Bowl
    is played under fair, warm-weather conditions (even the dates of
    the championship games push the boundaries of common sense).  If
    football was only supposed to be a test of the limits of man's 
    endurance to absurd surroundings, they could play the thing in 
    Antarctica, I guess.  Some of us would still like to see a
    demonstration of *football* skills, not survival skills, though.
                                                     
    glenn
    

       As any AFC East fan can tell you, the Fish almost never come up and play
    their division rivals after the middle of October. The schedule maker
    obviously screwed up big time putting them in Chicago in the middle of
    Nov. Shula probably had the guy fired.
                                     Denny

    re .215
    
    Metz, Cunningham (I like the "Random" tag :-) has made big strides in
    reading defenses over the last few years, and you can't throw for 60%
    and 3,700+ yards on pure physical ability. He would be pretty tough in
    the run and shoot. Montana, I agree with. In fact, SF's offense has
    many R&S elements in it. I have my doubts about Elway, but Marino can
    do it. Mobility per se is a little overrated in the R&S. If a QB can
    throw decently from a non-staionary position, then he'd be ok. Jay
    Schroeder could NOT play in a R&S IMO.
    
    Kirk that was a great note. The R&S isn't a bombs-away offense, it is
    ball-control passing. It makes its living in the 14-20 yard range.
    Defenses are using 5 and 6 defenders in a modified prevent to stop that
    pass, and give Moon the 5-8 yard passes, thus forcing the Oilers to
    execute 5 or 6 in a row to move effectively (in theory).
    
    The solution is simple. Pinkett and White have to start running through
    the soft holes in that kind of D, and keep churning out 4-6 yards a
    pop. And Moon has to had it off more often. 
    
    I would love to see the Oilers just spend part of the first quarter
    running the ball. Munchak, Mathews et al are all excellent run
    blockers, but you need to get into a consistent groove (as a blocker)
    by running the ball more. Part of the blame goes to the Off. Coor., and
    part must go to the line.
    
    ==========================
    
    In the R&S book I was reading, the original set is the same, but
    instead of the two inside receivers being wideouts, they are halfbacks.
    Which means that there were a lot more reverses, traps, and modified
    sweeps in the ofense. It was fascinating.
    
    I think the next step of evolution in the R&S will be for teams to
    perhaps subsitute an inside WR for a TE like Eric Green (who has the
    speed to play the spot, and the size to dominate as a blocker as well)
    - can you see Kellen Winslow in this offense ? Or perhaps get a
    multi-purpose back with speed and toughness like Steve Sewell of
    Denver, Al Bentley of Indy, Byner, Gary Anderson (TB), or a few others.
    It would give the offense better block angles on runs, and a few extra
    wrinkles.
    
    Doc

Ethan Horton of the Raiers would be a great R&S tight end. He's a decent blocker
(nothing fantastic) but a great receiver.....

Rod Bernstein (former tight end) could be converted back to one for a R&S offense.

The oilers need to grab that rookie from the Chiefs and make him their one back
in the R&S....

Metz

    I forgot all about Bernstein and Horton, but you get my point.
    Especially Bernstein. 
    
    As for Harvey Williams of KC (who used to play high school ball in
    Hempstead, TX. - about 100 miles NW of Houston) ? Forget it. If KC
    trades him, they need to be shot. He's going to be hell on wheels.
    
    Doc

    I am not familiar with the history of the R&S, but a while back I was
    thinking that the offense could use some big recievers in the inside
    slots.  Someone like a Andre Reed or Carmichel (Eagles) or Kellen
    Winslow.
    
    The outside WR only requirements are hands, speed, and decision making.
    In the NFL, that is easy to come by in the late draft rounds with small
    recievers.  But if the inside WR are to block occasionally, size is
    important.  Especially for a balenced attack (running) team like
    Detroit.
    
    The original R&S is starting to sound a little like the base O used by
    Washington (2 TE).
    
    Scott

    Re Doc -
    
    I've only played football outside.  I always preferred playing in the
    rain, the snow and the mud.  Did play on turf at NU (intramurals) -
    only time that was fun was in the rain - main could you slide....
    
    JD

>    I've only played football outside.  I always preferred playing in the
>    rain, the snow and the mud.  Did play on turf at NU (intramurals) -
>    only time that was fun was in the rain - main could you slide....
    
I've played rugby in the heat, in the rain, in TORRENTIAL DOWNPOURS,
in the mud, in the cold mud of February (that's the WORST), in the
snow, and in bitter cold both wet and dry.

My favorite has to be the warm rains in the early fall season that
make mud bowls.  Except that the mud gets in your eyes and you can't
really wipe it out, it's the most fun.

Next favorite is a regular cool dry day.

hate most?  Heat and humidity....


Just my 2�


'Saw

    Well our last three games in Woburn (flag league - extremely physical)
    have been :
    
    Sunday 11/10 - Cloudy, temp 35, wind chill in the teens - at best (game
    time was 9:30am)
    
    Sunady 11/17 - Sunny, field even muddier than week before. temp was
    around 40-45, wind chill in the low 30's at best. (GT was 1pm)
    
    Sunday 11/24 - Couldy, raining, field was a friggin' quag. Looked like
    the Mud Football championships. Temp was in low 40's.
    
    Had a blast !

    re Kirk
    
    FWIW, taht's why I like Washington. Gibbs' offense allows him to either
    pound you dizzy (Riggins/Rodgers/Riggs), or they can pass you silly. In
    1981 (?) The Skins led the league in rushing. In 1988 Doug Williams an
    Rypian combined to lead the NFL in passing yardage.
    
    And of course, you can always ask MrT's Falcons how balanced Wash. is.

    re .229
    
    BTW, the first two weeks, we had a crosswind (sort of) of 10-20mph for good
    measure !                                                            

�(flag league - extremely physical)
    
    HAHAHAHA!!  Good one Doc!! I'm ROOOLLLLLIIIINNNNGGGG

    
    re: .232
    
    Hey, watch it... I've heard doc's come out of every game with a 
    pulled groin or other related injury.

    re.233
    
    Who's groin did he pull??????
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

Hey, Mac, I hear they're starting a flag rugby league that's even
more physical than regular rugby...  Wanna join?


Jake....shame on you!  8^)

    >And of course, you can always MrT's Falcons how balanced Wash. is.
    
    Good enough to be the top team in the league.
    
    Meanwhile, Worn Moon - only two months ago hailed as the game's 
    premier QB - has come outta the closet, mascara and lipstick smeared,
    exposed as heavily made up in dastistickal exageration, has lost a 
    spike, snagged his hose, and is stumbling high-fashion style with as
    many INTs as TDs.  He only threw 46 times last night, but managed to
    rack up 246 useless yards (i.e., "useless" here implying 0 TDs).
    
    I ain't seen so many erthrows and bouncerand fumbled balls since
    you-know-who had all that trouble pying 2B for the Dodgers.
    
    MrT

    
     Great game last night !!!  Two awesome defenses on the same field 
    and they both played well.  I don't know if it's the man from MAC
    or the fact that the Eagles are playing great defense but I see the 
    Weather Vane atop my house turning in the direction of Penn.  I kinda
    feel sorry for the Soilers....  They have the talent and potential to
    become a real contender but just can't seem to keep it together long
    enough to finish off the year. 
    
    Big Game
    
     I'm hurting this morning just from watching the hits that the Eagles 
    were putting to the Soilers receivers.  Thats some serious defense
    being played by the Eagles....  You gotta like it !!

    Once again, the girly-mon Oilers are hit upside the haid by a manly NFC
    defense.  No flash.  No gimmicks.  Just good old fashioned ass kicking.
    
    The poor Oilers didn't know what to do out there.  Poor Worn Moon. 
    Perhaps some nice girly-mon AFC teams are around the corner for Worn
    and the boys to play with.  Them poor Dome fans didn't know what to do
    wif their hankies -- without pinball scoring, they were lost out there.
    
    The Eagles are playing serious defense.  1985 Bears type defense.  No
    one will want to play them in the playoffs.  
    
    JD

    re .234
    
    Probably the Groaner's JakE ... see Gronowski is the classic sideline
    player....talks mucho trash in this note, but you will NEVER, EVER, see
    him back it up on the field. 
    
    JaKe, you look like Eric Green gone to hell in 40 years .... ;-), but
    at least you have the cajones to show up and put your guts on the line.
    
    Pity, we'll never say that about Paul The Small (cajones') ....
    
    HAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Doc

    Got to give the Iggles their due. Hellacious hitting out there lasted
    night. I thought that the Eagles' front four would be heard from, but I
    found their secondary even more impressive.
    
    In past years, Philly would get big plays on D, but if you bought
    yourself time to throw, you could burn their secondary for big plays. 
    
    Not this year - and certainly not last night. Eric Allen played a great
    game, and Seth Joyner was HUGE. Forget Reggie White - he wasn't the
    factor that Seth was (2 fumbles forced, 1 recovered, 1 sack, 1 pick,
    and a couple of breakups) all game long.
    
    Great hitting on both sides, Eugene Seale and Otis Smith (where was
    Andre Waters ?) especially - the hit Smith laid on Drew Hill for a
    forced fumble - OUCH ! I had to cheer - that was a NFL *stick*.
    
    You can't fault the Oiler defense much, although Philly came up with a
    10 minute drive in the fourth quarter that led to the final FG. 
    
    This game was lost on two stats :
    
    1) Fumbles : Houston fumbled SIX times, and lost FIVE.
    
    Moon and Mathews blew connections twice. Allen Pinkett had the one good
    run of the night lost on a fumble (at the Eagle 35). Hill lost the ball
    after getting blasted by Smith .... I think the fact that the Oilers
    actually stayed in the game until the very last play gives you an idea
    of just how good they can be. But Five turnovers will get you beat if
    you play Framingham South - much less the Eagles.
    
    2) Rushing : Oilers - 11 carries, 21 yards.
    
    The Oilers have plain abandoned the running game. It isn't a case of
    them getting stuffed, it simply has lost all priority. And like I have
    said before, if they can't get 80 yards or so a game on the ground,
    they're inviting the good teams to play prevent and tee off on Moon. 
    
    I don't know if it's Moon and Gilbride, the offensive line, or if the
    simple fact of the matter is that Pinkett and WHite are not real R&S
    backs. Probably a combo of all of the above. 
    
    But it is a problem that had better be solved real soon, or the Oilers
    will pay a stiff price.
    
    As for Moon, it's obvious why MrT is hyperwooddiferous (tm), since this
    is the first real slump anyone has seen Moon in in a _loooong_ time.
    Well, I'd rather him get it out of his system now, instead of going
    belly up in the playoffs.
    
    Anyhow, I think we can safely give the homefield to Buffalo. The Bills
    would have to lose two of the last three, and while I see them dropping
    one to the Raiders, you have to think they will take the other two.
    
    Meanwhile Houston will try to clinch the AFC Central at home against
    the Steelers (should be a win), then go on the road to sweep the Browns
    again, then the Girly Mon Bowl :-) against the Jints, who will have
    little else to play for after losing to that "nice girly-Mon AFC team"
    from Cinncinnati that the Oilers swept this year by a combined score of 
    68-13 or something ....
    
    Doc

    re .240
    
    That is true T, "small" isn't used to describe a true man like myself.
    
    Perhaps we all should let YOU :
    
    
    That's right, Tom "Pee Wee" Shaughnessy, 
    
    talk to your soul mate Gronowski - after all, he certainly has some 
    Glanville-like characteristics (think weenie ....)
    
    Doc
                   

    
re.238
    
>    Perhaps some nice girly-mon AFC teams ...

    Like the Bengals JD ?
    
    HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
>    The Eagles are playing serious defense.  1985 Bears type defense.  No
>    one will want to play them in the playoffs.  
 
    No kidding. Bud Carson said that man for man (going 6 deep), the front 
    four of the Eagles is the best he's ever coached.
    
    And that includes the Steel Curtain of 1974-76 - the best ever in my
    book.   
    
    They are playing on another level, and is on track to be the first team
    since the 75 Vikes to rank Numero Uno against the run AND pass.
    
    Awesome.
    
    I thought that if the Niners could sneak in with a healthy Young, they
    would pose the most formidable threat to Wash. in the NFC.
    
    Add the Eagles.
    
    As for Houston, they can play championship D - that was underlined last
    night. But the offense HAS to find a running game. The Eagles had holes
    last night, but they weren't exploited.
    
    
    By the way Bob Hunt, given the way Jeff Kemp played last night, will he
    have a shot at the starting job next year ? :-)
    
    Doc

    One of the major criicisms of the R&S offense is that it turns the ball
    over alot.  Houston has been proving that lately.

    re .235
    
    You know Saw, it's obvious you've never played full-contact blocking
    leagues. I've seen a few rugby players try with your attitude.
    
    They usually go back to playing rugby because football was too rough
    for them.
    
    And before you ask, yes, I've played some rugby in college. Wasn't too
    impressed - it is a crude prototype. Football is state of the art.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Doc

�    You know Saw, it's obvious you've never played full-contact blocking
�    leagues. I've seen a few rugby players try with your attitude.
�    
�    They usually go back to playing rugby because football was too rough
�    for them.
    
    Over the years we've had several touch football players show up at
    rugby practices.  In the 12 year history of the club, only 2 have
    stuck.  One of them played rugby in college and the other was his
    younger brother.  All the rest left after a practice or two.  Both of
    the guys who stuck with rugby still play flag football and try to get
    some of their teammates out to the rugby pitch.  They are usually met
    with the "You must be crazy to play that game" response.
    
�    And before you ask, yes, I've played some rugby in college. Wasn't too
�    impressed - it is a crude prototype. Football is state of the art.
    
    Unfortunately, during the time you were in college most of the
    collegiate rugby in the US were a crude prototype - of rugby.  This has
    changed dramatically over the past few years as more and more older
    players are going back to the colleges to provide proper coaching.

    
    re: .239

    Doc, although you've tried many times to pull my groin, you have
    never been successful.  Better luck nexted time.  How is your
    girly-mon flag team doing 1-18 now?

    I can see how you claim I'm the classic sideline player.  You 
    aren't playing in the hoop league because of some girly-mon
    alleged injury, and when we've faced off in ONE-ON-ONE YOU GOT
    YOUR FACE SMASHED BOTH TIMES.  Not that I expect much more from
    a puny human.
    
    THE CLASSIC THOUGH is Doc's insistance of playing ZONE defense
    in a 3-on-3 touch football game.  I have signed statements to
    back this claim.
    

    re .246
    
    Yo, Mac ... just WHEN do you think I was in college ? :-)
    
    I'm not ancient ya know !
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. Rugby was a club sport at Rice, and they had a decent team. Don't
    know how they've fared since I've been in NE, and to be honest, don't
    care. But I might give it a try again.
    
    As for football, trust me on this Mac, some touch leagues are wimpy,
    others are brutal. (This is coming from a person who will play tackle
    games on the drop of a hat.) Flag leagues can get *highly* physical,
    especially on D and in the line. Worcester (where I played three years
    ago, and where Gronowski got run out of) and Woburn (where myself and
    at least two SPORTS noters play) can mix it up with the best of them.
    I'm looking forward to doing again next year - hopefully in better
    health !
    
    00:00

    re .247
    
    "I have signed statements ...."
    
    Like I said, a classic Cosell-type.
    
    I bet you wrote his book for him didn't you PtheS ?
    
    You know the name of it :
    
    
    
    "I never played the game"
    
    How fitting for ya.
    
    By the way, have the Browns beaten the Oilers this year ?
    
    Or last year ?
    
    Have the Browns made the playoffs yet ?
    
    
    Did they last year ?
    
    
    
    Have the Browns ever beaten the Oilers in the playoffs ?
    
    
    Have you ever gotten on the football field to back up your hype ?
    
    HINT : The same answer will apply for all of the above.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Doc

    
    
     HEY, HEY, HEY !!!
    
    
     This is the Soilers note....  Not my Girly Mon Team is Better
    Than Your Girly Mon Team...  Besides if any of you had any cojones
    you'd be playing Soccer with the real men !!!
    
    ;^)
    
    Big Game

    
    I thought the MikeJN note was for minor dirt and the Soiler note
    was for major dirt (non-content mail)!
    
    Alligator wrestling is for real men!

    As said earlier - this is the Houston Oiler note.  Let's get back to
    football.
    
    The rushing plays disappeared last night.  Though 2 yd. / carry is not
    much incentive to keep trying.  It looked like Houston tried to run
    early.  But after getting stuffed a few times, they gave up on it. 
    They need to keep trying just to keep the defense honest.  Draw plays
    don't seem to work very well in general.
    
    The Eagles defense played a great game and caused several of the
    turnoververs, but the Oiler offense self-destructed in addition.
    Unforced fumbles, dropped passes, overthrown balls.  The Oilers need to
    get back to basics of taking snaps and catching balls.
    
    Maybe Detroit has the correct direction with their recent modifications
    to the O.  They are doing as well with less talent.  They certainly
    have a balenced attack.
    
    Scott

Yeah, I concur with Mr. Kirkman.

Let's keep this note on track.  We don't need any more innuendo and the
kind of baloney that's been going on in here.

Paul and George, take it to mail if you wanna debate the merits of
gators vs Lechmeres or whatever....


Thanks,
Frank_the_testy_moderator....

    Okay:  Worn Moon, who has as many INTs as TDs, is the beneficiary
    of inflated R&G dastisticks (Payola Moneycount-style), is overrated,
    and has NO business in this year's Pro Bowl.
    
    So there.
    
    MrT

    
    Worn swore at the beginning of the season he'd throw more INTs than
    TDs... we'll see in a couple of weeks if he's a man of his words.

    re: Moon
    
    This is true for any player - that his stat are a product of the system
    he is working in.  
    
    Look at Hershal Walker for example on the other end of the spectrum. 
    He was very successful both in the USFL and at Dallas.  But move to a
    system where the coach has made up his mind not to utilize the players
    talents, and his stats nosedived.  
    
    Dickerson at the Rams is another example.  Robinson may be the best
    I-formation, running game coach around.
    
    Right now the execution of the Oiler offense ishorrible.  And the play
    calling has become one-dimensional.  That's what needs to be addressed.
    
    Scott

    Wait a minute.  Walker's stats nosedived because his carries/game 
    nosedived.  On the other hand, Worn's passes on almost every down.
    It would seem then that this analogy doesn't add up.  I don't think
    there's any doubt that Moon's alleged greatness is, Payola-Moneycount-
    style, the direct result of the R+G offense.  On SportsCenter every
    Sunday they talk breathlessly of how many yards and TD throws Worn has 
    piled up that day, never mentioning his efficiency relative to other
    guys who could probably do better if *they* were throwing 60 times a
    game.
    
    MrT

    Wrong T.
    
    Moon's average pass per attempt and completion are among the top QB's
    in the league, and have been for the past 3-4 years. 
    
    1) Those stats are irrelevant to the number of attempts and completions
    a QB throws for.
    
    2) Moon has only been in a R&S for two years - the great numbers he ahs
    racked up are at least 4 years consecutive.
    
    3) When Moon does pass on every down against nickle and dime packages,
    it is a tribute to his all-world skills taht he can still generate
    points and wins.
    
    Doc 

    re: T
    
    My reference to Walker and Dickerson were simply to put the shoe on the
    other foot.  
    
    For years, the great RB operate in offenses that give the ball to them
    30-40 times a game.  To me that means inflated rushing yard stats.  Yet
    when Houston allows Moon to thrown that many passes/game everyone
    screams 'inflated stats'.  I'm simply pointing out the ground game
    bias.
    
    Also, as the number of attempts increases isn't the effectiveness 
    supposed to decrease?  Effectiveness as meassured by yard/carry,
    completions/attempt, or yard/attempt.  Moon's stats hold up reasonbly
    well even allowing for the increased attempts.
    
    The problem right now is that Moon is attempting to carry the offense
    like Earl Campbell carried it in the past.  We are seeing about the
    same effectiveness.  
    
    Houston needs something to force the defenses out the semi-prevent they
    have been using (effectively) lately.  When a defense focusess on
    stopping 1 specific aspect of the offense, they usually can.  A more
    diverse offense would keep the defense off balence.
    
    
    Scott

    re .272
    
    A most excellent note.
    
    MrT started his "inflated stat" kick last year when Moon shelled the
    best secondary in football (which also had the top sack artist in the
    league in Derrick Thomas) for a near record 527 yards.
    
    T of course assumed that Moon must have had a 40-75 passing line.
    
    He got real quiet when the stats showed that Moon was actually 27-45
    (rather mudane), which means that he averaged 20 yards a completion.
    
    Anyhow, here's a telling stat about Houston.
    
    They are a MINUS ELEVEN in turnovers in the last three weeks. Minus
    five for the seaosn now.
    
    You don't win championships playing like that.
    
    Doc 
    

                      
>    They are a MINUS ELEVEN in turnovers in the last three weeks. Minus
>    five for the seaosn now.
    
>    You don't win championships playing like that.
 
    Minus eleven over three weeks is ridiculous, but a minus on the
    season is to be expected with the run-and-shoot.  I think the R-n-S
    can work, but it's got to be able to overcome the expected turnovers
    against good defenses, in the regular season as well as the playoffs 
    (minus five isn't that bad, really).  Turnovers are part-and-parcel 
    of the system, and shouldn't be used as an excuse.
    
    On the other side of the coin, while everyone is fawning over their
    newfound love, the Philadelphia Eagles, if 13-7 is all the better
    they can do offensively with a plus five in the turnover department, 
    they're headed for another first round bust if their opponent doesn't 
    cough it up.  Hard-hitting defense causes turnovers, but there's also
    too much luck involved in creating turnovers to rely on them game
    by game...
    
    glenn
    

    Just for reference, what was the give-away/take-away for last years
    Oilers?  The stats for the Lions would be informative also.
    
    Just looking for some indication whether the turnovers are a normal
    byproduct of the R&S or just bad play by Houston.
    
    Scott

    
    
    You can't blam WORN Moon for the minus turnover ratio... he's only
    thrown 19 INTs this year.  Heck, he leads the league.  I knew he'd
    lead the league in something.

    Like TD passes and passing yardage ?
    
    By the way, what has Bernie ever led the league in ?
    
    Besides AFC title game gag jobs ?

    Doc -
    
    Bernie Kosar has led the league in passing efficiency, I believe.  IN
    fact, if folks good get beyond the stupid homophobia that they have
    against Bernie (who, by all counts is straighter than a Kansas
    highway), they'd see a damn good QB.  
    
    And Doc - at least Bernie gotten his team to the AFC title game.
    
    Glenn -
    
    I don't think the Eagles are folks new-found love.  Defense wins
    championships.  Period.  Look no further than last year's Giants and
    the 85 Bears.  
    
    JD

    Glenn, I don't have exact figures, but the Oilers were almost certainly
    in the plus catagory last year.
    
    And of the five turnovers last Monday, two were fumbled snaps by Moon.
    (although Matthews bears partial blame on at least one of them.)
    Another was a stip of Allen Pinkett when he was carrying the football
    like a loaf of bread. Right now, I think it is bad play more than
    anything else.
    
    Well the Oilers are favored by 11 against the Steelers this Sunday.
    Hope they take Allen Pinkett's words to heart,
    
    "There's always a lack of a running game when you don't run."
    
    It's that simple.
    
    Doc

    The old saw says that Defense wins chapionships, but you can't win if
    you can't score.

    The saw about defense wins championships might have a rough time of it
    this year.  The 2 teams favored to meet in the SB both have offensive
    units rated better than their defensive unit.
    
    Balence wins championships.  It's just that way back when, when the saw
    gained popularity, offenses recieved more attention.  NY being the 1st
    to build a good defense didn't hurt either.  (Media focus)
    
    Scott

    
    I'm not saying that the R-n-S can't finish positive in the turnover
    category over the short span of one season, Doc.  It only stands
    to reason, though, that a system featuring small, fast receivers
    with the ball in the air all the time will be more susceptible to 
    turnovers than a more balanced offense.  If the R-n-S guys are 
    betting otherwise, in the long haul they'll lose.  They'll have to 
    overcome the turnover disadvantage or at least keep it to a minimum
    to win...
    
    glenn
    

    I think the big unanswered question Glenn is not the interceptions in
    the R&S - that is a function of the QB-WR relationship. The X-factor is
    the fumbles after the catch. That is where Houston has had troubles
    against Cleveland and Philly. I don't know how big of a trend it is,
    but we ought to know soon.
    
    Doc

From what I've seen, the WR on Houston are kinda small.

Maybe get them to bulk up a bit -or- try to get a couple guys that are
a little bit bigger to sub in.....

Just a thought.....

'saw

    Doc, as regards turnovers in the R&S, there are no unanswered
    questions.  The R&S has been shown to be historically turnover prone.

>From what I've seen, the WR on Houston are kinda small.
    
    Even smaller now after Monday night.  Most of them lost their heads due
    to some awsome Philly DB hits.
    
    	--dan'l

    The small receiver part of the Run and Shoot will be the first thing to
    change - they will have to incorporate either the tight end into the
    offense - or some large receiver.  Linebackers and defensive backs are
    getting BIGGER - receivers take a bigger pounding then ever before.
    
    JD

    When was the last time the Houston Oilers ever won an AFC Central
    Division Championship?
    
    
    December 8, 1991

    
>    When was the last time the Houston Oilers ever won an AFC Central
>    Division Championship?
    
    Hip hip hooray!  One rathole down, 2,453,387 to go!
    
    glenn
    

    re: -< Have the Browns ever won an AFC championship? >-
    
     No,  And they won't this year either.....   The Donks pound the
    Clowns and Wrong Way Jay chokes again !!
    
    AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH...  It was a great birthday !!!
    
    Bigf GAme

    Very nice to see the running game return (98 yd.)  Also nice to see the
    Oilers win the division outright, and not back into it.  I didn't get
    to see the game, so only had those stats from the network.
    
    Maybe this will get the team back on track.  Next is getting the 1st
    round bye.
    
    Scott

    Nice to see that the Oilers' finally heeded Pinkett's advice. 
    
    The Oilers rode Pinkett's rushing (98 yards on 16 carries, including a
    42 yard run, and 2 TD's) and Moon's 206 yards to a 31-6 win. The Oiler
    defense was it's usual superb self. Al Smith returned a Neil O'Donnell
    fumble 50 yards for a TD.
    
    It is the first post-merger division title for Houston, as they finally
    showed a balanced offense featuring Pinkett's slashing runs. 
    
    Warren Moon's 206 yards and a TD put him over 4,000 yards for the
    second consecutive year. 
    
    He is the first QB not named Dan to throw for 4,000 yards more than
    once ... :-) Marino and Fouts are the only other multimembers of the
    4,000 yard club.
    
    Doc

    Either of the dans ever do it two years in a row ???
    
    Fouts was one of the Best !!
    
    Big GAme
    
    

    Both did.
    
    Marino did it 2 or three years in a row. Fouts did in 1980-81 I think.
    
    Moon joins the select company. Now let's hope he enjoys more SB success
    than the other two.

      Enjoys more SB success than the 2 DAns?   Heck, he has to get there
    1st,  and I don't think this will be it.  Moon is gettin' old to,  and
    he will get hurt before he gets to the bowl.
    
      Fouts never got there,  and Marino,  well Marino needs a defense in
    order to have any chance.
    
    	Tim

    Too bad for old Dan Fouts...  The guy was a class act and the
    premier passer of his time.  If only Correl would have pulled
    his head out of his you know what and got the man a defense.
    Hope he make the HOF !!
    
    Big Game

    
    Are we to judge QBs on the merit of passing yards amassed over a
    season?  Does this mean we exclude the fack that Moon leads the 
    league in INTs...  if so, I guess it means that Doug Flutie is
    the #1 QB on the continent this year.  I always knew Doug was
    better than Worn.

    Does this mean we exclude that fack that Bernie throws the shorts
    wimpest passes in the world? 

    I think we judge QB's by their record  (win/loss)  WHich means
    that Mark Ripien is the best followed closely by Kelly, Elway,
    Moon...  et al
    
    Big Game

    
>    Hope Houston, LA and K.C.
>    lose the rest of their games... Luckaolo too for that matter.
    
    BG, forget about Luckalo, they'll sew up home field by beating the
    Colts this weekend.  (Another Sunday night barnburner).  When KC and
    the Faiders meet on the last weekend that game will probably decide 
    which of those teams gets to host a wildcard game, and probably against
    the loser of that game.  Houston's last 2 games are on the road and
    they should lose at least 1 and could very well lose both.
    
    
    Joe
    

    Does Worn Moon still have more INT's than TD's this year?  I was
    wondering cuz last night, AL Micheals told the world that the sign of a
    QB having a BAD year is when he chucks more INT's than TD's (showing a
    graphic of Boomer)....
    
    JD

    re -1
    
    Al Michaels is a real expert...
    
    

    Al Michaels shoud stick with Baseball where they care about all
    those meaningless stats because the game is so boring you have to 
    find something to entertain the fans.  I really think that John
    Madden, Bill Parcels and Tom Jackson should do MNF...
    
    Big Game

    JD Moon had more TD's than picks going into the Philly game ...
    
    

�    JD Moon 


Now there's ONE SOBERING thought.....    
    

    
    
     HA HA HA HA .....  I'm rolling `Saw....  You're too funny.
    Thanks a bunch... I really need a good laugh today.  Reading
    the `Spots topic just wasn't cutting it today !!
    
    Big Game
    
    (Except of course when I re-read my own notes !!   ;^))
    

    
>        JD Moon had more TD's than picks going into the Philly game ...
 
    Pretty sure it was even up, Doc...
    
    glenn
    

    re: Groner
    
    Houston's last 2 games are against Cleveland and the Giants.  Both
    teams are out of the playoffs, and (I believe) have a losing record. 
    Both teams are in the midst of a downslide on top of that.  What makes
    you think either of those teams would be favored to win? 
    
    If you're going to predict losses like that,  the Cards beating the
    Broncos has to be in the same probubility range.
    
    Scott

    
     You mean Slim to none...  And Slim left weeks ago !!
    
     The Donks will beat up on the Cards....
    
     Donks   31
    
     Cards   13
    
    BG

    "JD Moon" - Thanks Saw. I needed that !

|    "JD Moon" - Thanks Saw. I needed that !


Well, I saw it and at first I thought of Worn Moon's body with JD's
head.  And I said "NAH"

Then I thought of JD hangin' a moon, and I said "NAH"

And then I though of JD's head on Worn Moon's body, hangin a moon,
wif these bodacious lats, and I said

	"I've got to stop doing these 'shrooms!!!!!"



'Saw

    You guys Slay me !!  Please !!
    
    BG

    It would be a step down for me to be in WOrn Moon's body.  The guy is
    built like a_emory board.  
    
    And my moon is shinier ;-0  ;-)  ;-)
    
    JD

    
    I read in yesterday's USA Today that Moon has been getting bombarded
    with racial slurs in the Astrodome and hounded by persistent drug 
    rumors in his home city of Houston, based on his recent play.  
    Especially considering that the guy has won the NFL's top award in 
    recognition of community service in addition to being one of the 
    league's top QBs over the past few years, this kind of behavior would 
    appear to fit into the "how low can you go" category...
    
    glenn
    

    glenn,
    
    	Bruce Smith has been getting hit with the same rumors and
    	racial slurs.  He gave an interview with Tom Jackson on
    	ESPN's "Sunday Night Conversation".  In it, he told about
    	the worst letter he had received.  I couldn't believe it.
    	There are some real morons out there........
    
    Claybone

    	Whenever a black player has a few bad games the drug/alcohol
    rumors invariably start flying.
    
    				/Don

    Ya, but did you see the sweat pouring out of him!!!!!!
    
    
    :^),
    
    Nelly

>    Ya, but did you see the sweat pouring out of him!!!!!!


Hey!  I *resemble* that remark!!!!!


8^)

>    	Whenever a black player has a few bad games the drug/alcohol
>    rumors invariably start flying.
>    
>    				/Don
    
    You need not qualify that with "black" player.  We've heard the same
    about Montana, Kelly, and Marino in the past too.  It's only the fact
    that these allegations are coupled with racial slurs for Smith and Moon
    that make the especially bad.
    
    	--dan'l

    
     In a fairly recent series in SI on the progress or lack thereof of
    blacks in sports there was a panel discussion. One of the panelists
    was Bill Walton who said that when he was playing if a black player
    was in a slump the coach would ask Walton if he knew if the guy had
    a drug problem but if it was a white player the coach would ask
    Walton if the guy had familial problems.
    
     As far as the racial slurs go, the sad fact is that this news would
    surprise very few black people. Most of us, if not all of us, have had
    our own brushes with racism.

    re .323
    
    I thought of Bill Walton's article immeadiately as well. Sick isn't 
    it ? But no, I'm not suprised.
    
    Dan Pastorini used to toss sportswriters out of rooms (literally !
    Which isn't necessarily a bad mark in my book), smash up boats and
    cars, etc, but was of course forgiven. Ken Stabler played a big game
    either bombed, or staggering with the resultant hangover (can't
    remember which). Never heard a real peep out of the fanhood either ...
    
    The worst one I heard was the rotten watermelon that was UPS'ed to Doug
    Williams after a bad playoff game back in his Tampa Bay days ... and my
    dad can remember stuff that used to be said back during James Harris'
    days as the Rams #1 man that will still send his B.P. through the roof.
    
    Doc

    RE: .298 FSOA::HEANEY
    
    Maybe you better check the stats... Moon has a lower YDs Gained
    per completion than Kosar has... Looks to me like either:
    
    	1) Moon throws the short wimpy passes
    	2) Houston receivers are inferior to the Browns receivers
    	3) Both 1 and 2.

    Groaner...  You never give it up do ya !!   A True Blue (or is that
    brown) Fan, you are !!
    
    BG

    re: 325
    
    There is a difference between taking what the defense gives you, and
    basing the game plan on short passes.
    
    It has been fairly well documented that the defenses are giving the
    short pass to Houston.  And that Moon is frustrated by the situation.
    
    Scott
    
    P.S. Are all of your notes intented to raise someones blood pressure?

    .325
    
    This is typical of you if the Brown were in first and won the division
    personal stats would not matter, but seeing that they are not you go to
    the only personal stat that you can push. Bernie Kosar is a very good
    QB probably smarter than most BUT he throws very low risk passes many
    times this year I have seen dump the pass off to the RB and he makes
    alot out of the play which helps Bernies stats.
    
    Moon palys a different system and I think you are comparing apples to
    oranges. 
    
    Houston receivers are far better than the Browns. Oh by the way were
    has the Triller Jackson been for most of this year? I remember Hal
    talking this guy up as the next Lynn Swann?
    
    Mike
    

    I wonder what the effect on Moon's yards/completion would be if some of
    those INTS were completions?  My guess is that they would go up.

    I'm looking for game summary/individual stats. from the
    Monday Dec. 2 game Philly at Houston. Can anyone help?
    
    Michael

    re .327
    
    Kirkman, Gronowski usually reaches for the silly, tacky, or tasteless
    when is has nothing else. It's part of that self-esteem problem of
    his.
    
    When is the last time he has added anything of value to a football (or
    any sport) discussion ?
    
    However Xmas is a time for miracles ...
    
    Doc

    BTW, what does it say for Cleveland when their most dangerous receiver
    is that Jerry Rice wannabe Leroy Hoard ?
    
    Ha.

    Hey !!
    
     I think you guys are being a bit hard on Paul...  Although his
    selection of football teams leaves much to be desired he does
    add a dimension to this conference that I for one would miss if
    he were to leave us.  Give the guy a break !
    
    BG

    re; .332,
    
    I'm having trouble understanding your point regarding Leroy Hoard...?
    
    Could you clarify?
    
    Why have you tabbed him a Jerry Rice wannabe?  A Roger Craig wannabe,
    maybe....but Jerry Rice??  I don't understand the relation.
    
    
    Nelly

    re: .333
    
    All Paul's recent notes seemed to designed to cause trouble, IMHO.  So
    I thought I would send some of it back.  Guess I forgot the smiles.  I
    never was that great this the written or spoken word.
    
    Scott
    
    P.S. Should I reload now?   8-)

    
    A few comments... this is like a sports tavern to me... I don't
    take much in here seriously and I don't think others should
    either.  
    
    How do you compare QBs?  Is there a good way?  Maybe, maybe not.
    It just seems that some people think there are hard and fast 
    ways to prove these things... I don't.  Discussions about sports
    are like discussions about religion... no one is right - everyone
    is right.  Yes, sometimes I put notes in here to ruffle feathers -
    I know others do to, but they won't admit it.  Its all part of the
    fun.  
    
    As far as Hoard goes... say what you want... from falling asleep in
    meetings and not remembering plays last year, Hoard has turned into
    a VERY steady performer... Is he a Pro Bowl player?  Not right now,
    but he does have the potential.  He is a solid runner and as good
    of a receiver out of the backfield as any.  (Of course, this is
    only my opinion and there is no way to prove any of it concretely!)

    Notes to ruffle is one thing - you cross the line. I may be the only
    one to say it publically, but you do, and you might try a course in
    Good Taste 101 over the Xmas holidays ....

    BTW .336 wasn't a bad note .... and now back to football ....

    
     Come on Doc...  Paul is no worse than many of us when it comes
    to Ruffling notes (Myself included)  Personally, I look forward 
    to notes in that vane...  Their fun !!
    
    IMHO
    
    BG

    Oilers play Cleveland Sunday. Big game for Houston - one they should
    win, yet will provide a pretty severe test. If Houston wins their last
    two, or wins one game, while Denver loses one, they get the 1st round
    bye, and host the next playoff game. They could use that week off to
    let people heal (Dishman, Williams, Childress, Givens). Otherwise, it
    could be trouble. 
    
    Here's hoping that after their renewed success at running the ball,
    that they don't lose it in a week's time.
    
    Doc 

    
     Never thought I'd be saying this but.........
    
    
    
    
    		G O    B R O W N S !!!!!!!!!!!
    
    		G O    B R O W N S !!!!!!!!!!!
    
    		G O    B R O W N S !!!!!!!!!!!
    
    		G O    B R O W N S !!!!!!!!!!!
    
    BG

    
    
    DAWGS will DUMP the OILERS!   BANK ON IT!
    

      Oiler renewed running game?   Didn't they only have 1 game in the
    last 6 in which they had a good running attack?  And of course it was
    against the hapless sqeelers!
    
      I think the spots will stop that this weekend.  They stopped Denvers, 
    and Denver does have a decent running attack.....
    
      I'm with you BG,  I don't care for the spots,  but I would like them
    to win one for the donks sake!
    
    	Tim

    
>    Oiler renewed running game?   Didn't they only have 1 game in the
>    last 6 in which they had a good running attack?  And of course it was
>    against the hapless sqeelers!
     
    Yeah, something like a whopping 91 yards in a blowout victory. 
    Hardly an affirmation of anything...
    
    glenn
    

    
    INT/TD watch... still tied at 20-20... Worn Moon... what a goon!

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but in every win by a touchdown or more
    Houston has 100 yd. + rushing.  That includes the win over the
    Steelers (Pinkett 98, White 21).
    
    Houston needs a balanced attack.  The pro-Houston camp is simply 
    applauding the fact that Houston appears to realizes this.
    
    Scott

    
     News Flash:
    
    	`Spots Slam Soilers... Moon throws 3 int's... Soilers have 37 yds
    	total offense !!
    
    Film at 11:00
    
    BG

    It is a common misconception that teams win by running.  Saying, for
    example, that in every win by a touchdown or more Houston has 100 yds +
    rushing can lead to the erroneous conclusion that Houston won because
    they had a good running game.  The more correct conclusion is that they
    got ahead and then racked up big rushing stats in an attempt to kill
    the clock.  Usually, successful teams have great running stats because
    they get ahead and run a lot.
    
    John

    Whatever pressure remains for Houston, as far as playoff jockeying,
    falls squarely on themselves.  They can't count on Denver loosing
    either of the next 2.  I have to admit the Oilers had me going 
    there in the early stages of the season but now they look like the
    champs of a div that can barely reach .500 combined. 
    A Cleveland win shouldn't surprise anyone.
    
    BoB 
    

    re .344
    
    Oilers rushed for 117 yards for an average of almost 6 yards a carry.

    C L E V E L A N D     C L E V E L A N D     C L E V E L A N D 
    
    
    BG

    re: John
    
    I realize that for most teams when they, big rushing yardage is a
    result of the the O sitting on the ball and killing the clock.
    
    I don't that is the case with the Oilers.  
    1) Several of the big yardage games were the result of a very
    successful ground game, e.g. 6-7 yard/carry for the game.
    2) Houston's version of the R&S is a passing game.  The ground game is
    important to keep the D off balance as much as to actually gain
    yardage.  The success of the O is measured in total yards, not rushing
    yards.
    3) Houston has a bad tendency to run a few times early in the game,
    then not call another running play for an entire quarter or half. 
    Particularly if the 1st few runs are stuffed.  IMHO, this is simple
    lack of staying with the game plan.
    
    For most teams, I agree with you.
    
    Scott

    Silence...

    re: 353
    
    They won.  It was outside.  It was cold, snowing, and miserable.  I
    didn't see the game.  The Oilers are getting a reputation for winning
    ugly.  Need more?
    
    Scott

    Damn Soilers...  The Clowns had `em and let `em off !!
    
    Big Game

      Well for all this stuff said about wimpy indoors team (me especially
    included),  the oilers did show that they can play outside.  
    
    Then again they play in wind stadium this weekend.  I think the oilers
    can win,  but if its one of them 50mph windy days,  then they will lose
    IMO.
    
       Ick, go jints.....boy was that tough to say....
    
    	Tim

    Walt, you have me rollin'.
    
    So fellas, tell me :
    
    
    
    HAS CLEVELAND BEAT THE OILERS IN THIS DECADE ?
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    
     There is no way the the Soilers can go into Midgets stadium and
    pull out a win.  I hope it about 27 billion degrees below zero 
    with gale force winds nexted(tm) week in Jersy.....  The Jints
    have to win this game...  They're not wimpy like those Clowns 
    who throw games at the end by missing 20 yrd field goals.  The
    Midgets will crush the Soilers,  No If's, And's, Or But's about
    it.  With the upcoming loss by the Soilers combined with the 
    thrashing that the Donks will apply to the Chargers the Donks are
    assures home the bye and Home field advantage for the first week
    at least.  Go Donks !!!  Go Midget...  Crush the Happless Girly Mon
    Soilers !!
    
    BG

      Whats the deal with the last couple of replies?  Is someone bein'
    bad???

    The officials in the booth are taking a look at a few notes.  We have
    complaints about uneccessary roughness and unsportsmanlike conduct. 
    They will remain hidden pending further review.
    

    Once again the Oilers show The Right Stuff in the clutch against the
    Browns, as Warren Moon drove the Oilers 84 yards in a snowstorm to win
    it in the final two minutes.
    
    Judging by the slience of the MachoBall contingent, the Oilers
    performance (not suprising to me) went a long way towards stilling
    another R&S fable.
    
    This week they get the Giants on Saturday in the Meadowlands - probably
    the MAIN reason why JD and Saw have been soooooo quiet ... :-) The
    Oilers need to win to insure a first round bye, and host the 2nd round
    game. If they lose, San Diego must beat Denver in the season finale. 
    
    I doubt that the Giants will lay down at home, and it will be another
    good road test against a NFC team. The Oilers' ground game averaged
    about 4 a carry (19-75 yards I think) against Cleveland, but I'd like
    to see them run the ball about 22-25 times a game - at least.
    
    Should by windy and reeeel cold. 
    
    Giants weather ....
    
    Doc

    The Pro Bowl rosters were announced, and the Oilers sent SIX starters
    to the Pro Bowl - high in the league, and a team record (I think),
    eight players total.

    Here they are :

    Warren Moon - He goes as the number three QB. His fourth straight
    trip to Hawaii. Not his best season by any means, but he's 18
    completions shy of 400, has his second straight 4,000 yard season, and
    has gotten the job done in the clutch without a solid running game.

    Mike Munchack - "Munch" was picked to the all-NFL team of the 80's.
    This is his 6th or 7th trip I think. And he is a HoF-in-waiting.

    Bruce Matthews - I still think he's underrated, despite this being his
    5th trip. He starts at center this year, after making the team at guard
    last year. And he could make it at tackle too if he wanted. Incredible
    versatility.

    Haywood Jeffries - Fully coming into his own in his 5th year. He ought
    to be in the Pro Bowl for a long time, barring injury. Starter.

    William Fuller - He came over in the Jim Everett trade (thanks John R.
    !), this is his first trip. Used to be a pure rusher, and not very good 
    at that. Starter.

    Al Smith - A monster inside against the run. First trip, and will start.
    Should have been there last year.
     
    Chris Dishman - Has made conversion from trash-talker and walking
    personal-foul-waiting-to-happen into star corner. Had a great streak of
    seven games where he either forced or made turnover. First trip to Pro
    Bowl, and will be starter.

    Doc

    As one who was critical of Chris Dishman in previous versions of
    SPORTS, I have to agree 100% with Doc's comments in .366.  Used to be
    that every time I watched an Oilers' game, Dishman would commit some
    idiotic penalty or mouth off or do some stupidass thing to hurt the
    Oilers.  He's really matured this year...
    
    
    py

     Seems to me that Dishman was riden hard by some Play by Play guys
    last year.  Wonder if that had something to do with his sudden turn
    to maturity...  I couldn't beleive some of the cheep shots he put
    on folks...  Glad to see that he's turned it around.
    
    BG

    re. 366
    
    The great thing about Fuller was he was a throw in for Everett at the
    time the Rams didn't think much of him. Look at the Rams D..
    
    Bruce Matthews is one of the best linemen to play the game.
    
    JHMO
    Mike
    

    re Hunter
    
    Moon and some of the other vets had something to do with it too. I
    remember one game against the Chargers (Glanville was still coach)
    where Dishman picked up a classic sillyassed P.F. on a 3rd and 25 play
    that went incomplete. 
    
    Next play Tolliver hit Miller for a 75 yard TD. 
    
    You could see Moon climb all over Dishman for that one.
    
    And give a big assist to Pardee and his staff. I'm not sure if Dishman
    would have grew up as fast if Glanville had stayed in town.
    
    re Matthews
    
    I knew he was good. But I didn't know how good until last year. The
    Oilers had to beat the Steelers to make the playoffs, and Pardee had
    Matthews move from tackle to center (which Bruce hates to play) in
    place of the now departed Jay Pennison. The idea was to improve the
    running game, since Cody Carlson started for Moon.
    
    Matthews went against Gearld Williams (who was playing NT better than
    almost anyone in the league last year), and utterly *demolished* him. I
    mean he manhandled the guy, ate him up and spit him out. White rushed
    for over 100 yards, and the Oilers romped 34-14.
    
    Doc

    	Giants will win, but so will the Chargers giving the Oilers
    a first round bye.
    
    				/Don

    re .369
    
    Trust me, the Oilers and us didn't think too much of Fuller either. He
    was a pass rushing specialist, but didn't really make a big impact. You
    have to believe that the presence of Sean Jones and Lee Williams really
    helped. 

    Slasher,
    
     I hope your prediction about the Midgets is true...  However,
    If the Soilers should happen to lose this game in N.J. you can 
    bet that the Broncos will pull out all the stops in S.D..  In all
    seriousness,  I can't see an S.D. win against the Broncos if the
    Spector of a first round bye is still on the line after Saturday.
    The Broncos have come along way this year.  And, when they needed to,
    have won the big games.
    
     You know,  I read in the local rag that the Broncos have played
    a tougher schedule this year than Luckaolo base on current season
    winning percentages.  Luckaolo competition as played something
    like .389 football while the Broncos competition is somewhere in
    the mid .400's.  The Soilers competition has been the toughest of 
    the three Div. winners at (and I do remember this one, I beleive)
    .489.  Clearly,  The Donks can play with the best.  I only mention
    this because of all of the Anti-Donks who continue to Yap about 
    the Donks playing a lasted(tm) place schedule.
    
     Look for a Denver loss if there is nothing on the line (1st round
    bye).  Dan Revees is no fool,  if the Donks gain nothing by winning,
    Elway and the rest of the beat up player will rest.  On the other 
    hand,  if the Soilers lose to the Midgets,  look for the Broncos to 
    play this as a playoff game and blow S.D. out of Jack Murphy Stadium
    to close out an awesome season.
    
    Go Donks,
    
    Big GAme

    >      Clearly,  The Donks can play with the best.


	Denver has played New England twice, Phoenix, Minnesota, Houston,
	Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, the Raiders twice, K.C. twice,
	Seattle twice, and San Diego.

	Of those, only Houston, the Raiders, and Kansas City are making
	the playoffs, and only Houston can (IMO) be classified among the
	best.  They were blown out by Houston, lost twice to the Raiders,
	and won twice vs KC (winning on the road on a disputed no-call).

	I don't think it is clear that the Donks have even played the best,
	to say nothing about playing at their level.  They are a good team,
	and may be better than that, but they'll have to prove it when they
	play teams that are at the top of the league standings.  In my mind,
	two wins against a very up-and-down Kansas City team is not proof.
	In my mind, the Chiefs performance last week against SF reflects
	pretty accurately that are a just-above-average team.

    	Big Game, I hope Houston plays the Donkeys in the playoffs so's
    they cain thrash them soundly again.
    
    				/Don

    I read that Ray Childress made the Pro Bowl.
    
    mike
    

    Slasher...
    
    Won't happen...  Worn Spoon is washed up and Denver won't be 
    giving this one away at the first turn.  Look for the Donks
    (if we play the Soilers) to put a major hurt on Worn and is 
    flea circus of so called receivers.  With no running game to 
    speak of the Soilers will be throughly dominated by the Mighty
    Donks
    
    BG

Didn't Ray Childress get hurt in the Browns game?  What's his status?

Jerry

    Childress cracked a couple of ribs, and is doubtful for the Giants ...

    Ho ho ho boy it was really fun watching Worn & Co. in "action" this
    weekend.  Main!  When these guys choke they dilate the gullet so big
    that it'd make a veteran sword swallower blush.  Cain't wait to see
    Mr. Overrated doing his gag-job on the cold turf somewhere next week.
    
    All respect for the Toilers was lost when they fired one very fine
    main in Jerry Glanville.  
    
    MrT

    Paul MaGuire had a great line during this game.  When the Oiler offense
    was having its problems with the cold and wind, MaGuire said "If your
    offense can't perform in these conditions, you get a new offense!"
    
    Joe

    The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the Houston defense.  They
    couldn't stop the Giant's ground attack.

      I think they should get a new coach and stadium to play in;)

    I beleive you're right, Tim...  No teams that play inside 
    "Girly Mon Football" are ever gonna do anything worth mention !
    
    BG

    Well I'm back Doc - and though its old news, the pansies from Houston
    got beat by the Giants.  Geez, too bad the Oilers aren't in the NFC
    East - then the Cards wouldn't be in the cellar.  If the Oilers are one
    of the 'cream of the crop' of the AFC - the division is in trouble.
    
    They did 'totally dominate' the pathetic Jets yesterday, didn't they...
    
    JD

    The Jets had what, about 20 chances to win this one in the 2nd half?
    
    Can't believe O'Brien threw that int early in the 3rd quarter.  The
    Jets got some bad spots down near the goal line when they were stopped
    on 4th down in the 4th quarter.  Toon was definitely held later in the
    game on a missed 4th down pass.  And not that it matters, but where in
    the friggin' hell did they see offensive interference on Toon on that
    pass he almost caught right near the end of the game?!?!?  If Toon
    would've caught that one, that call would've had to go down as one of
    the all-time worst calls in NFL history.
    
    
    Joe

    Yeah, there were some pretty bad calls in the Oilers Jets game too. 
    There was definite holding on Toon that wasn't called.  Crucial.  And
    the offensive pass interference...well, he may have pushed off with his
    left hand, but it certainly didn't affect the defender.
    
    But the Jets slit their own throats.  I don't feel half as sorry for
    them as I do the Saints who were basically put out of the game by poor
    officiating.  
    
    	--dan'l

      I bet Jo* is feeling a little "rough" today;^)
    
    	Tim

If the Jests had a REAL QB they might have won the game.

And where were all those All World WRs Dan used to brag about????


'Saw

        Yeah Toon caught his first TD pass since Sept. 1990!!
                                    Denny

    Boy oh boy did the Jets get screwed on that INT call.  Didn't even
    review it!
    
    MrT

    Super performance by the cheaty Soilers.  Let's give them a reel
    big hand!
    
    MrT

    
    Day One.

    What's this a watch for? Houston lost,the defense choked. Didn't
    see the drive, but I guess Elway and company deserved it.  Check
    with Doc tomorrow when he's off vacation...

    
    Sure is nice to see Elway "do it" to someone else for a change.   
    Gotta wonder now, with all these playoff appearances by the Oilers of 
    late, never getting past the divisional playoffs.. and all, who's 
    the biggest choke team around?   
    
    Oilers?  I thought so!   
    

    I'd say it a Pick 'em bet on that one !!
    
    Between the Clowns and Soilers that is !!
    
    BG

    
    
    Day Three.

    Hi there.
    
    My name is George (Doc to some), and I'm an Oiler fan.
    
    It started when I got to Houston in 1978. You know, Earl Campbell, Love
    Ya Blue, Pastorini, et al
    
    Yeah, we lost a couple of AFC title games, but it was to one of the
    greta teams in NFL history. Fact is, the Oilers might have been the 2nd
    best team in the league at the time.
    
    Then there were the dry years, Ed Biles, Chuck Studley. And then Hugh
    Campbell came, and brought a QB named Moon.
    
    Campbell didn't stick around, and then Jerry Glanville showed up. The
    talent matured, and the team begam to win. 
    
    But the team grew and Glanville didn't. And he was gone. In came Jack
    Pardee, and the defense took another big step forward. 
    
    But the boys in blue still lost, as the Moon didn't rise (from a 
    hospital bed) in the playoffs.
    
    But this year would be different - I knew it ! We'd win the AFC
    Central, get the home field, and storm through the playoffs to a
    title. 
    
    Yeah, right.
    
    Instead, I watch a great start dissolve into a ..... ah never mind.
    
    The bottom line is that my life is in tatters, I hate Orange, and  I can't 
    watch Mr Ed reruns anymore without breaking out into a rash.
    
    That's why I've come to Oilers Anon.
    
    I want to be a Tampa Bay fan, where life is cheap, and my heartache
    ends in October.
    
    Or a Colts or Green Bay fan.
    
    Maybe even a (gasp) Dallas Cowboy backer.
    
    Whatever, I need help. 
    
    Please.
    
    Doc
    
    
    
    :-) :-) :-)

    Good Note Doc...  Sorry about Moon,  He's a class act !
    
    BG

    Yeah, Moon deserved a lot better. The team did. But they snatched
    defeat out of the jaws of victory.
    
    Hopefully the boys will learn and grow from it, but Moon and Drew Hill
    are 35 nexted season ....
    
    Never expected the D to collaspe like it did when Childress left the
    game. Combined with the loss of Doug Smith, it proved to be too much.
    
    Doc 

       Good stuff Doc. You're more than welcome on the Pats' 'wagon. It's
    even a team you cain watch every week! Nowhere to go but up!
                                     Denny

    Sorry Denny ... the Pats are improving. 
    
    And that means that I'll get my heart broken.
    
    I want a friggin' doormat that won't stress me out after October 15th
    or so .... and I don't want to use the Celtics' fan's escape of
    latching on to ancient history (bye Packers).
    
    Maybe the Cards or Tampa Bay ....

    Doc -
    
    The Oilers season was lost in the winds in the Meadowlands.  When the
    Giants spanked them, out the window went the bye and the homefield -
    and any hope of making the Super Bowl.
    
    In fact, the Oilers were 1-3 vs. the NFC East.  
    
    JD

    I know people were wondering about my analogy to the Raiders.
    
    Well, look at how they never seemed to win a playoff game in the period
    between SB II and SB IX. For *eight* years, it was the Fish, Steelers,
    Colts, or somebody taking them out. The Cowboys stayed frustrated from
    around 1966-1972.
    
    I hope the Oilers eventually get the same payoff .... 

    re .401:
    
    > Hopefully the boys will learn and grow from it, but Moon and Drew Hill
    > are 35 nexted season ....
    
    Doc, aren't a few of the Oilers' starting linemen also approaching
    their mid-thirties?
    
    
    py (who hits 3-5 near the end of the month)

    > I know people were wondering about my analogy to the Raiders.
    > 
    > Well, look at how they never seemed to win a playoff game in the period
    > between SB II and SB IX. For *eight* years, it was the Fish, Steelers,
    > Colts, or somebody taking them out. The Cowboys stayed frustrated from
    > around 1966-1972.
    
    Never seemed to win a playof game, Doc, but the Raiders actually did
    and advanced to the AFL/AFC championship game (in a tough conference 
    during that period) *five* times, losing all five, plus a sixth time 
    in that Super Bowl II season.  The Cowboys lost in the NFL/NFC 
    championship game twice and in the Super Bowl a third from 1966-72.
    
    There's an analogy of frustration there, but really no comparison to
    the Raiders and Cowboys.  The Oilers are a fine team, I believe the 
    only team to make the playoffs the last five years, but I think the Bum
    Phillips squads were better...
    
    glenn
    

    Doc,
    
    watcha worried about?  Certainly not the Bengals under
    Daddy's-Coattails Shula.  Certainly not the Steelers who will need a
    miracle to overcome the engrained problems.  Certainly not the Browns
    who, though on the way up, still managed to end up behind the Steelers
    after 16 games were played.
    
    I said it last year and I'll say it this year, if the Oilers don't win
    the AFC Central title next season, there's something seriously wrong.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    They will not repeat as AFC Central Champs... bank on it.
    Cunningham 1991 = Moon 1992.
    

    >Whatever, I need help.
    
    Some things are better left unsaid.  Now you've made us feel
    uncomfortable.
    
    Hey Squawker, learn a little grid willya.  Jeffires didn't catch
    that pass cause it was thrown way behind him, he had to slow, and
    the DB was able to catch up with him and grab his arms forcing the
    drop.
    
    It was a poor thrown clutch pass by a QB in his bad Half Moon rising.
    This same QB has been at the helm directing any number of mysterious
    clutch-is-down fades.  Mysterious isn't it?  Wonder why that is.
    
    MrT

    Gotta agree with T...  The reason the passwasn't caught was because of
    an awsome defensive play by the Donks Secondary...
    
    Go Donks !
    
    BG

    re .409

    Glenn, the Raiders also lost the Immaculate Reception game, and they
    had another disappointing 1st round loss. Remember that they played one
    fewer game than Houston does now (result of the Oilers not getting the
    bye).

    The Cowboys got blown out by Cleveland in 68, and demolished by the
    Skins in the NFC title game, not to mention a few other big losses.

    I realize that the analogy is flawed, but there is something to it.
    What I do fear is that this loss may have far-reaching implications. As
    you know, I was in Houston at the time, and many players feel like
    there would (will) be a housecleaning if the Oilers didn't make the
    AFC title game.

    They didn't. And they lost to a team they should have beat. The
    homefield advantage was neutralized in the first period. The Oilers got
    a great performance from Moon, good ones from White, Givens, and Bubba
    McDowell. But the defense gave up 2 80 yard drives in the fourth
    period, and generally played a mediocre game, the kicking game gagged,
    and the 4th period coaching stunk.

    What really burned me is that a editorial basically absolved the front
    office and coaching staff of 90% of possible blam (tm), and went after
    the players (certain anonymous ones) with a vengeance.

    I have a bad feeling that the front office will make a stupid trade for
    the sake of shaking things up (Remember Pastorini for Stabler ? Or
    Casper for two #1 picks ?), and the Oilers will do a crash and burn of
    epic proportions.

    Changes I'd like to see :

    1) Modify the R&S a little to take advantage of these 6-DB alignments.
    In fact Pardee was asked if he'd get a lead blocker or TE for such
    occasions. I found it interesting that he did NOT rule it out.

    He said, "... if he can play another position ....".

    I'd love to see Steve Sewell (I know, forget it), or Rod Bernstein in
    Oiler blue, big, versatile, productive, what else could you ask for ?

    2) The front office needs to get behind the players.

    Every year, there are holdouts, and long, acrimonious and public
    negotiations. I'm sick of it.  Lorenzo White, Greg Montgomery, and Sean
    Jones this year. And it looks like Drew Hill may get screwed the way
    that Terry Kinard did. And what happened with Moon goes beyond
    travesty.

    So will Bud Adams et al clean up their act ? I doubt it. They are, IMO,
    rednecks and cheapskates. One is bad enough. Both means long-term
    disaster.

    Please note that I have NEVER predicted an Oiler dynasty. The front
    office is why.

    3.) Better coaching in the clutch.

    Pardee has been a coach and player fro over 4 decades. What happened
    against the Broncos in the last 3 minutes was inexcusable.

    re Paul

    Moon is 35, but he doesn't have the mileage that a Montana has (no
    serious arm or back surgery), and he takes great care of himself.
    However, the strain of throwing 35-40 passes a game might begin to take
    a toll. Drew Hill reminds me of Charlie Joiner and Frank Lewis. Both
    were better AFTER their 30th birthday than before. Hill can still play
    (90 catches this year, and he became the first player to record 4 1,000
    yard seasons after the age of 30), but he swore that 92 would be it for
    him.

    Munchak is 31, and his knees ache. Matthews is 30 I think, and so is
    Steinkuhler. Munch and Matthews will be fine, but the Oilers will have
    to start finding linemen soon.

    The good news is that Dishman, Givens, McDowell, White, Duncan, Jeffries, 
    and most of the D-line except Lee Williams is under 30.

    The Oilers *should* age slow and gracefully ....

    Doc

    
    Both balls were catchable; the first being a gimme.  The pass into the
    end zone would have required Jeffires to overcome a tap on the arm.
    T'weren't that difficult a play to make, but it was the one big play in
    the game Moon didn't execute perfectly...
    
    So how come Warren Moon is suddenly responsible for his team's defense
    and receivers but Big Bad John is unfairly saddled with a poor
    offensive line, no running game, and a defense that collapses like a
    house of cards when it senses that an NFC team is in the stadium?
    Mysterious, ain't it?
    
    glenn
    
                                          

    Having read thru these notes I think the basic problem is that the
    Houston fans are so negatory, probably from being bridesmaids for so
    many years.
    
    It isn't the fact that:
    
      1) Jeff Freeze DROPPED the pass, or
      2) Worn Moon throws BEHIND, or
      3) Del Geeko can't MAKE a field goal,
    
    the reason they lost is that
    
      1) Vance Johnson can CATCH a ball, when the pressure is fourth and
         ten,
      2) John Elway can PASS or RUN when the pressure is on,
      3) Treadwell can MAKE a 49 yarder.
    
    Get some positive players and attitude, you'll do okay.
    
    -- Jim

     Glenn,
    
     I would say that the the so called "Tap" on the arm was much more than
    that.  I have a tape of the game (in FACT(tm) I have tapes of all of
    them) and have viewed it 2x.  The defender for the Donks pulled on 
    Jeff-Freeze arm just as the ball came in and held it back making it 
    all but impossible to make the catch.  I never said that Moon was the
    cause of the Soilers loss in Pile It High...  It's like --Jim said,
    The Denver Broncos were the reason they are at home now.  Denver won
    this game,  The Soilers did not give it away.
    
    Moon Is A Class Act...  To bad his team mates are such trash talking
    boobs.
    
    Big GAme Hunta 

    
    BOTTOM LINE: The better team (the Denver Broncos) WON!

    
     Thanks Groaner...  I'll remember that.  For once I have
    to agree.
    
    BGH

    Im still in shock from this game... 4rth and 10 and the DB is worrying
    about elway running...A$$H0#$.  IF he stays with his man and Elway runs
    for a first down bid deal he still has to make many more yrds to get in
    FG range.  A HUGE mistake giving up 45yrds in that situation by the DB.
    
    If this is not the DEFENSE's fault then I dont know what is, I guess
    you could blame it on the Defensive Coaches but it has to be the
    biggest blunder in the playoffs this year.
    
    But I will also say that the Offense didnt do that great after say
    midway thru the 2nd so they can share the blame.  The 2 dropped passes
    one was very pathetic the other was marginal.  But you cant be dropping
    them in the big games, thats what practice is for.
    
    So the Oilers get sent home early, and no the better team did not win
    the team playing the better ball at the end of the season won....Oh
    well...
    								MaB

    
    >>So the Oilers get sent home early, and no the better team did not win
    >>the team playing the better ball at the end of the season won
    
    	This sound like a contradiction to me !!!  
    
    
    BGH

>    Im still in shock from this game... 4rth and 10 and the DB is worrying
>    about elway running...A$$H0#$.  IF he stays with his man and Elway runs
>    for a first down bid deal he still has to make many more yrds to get in
>    FG range.  A HUGE mistake giving up 45yrds in that situation by the DB.
    

I saw the replay last week of the two 4th down situations.  Elway himself
stated that the second situation looked almost like the first, from 
his angle of leaving the breaking down pocket to the spaces open in front.

The defensive backs natural reaction, especially if they are playing zone,
is to come up and make the stop.  The receiver is supposed to do one
of two things -- go up (which he did) or come back.

Looking at the replay, I think that if the back HAD stayed with the receiver,
Elway had at least 20 yards to gain.


Another situation where a QBs mobility makes something happen....


'SAw

    Yeah, I still don't understand all this negatory stuff from the Houston
    fans.  Here they're crying, "boo hoo our a$$hole CB messed up", when in
    reality the CB's cojones were in a wringer.  Because of Elway's extra
    dimension, the CB was in a no-win situation.  Had he stuck with Vance,
    we'd have to listen to "boo hoo our a$$hole CD messed up.  He let Elway
    run for twenty."
    
    Come on! Grow Up! Denver brought the positive forces that day and beat
    you!
    
    -- Jim

    The Broncos *were* the better team.  There's no disputing that.  Making
    mistakes and suffering breakdowns are part of the game, the things that
    separate the good teams from the great.  There's probably a reason that
    the Oilers have been making these exact same mistakes and excuses about 
    their defense and receivers in the playoffs the last five years.
    
    I have made only the following commentaries on the game:
    
    1) Warren Moon was fantastic.  There was no second-half fade, as the
       Oilers looked more to the running game and only had three
       possessions in the entire half anyway as both teams held the ball 
       for long periods of time on long drives.  It's stupid to cite a 
       hundred yards in passing yardage as sub-standard for the
       run-and-shoot when attempts were way down (14 on the three drives,
       below average for a half even for a conventional offense) yet the 
       offense was moving the ball (but admittedly didn't put up the scores 
       due to a missed chip-shot field goal and a couple dropped passes.
       Mistakes kill in the NFL.). 
    
    2) The game was not an indictment of the run-and-shoot.  The
       run-and-shoot may not ever make it as a viable championship-caliber
       offense, but that certainly wasn't shown in this game.  In fact,
       on the last drive the Oilers held the ball five minutes and burned
       Denver's two remaining timeouts while covering fifty yards.  If a
       ball-control running team accomplished the exact same thing in that
       situation strictly with the run it would be heralded as a gutsy, 
       crunching, time-consuming drive.
    
    3) Houston's receivers are overrated if you rate them based on their 
       statistics.  There doesn't seem to be a clutch go-to guy in the 
       bunch.  I doubt that this is a property of the run-and-shoot.
    
    4) Houston's defense apparently played over its head this year.  Even
       though they had some players out from the defensive line, the pass 
       rush on the last two drives wasn't the problem.  Coverage,
       containment, and discipline were the major problems.
    
    glenn
    

    
    Thank You...
    
    Big Game Hunter

    Well the only good thing is in this situation the so called better
    team can only go as far as 0-5 in SB's, another Denver record in
    the making (if they can get by buffalo).  I know its not luck but
    you would think that a team thats good enough to go to the superbowl
    4 times would at least win one ?  Actually I think the answer is
    that Denver is always Good, theyve just never been great.
    								MaB

    re .428
    
    That's what I was thinking. Moon like sto look for Hill in the clutch,
    the Givens. I suspect that both were double-covered.
    
    And fact was, Jeffries was open on both. Moon did deliver. Jeffries
    (with 100 receptions on the year) screwed up.
    
    Re the big pass to Johnson
    
    If you look at the replay, Al Smith had an angle on Elway as well. He
    might have gotten the first down - maybe. Even if he does, Denver is
    only at midfield (at best), and the clock is still running. Instead,
    they get to the Houston 20 - AND stop the clock. Double whammy.
    
    In any case, Houston blew it by calling TO the play before. You could
    see Elway say "Thanks guys !" - because he was hosed.
    
    Doc

    Both of the Houston TOs on the last drive were terrible decisions IMHO. 
    It is hard to decide which one was worse, the 4th and 10 or the FG ice
    move.  
    
    On the subject of the TO to ice the kicker,  Houston was most likely
    going to get the ball back with about 20 sec. and down by 2 points.  A
    TO would have allowed the offense to run the deep crossing pattern
    which the prevent is famous for giving up.  A 30-40 yard gain on the
    1st play of the drive would have made a Houston FG a real possiblity,
    even with the lack of time.
    
    The Houston defense continually desinigrated in the 2nd half.  Having 2
    DL out really must have hurt them.  The bad coaching decisions have
    already been discussed.
    
    I give credit to Denver for hanging in there during the 1st half when
    things were looking tough.  And for taking advantage of the opportunity
    at the end of the game.  A few breaks for the Oilers during the middle
    of the game and this could have been an easy win, but Broncos never let
    it quite get out of reach.  Congratulations.
    
    Scott
    
    P.S. For the draft, Houston needs a TE type with good hands (blocking
    ability would be merely a bonus), and to stock up on defense.

    
     True, Doc...  I couldn't believe they called the timeout.
    It truely amazed me.  Elway was out breath, outa time and 
    on the rope and just when you thought, theres know way he 
    catch his breath,  the Oilers call for time...  I was 
    lovin it !!
    
    Big Game Hunta 

re .425

>    The Broncos *were* the better team.  There's no disputing that. 

Yes there is. The Oiler's had the game, and blew it. The Broncos wern't better
than Houston, but Houston did not display the killer instinct that a Buffalo or
Washington has ... and it cost them dearly.

The Oilers are a championship team from the neck down at the worst possible
times, like Saturday.
 
>    1) Warren Moon was fantastic.  There was no second-half fade, as the

No argument from me.
   
>    Mistakes kill in the NFL.). 
 
No kidding :-)
   
>    2) The game was not an indictment of the run-and-shoot.  The
>       run-and-shoot may not ever make it as a viable championship-caliber
>       offense, but that certainly wasn't shown in this game.  In fact,
>       on the last drive the Oilers held the ball five minutes and burned
>       Denver's two remaining timeouts while covering fifty yards.  If a
>       ball-control running team accomplished the exact same thing in that
>       situation strictly with the run it would be heralded as a gutsy, 
>       crunching, time-consuming drive.
 
True again. Which is probably why we haven't seen JD in here bleating about it. 
Not to mention that Detroit is in the NFC title game.  

>    3) Houston's receivers are overrated if you rate them based on their 
>       statistics.  There doesn't seem to be a clutch go-to guy in the 
>       bunch.  I doubt that this is a property of the run-and-shoot.
 
Not true. Hill is normally the go-to guy. And deservedly so. Ditto for Givens.
And please note that those two were very productive and dynamic in a
conventional offense from 1987-89, in the pre-Pardee era. Along with Jeffries,
that threesome can start for any team in football. Duncan isn't bad either. If
Houston's wideouts wern't good (and gutsy), the R&S passing game would not 
thrive (ask Detroit about quality WR's), especially since unlike the Lions, 
they have no Barry Sanders.   

Actually, a property of the R&S is to hit the open man, and take what the D
gives you. In some games it gives you Jeffires. Against the Jets (in their 1st
game), he responded in a huge way. Saturday, he did not.

>    4) Houston's defense apparently played over its head this year.  Even
>       though they had some players out from the defensive line, the pass 
>       rush on the last two drives wasn't the problem.  Coverage,
>       containment, and discipline were the major problems.
 
True, but you haven't been following the Oilers that closely if you really
believe that the D has been playing over it's head.   

Houston was 3rd in the AFC in total defense this year, and in the top 7 in
football I think. Since Pardee has taken over, they have improved each year.
Last year they cut TD passes allowed form 26 to 18 - this year it dropped some
more.

The Oilers sent Childress, Fuller (a better case could be made for Doug Smith),
Al Smith, Dishman, and McDowell to the Pro Bowl this year. on D. Sean Jones, 
and Richard Johnson went last year.

One point you are forgetting is that the Mike Dumas and Darrell Lewis were
rookies this year, and they are key in prevent and nickel packages. And Richard
Johnson was medicore this year. True, they had breakdowns, but the Oilers'
defensive performance for much of the year was NOT an aberration. In fact, they
stand a good chance of being better next year, and probably should be. With
guys like McDowell, Dishman, Lee Williams, Childress, et al, and Lathon on the
verge of stardom (and Lewis, a top pick, improving next year), the defense can
be one of the league's best.
 
Doc

    Midnight, you're coming off like a small-time Chris Dishmain who
    doesn't hit hard.
    
    Hint: The Broncos won fair and square.  This means the Broncos are
    the better team.  Determining which team is better (or, in the case
    of the Toilers, worse) is, in fact, why they play the damned games
    in the first place.
    
    True, if better/worse were determined by press clippings and individual
    dastisticks (tm), then with the overrated Worn Half Moon at the helm
    the Toilers would be better.  But it isn't, so they're not.
    
    MrT 

     ... so speaks MrT, the Weenie-come-lately to the Broncos' bandwagon.

    
    I hope someone is saving T's notes, before they "disappear"
    

>    I hope someone is saving T's notes, before they "disappear"
    
CAM is backed up, full image, on a weekly basis.  Also, certain backups
are archived.

I have a feeling those notes will be around for a LONG, LONG time....8^)


'Saw

    	That's good 'Saw, cuz I want to see MorT's reaction to Dennis
    Smith's claim that the better team (i.e. Broncos) lost yesterday
    and then compare it to what he said in here about certain Houston
    players.
    
    				/Don

    Doc -
    
    Since your brought my name up.  I still don't like the RUn and SHoot -
    and the playoffs once again showed that the run and shoot can't win
    outside in less than perfect conditions on grass.  The LIons were
    totally demolished yesterday.  Totally.  If that was a fight, it would
    have been a TKO way before ANdre "Overinflated Stats = Heisman" Ware
    got to throw his TD pass to Darryl Green.  And The Oilers blew it cause
    there coach doesnt' have a clue how to act outside of a dome.
    
    And let it be known that since the original Rn n shoot, Detroit has
    changed the offense to feature Sanders more (DAH!) and get a tight end
    into it.  IMO, Houston would still have been AFC Champs if they ran a
    tradional offense, but IMO, they may have been BETTER if they had.  
    
    It seems to me that the R & S is great during blowouts, but in close
    games....
    
    Look at the 'stretch' run by the Oilers.  Beat by a dispirited Giants
    team (But it was outside in wind...), almost beat by a Jets team that
    should have been blown out, and then beat by Denver.
    
    If that's an advertisement for how great the R&S is, then have at it..
    
    JD

    
re .439
        
>    Since your [sic] brought my name up.  I still don't like the RUn and SHoot -
>    and the playoffs once again showed that the run and shoot can't win
>    outside in less than perfect conditions on grass.
    
    Give it a rest JD. Grass, turf have nothing to do with the offense. I
    noticed Houston beat Cleveland in a snowstorm (oh yeah, at this time of
    the year, that's painted dirt - not grass. Does that count ?) in
    December, but of course why mess up a good polemic with facts eh ?
    
>      The LIons were totally demolished yesterday.  Totally.  
    
    It was 17-10 at the half JD. The Lions look damned competive until they
    missed that FG at 20-10 after a long drive. That took a lot of the wind
    out of their sails. Then Rypian and The Posse finished them off.
    
    And the 2nd half blowout was due to the simple fact that Wash. was the
    better team. Plain and simple.
    
>    And The Oilers blew it cause there coach doesnt' have a clue how to act outside of a dome.
 
    In part, yes. No argument fom this fan (read my earlier notes about
    Pardee).   
    
>    And let it be known that since the original Rn n shoot, Detroit has
>    changed the offense to feature Sanders more (DAH!) and get a tight end
>    into it.
    
    And let it be known that Detroit still runs the R&S, your T-fuscation
    nothwithstanding. Hell, they should feature Barry more. ANd what's
    wrong with modifying the offense ?
    
    The original T-formation was two ends tight on the line with a
    full-house backfield. Yet it was modified and adapted as defenses
    changed. I expect the same for the R&S. 
    
    And I know you aren't the anaytical type, but all R&S teams aren't the
    same. Houston is different from Detroit, which is different from
    Atlanta.
    
   >   IMO, Houston would still have been AFC Champs if they ran a
  <  tradional offense, but IMO, they may have been BETTER if they had.  
   
    I think you meant "still would not have been ...". Assuming that you
    did, they might have been. 
    
    Yet the simple truth is that the R&S wasn't responsible for the loss to
    Denver. Poor 4th quarter coaching and defense were (with a blown FG and
    two Jeffries drops for good measure).
     
>    It seems to me that the R & S is great during blowouts, but in close
>    games....
 
    Let's see ... Houston beat :
    
    - Cleveland twice by driving 80+ yards in the last 4 minutes.
    - Dallas in OT (563 yards of offense)
    - KC with a clinching 8 miunte drive in the 4th period.
    - Lost to Wash, because of a missed 33 yd FG.
    - Had a chance to tie Philly on the last play.
    
    Houston was won more than their share of close ones, and haven't gotten
    blown out because of their O.
         
>    Look at the 'stretch' run by the Oilers.  Beat by a dispirited Giants
>    team (But it was outside in wind...),
    
    The wind had nothing to do with 193 rushing yards. The Oilers were
    flat, and got outplayed. The style of O is irrelavant.
    
    Face it JD, if the Giants are the sample speciman of manly football,
    then everyone should play R&S. 
    
    Because they didn't do jack s--t in the wind, rain, clear days or
    cloudy. Was that because of the R&P ?
    
>     almost beat by a Jets team that should have been blown out,
    
    The Jets and Oilers could play 50 times. I doubt you'd see either team
    win a game by more than 7 points maybe 5 times out of that 50. Some
    teams match up well with others. Look at Denver and Buffalo.
    
    Or the Giants and Washington. The Giants recently had a 6 game win
    streak against them. Were they that much better ? if so, why did Philly
    own them ? And why couldn't Philly beat Washington ?
    
    Can you understand that ?
    
>     and then beat by Denver.
 
    No. Houston beat themselves. Denver was simply the lucky team to play
    them that week.
    
    Doc

    
    DENVER WON!  They arethe better team.  Houston was lucky to be in
    the game!  Claiming that Denver got lucky is nothing but sour grapes
    from an uninformed fan (who lives to jump on and off various
    bandwagons).  I don't hear you tooting Washington's horn now that
    Doug (one-game) Williams is no longer playing... Hmmm....

    So has Cleveland beaten Houston in this decade ?

    Hey Doc -
    
    Since you like to make fun of the Jints Run and Punt.  Just thought I'd
    throw this by ya.  The Houston Oilers have NEVER beaten the Giants. 
    Ever.
    
    So shaddup.
    
    JD

    No Kidding...  Thats a pretty mean stat. 
    
    Hey Ninj.  How many teams are there out there that have never beaten
    another club.  Be interesting to know.
    
    Bug Game Junta

    Ooooohh, JD, you sound more like Hal every day ... remember the Browns
    "domination" of the Midgets ?
    
    Poor JD, he's mad because he caint refute my superior football
    knowledge and objective anaylsis with facts, so he resorts to Hal-isms.
    
    (at least) Hal tried Hard,
    
    
    Doc

    
    
    Doc -
    
    Superior football knowledge?  HAH, HAH, HAH.  ANytime bud.
    
    All I know Doc - is despite a boring offense, the JInts have two Vince
    Lombardi trophies on the mantle.  The Oilers, with their great pinball
    offense have none.  So, go ahead and make fun of the Jints.  
    
    Face it DOc - the Run and SHoot is a great offense - for indoor teams
    who need to excite their fawning fans with inflated stats and the
    excitiment of running up scores.   Nevermind that they constantly lose
    in the playoffs.  The Oilers are like the TarHells (TM) - awesome in
    the regular season - but oh those many, many excellent losses come
    tournament time.
    
    Cuz, DOc, to tell ya the truth, I look at the talent level of this
    year's Oilers and honestly feel that they would have had the same
    record - and maybe a better one - if they ran a more conventional
    offense.   
    
    Of course, with Pardee coaching, this team will find ways to
    self-destruct.   Personally, I think the OIlers would be positively
    devastating as a grind it out team.  They could be as dominate as this
    year's Redskins.   Imagine pounding the ball into the guts of the
    defense behind their superb offensive line - with the defense knowing
    that at any time, Mr. Moon could do play action to Givens, or Hill, or
    Jeffires?     
    
    Right now they remind me of the Air Coreyll Chargers.   But those
    Chargers never made it to the dance either.  Why?  Cuz despite the
    naysayers - defense wins champeenships.  Just like Pitching wins world
    series.   
    
    In fact, with a good tightend and a balanced attack - I'd fully expect
    the Oilers to go 14-2 or 15-1 over a season.  But they'll stick to
    Pardee-ball - win the AFC Central - and lose in the playoffs.   And
    then Warren will be too old.   ANd Pardee will go.  And the Oilers will
    sink into the sunset - ust like the Chargers did.
    
    JD

    �Why?  Cuz despite the naysayers - defense wins champeenships.  
    
    Huh?  What does this have to do with running a "balanced offense"?

    That was pretty depressing,  if you're a soilers fan anyhow.
    
    BG

    Mac -
    
    Why?  Because teams seem to constantly try to win by coming up with a
    gimmick offense.  And many times, it gives them some improvement -
    enought to get into the playoffs.  But that's that.  There aren't any
    shortcuts to a champeenship.  Champeenship teams are built around the
    defense and the offensive lines - then the defense as a whole.  Having
    a good leader for a QB is tantamount.  A good leader isn't necessarily
    the QB with the best or flashiest stats.   
    
    Even the 49ers - which had an awesome offense (and one that was
    balanced - beat ya anyway you wanna get beat - pounding run control, or
    surgical nuke strikes deep...) - had a great defense - one that was
    consistently in the top echelons of the NFC throughout the 1980's.  
    
    JD

    
     Kind of strange that the defense crumbles with two minutes left and 
    yet this is an indictment of the run n' shoot. Also kind of strange
    that the same luddites who rag on the run n' shoot were no where to
    be found the week after the runnin' n' shootin' Lions slapped the dog
    snot out of the smash-mouth Cowboys.
    
     The basic fact of the matter is that the specualation Oilers would do 
    with a conventional offense is irrelevant, kind of like that old SNL
    skit about would Waterloo have been different if Napoleon had had a
    B-52 bomber ?  Well, he didn't and the Oilers don't have a conventional
    offense but they have one that should have been good enough to win out-
    doors in Denver.

    Tommy -
    
    
    Since I assume your tirade is directed at least partly at me -I'll
    reply (again) - about Detroit and Dallas.  I was damn glad the Lions
    beat the Cowboys.  I loathe the Cowboys - like all good Giants fans do. 
    I wouldn't care if the Lions used the Fan Dance, the Brie and Volvo,
    the Run and Shoot, or the Chip and Butch offense - as long as they
    walloped the Cowboys.    And of course, the Lions did look great
    indoors on a rug, as opposed to outdoors the next week, didn't they?
    
    JD

      How can you say that we would be watching a oilers/skins SB if oilers
    would have beat denver?
    
      Do you think the oiler defense would have played as well as Denvers
    against Buff?  Its hard to say,  but my guess would be no.  Denver did
    as much as anyone could have.  they held the best rated offense outta
    the end-zone.  I bet the skins won't even accomplish that!
    
      The oiler defense just isn't as good as the Broncos this year.
    
    	Tim

    
    >>Since I assume your tirade is directed at least partly at me -I'll
   
      Tirade ? What tirade ? This is a tirade :
        
     "They should take the OIlers and other Dome teams like Minnesota and
      start a Clown Football League and let fans who need electronic
      scoreboards to tell them when to cheer get engrossed in the FAUX
      football played."
    
      Look familiar ?
     
    >>And of course, the Lions did look great indoors on a rug, as opposed 
    >>to outdoors the next week, didn't they?
    
      The better team won both weeks and that is exactly the point. Run n'
      shoot or no the vast majority of the time the better team will win.
      Because Doc or I or anyone else likes the Oilers doesn't make us
      'faux fans' or unknowledgeable anymore than you liking smash-mouth
      football makes you a neanderthal.

    
>    Right now they remind me of the Air Coreyll Chargers.   But those
>    Chargers never made it to the dance either.  Why?  Cuz despite the
>    naysayers - defense wins champeenships.  Just like Pitching wins world
>    series.   
    
    I recall the Air Coryell Chargers as being more consistent and maybe
    even more explosive.  They also had one of the best tight ends to ever
    play the game.  
    
    BTW, those Chargers at least managed to make it to 2 AFC title games.
    
    
    Joe
 

    
    >  The better team won both weeks and that is exactly the point. Run n'
    >  shoot or no the vast majority of the time the better team will win.
    >  Because Doc or I or anyone else likes the Oilers doesn't make us
    >  'faux fans' or unknowledgeable anymore than you liking smash-mouth
    >  football makes you a neanderthal.
    
    Rollward!
    
    The fack of the matter is that JD just doesn't want to admit in any
    way, shape or form that the run-and-shoot could ever be successful as
    an offense for a well-balanced team (offense and defense).  Whenever an
    example like the Lions comes up, there's always a caveat like "well,
    they've got a good running game because of Barry Sanders so it's not
    really the run-and-shoot"-- the run-and-shoot offense has a running 
    back in it and it doesn't preclude him being a good or even great one, 
    ferchrissakes!
    
    If the 49ers had employed their offensive personnel in the run-and-shoot
    there'd have been an offensive explosion in the NFL like never seen 
    before, and at least as many championships won, if not more.  Could they
    consistently win in the snow and ice with it?  Nope.  Guess what?  They
    wouldn't have to; they play their games (including most of their
    playoff games) in San Francisco.  If another team with different 
    personnel in a different environment implemented it it might result in 
    a tragic failure.  So what?  Is it fair to criticize the failure of 
    ceratin smash-mouth teams like the Bears to consistently win in warm 
    weather?
    
    Anyone is free to enjoy whatever kind of football they like (I lean 
    towards smash-mouth, pre-passing-rule-changes football myself), but 
    let's separate that personal perference from reality and be objective 
    about this...
    
    glenn
    

    re .452
    
    Don't remind me Hawk ! AAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!
    
    Of all of the losses I've seen, that one (Denver) was the most bitter,
    and hardest to swallow. They were not the better team, and Houston
    should have buried them. And they didn't. 
    
    And to Denver's credit, they made Houston pay dearly.
    
    After watching Elway revert to normal, and seeing Buffalo bumble ...
    I'd love to see what the Houston papers are saying. I remember a
    Houston (5th) columnist saying that it was a good thing that Houston
    lost, because the Bills would have destroyed them anyway (based on the
    Bills-KC game).
    
    Not.
    
    I wish there had been a Wash-Hou rematch, but it won't happen. And the
    Oilers have no one to blam but themselves.
    
    Doc

    First off.  ANyone who knows this conference knows that the good Doctor
    and myself have traded barbs about this for a while.  
    
    But, not matter how you guys cut your bologna - the two most successful
    R&S teams are the Oilers and the Lions.  And they are successful.  I've
    never said they weren't.  In fact, if you guys cared to actually read,
    you'd have seen where I fairly praised the Oilers personnel.  But back
    to the heart of the matter - those two teams are dome teams.  They've
    shown that in the dome, the R&S is great.  It works outdoors - but it
    doesn't seem as effective.  IN fact, one Warren Moon himself has said
    that the R&S has extreme difficulties in windy weather.   
    
    Glenn's bringing up SF and 'ifs' is subject to the Tommy B.
    Napolean/B-52/Waterloo rule.  
    
    All I've seen the R&S do is overinflate stats, and give some folks
    woodies - and at the college level, allow a certain team to run up the
    score against small school patsies  - but the Vince Lombardi trophy
    will not go to a R&S team this year.  Yeah, it might some day.  Just
    like some day Tampa Bay may win one.  Anything is possible.  But so
    far, the most overhyped 'new' offense to come around has done nothing
    more than let some munchkin receivers avoid the unemployment line.
    
    JD

    
    re .446
    
>    Face it DOc - the Run and SHoot is a great offense - for indoor teams
>    who need to excite their fawning fans with inflated stats and the
>    excitiment of running up scores.   
    
    Since when have the Oilers run up the score ?
    
    And JD, lets see if you can unbias yourself long enough to admit that
    the Giants runners have inflated stats ? Well ? Why don't I hear that
    Eric Dickerson (to use an example, feel free to use any good RB) had 
    inflated stats when he gets 30-35 carries ?
    
    What is the difference between that,a nd a WR catching 100 passes ?
    

>    Cuz, DOc, to tell ya the truth, I look at the talent level of this
>    year's Oilers and honestly feel that they would have had the same
>    record - and maybe a better one - if they ran a more conventional
>    offense.   
 
    Hard to tell ....
       
>    Of course, with Pardee coaching, this team will find ways to
>    self-destruct. 
    
    I see the flaws in the man. But I also have seen a big improvement over
    the Glanville regime. I'll give Pardee another year.
    
>    Right now they remind me of the Air Coreyll Chargers.   But those
>    Chargers never made it to the dance either.  Why?  Cuz despite the
>    naysayers - defense wins champeenships.  Just like Pitching wins world
>    series.   
 
    So what does that mean ? What does the run and shoot have to do with
    defense ? 
    
    Hpw about picking a bone, and staying with it ?
       
>    In fact, with a good tightend and a balanced attack - I'd fully expect
>    the Oilers to go 14-2 or 15-1 over a season. 
    
    Just for fun JD, tell us how amny good TE's are there in the NFL ?
    
>    But they'll stick to Pardee-ball - win the AFC Central - and lose in the 
>    playoffs.  
    
    We shall see, eh ? Hope the Giants cain 'fail' as well ....
    
>    And then Warren will be too old. 
    
    Trying to give me nightmares ?
    
    At least you admit that he's The Genuine Article. 
    
    Once again, in spite of yourself, you are making progress JD. I'm proud
    of ya !
    
    Doc

    I still think you are tilting at windmills and stabbing yourself in the
    foot, JD.  As you yourself have been stating, although you probably
    won't admit it, the Oilers have been scoring enough points to win
    football games, but their defense hasn't given them enough consistency
    to win the big games.  You keep trying to bash the R&S and only succeed
    in pointing out that Houston and Detroit need some defensive help to go
    to the next level.
    
    You can't blame the R&S for the loss to Denver.  Just look at the
    points scored, the time of posession, and the yardage accumulated by
    Houston, outdoors, on grass, in the winter in the Rocky Mountains. 
    Your beloved Giants did not beat the Oilers because it was a windy day. 
    They beat them because Houston could not stop the Giant's rushing
    attack.

    In today's NFL the average offense produces more passing yards than
    rushing yards.  (My gut feeling it that this includes nearly every
    offense.)  Just from this fact alone, coaching staffs are going to
    spend more time improving, prefecting, and expermenting with the
    passing game than the running game.  
    
    The r&s is one such experment.  There have been others in the past and
    there will be others in the future until rule changes shut down the
    passing game.  As experments go the r&s has been a resounding success. 
    As a full-time championship-caliber offense, the jury is still out.
    
    The r&s was installed in average to below average teams.  Several years
    are needed to allow the teams to grow and to evaluate a new concept.
    Where was Detroit before the r&s?  How many playoff games did Houston
    win in the Glandville era?
    
    After all how long did it take to evaluate the shotgun, the Bear 46
    defense, etc.
    
    Scott

       I don'tthink you'll see too much of the wishbone in pro football.
    Caint see a $2 million Qb running a whole lot of 'option' offense.
                                           Denny

    I thought the point of the wishbone was to have a runs not a passer
    calling the signals.  More than a few WR were wishbone QBs in early in
    their career.
    
    Besides, isn't the wishbone a monly smash-mouth offense? :-)
    
    Speaking of option, what is the last NFL offense to use the option? 
    And a dozen times in a season no less?
    
    Scott

       I remeber SF using it in a scab game with the Jints. Parcells was
    laughing his a$$ off.
                                        Denny

    
    > Speaking of option, what is the last NFL offense to use the option? 
    > And a dozen times in a season no less?
    
    The Colts were fooling around with it a few years back.  Forget the
    QB's name that was running the thing...
    
    glenn
    

    Mac -
    
    One of the problems, IMO, of the R&S is that it puts a lot of pressure
    on your own defense.   Houston lost to Denver because the offense went
    brain dead and didn't kill the clock.  Didn't White run out of bounds?
    And they tried some pases (incomplete stops the clock).   I know, as
    Glenn W. has pointed out, that Houston ran a good chuck off the clock -
    but for some reason, instead of sticking to the ground (which was
    working), they paniced after a short gain/no gain/loss on a first down
    run, tried the long pass, incomplete, and then on 3rd down the clock
    got stopped again.  I know there was a penalty of something in there.
    
    Against the Jets, didn't the brain daid offense run out of bounds
    stopping the clock, and giving the Jets  that last shot (when Toon
    dropped the pass/was interfered with???)
    
    
    It is very interesting that the two teams most successful with the run
    and shoot both play in what are arguably, the worst divisions in
    football.  Without a doubt, the AFC central is a joke.  The NFC Central
    has 3 walk-overs - but at least the Bears are there - making it much
    better than the AFC version of the central.
    
    I mean the 4th place team in the NFC east went 3-1 vs. the AFC Central.
    
    But, I get your drift Mac - the defense is to blame for the losses. 
    The offense gets  the credit for the wins.
    
    JD

    Most NFL offenses are around 2/3 of the offense being generated by
    passing and 1/3 by rushing.
    
    John

    But, I don't know about numbers of plays.  Yards generated would of
    course be more by passing since the average passing play generates more
    than the average rushing play.
    
    John

    Of course, I don't know why this is being debated.  After all, the dome
    teams (artificial playing conditions) using the R & S are all at home
    getting ready to watch the Superbowl.
    
    FWIW, the wishbone would never work in the pros consistently.
    
    JD

�    But, I get your drift Mac - the defense is to blame for the losses. 
�    The offense gets  the credit for the wins.
    
    Apparently you missed it entirely.

Detroit could afford to run the option because they don't have any $2 million
qb's on their roster.... :-)


However the 3 teams that feature the R&S all made the playoffs.
They are all making strides toward the Super Bowl.
I just hope a R&S team wins the Super Bowl before either JD or I leave DEC....


I wanna either see him eating some serious crow or putting ACC Knorr's spin
control moves to shame :-)



Metz

    Metz -
    
    I've never said the R&S couldn't produce a Super Bowl winner.  In fact
    - just today I said that it would probably happen.  Just gotta keep
    hoping that teams that play outside in the real elements keep winning
    and playing the pansy R&S teams in the playoffs - outside - so they
    cain keep them outta the BOWL game.
    
    JD

    Where is that manly, smash-mouth, outdoorsy football team known as the
    NY Giants this year?  What?  They didn't even make it to the playoffs? 
    Oh, that's right.  They play on turf so there is no way they could ever
    go far in the NFL.

Wow,


I never expected the spin control to start so early. 

I guess I shouldda said...I can't wait till a R&S wins all their playoff games
away from home, on grass, in Minnysoda or Chicago weather, outdoors, against a
"smash-mouth" team.

That outta shut up the R&S naysayers....


metz :-)

    I'm still not convinced a R&S offense means dome team.  The Lions went
    2-5 on the road, but who did they lose to?  They went 1-2 against
    playoff teams and 1-3 against playoff teams.  Teams that traditionally
    play well at home.  The Redskins, Bears and San Francisco are pretty
    good teams.  They didn't have Sanders and Peete in game 1.  They played
    well at Chicago, and lost what 21-10?  That's not a blow out.  San
    Fran was a blow out.  But I think if they consistently lost to teams
    outdoors that weren't quality teams, then something may be behind it.
    
    Of course, that doesn't explain how the Falcons did so well, their dome
    comes next year...

Mac --

You yourself should know well why the Giants were not in the playoffs 
this year.  In fact, it's a reason the Wanderers are facing this spring.  

Coaching changes more often affect a club adversely than not.  In this
case, the team went from a very dynamic, highly charged motivator, to
a man who probably really wants to spend the rest of his life studying
torts.  (And IMO that's where he belongs).

He came in, and had two choices.  He could have either revamped the club
totally to his liking, or left it as it was.  Instead he tinkered with
it here and there, and made an ass of himself.

Where the Giants are today has little to do with their offense.  It
has to do with their lack of defense, and their assinine coach.


FWIW, I think it's gonna be a LONG time before the Giants are in the
playoffs again, as long as Bozo Handley is at the helm....


'Saw

    Saw, the Giants crashed and burned under that great motivator in 1987
    after their other SB win. Not to make Handley blamless (tm), but
    Parcells was smart. He got the hell out while the going was good.

    re The Option

    I saw Moon run it for a TD against the Jets early this year. Lageman
    went for Moon, Moon pitched to White, and he walked in for the score.

    Meanwhile Lageman planted his helmet right under Moon's chin, opening
    up a gash that took 4-6 stitches to close. 

    And there was NO doubt that Lageman was headhunting either. A totally
    legal hit, but vicious.

    Of course, had Dishman laid the wood like that to Elway or K-K-Kenny,
    the howls would have been deafening ....

    The Colts had a 3rd string QB run the wishbone as a change of pace
    about 3 years ago. I'd love to see the Chiefs try it with Okoye, Word,
    and Williams.
    
    Doc

>    Saw, the Giants crashed and burned under that great motivator in 1987
>    after their other SB win. Not to make Handley blamless (tm), but
>    Parcells was smart. He got the hell out while the going was good.

C'mon George, get with the program.

In 1987, it was a strike season.  YES, the Jints lost their first
games before the scabs started playing.  Parcells never took the
strike seriously, never prepared to do anything with the scabs, and the
Giants finished around .500, I believe.  Sorry, no records here to 
back that up.

YES, the Jints players got Post-SuperBowl-Syndrome and lost focus.

If you look at the next normal season, 1988, they just missed the playoffs.
1989 they lost in the first round, and 1990 they went all the way.

Parcells, with the regular Giants took a 3-12-1 team from his first season,
into the playoffs the next, I believe.

Parcells and Handley are a different as night and day, and that leaves
an effect on the team.


'Saw

PS  I'm not saying the players are not to blam, but I think coaching has
to overcome that....

Parcells got out because of the pressure of coaching.  He left at the top,
which is not a bad way to leave.

    6-9 in the post-strike year, 0-3 in "scab" games, 1 game with Miami
    cancelled due to the strike.
    
    John

    	Hey 'Saw who did the Giants lose to in the last game of the
    1988 season, keeping them from a playoff spot?
    
    				/Don

    ?slash -
    
    The Jets beat the Jints.  I vividly remembering Earnest Gray dropping
    two sure TD passes in that game.
    
    JD

1988 is the season that wasn't for me.  

I was in France, and the only American football I saw from that season
was the Super Bowl.


But it was the Jests, and believe me, JoJ and Dan never, ever, ever let
me forget it....


8^)

'Saw

    
    
    Bottom line... Oilers sip... MOON CHOKED!

	

Re.  Ice Pork

  How many times did Cleveland beat Houstan this year?


  Cadzilla

    IcePork ?
    
    Roooolllwaaard !!!!
    
    How many times has Cleveland beaten Houston in this decade ?
    
    Doc
    

>    How many times has Cleveland beaten Houston in this decade ?
    
What difference does it make?


It's just a game, and what a bunch of guys in funny looking uniforms
do might enrich our lives, might give us an emotional lift, but it
certainly don't make US any better or worse.


I'm not just picking on the Houston-Cleveland thing either, but all
the other ones that keep popping up:  Pittsburgh-Cleveland, Denver-Cleveland...


Sorry, SPORTS noters, I don't mean to be testy, but it gets awfully
boring after awhile.


Here's a suggestion:

	Have John Hendry post, in the NFL note, the answer to
	this question, and others like it.

	Then, from here on out, just say "Refer to Note 5.whatever"
	
	
That will cut down on disk space too


8^)

'SAw    

>        -< Hey Frank, have the GoWhale� beat Boston this season?  8^) >-

Too funny there /Robitusson!

The answer is NOT.

But it was so funny seeing Nilan try to get back to da bench after
Cyr hit him in da test-tick-als!


8^)

'Saw

    

    Hey 'saw,  Has the WRFL beat the Wanderers AT ALL in 1991-1992???
    

    
    
    George's, here are two questions that relate directly to YOUR
    abilities and manliness... they do not relate to professional
    football team bandwagons that you have jumped on over your
    lifetime.  Its questionable whether you've ever been to Houston
    or not... we sure know you weren't born there.
        
    
    1)  Have you ever placed iceMAN in 1-1 hoop?
    2)  What was the outcome?
    
                            

>    <<< Note 200.492 by ROCK::GRONOWSKI "the dream is always the same..." >>>
>         -< DrMs skills + questioning = disappearing ACT!  HA HA HA  >-
>
>    
>    
>    George's, here are two questions that relate directly to YOUR
>    abilities and manliness... they do not relate to professional
>    football team bandwagons that you have jumped on over your
>    lifetime.  Its questionable whether you've ever been to Houston
>    or not... we sure know you weren't born there.
>        
>    
>    1)  Have you ever placed iceMAN in 1-1 hoop?
>    2)  What was the outcome?
    

Take it to VAXMAIL.

This crap is older than the hills, and I'm damn tired of all this
bickering and baiting going on.  

The Moderators have talked about this before, and I for one am getting
really sick of seeing this crap in here.


Take it to MAIL.


Frank                            

    
    Forget it... I don't know how to use VAXmail... i'll keep it right
    here where it belongs.
    

    Frank is alot like rugby...  ;^)
    
    

    Actually, I learned Notes before VAXmail.  As a matter of fact, I
    learned VAXmail *because* of notes.  For my first two years with this
    company, the only time I used VAXMail was for notes-related
    correspondance -- everything else was ALL-IN-ONE.
    
    But then, I got shown how to use Notes during lunch immediately after
    my orientation, and before I got taken around to meet all my fellow
    co-workers.  I knew how to use Notes before I knew how to log in, even.
    
    A&W

    re Saw
    
    Applause .....kudos ....

    Kawk...  He is a Cleveland fan ya know...  I surprised he 
    know how to read !!    ;^)
    
    Big Game

    I love how the moderators can decide which "feud" and there are plenty
    in here should go to VAXmail.  Just because it's old, tired, and
    boring to you doesn't mean other people aren't getting a kick out of
    it.  If this one is not violating a DIGITAL policy, what's the big
    deal.
    
    Jimbo   

    Are you guys ever gonna quit...  You're butting in on my turf !
    
    ;^)
    
    BG

    Jimbo, to follow the thread of logic you presented in the Big Least
    note, if you don't like the job the mods are doing, then either
    volunteer to do the job, or find another notesfile.
    
    Mark.

    I don't mind some of the stuff, but the personal attacks show a craving
    for attention that borders on Odiepal ... who needs it ?

	The Date:	January 17th 1992
	The Time:	14:00
	The Place:	MLO 5-4 Cafeteria
	The Challenge	Me and Midnight one on one in a pie eating contest.

	Are you main enough Doc?

    Mark, those are two totally different situations.  The Globe is
    a business which can do anything it wants, including snubbing
    UMASS sports.  What that has to do with a moderator decision to
    intervene on 1 of many similar ongoing arguments is beyond me.
    If it works for you go with it.  
    
    Jimbo

 if Doc don't want to I'll accept that challenge...

 nothing like a homemade pie...even better than cookies

 Once. When Hawk was captain of the Noters....

 ;^)    

    I know I was write-locked a few years back for a week or two...
    Does that constitute a Moderator victory or mearly one more crushed
    uprising (ala the USSR).  I don't know for sure but it really pissed me
    off.
    
    BG

    
    > Mark, those are two totally different situations.  The Globe is
    > a business which can do anything it wants, including snubbing
    > UMASS sports.  What that has to do with a moderator decision to
    > intervene on 1 of many similar ongoing arguments is beyond me.
    > If it works for you go with it.  
    
    Most if not all of the arguments in here are sports related, even those
    at the level of "my team is better than yours".  Who can beat who at
    one-on-one might be sports related, but just a bit too local for public
    consumption, don't you think?
    
    glenn
    

    Mike I thought you were going to lose a few for that extra quickness
    in the playoffs!!!! 8*)  
    
    Jimbo

>    Mike I thought you were going to lose a few for that extra quickness
>    in the playoffs!!!! 8*)  
    
 
 I'll take extra laps...

    are you a professional straight man!!! I'll let someone else 
    do the honors.
    
    Jimbo
    
    BTW hoop fans Mike Childs hit 3 or 4 long range jumpers last night
    leading to an overtime victory.

    Slash, I don't know if I have the, er guts that you have ..... :-)

    Mike, do you still have those ratty Bob Cousy sneakers ?

    Have the Bucs beat the Packers this decade?

    Shouldn't the lasted 20 or so replies be moved to the junknote?????
    
    Oh forgot, the Oiler note is nothing but junk anyways!!
    
    (8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

    I really am starting to feel sorry for the Moderators of the great 
    conference.  I only read a very small portion of the file  and have
    to Wade (as in Clay) through ton of JN's...  They must have nightmares
    about this conference.  Yes, I feel sorry for `em but not enought to
    quit junk noting...  It's my life !

    
    Has Mighty Mouse ever beaten Superman?  C'mon, where's the box score
    and other documentation?  I hate these "mythical champeenships".
    Why don't the two of them just get together and have at it.
    
    
    Dickstah
    

    re-.1
    Only person who understands his jibberish.
    
    JaKe
    

    Midnight, I axed real nice a week or so ago that you change the
    name a this topic.  The Toilers are NOT the 1991 Super Bowl Champs,
    nor will they ever be Super Bowl Champs.
    
    Be nice and have the Mods rename this note to, say, The 1991 Worn
    Moon Choke-Job Note or somesuch.
    
    If you don't, we will be forced to relunctantly concude that you
     
    1) You are living a football fantasy and have been blinded to what
       is really going on in the NFL, or
    
    2) You are incapable of graciously accepting total, abject, humiliating
       failure.
    
    Please promptly rename this topic.
    
    MrT

    Hey T, you take your crow like a main and mebbee I'll change the title
    of the topic ;^)

    Mr. T has a point... Change this title...
    
    PS This has turned into a 100%, USDA certified, GARBAGE note...
    
    The Oilers had one of the better teams in the AFC...
    
    REK

�< Note 200.532 by FRETZ::HEISER "park ya like a car in yo mama's garage" >
�                  -< Has Jake O'Donnell ever beaten his dog? >-

	I don't know if he beats his dawg, but I known damn sure he's
beaten the Celtics or a few occasions.  I know it's true cause Johnny
Most told me so.

Chap    

 you betcha...blk hi top Chucky T's for me....

 mike

re. 531
    
    
>  Midnight, I axed real nice a week or so ago that you change the
>    name a this topic.  The Toilers are NOT the 1991 Super Bowl Champs,
>    nor will they ever be Super Bowl Champs.
 
    And I axed you to be a main, and admit that Big, Bad John choked
    against the Bills ....
    
    Now live up to that letter you wrote to me, that plaintaive missive of
    pennance, and I MIGHT consider it.
       
    If you don't 'fee up, and admit your wrongness ... then we all will be
    forced to admit :
         
    1) You are living a football fantasy and have been blinded to what
       is really going on in the NFL, or
    
    2) You are incapable of graciously accepting total, abject, humiliating
       failure.
    
    Please promptly take your medicine like a main !
    
    On behalf of SPORTS,
    
    Doc
    

    Who changed the title ?

    	Hey MorT, Doc's got a point there.  First you spend all Friday
    moaning about a harlmess shift lock error in my P-Name, then you
    engage in a classic projecting of all your phobias onto Doc.  Maybe
    the respected ::SPORTS psychologist Dr. Tom Bydrie can help us out
    here.
    
    				/Don

I changed the title this morning.

This IS the Houston Oilers Topic.  It may not be their Super Bowl topic,
but it IS the Houston Oilers Topic.

The title this morning when I came in had nothing to do with the Oilers...


'Saw

    
     And I thought ther Denver/Cleveland Notes got bad...  ;^)
    
     Big Game
    
    P.S.  Is Ric Flair really WWF Champion ??

    Thanks 'Saw.  Nothing is worse than a rancid fantasy projected as
    fack, especially in the form a a topic-title.  Got to keep the file
    clean, don't we?  
    
    It's disappointing but not especially surprising that Midnight wasn't
    able to bring himself to, er, do the right thing.
    
    MrT

>    Thanks 'Saw.  Nothing is worse than a rancid fantasy projected as
>    fack, especially in the form a a topic-title.  Got to keep the file
>    clean, don't we?  
>    
>    It's disappointing but not especially surprising that Midnight wasn't
>    able to bring himself to, er, do the right thing.
    
I changed the title of the topic, so that individuals in here, RON or
otherwise, would be able to find the topic should they do a DIRECTORY.

The title as it was this morning was misleading, and new noters might
not be able to find the information they were seeking.  


Simple moderation task, nothing more....


'Saw

      Hasn't Houston been outta F-ball for 2-3 weeks now?  Why so much talk
    of a nothin subject?

    Funny how MrT shows up when he figures the heat is off over the
    Broncos. Now, he's kicking in a note a second ....
    
    What a joke.
    
    

    Whaddya blabbing about now, Midnight.  I was at a corporate meeting
    in Orlando, Florida, from Sunday morning until late Thursday night.
    They consciously decided to NOT have any E-Znet access there, so I
    was held incommunicado.  
    
    Friday I came in and to my horror, if not surprise, that /Robitussin
    main had welshed his bet.  On the brighter side, I felt very good
    about the performance of John (Big Bad John).  
    
    Too bad he got hurt.  Is he the best QB in the game or what.
    
    MrT

>    Too bad he got hurt.  Is he the best QB in the game or what.
    
     what.

    NOT

    A lot of back news to cath up on - and a lot of it isn't good ...
    
    First, the Oilers signed Jeff Query as a Plan B free agent. Query spent
    4 years with the Packers. A soild WR with 4.3 speed, he was also among
    the top punt returners in the NFC last year. Hence the Oilers filled a
    couple of spots in one stroke.
    
    Next, Jerry Gray, vet DB for the Rams is set to sign with Houston. He's
    no Ronnie lOtt, but is an experienced cover guy who can hit. No
    championship experience however.
    
    Now for the killer :
    
    The Oilers let Drew Hill go to Atlanta via Plan B. He signed a contract
    worth I believe $800,000, plus a $500,000 signing bonus.
    
    Only Jerry Rice has caught more passes for more yards in the last 6
    years. Last year Hill pulled in 90 recptions for over 1,100 yards, and
    as always was the Houston's leading clutch receiver. Even with (maybe
    despite of) the emergence of Haywood Jeffries, Hill was still Moon's
    number one option in the clutch.
    
    And Hill had planned to make 1992 his 12th and final season in the NFL.
    He wanted to spend it in Houston. 
    
    But typical of the penurious and redneck tactics of Bud Adams and Co. ,
    Hill was stuck on Plan B, and offered peanuts with the expectation that
    he would rather stay in Houston, swallow his pride and take whatever
    was offered.
    
    Suprise !  :-(
    
    The man can play, and still has at least 2 productive years ahead. The
    Oilers may be able to fill the void, since Tony Jones (who was also
    left unprotected), and Query both have what it takes, but can they show
    the consistent excellence of Hill ? I tend to doubt it.
    
    What makes it worse is that Hill has been jerked around over $$$ since
    he first put on the Oiler blue. Every time the front office jerks
    around a Hill, Moon, Kinnard, Childress ... it has an effect on the
    players.
    
    I'm beyond disgusted - just chalk up the Hill situation as yet another
    reason why the Oiler's front office ranks near the league's bottom. :-(
    
    And another reason why the Oilers had better win a Super Bowl real
    soon, because this ownership will mess up this team beyond repair
    inside of three years.
    
    Signed,
    
    The Disgusted Dr Midnight

      Still plenty o' room on the big Pats' bandwagon Doc! And /Don cain
    get you good seats!
    
                                 Denny

    	Hey Doc, if Glanville was such a terrible coach how come Hill
    went over to play for him?
    
    				/Don

    re .558
    
    The devil you know is better ....
    
    Look Slush, some Oiler players had a big problem with Glanville, others
    didn't. Mostly it was based on how much of a threat to Jerry's ego the
    player was. 
    
    Drew is a pretty unassuming guy, and the money was big, so off he went.
    
    Doc

    The Oilers don't have Tony Jones to pick up the slack for
    Hill......Atlanta signed BOTH Hill and Jones via Plan B!!!
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

    Hey Doc,  The Soilers (tm) also lost Tony Jones to Falcons.
    
    You're welcome,
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    John, you have any room on the (gag) Cowboys bandwagon ?
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. Denny, make room on the Patsies, I'm getting closer to joining all
    of the time ... Holovak is making Herzeg look like Bobby Bethard ...:-(

    	Hey Doc, if you sit wif' us you have to bring your own drool
    cup.
    
    				/Don

    What do I need a drool cup for ? And tell me, was Holovak a klutz with
    the Pats ?

    Oh, Doc, Mike Holovak was as imaginitive as an android with the Pats.
    He was lucky that he had a pretty good QB in Parilli, a good pass
    catcher in Capeletti and a darned good defensive line (Hunt, Antwine,
    Dee and Eisenhower). But he never impressed me as the kind of guy who
    could compete with Stram in Dallas/KC, Ewbank or the guy in SD (damned,
    mental brownout). I used to get the feeling that he cow towed to the
    local media by highlighting BC grads (I know the Pats had territorial
    rights but there really wasn't that much talent in Art Graham, Jimmy
    Colclogh....). Trading for John Huarte dredged up thoughts of ND
    cronyism. 
    
    Sorry but he never impressed me as a coach.
    
    Rich
    

    Doc, the Cowboys bandwagon always has room.  In terms of the Oilers,
    they have really gotten hurt by Plan B this year.  Their Run  'n'
    Shoot will be significantly affected by their WR losses.  Too bad,
    since I always like Texas teams to do well.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    Don't feel bad Rich, I'm not impressed by Holovak as a GM ....
    
    re John D.
    
    It didn't have to happen. If the WR's are the most important part of
    the O, do you leave 5 of them unprotected as the Oilers' did ? Hell 
    no ! Would the Saints leave 4 LB's unprotected ? Nope ...
    
    Now the Oilers have lost Hill and Jones.
    
    Which means the lineup looks like :
    
    H. Jeffires, E. Givens, C. Duncan, J. Query, L. Harris .... Query is no
    Drew Hill, IMO (I hope I'm wrong), and Tony Jones had rare speed ...
    the type that scared defenses like no one else could (somewhere in the
    4.15 - 4.2  range). 
    
    The thing is, I don't see Jones getting more quality minutes in
    Atlanta, with Hill, Rison, Haynes, Dixon, and ???? (brainlock). He
    would ahve almost certainly been starting in Houston with Hill's
    absence. I guess it was the good 'ole boys trying to play hardball yet
    again ...
    
    Like I've said before, give the Oilers three years - they'll be 2nd
    division ...

    Pritchard?  Is he Bronco-bound?

    As per Brooks' request....from TSN:
    
    The Oilers were shocked when receiver Drew Hill signed a one-year Plan
    B contract with Atlanta for $800,000, including $500,000 up front. 
    Hill took $250,000 less than he would have made in Houston.  Some of
    his teammates, including best friend Haywood Jeffires were angry
    because Owner Bud Adams didn't guarantee the last year of Hill's
    contract.  "This is one of the saddest days of my life," Jeffires said.
    "Drew didn't want to go out like this.  He just wanted to be treated
    right.  They didn't leave him any alternative.  Losing Drew really
    hurts us.  He didn't think management respected him enough after
    everything he's accomplished.  When you expect to go to the Super Bowl,
    you have to do what it takes to keep your best players.  This tells me
    we're going backward."  Added strong safety Bubba McDowell, "I'm very
    surprised, but that shows how they do things around here.  They let
    their good players go.  What did we get for Drew and Tony Jones (a
    receiver who also signed with Atlanta)?"  .....Losing receivers Hill,
    Jones and Alex Johnson (to NE) leaves the Oilers with 5 receivers who
    played last season.  They signed GB free agent Jeff Query for an
    outside spot.  "It made me sick to my stomach when I heard Drew was
    gone," qb Warren Moon said.  "We've got a lot of good receivers, but
    Drew was the one defenses concentrated on.  I has so much confidence in
    him.  Losing Drew puts more pressure on Haywood's and (Ernest Givins's)
    shoulder."  Leonard Harris, who has been Hill's backup for 5 years
    inherits the starting job. .....The coaches are hoping that Plan B free
    agent Jerry Gray will be insureance in case cb Richard Johnson does not
    recover from a knee injury. ....The Oilers were rather stunned by his
    departure.  Without receivers Hill, Tony Jones and Alex Hohnson, the
    Oilers' run and shoot offense doesn't look so imposing anymore.  "I'm
    kind of surprised," Oilers Coach Jack Pardee said.  "When you leave 4
    receivers unprotected, you expect to lose one or two, but not three. 
    It puts us in a numbers bind."  And that clearly stirs joy in Jerry
    Glanville, who couldn't resist the opportunity to stick the pointed toe
    of one of his urban cowboy boots deep into his old team.
    
    Live from Charger Central......Glenn

    Thanks Glenn. Actually I understood that the $500,000 is a *bonus* in
    addition to the 800K base salary ... but I might be wrong.
    
    Anyhow, it just goes to show what I said. The Oiler's front office is
    run by idiots at best, and good ole boy rednecks at worst.
    
    Why *wouldn't* they guarantee the last year of Hill's contract ? Afraid
    he wouldn't make the final cut ?
    
    I hate to say this ... but I'm glad Glanville twisted the knife.
    Moreover, I do NOT expect Moon, Givens, or Jeffries for that matter, to
    finish their careers in an Oiler uniform.
    
    Look at the track record :
    
    Kinard, Highsmith, White, McDowell, Lathon, now Hill and Jones.
    
    Mind you, I've my share of white Oilers screwed as well (Ray Childress
    comes to mind his rookie year), but the mosta acrimonious cases always
    seem to be with the boys - uh black guys ... :-(
    
    Thank God for Plan B ... if unrestricted free agency ever hits the NFL,
    the Oilers will hit the cellar in two years.

    Midnight, your views of the white "good ole boy redneck" vs. the poor
    black athlete are becoming all too predictable.  The owners realize
    that to win the SB you have to have the best athletes available, and
    today that means a large number of black players.  Didn't Marino have
    some contract trouble with Miami ?
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    I'd figure you'd say that.
    
    Sorry John R, but live in Houston for a while and see what I mean. If
    it was an occasional screwup sure.
    
    But Moon fighting for a bonus (and Moon said it was the first time EVER
    in his career, even back into college - where someone was less than
    forthright with him) ...and Hill getting jerked around for YEARS over
    money until he finally said to hell with it ... White holding
    out...Jones leaving....Terry Kinard's situation ...
    
    If I'm predictable, it's because I see a predictable pattern. Don't
    slam the messenger.
    
    And FWIW, I praise the management in San Francisco, Washington, New
    York, and LA. I've done it in this file more than once. And last time I
    checked, the front office was still white.
    
    Try again, I knwo what I'm talking about here.
    
    doc

    Since most of the Oiler's players are black, doesn't it stand to reason
    that the instances of contract disputes with black players would also
    be higher?

    It's the TYPE of disputes Mac, and the tone they take. If you've lived
    there as longa s I did, and watched the way it's conducted, you'd
    understand better. I consistently see a low regard for a player's
    self-respect (and please note, I said it wasn't totally color - but the
    'plantation' mentality is still in force) ... and (grudgingly believe
    me) even the media admits that the players (in most cases) are not
    asking for the moon.
    
    As for rooting for them - I'm deep in soul-search mode. I'm looking at
    the Cowboys with something less than total contempt.
    
    And THAT ought to tell you something - only the Celtics are as low on
    the food chain as Dallas is ...
    
    Doc

    	So maybe Glanville wasn't the problem after all.  I hate to
    find myself in agreement with MorT, but Jerry has done a pretty
    good job with the Falcons.
    
    				/Don

    In case you haven't heard yet...
    
    
    Gene Shalit reviewed the new Babe Ruth movie this morning and said that
    they used a pinch runner for 2 of Babe's 3 last game home runs.  But,
    what does Gene Shalit know about movies anyway?  
    
    Also, no news yet about Jim McMahon being traded, but I'll be sure to
    get the message across when I hear...
    
    Hawk
     

    Doc,  sorry if it came across as a slam, it was not meant to.  I
    understand that being black you face a certain amount of discrimation
    (both overt & covert) that I probably can not relate to, and that ofetn
    you have better insights into when you are being discriminated against.
    
    My comment was probably too harsh, the intent was to demonstrate that
    whenever something happens to a black athelete it is not always because
    they are black.  Rallying to someone's defence because of their color
    without regard to what they have or have not done seems to me as
    reverse discrimination.  It paints all the rest of us non-blacks as
    unable, unwilling to make rational decisions and that it is pretty
    broad brush IMO.  Why can't people accept that things happen that may or
    may not be color related, but raising the red flag each time only
    perpetuates things ?
    
    Sorry for the speech,
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
     

    Glanville walked into a mother lode of talent /Don, not to take
    anything away from the man - he *has* grown as a coach and person (I
    still maintain that he would have only taken the Oilers so far as head
    coach) - but he still has big flaws as a game coach (al la Dean Smith),
    and still has a few things to prove.
    
    Doc

    I think Glanville is very effective at taking a team that is a
    perrenial doormat and getting them to a couple levels below the top. He
    didn't have the talent in Houston to go all the way yet, with his "us
    against the rest of the NFL" mentality, he got the players to believe
    in themselves and, at the same time, got them to totally forget Bum
    Phillips.
    
    In Atlanta, he took a team with little or no self-image and hoppped on
    the tails of the Braves. He strove to erase all the bad memories and
    got new uniforms. 
    
    He may lack the finer points of coaching that a Shula or Gibbs has
    refined but his enthusiasm and drive did for Atlanta and Houston what I
    see MacPhearson doing for New England.
    
    Rich
    

    re .578

>>    Rallying to someone's defense because of their color without regard 
>>    to what they have or have not done seems to me as reverse discrimination.

    Give me a _little_ credit guy. I stated why I say what I say.

    I guess it gets a little wearisome for me because it is so often
    assumed that blacks rush the barricades blindly in all cases. Which
    often puts some of us in a spot where we have to place caveats on our
    support, or apologize for it.

    I do not. It is easy to paint me with the brush when I drill the Oilers
    for their front office practices, yet ignore my commentary 
    condemning Mike Tyson (I take no pleasure in it, but I do call 'em as I
    see 'em).

>>    It paints all the rest of us non-blacks as unable, unwilling to make 
>>    rational decisions and that it is pretty broad brush IMO.  

    Wrong John. It paints the Houston Oiler front office (read : Bud Adams) as 
    incompetent managers at best, and at worst paints them as being 
    narrow-minded, cheapskate, rednecks that can not put aside petty,
    regressive attitudes for the sake of a dollar. A front office that
    seems to have a general problem treating men like men and a particular
    problem with black players, and too !*#(ing stupid to realize that it 
    will effect their bottom line.

    I have said nothing - nor will I say anything that reflects on 'all the
    rest of you non-blacks'. I have considerably more regard for you, Rich,
    Nazz, Hendry, /Don, et al than that.

>>    Why can't people accept that things happen that may or may not be color 
>>    related, but raising the red flag each time only perpetuates things ?
    
    Why can't this person ? Because I don't raise the red flag unless I
    feel it needs to be. If I raise it often (IYO), ask, "Why does it keep
    getting raised ?", instead of "Why doesn't he keep the flag down ?"

    Because to accept that front office buffoonery is indeed color related -
    to accept it without speaking out or fighting back, just makes the
    situation worse. The real sin often isn't the bad perpetrated by the
    evil, but the nothing done by the good. 

    Al Campanis proved a few years back that institutional racism is strongest 
    in the front offices of pro sports. How can I shut my eyes to it ?

    And to say that raising the red flag perpetuates things is like saying
    that MADD encourages drunk driving. Don't shoot the messenger, don't
    play "Don't Worry Be Happy" around me when Rome burns (excuse mixed
    metaphors). Consider the message. I believe honest confrontation is the
    best medicine for this cancer. Ignoring it is the worst possible thing
    you can do.

    Regards,

    Doc          

         
    Yeah, Doc, but we're all prejudiced by your opinions of the Boston
    Celtics... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    Doc, agree with most of your note.  I will put away the broad brush.
    Having lived in Texas for a thrid of my life I have seen firsthand
    a lot of what you fight against, and I am also fighting against the
    same things.  Those who know me in person understand how I feel about
    race equality.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
    
    P.S. I will save you a seat next to me on the Cowboys bandwagon.

    	Just because people don't want to hear what Doc says doesn't
    mean it ain't true, but Glanville is still a good coach and Russell
    was better than Chamberlain.  8^)
    
    				/Don
      

    From TSN :
    
    The Oilers lost their chance at getting a good kicker out of college
    when Roman Anderson (fromerly of UH) signed with the Minnesota Vikings.
    Anderson (who played under Oiler coach J. Pardee in college) said, "I
    really wanted to play in Houston, but Minnesota offered more money."
    Anderson was to provide competition for Al Del Greco.
    
    Chalk another one up for the cheapskate Oiler front office ... :-(

    I read lasted week that DE Sean Jones announced his retirement. Does
    anyone know the scoop ?
    
    Also, I'd be interested in learning more about 6th round pick Mario
    Bailey WR/Washington. He ate Michigan's lunch in the Rose Bowl, and
    outplayed Desmond Howard every which way. Looks like a steal ....

It was in the papers here that Sean Jones did indeed announce his retirement.  
From the tone of the blurb I read, it was unclear if he meant it, or if it was
another contract manuver.

=Bob=

I read that the Olier's opinion is the this is a ploy to avoid having to
pay fines for missing camp while he tries to get a new contract.

TTom

Super Mario will be a pretty good reciever in the R&S, Doc. He's got decent
speed, better than the scouts said, and he's smart enough to find the seems
in the zone. He'd fit the bill as one of the small inside recievers if he's 
got the guts to take the hits over the middle. He's got decent hands also.

Basically he's got all the tools the Oilers will have to see if he's got the
guts to take the hits over the middle and the body to bounce back after the
hits.

He'll have to be taught to run disciplned patterns because he was basically 
a fly and simple crossing pattern reciever in college. 

As always it's a crap shoot and time will tell. He could end up better than 
Howard or he could end up in traction after the first week...


Metz

    re. Sean jones
    
    I was on vacation last week and I saw Roy Fireside interview Howie
    Long. The topic of Sean Jones came up and Howie and Sean are very
    close friends, Sean is the godfather to one of Long's children.
    Sean is currently a stock broker for one of the top firms in LA
    and plans to go to Law School to study tax law. 
    
    Fireside asked if Jones early retirement was a contract ploy and
    Long said no that Jones is feed up with Oilers management and then
    Long said look want Houston is doing to Moon and he said you don't
    treat a good quarterback that way, but that is how the Houston
    management is.
    
    
    mike
    

    
    Jest to keep Doc's spn going,  I heard that Warren Moon broke a_arm
    yesterday.
    
    Somebody musta run & shot him up I guess!
    
    I remain,
    wondering who didit?
    Kev
    

    Doc was seen yesterday wondering "why... why... why...."
    
    

    The Oilscum beat the hapless teddy bears tonite, 24-7.
    
    JaKe
    

    I sent Dr. 12:00 mail today... no response yet... will see if he's
    breathing or not later...