Conference 7.286::sports_91

Well, I'd bet on the following scernario.

Magic and Larry are pretty good friends.  They came into the league together,
and I'd be willing to bet that they leave the league togehter.

Imagine the last Lakers-Celtics game of the season they both quit.  Well,
there'd be two, actually.  Last in LA, last in Boston.  

Don't tell me that the FantasticBall NBA will milk THAT for all it's worth....


'Saw

    Saw you forget that Magic was woulda been a jr his rookie year, while
    Lawwy was a 5th year Sr when MAgic pasted him in the NCAA finals.

    
    > They came into the league together,
    > and I'd be willing to bet that they leave the league togehter.
    
    Don't think so, unless Magic decides to retire with plenty of
    basketball left in him, or unless Larry makes like Kareem and hangs on
    past any and all usefulness.  Magic is three years younger not to
    mention healthier, right?
    
    glenn
    

    Didn't Larry just have a Triple/Double the other night?  Injuries
    not-withstanding the guy can still play.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

I thought I'd heard some murmurings that Magic was thinking about hanging
up his pumps.

I know that there is a disparity in the ages.  Larry is gonna be 35 or 36, 
and Magic is like my age (32 or so).  


Oh well, it was just a thought....

'Saw

Just to clear up this discussion on ages -- Magic is 31, Bird
is 53.

    WOW, LARRY looks great for 53 :)
    

    Bird has an option year left on his contract.  It's not a bad option.
    He can retire, and collect $4.87 million.  Or, he can play, collect
    the $4.87 million, PLUS earn a $2.25 million salary for playing.
    
    Since Bird practicallyt has the first nickel he ever made, I expect
    him to be back around CHristmas next year, after his back operation.
    Whether he can play or not remains to be seen, but I think he'll try.
    
    Magic has a good three years left in him, more if Jerry West could find 
    him a decent back-up.
    
    NAZZ

    The reason Kareem Jaboring hung on so long is that he handed his
    money over to a crooked financial handler who jobbed him of nearly
    all his dough... he was broke, had to play to recapitalize.
    
    What a sad spectacle it was to see him toiling for the green backs
    down the stretch there.  
    
    MrT

    >What a sad spectacle it was to see him toiling for the green backs
    >down the stretch there.  
    
    Hey, it wasn't that sad!  I know what you think of the DH, but Kareem
    finished as more or less the designated post option.  And still a very
    viable post option.  It's a wonder that more players haven't tried to
    learn the sky hook.
    
    Dan

    Didn't Kareem lose a bundle when his house burnt down?  (I know it
    burned, but mebee he did it to *make* money, given his financial woes
    ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    	Before the Sky Hook there was the hook shot.  I'm surprised
    more players don't use it.  Magic added it to his repertoire a few
    years ago and it's a lethal scoring option.  I know it's boring compared
    to slam dunks etc. but the hook is tough to stop even if you're
    not 7' 4".
    
    				/Don

Is the '91-92 season Bird's option year ?  I thought the option was
'92-93 or '93-94.

My feelings on the Celtics aside, I'll miss Larry Bird.  You gotta
love a player who gives his all every time on the court, and has
such a passion for winning.  He is the ultimate competitor.

On the bright side, I've been waiting for his retirement for some
time.  After moving here in 1980, when Larry's gone I should finally
be able to get my first tickets to an NBA game, without having to
know somebody, or pay scalper's prices.  Maybe even very good seats !


re: Magic

He's definitely got *at least* 3 more years in him.  His leadership
and crunch-time abilities are unsurpassed.  If they could stretch
Jabbar as far as they did, they'll do the same with this guy.

Magic will still be a star when Bird is just a memory.

Just Curiouis how many rings magic has compared to bird...I think magic has 2
more but that doesnt seem right ...:-)...  I dont think bird will get another
ring in his career although I do think that in the 1994 Magic gives up 3/4 of
his salary to sign some key players and The Lakers win the championship and
magic retires and makes a 1,000,000,000 in endorsments..(Second only to Jordan
2,000,000,000)

    	Bill Russell's got 11 rings.  More rings than fingers.  But
    that's when it was *easy* to win championships, or so some would
    have you believe.  8^0
    
    				/Don

>I think magic has 2 more but that doesnt seem right ...
    
    You're right.  It shouldn't seem right.  The refs stole one in '84 and
    gave it from Magic to Larry, otherwise it would be 6-2.  As it is, it's
    "only" 5-3.
    
    Dan

    Yep ... jsut like a Jee-Haad member - don't bring up rings in the
    Bird-Magic 'comparison' (so-called because Magic wins hands down of
    course), but mention Russell, and watch Slusher and Penny Rieu have
    woodies mentioning those 11 rings back in the days of a weaker, smaller
    NBA ....HAHAHAHaHAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!
    
    Doc

    re Magics health:  Hasn't he been gimping along on a bum knee and bad
    hamstrings over the last few years?  I know it's not the same as a bad
    back, but I'd still question the predictions of longevity in here.

    	Doc, Magic has a 5-3 advantage in rings over Larry.  Russ has
    an 11-2 advantage in rings over Wilt.  If you call that equitable
    I certainly don't ever want you as my accountant!
    
    
    				/Don

 Bird will be back next year you can bank on it....Like Nazz said the guy has
 the first nickel he ever made and when you can come back for 140,000,000
 more nickels you come back unless of course it would mean the end of your
 life....

 when he retire he has his resturant and car dealerships plus I would imagine
 some property to substain him....

 the good news is that the Doctor who did Montana's surgery thinks that Bird's
 will be much the same and he can recover in 7 weeks or so just like Montana..

 mike

    5-3 magic over bird, 11-2 Russ over Wilt...Makes perfect sense to me.
    Just like today (compared to the 60's) One man does not a team make.
    Wilt dominated the game in his day but it still wasnt enough to win
    Multiple championships.  Bill Russel and the Celtics were a dominate
    team therefore 11 championships.  Who is better Russel of Wilt, cant
    really be said, russ has 11 rings does that make him better, no, wilt
    has more numbers does that make him better no.  If Bill Russell played
    on all the teams and years that Wilt did he would have had numbers like
    Chamberlin.  But russell had a team around him to help with the work 
    load,...Therefore he got compensated with 11 championship rings.  How
    many does good ol Kareem have ?
    								M_Air_B

    it takes a complete effort on al parts, heck in the clincher
    
    may 2  of the year  1968, Baily Howell added 30 points, and hes wasnt
    known  for being a big point producer..
    
    dinz
    

Dinz, keep at it my man, one of these day's you'll learn to type! 

8^)))))))))



Steve

 I believe Kareem has 6. 5 with LA and one with the Bucks....

 

    Karrem has won NBA rings in
    1971 Bucks
    1980 Lakers
    1982  "
    1985  "
    1987  "
    1988  "
    
    
         I count 6 rings...........
    
    REK

    REK,
    
    Didya need someone to help you counting that high?? ;-)
    

    No, but where were you when I needed help in counting that high?
    
    REK

    Lord Of The Woodies ... I'm spitting McLean burger all over my terminal
    ... (of course that's probably the best place for one) ...

    
    Why do the anti-Celts always point to Russell's teammates in
    comparisons between him and Wilt, but never point out that Magic played
    on a team with 4 #1 draft picks for a good part of his career?

Because it's just simply not true Bruce! Don't you know that by now?
Nothing is real in Hollywood!


Steve

    re .35
    
    Probably has something do with the fact that DJ, Parrish, McHale, and
    Ainge were all high draft picks themselves.
    
    Ergo : Larry was surrounded with some prime talent too.
    
    Conclusion : Bruce May's contention is a non sequitor.
    
    There was often a much more serious talent/coaching gap between Wilt's
    teams and Russell's.
    
    Now why can't the Jihad use more well reasoned arguments ?
    
    Dr Midnight - Again triumphant ....

	Okay Doc, Nazz pointed out a long long time ago that from the
1965/66 - 1967/68 seasons Wilt's Philly team had the better record, and in 
two of the three years Russ took the Celtics to victory against the Sixers 
with them holding the home court advantage.  Also Wilt's 1968/69 Laker team 
had the better record and home court advantage and Russ lead the Celtics to 
victory again.  That's four years where the stilt had the better team and 
in three of them Russ came out the champion.  Bill Russel won when he had 
the better team, and he won when he was underdog.  

				/Don

    
>    There was often a much more serious talent/coaching gap between Wilt's
>    teams and Russell's.                       ^^^^^^^^
    
 About time you admitted Red was a genuis....

 ;^)
 

    Red wasn't a genius, Butch Van BredaKoff was a complete idiot that's
    all ....

    Ducker Don ... Russ and Wilt played together from 60-69 ... and you
    attempt to seize upon 4 years. Most people will grant you one year - at
    most - that Wilt's team was clearly superior.
    
    But those must be some strong Green Bifiocals you've got on - why am I
    not suprised ?

    	Once again I has to beat Doc upside the haid with the troof.
    In 1966 the Celtics finished a couple of games behind the Sixers,
    in 1967 it was at least 8-9 games behind the Sixers and in 1968
    at last as much, maybe more.  Now if we cain't use the regular season
    as a measuring stick what the hail cain we use?  Doc's fabricated
    system that says poor old Wilt always had boobs surrounding him
    while Russ played on a juggernaut?  No Doc, the troof will be my
    witness.  Wilt had the better team four times and won a paltry one
    time.  His 7th game disappearing act in 1968 in Philly and 1969
    in Los Angeles would make old Houdini proud.  And remember that
    Stilt was there when the Sixers totally collapsed in 1968 from a
    3-1 lead in the series, losing twice on his home court.
    
    				/Don_"The_Troof"_Robichaud

    Let's see ... should I wipe the floor ith you ruthlessly, or with slow
    deliberate strokes ?
    
    The latter ....
    
    The 69 Lakers featured their Big Three for a combined total of what 5
    games all season ? And were 'coached' by the boob Butch Van Bredakoff ?
    
    And Don-ce, for you to seize on Wilt's game 7 injury as a 'disappearing
    act' leads all sober-minded citizens to believe that you have been beat
    on the head with something even harder and more blunt than the Truth !

 WoW A CLEAN KNOCKOUT by the Slasher....anyone who reads .43 can clearly 
 how dizzy the good Doctor is....I mean he sounds like a_certain other
 noter....

mike

    Mikey, note .44 of yours reeks with desparation ....the Slash-gasm that
    you had in that note is proof postive that I am winning.
    
    Not to mention the fack that your obvious Jihad bias makes your
    credibility at best a rumor ...

 Doc,  credibility? who needs it. credibility is the 50 cents in the
 1.50 coffee at the resturant. Personally the buck coffees at DD are
 better....

 credibility is way overratted....besides the facks(tm) clearly speak
 for themselves unlike Wilt at crunchtime of a championship....

 mike

    
    Those sixer teams were good, of course not as good as the celtics,
    
    Hal  Greer was one helluva  guard.. 
    
    ditto on the DD  coffee  mike
    
    dinz
    

                                                
    Russell got to be his own coach for a while.  Wilt was never allowed 
    to be a coach.  Clearly, this fundamental difference is what unjustly 
    led to poor Wilt's downfall with those superior teams and the 
    public's perception of him vis-a-vis Russell.  As a coach, Wilt 
    coulda called his own press conferences to satisfactorily explain 
    away any mysterious absences and put the matter to rest before it was
    allowed to fester.  Additionally, Wilt's coaching abilities and his 
    recognition of the importance of an unselfish approach to the game 
    would have allowed for greater ball distribution and the elevation of
    his unsung teammates to the status only previously accorded to Celtic
    players.  Lastly, had Wilt's genius been properly recognized, he
    undoubtedly would have foregone those stints with the San Diego
    Conquistadores of the ABA and the World Professional Volleyball League, 
    and rightly rose through the Laker management ranks to be comfortably 
    seated in Jerry West's current job right now.   
    
    A tragedy is what it is, really.  Only a horrible transpiration of
    events, orchestrated by the likes of Bill Russell, Butch van Breda
    Kolff and Red Auerbach prevented all of it from happening.  It's time
    for the NBA to own up to what it did to poor Wilt and make amends...
    
    glenn
     

	One last time and that'll be that.  Wilt's "injury" happened after 
he lad led the Lakers (who had Baylor, West and Stilt all healthy, who won 
over 50 games that year and who had a 2-0 advantage in the series heading 
into Boston) to a 20 point deficit.  Now with "the greatest player in the 
game" on the bench the Lakers got the Celtics lead to low single digits.  
One year prior Stilt scored a whopping two points in the crucial fourth 
quarter of the 7th game in Philadelphia and after the loss he blamed the 
coach, his teammates, everybody in Philly except for where the blame 
should've been laid.  

	Then in 1970 after an awesome 30+ points 20+ rebound performance
in game six against the Knicks he let a cripple who scored a whopping four 
points in the game totally intimidate him into yet another 7th game gag and 
a Knick blowout.  Notice how Doc doesn't dispute that four times Wilt had 
the better team and in head to head playoff competition his record is a 
less than sterling 1-3, prefering instead to whine and complain just like 
his idol Wilt did.  Chamberlain in crucial deciding playoff games, went 
into the tank so many times he should qualify to draw a pension from the 
New England Aquarium.

				/Don

 After last night the legend will grow even more upon Larry's truimphant
 return....

 glad we got the stinko blowout out of the way early.....


 mike

    	I'm not so sure Mike.  As a precaution I will stop using my
    Dennis Rodman shirt as a substitute when I run out of toilet paper!
    8^o
    
    				/Don

 >glad we got the stinko blowout out of the way early.....
    
    Nope, the stinko blowout is still out there waiting to surface.  Last
    night was the "No Real Point Guard, Slow Death game".  The stinko
    blowout will probably come in game 3 in Auburn Hills, followed by the
    not-quite-so-stinko blowout-thanks-to-the-refs-whines-/Don.
    
    Anyone have Chamberlain's and Russell's playoff stats, and if possible
    head-to-head playoff stats, so we don't have to rely on /Don's "memory"
    of events from the Dark Ages.
    
    Dan

 Here we go...Don clearly states the past and all Dan can ask for is Mano
 0 Mano stats hahhaaaaa give me a break will ya. Wilt was a choker that's
 all there is to it...

 the pistons were a thumpin and bumpin and play their bestest defense and 
 couldn't loose a pathetic looking bunch of Celtics minus Larry and we should
 worry Don?? I think not. If we have no Bird and we're down 3-0 then we'll
 worry...

 If I was you Dan I'd be worried about the return of Mullins to GS' lineup
 tonight. Ain't no way heil the Lakers can expect another 27 from flyin
 byron which should allow GS to sag the lane and negate some of the Lakers
 height advantage...

 mike

    Celtics are toast.  They were toast before this series even started. 
    To think otherwise is foolish.
    
    Mike, what's this "we" shit?
    
    :^)
    
    Mark.

 >If I was you Dan I'd be worried about the return of Mullins to GS' lineup
 >tonight. Ain't no way heil the Lakers can expect another 27 from flyin
 >byron which should allow GS to sag the lane and negate some of the Lakers
 >height advantage...
    
    Where's the out?  I don't see it.  If the Lakers continue to dominate
    the Warriors, I know you're gonna claim that they've got this easy
    schedule and it must be a conspiracy, but with statements like the
    above, I don't quite see how you're gonna pull it off.
    
    Dan

    	Sorry Dan, but if someone showed up here claiming to have proof
    that the world is indeed flat I wouldn't waste time arguing the
    point.  You and Doc can use the rest of this note to wax the woody
    about how the Celtics stole and cheated their way to *16* World
    Championships, what a great clutch performer Wilt was, etc...  I
    can only guess what a reasonably well adjusted person would think about
    it though.                           
    
    				/Don

 The out is the obvious Dan, the league and the refs conspired to give the
 Lakers all the call....

 Markie, I'm not John Hendry, if I want to say "we" about my teams I do. I
 respect John's opinion on the subject but I disagree.

 mike

    >	Sorry Dan, but if someone showed up here claiming to have proof
    >that the world is indeed flat I wouldn't waste time arguing the
    >point.
    
    You scared of objective evidence, Slasher?  Yes, I believe you are.
    
    Dan

    Let's change this note's title to something more apropos :
    
    
    
    Leave Larry, just LEAVE !

	Anyone have the Wilt's box scores for 1968 Game 7 Conference Final,
1969 Game 7 NBA Championship and 1970 Game 7 NBA Championship?  A free 
David Copperfield ticket to anyone who can provide the information.

				/Don

    David Copperfield ticket?  I get it...now you see it, now you don't.
    
    Mark.

    	Well Mark, I figure if someone can get the information on three
    of the greatest disappearing acts in NBA history, that person deserves
    to go see one who does that kind of stuff for a living.
    
    				/Don

    Won't be nuthin' compared to the disappearing act /Don will do if
    someone answers my question.
    
    Dan

    	Dan reminds me of Joe McCartney.  He used to swagger around
    Congress telling everyone about all the "evidence" he had in his
    briefcase when all he really had in there was a bottle of booze.
    8^o
    
    				/Don

The day Dan actaully does some research to support one of his "theories" instead
of begging for it from other people is the day the yankees win the pennant again


:-)

Metz

                                                       
    > Anyone have Chamberlain's and Russell's playoff stats, and if possible
    > head-to-head playoff stats, so we don't have to rely on /Don's "memory"
    > of events from the Dark Ages.
    
    Is this then a suggestion that in those years that Wilt did play on the
    better teams that he stood tall and proud while the rest of the team
    went into the tank around him?  Or do we have another theory to explain
    how Wilt could be superior and still have his team chalk up excellent
    losses?
    
    glenn
     

    The reason I asked for the stats is that the last time this came up,
    someone posted 'em and Chamberlain fairly dominated Russell.
    
    I'm not gonna sum up a player's career based on a Green Docker's memory
    of 3 games.
    
    Dan

    
    Playoff stats total (I don't have defensive stats like steals or 
    blocks, supposedly Russell's strengths; or head-to-head stats):
    
    Chamberlain		160 G	22.5 PPG   24.5 RPG
    Russell		165 G   16.2 PPG   24.9 RPG	
    
    Wilt's regular season scoring average was 30.1; I don't have Russell's
    but I'm guessing it's somewhere close to 16.  Wilt's regular season 
    rebound average was 22.9, Russell's 22.5.
    
    While we don't have anything for the defensive half of the game that
    most cite in favor of Russell, it does appear that on the offensive and
    rebounding end of the game Chamberlain suffered a drop-off from his 
    regular season performance while Russell didn't.  Draw whatever 
    conclusions you prefer...
    
    glenn
    

    I think the definitive statement was offered by Jerry West after the
    Celts beat the Lakers in '69 when he stated basically that Russell was
    one of the all-time greatest clutch players and that if the Lakers had
    Russell,they would have won the championship.  i don't have the facts
    just opinion and from what I remember from that era, Russell was
    considered by most to be the go-to guy in the playoffs, not Wilt.
    I'm not denigrating Wilt, but IMO, Russell was the Man in the playoffs.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Toast wins game 2 - 109-103. Dee brown leads the charge. Series tied
    1-1. Bird played - 16 points.
    
    

    The *ONLY* stat useful in comparing Wilt and Russ would be the result
    of a poll of the players who were active in the NBA during that period.
    
    Why?  Because the stats indicating scoring, 'bounds, assists, etc. just
    can't measure the value of either player to his team.  "Value" can be
    defined as leadership, or being the go-to guy when the chips are down,
    or the guy who makes the impossible pass or block when the game is on
    the line, etc.  
    
    Those who can recall actually seeing these two players go head-to-head
    will no doubt disregard the stats, unless those numbers happen to
    back-up their position or contention.
    
    As in most cases, the numbers just can't accurately define the value of
    a player to a team, IMO.
    
    So, numbers aside, Russell was THE man.  Period.  Of course, my being a
    charter member of the "Hate Them Sixers" club has *nothing* to do with
    this opinion.  :*)
    
    lEe
    
    Lee

Also, stats will never show the intangibles.

Some players were BORN for playoffs.  They play adequately all year, but
somehow really shine.  Others have great seasons, but for some reason
are snake bit in the playoffs.

It all comes down to this overwhelming need to quantify, quantify, and 
to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that one is better than the other.
Freud would say that need stems from doubts as to the size of
one's penis (just checking to see if you read this far).

Again, I don't think that you can do that, because there are too many
intangibles....

'Saw

>It all comes down to this overwhelming need to quantify, quantify, and 
>to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that one is better than the other.


 11 championships 13 years with better players, with worst players how
 much more quantifing do we need to Saw....Russell owned Chamberlain
 when it counted. The records say so, I say so, Don says so.....

 mike

    	Like I've said  million times before nobody is saying Russ was
    the better player, but in head to head competition when "champeenships"
    were on the line Russ always played better.  Wilt had the better
    skills, but Russ was the winner.  And while I'm reminiscing about
    Stilt chokes, the absolute worst happened not against the Celtics,
    but against the Knicks, and not in the aforementioned game 7 either.  
    In game 5 of the 1970 Championship series Reed went down in the 3rd quarter,
    I think, and the Knicks put Dave Debusschre at center, all 6'6"
    of him and his great play on Wilt led the Knicks to victory.
    
    				/Don

    Slasher, do you find it interesting that when talking about Wilt vs.
    Russ, head to head competition and champeenships are not okay.  But
    when DoctorDoubleGooseEggs talks about Roger vs. Stew, we have to
    compare head to head and champeenships?
    
    Interesting.
    
    Mark.

    	You spoiled it for me Mark.  I was going to try to bait him
    in the Red Sox note with it.  00:00.00 is � right though.  I would
    rather have Stewart in a "champeenship" game than Roger.  Roger
    loses his cool and tries to throw the ball as fast as he can with
    the expected results.
    
    	Dan did you notice the whopping difference between Wilt's and
    Bill's stats?  The same stats you were crying out for just a little
    while ago?  8^o
    
    				/Don

    > You spoiled it for me Mark.  I was going to try to bait him
    > in the Red Sox note with it.  00:00.00 is � right though.  I would
    > rather have Stewart in a "champeenship" game than Roger.  Roger
    > loses his cool and tries to throw the ball as fast as he can with
    > the expected results.
    
    Hell, DrM couldn't even use this for Stew; he'd have to rely heavily on
    head-to-head, regular-season results.  Stewart himself is one excellent
    World Series up, two down-- thank the Lord for the hapless Giants. 
    Better post-season performance than Clemens, but nowhere near the big
    boys of the baseball postseason...
    
    glenn
    

    >	Dan did you notice the whopping difference between Wilt's and
    >Bill's stats?  The same stats you were crying out for just a little
    >while ago?  8^o
    
    Must be the frog hallugeons you've been licking, /Don.  Nobody's posted
    the stats I asked for.  I'll bet either Nazz or bill..g. has them
    somewhere.
    
    Dan

	Dan, let's say team A is up by 25 points on team B.  Team B has
a center, who for agruement's sake we'll call Wilt.  Now let's suppose that
Wilt, the center for team B scores 40 points in the game.  But 35 of them 
came after his team rolled up the 20+ point deficit and never got closer 
than say 20 points.  Now the center for team A, who we'll call Bill for
agruement's sake, scores 25 points but 20 of them came while team A was
building the large lead.  Now a 40-25 point disparity would seem to 
indicate that Wilt was better than Bill wouldn't it?  Now wouldn't it be 
wiser to look at those two fictional center's numbers in close, deciding games?

				/Don

    		 	G	FG%	FT%	PPG 	RPG
    
    Wilt - Reg Season	1045	.540	.511	30.1	22.9
    Wilt - Playoffs     160	.522	.465	22.5	23.2
    
    Russ - Reg Season	963	.440	.561	15.1	22.5
    Russ - Playoffs	165	.434	.603	16.2	24.4
    
    Wilt's FG%, FT%, and PPG all went down in the playoffs, while his
    rebounding remained about the same.  Russell's points went up slightly,
    as did his rebounds and FT%.  His shooting stayed about the same.
    
    NAZZ

>Now a 40-25 point disparity would seem to 
>indicate that Wilt was better than Bill wouldn't it?  Now wouldn't it be 
>wiser to look at those two fictional center's numbers in close, deciding games?
    
    No, it would be wiser to look at as many games as possible so the
    statistical anomalies such as the one you described get washed away.
    
    Dan

    
    Red Auerbach listed his top 12 alltime playoff performers in this 
    week's Sports Illustrated and Wilt Chamberlain wasn't even on the 
    friggin' list!  I loved it!  To the victors go the spoils!
    
    I didn't so much care about Wilt given his well-documented negative 
    baggage in big series and big games (clear back to the UNC upset over
    Kansas in the 1957 NCAAs-- one of the top 10 college upsets of all
    time), but I did think that Elgin Baylor deserved to be on that list
    somewhere...
    
    glenn
     
    

 Didn't see the list Glenn could you please reprint it. I agree though Baylor's
 61 points deserves some ink as well him being just one great all around player.
 The only Laker I ever really like except for whinny puss.....

 I imagine West's bomb must be amoungst them....as well as Whinny puss' game
 6 against philly in his rookie year...

 mike    

    Just got back, and I suppose this note is about Lary's overrated 
    game in Game 5 vs. the Pacers.   
    
    When ALbert compared it to Willis Reed, I almost died!   Reed had a
    messed up knee, and there is no way he should have played - but he did
    and provided the lift the Knicks needed against a great Laker team.
    
    Larry sat in the locker room, crying and whining, when he should have
    been a man and been in their all along.  And big cahoots - they were
    playing the frigging Pacers, not exactly a world-beater.
    
    The Celts would have beat the Pacers by a zillion in Game 5 if Shaw,
    Bird, and Lewis had remembered they have a guy named Parrish - who
    could score 60 points against the Pacers if they just gave him the damn
    ball.
    
    Larry did come back and provide a lift - but I'd say that Isiah's
    performance in Game 6 a few years back was bigger, and gutsier.  Reed's
    was a zillion times more gutsier.  McHale's playing on his messed up
    foot throughout the whole playoffs a few back was gutsier (as was
    Parrish playing with his injuries).  Lawwy just got a lot of press
    because he's Lawwy.
    
    And despite it all, the Celtics almost lost to an inferior team, on
    their HOME court.   Not exactly parade material!
    
    JD

    
    And yet another, typically un-biased, objectional reply, from 
    JD. You just gotta love it!! 8^)
    
    
    
    Steve

    Steve,
    
    I can rattle of much better playoff performances than Larry's:
    
    Reed in 69/70
    
    Magic Game 6 his rookie year.
    
    Isiah, Game 6 a few back.
    
    Larry's performance vs. Atlanta (the Larry-Dominique Duel)
    
    Worthy's Game 7 vs. the Pistons.
    
    Bill Russell, a half a dozen times.
    
    Elgin Baylor's 61.
    
    Mchale and Parrish in the series I mentioned.
    
    Cedric Maxwell and the "Jump on my back boys" series - that was
    inspirational, and WON a title!
    
    and I could go on.
    
    See Steve, it isn't anti-Larry, it's the truth.  When Bird went down I
    was in Champions in Atlanta.  The two guys next to me were Celtic fans
    -
    they stated crying and saying that someone must have cheap-shotted
    Larry (one guy claimed Person pushed Larry down!!!)   I looked at both
    of these poor excuses for humans, and simply said "I guarentee that
    Bird will be back, and that the Celtics will win.  There's no doubt
    about it.  he isn;'t hurt bad.  He'll be back.  Bet them a beer - which
    tasted good."
    
    Damn, this was the final game, unless he broke his leg, he'd play -
    that's a no brainer.
    
    Christ, you have Barkley coming off knee surgery playing his heart out
    - being tougher than Larry Legend every game. 
    
    Open the eyes, folks.  Both Parrish and McHale have sucked it up more
    with injuries than Larry Legend ever has.  
    
    JD

    JD, how did the B's choke when they were beaten by a better team?
    
    Mark.

    re .63
    
    Slasher, why don't also come up with the stats on Russell in Game 7 of
    the 1958 series vs the St.Louis Hawks ? You know the one where Bob
    Pettit scored 50 points to led the Hawks to a title ?
    
    Or how about Game 5 of the 1967 semis Philly vs Boston ?
    
    Or Game 5 of the 72 title series vs. the Knicks ?
    
    People, you haven't SEEN selctive vision, until you've seen a Green
    Docker in action ...

    As I'm sure you know Doc, Russell didn't play in the 1958 Finals,
    due to a knee injury.  So Petit's scoring and the Hawks' title should
    have an asterisk with them.
    
    NAZZ

    
>    Slasher, why don't also come up with the stats on Russell in Game 7 of
<    the 1958 series vs the St.Louis Hawks ? You know the one where Bob
>    Pettit scored 50 points to led the Hawks to a title ?
 
      Wilt wasn't in this series. I thought this argument was Wilt vs. Russ?
	   
 >   Or how about Game 5 of the 1967 semis Philly vs Boston ?
  
	Which makes the colaspe of the 68 Sixers' team to the Celtics after
        holding a 3-1 lead with the same team evem more of a downer for
        heartless Wilt...
  
  >  Or Game 5 of the 72 title series vs. the Knicks ?
   
	Russell already retired by then...


 Geez Doc you're reaching very badly here. keep it up and the whitecoats will
 soon be by....

 ;^)

    Mark,
    
    The Bruins had a better record than the Pens, hence the home ice
    advantage.  Once again, the Bruins aredepicted as underdogs, when they
    were favorites.  They choked Mark, plain and simple.  Just like lasted
    year, and year in, year out lately.  They get the ice advantage, then
    choke, ala North Carolina, and the Broons fans praise them....
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA (TM)
    
    DOC:
    
    Re Wilt in Game 5 in the 72 finals.  Big deal.  Willis Reed was hurt
    and the Knicks didn't have a real center - they had Jerry Lucas and
    some journeymen playing Wilt.  In the two finals Wilt played against
    Willis, Willis was MVP and the Knicks brought home the ring.
    
    JD

Whoa! JD on the loose!! I knew that the Bruins losing would make your 
year! BTW, I was only joshing you in my lasted reply, didn't mean to 
get your Irish up, although we know just the mere mention of Terry 
O'Reilly can do that! HAHAHAHAHAHA(tm)



Steve

As you all know, I'm NOT a Bruins fan.

But, I don't think that they choked.  Plain and simple, I think they were
outplayed.  Somewhere along the line, they stopped skating.  (I know about
that because I'm a Whalers fan, you see, and that's the Whalers' cardinal
sin)

The Pens then put on relentless pressure.  (Moog is human and can be
overcome)....

That's the way I see it....

'Saw

    Saw, 
    
    They stopped skating cuz it's hard to skate well with two hands around
    your neck.  When they weren't doing that, they were slashing or choking
    the chicken.
    
    
    Just the title of this note makes me laugh.  Larry Legend. 
    Sanctimonious Celtic fans can do that crap, but God forbid if Magic,
    Michael or the rest are called legends.  Larry has been the most
    overhyped athlete since Mohammid ALi, but at least Ali accomplished
    more than Larry did.  So, when was Larry's last ring, anyway?   Seems
    like a lONG time ago.....
    
    JD

    	DOCillogic� is rampant in this note.  It's even affecting JD!

                                              
    JD, you forgot the part where you're supposed to say with a straight
    face, "You see, I'm a Boston fan from waaaaaaaay back so I can 
    deliver outrageous criticisms with total objectivity and complete 
    credibility..."  You're slipping bigtime, bud.  ;-) 
    
    Honestly, I don't recall anyone saying that Bird's effort in Game 5
    versus Indiana was one of the alltime greatest in playoff history or 
    anything, nor that the Celtics accomplished anything that momentous in
    taking out the Pacers in the first round.  It was accorded the proper 
    recognition and perspective both in Boston and nationally: a guy who's 
    been hurting all year and will require major back surgery immediately 
    after the season probably had his best game of the year, when the 
    Celts most needed it.  No big deal; it was a game that should receive 
    attention but won't require Larry's uniform and shoes to be shipped 
    to Springfield either... 
    
    Oh, and by the way, Chuck Person *did* intentionally shove Bird to the
    floor in that game, but it wasn't when he got hurt.  It was at the end
    of the third quarter, I believe, and in typical Bird fashion he shook
    it off and no mention of the incident was made later.
    
    glenn
    

I think when JD was a little kid, some guy in a Celtic jacket stole
his lunch money.



8^)))))

    Glenn, hafta disagree with you on the media blitz on Larry's
    performance in game 5.  It was the lead story on many of the news
    broadcasts, and the Glob and Herald both overdid it as well.
    
    Sheet, Channel 7 even had a camera follow Larry from the locker room
    out onto the Garden floor to the cheering Jihad masses.
    
    Mark.

    >Oh, and by the way, Chuck Person *did* intentionally shove Bird to the
    >floor in that game, but it wasn't when he got hurt.  It was at the end
    >of the third quarter, I believe, and in typical Bird fashion he shook
    >it off and no mention of the incident was made later.
    
    If we're talking about the same play, I saw Person lay a pretty clean
    backpick on Bird, the kind of pick that gets set and executed probably
    10 times in every NBA game.  But Bird did the flop, perhaps justified,
    perhaps acting, and the floor was parquet so the whistle went off.  It
    wasn't mentioned because it didn't deserve mention except as yet
    another example of a homer call.
    
    Dan

   
    > Glenn, hafta disagree with you on the media blitz on Larry's
    > performance in game 5.  It was the lead story on many of the news
    > broadcasts, and the Glob and Herald both overdid it as well.
    
    Yeah, I agree that it was the media story of the day, the week,
    whatever, and the mindless local TV news especially eats that stuff up.  
    But the entire week before Bob Ryan was writing about how the Celtics 
    are old and tired and that Celtics fans *should* be worried because no 
    myth was going to carry them through this time.  Then Bird did go out 
    and play his best game even after smashing his face, and the Celts 
    ended up needing every bit of the effort.  That *did* deserve
    recognition, no matter how much we want to rant and rave about the
    overkill, and I'm sure most Celtics fans will remember the game.
    
    The game will not, as far as I'm concerned, join the handful of
    greatest games in Celtics' history.  In the short term to sell the
    newspapers and attract the viewers, it gets hyped, but I haven't heard
    any reputable writer yet suggest that it was Larry's finest hour...
    
    glenn
    

    
    > If we're talking about the same play, I saw Person lay a pretty clean
    > backpick on Bird, the kind of pick that gets set and executed probably
    > 10 times in every NBA game.  But Bird did the flop, perhaps justified,
    > perhaps acting, and the floor was parquet so the whistle went off.  It
    > wasn't mentioned because it didn't deserve mention except as yet
    > another example of a homer call.
    
    I don't think we are talking about the same play, unless your
    definition of a backpick involves extending the arms and pushing the 
    man in front of you who's breaking up the floor after a defensive 
    rebound...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn,
    
    I've been out of this note for about 2 weeks.  I read this note's
    title, and few of the recent replies. In my first reply I said I
    assumed that this note was harping on Larry's performance in Game 5 -
    and I disputed it as an all-time great game.  (Which you seem to agree
    upon.)
    
    I will say taht the national news sources and even the local Atlanta
    paper were praising Larry.  And the Celts fans in Atlanta were ranting
    and raving about it.  
    
    I'm glad you don't think it will be considered an all-time great.  It
    was average, In my eyes.  I've seen Larry have many better games.
    
    JD

>                -< That play not whistled 99 times out of 100 >-
    
    especially when performed by a Laker

    >unless your
    >definition of a backpick involves extending the arms and pushing the 
    >man in front of you who's breaking up the floor after a defensive 
    >rebound...                                        
    
    You've been listening to too much Tommy Heinsohn!  Person's NBA-average
    backpick surprised the back-pedaling Bird making it appear much worse
    than it actually was, especially once Larry went into the slo-mo flop
    forward onto his knees.  (Hint: most players really shoved in the back
    will have to break their fall with their hands, not their knees.)
    
    Dan

�    I've been out of this note for about 2 weeks.  I read this note's
�    title, and few of the recent replies. In my first reply I said I
�    assumed that this note was harping on Larry's performance in Game 5 -
    
    I suggest that you go back and read the earlier replies.  You'll find
    yourself very much mistaken.  I believe the note was written before
    game 5.  I know the note was written by a Celtics fan who wants Larry
    to retire before he tarnishes his image by playing too long.

   <<< Note 144.108 by VAXWRK::SCHNEIDER "Sununu escaped from Animal Farm" >>>
                        -< You're up against a realist >-
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa

I'm giving your name to the cleaning crew for when they get done with this 
office....Man the coke and cookies are everywhere....

JD, thsi note for the record started out with the noter who started it asking
Larry to retire this year and for go his 2 year extention. It also started 
right around the beginging of the series if I'm not mistaken and not after
game 5......

Larry's best game that I remember was a 36 point 21 rebound 5 assists
 dismantling of the Lakers way way way back when.....

mike 

               
    > You've been listening to too much Tommy Heinsohn!  Person's NBA-average
    > backpick surprised the back-pedaling Bird making it appear much worse
    > than it actually was, especially once Larry went into the slo-mo flop
    > forward onto his knees.
    
    First off, I hate Tommy Heinsohn's brand of "announcing", and have said
    so repeatedly in here.  Since many of the games are broadcast
    simultaneously, I watch TNT whenever possible to avoid the man.  Second
    of all, as I said, the play I saw had Bird running down the court on
    the break, not back-pedaling, when Person pushed him from behind and
    sent him sprawling, no intentional flop required.  Larry got to shoot
    two, but I was surprised that a technical wasn't also called.
    
    Was I hallugeonating or did someone else without a grudge against a
    once-great but still proud player see this play?  (Dan must have spent
    some quality time in the bathroom or something, as first he had no idea
    that Bird did some serious scoring inside driving to the hoop, and now
    this...)
    
    glenn
    

 Another point Glenn, is that it was a sunday national tv game no Tommy H.
 to be heard. You're correct. Dan's tuning up the keyboard just in case
 the Lakers advance to the finals against the Celtics....

 Dan, I think they call those Wet Dreams.....

 mike

    re .109, .110:
    
    The basenote was written on 2-MAY-1991.  Game 5 of the Celtics-Pacers
    series was Sunday May 5th. 
    
    
    py

    
    Listen, Dan, I guess I should apologize.  Turns out you really do know
    your Celtics hoops.  I mean, just look at this gem of a prognostication
    after Game 1:
    
    > Nope, the stinko blowout is still out there waiting to surface.  Last
    > night was the "No Real Point Guard, Slow Death game".  The stinko
    > blowout will probably come in game 3 in Auburn Hills...
    
    Right on the money!  Can you tell us what's on tap for tonight, 
    Danny son-of-Sheridan?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    re .99
    
    Nazz, would you please post Wilt's all time **head-to-head** playoff
    numbers against Russell ?
    
    Slasher is in the throes of his Russ-induced wet dream, so he hasn't
    noticed that those are Wilt's numbers for his whole career. I seem to
    remember Wilt scoring less as he became older, since he had better
    offensive options to go to... but I'm sure Don took that into account
    ...yeah suuurrrre ... HAHAHAHAHA ....

        <<< Note 144.106 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "Bruins Choke AGAIN!!!" >>>
                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      This from a guy who's favorite hockey team hasn't won anything in
    what? 50 years!!!
                                          Denny

    >the play I saw had Bird running down the court on
    
    Maybe it wasn't the same play, then, since I don't remember anything
    like your play occuring.  I do know that there was a play in the 3rd or
    4th quarter that Bird did draw a foul from Person on a clean back
    pick.
    
    >as first he had no idea
    >that Bird did some serious scoring inside driving to the hoop
    
    Gee, again this reference to serious scoring inside.  I've gotta
    question if you guys saw the whole game.  I think he took 19 shots in
    that game, and I'll bet that about 14 of them were pops from the
    outside.
    
    By the way, last night the Lagging Legend scored 13 points, 6 rebounds
    (maybe 1 in any kind of traffic) and 4 assists (one pretty bounce pass
    was notable) all squeezed into 44 minutes.  It's a good thing the
    officials were being kind and sent him to the free throw line 5 times
    or it would have been single figures.  Rodman gets all ball with no
    body contact whatsoever, and Larry ends up shooting a pair.  Life as we
    know it.
    
    Dan

    	Doc, you're reaching so far your shoulder is going to pop out
    of its socket.

    Slosher, is that the best you can do, after ducking the issue for how
    long now ?
    
    Sigh ....

    	Doc, Doc, Doc...  Everytime you've made a ridiculous statement
    in here I'm around to correct it.  What issue am I ducking?  Please
    enlighten me.  I can use another good long laugh...
    
    				/Don

    
    I think Doc should invoke some of that enlightened "if you don't have
    anything good to say...if you wouldn't say it face-to-face..."
    philosophy with respect to his shabby treatment of a tired, crippled 
    old man like Bird who's just trying to scrape together an honest 
    living.  Shame on you, Doc!
    
    glenn
    

    Sorry Doc - my reference material doesn't list any Wilt vs.
    Russell stats, except for the number of championships won.  ;-)
    
    NAZZ

�    every single cut he ever printed in here about Larry "gooney" Bird
�    would be uttered face-to-face, right Doc?  :-)

	More like face-to-kneecap Hawk.

    re .125
    
    And how would you Jihad members utter remarks to Laaarrwy ?
    
    face-to-buttocks (smooch smooch) ?
    
    HAHAHAHAHAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!

    re NAzz,
    
    I remember BAsketball Digest having an atricle about the statman in
    Philly who has stats for the number of lightbulbs used in the Spectrum
    :-), and he took the effort to complie all Wilt vs Russell stats in
    head to head comp. Supposedly it was something like 28 ppg, 28 rpg for
    Wilt and 15 ppg/23 rbg for Russell ...
    
    Doc

    Hey Brooks, if your memory is as good as Dan Sch. then its time to
    take a memory course....
    
    REK

    ...still ain't answered the question as to what "issue" I am ducking.

One of the guys I've met somewhere along the line here at DEC (probably
through a notes file) actually met Larry one night at banquet.  They
were in the bar afterwards, and he bought Larry a pitcher.  I guess they
talked together for quite a while afterwards.

THAT'S how you'd talk with Larry - down to earth, with a beer....

'Saw

    
> THAT'S how you'd talk with Larry - down to earth, with a beer....
    
    Just don't stick him with the tab-- or he might take a swing at you!
    
    glenn
    

Saw that guy was me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have pictures for doubters. I met
Larry at the Picidilly pub in westboro at a charity benefit for Jim Nance
after his heartache. Bobby Orr was the guy who put it together and also in
attendence that night was John Havlicek.. Bird spend about 20 minutes with me 
and my gang as we had the table with the most pitchers of beer on it. :^)

rather humble he scrugged off a reference I made to his 36 point 21 rebound
game against the Lakers as just another night's work...

 at one point he was talking to one of the girls in our group and noticing that
 his beer was just about empty I refill his glass to which he replied

 "You know what ole Larr likes..."

 mike  

Damn!

I was sitting here trying like hell to figure out what notes file I'd been
in.  I thought...Giants?....nah.

That was about four years ago you told that story...  I was impressed.

Say, with the luck I've been having, maybe one of the SPORTS noters is
the guy who told about meeting Kevin McHale in the paint store, and how
Kevin's arms were so long....


'Saw

    I met Kevin and Larry together once...at a Grateful Dead show in the
    Centrum.  They were on the left side of the stage, and I was in the
    front row sort of in front of them.  Apparently Kevin  has some sort of
    relationship with Mickey Hart, one of the Dead's drummers, who got him
    the passes, as Mickey was wearing a Celtics sweatshirt for the show.  I
    no longer hold that against him.
    
    I remember making some comment about being a Laker fan to them
    (couldn't help myself) and they declined to get me a beer from the keg
    just off stage.  What was really odd was since they were standing on
    stage, my eyes were about even with their shins.  That's when people
    look really tall!
    
    Dan                                                      

    Saw,
    
    I met Kevin McHale and his wife at Jamaica Pond - I was cutting through
    the pond finishing off a 16-miler, when I saw Kevin and his wife.  I
    said hi, and asked him if he was going to the Knicks (this is around
    the time the Knicks did an offer sheet to him, and the Celts made one
    for Marvin Webster and someone else...)  - he said nah - and asked if
    that made me happy - I said no, cuz I was a Knicks fan, so now I'd have
    to keep on 'disliking' him - he laughed and asked how far I had run. I
    told him and said I was crazy....
    
    I saw him a few times walking near the pond after that, but never
    stopped to talk to him.  I figured he must get stopped a dozen times
    each time he goes out for a walk.
    
    JD

>                           -< He's ugly up close... >-
    
    yeah kinda like Herman Munster without makeup ;-)
    
    I talked with Bird and McHale when they came to Phoenix one year.  Got
    both their autographs and Kevin gave his shoes to my boy (last game of
    the west coast swing).
    
    Mike

    We saw flashes of vintage Bird in the 4th quarter last night.

    Yeah, especially the trey he clanged with time running out.
    
    Mark.

    >We saw flashes of vintage Bird in the 4th quarter last night.
    
    Yes, the bricks reminded me the '85 and '87 finals.
    
    Dan

    > flashes of vintage Bird
    
    The thing that amazed me was that gawd-awful 3-pointer he put
    up with 16 seconds left and the C's down 2.  If you miss that shot
    and don't get the rebound the game is over, and that's not the
    kind of shot that enhances offensive rebounding.
    
    *Horrid* shot selection.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    A bad shot is a bad shot, even if it does go in.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Word all around beantown today is that Larry's back is
    doing very very well.  He's been doing his walks on the beach, playing
    tennis and doing good rehab stuff.
    
    Since he feels so good (relativley speaking (?)), word has it that he
    has favorably replied to the Olympic US basketball selection committee
    that he's interested in playing on the Olympic team.  I understand he
    hasn't officially said he will/wants to play but would "consider it"
    which is a long way from he's "won't" 6-9 months ago.
    
    Jihad members are saying that this is indicative of how good he's
    feeling and that the upcoming NBA season he'll be the "Larry of old".
    
    If he's picked for the team (No tryout's BTW, just a selection
    process), it looks like he'll join OOwing and Magic.
    
    comments ?
    
    Kev
    

       Parade in August!! Even Thompson could coach these guys!
                                        Denny

    I've got mixed feelings about letting professionals participate in the
    Olympics  Yeah I know times change, but the sentimentalist in me would
    still prefer to see the Olympics remain an amateur event.  
    
    At the very least, things should be consistent -- either all events
    should allow professionals to participate, or none.  The way things
    stand now, Isaiah Thomas could take part in the Olympics, but Frank
    Thomas can't...I'd prefer to see it one way or the other across the
    board.
    
    
    py 

    Paul,
    
    I agree with you 100% on the sentimentalist side since I've chosen
    my rose colored glasses which show the Olympics to really be an amateur
    event (although in reality.....).  Personally don't want the
    pro's there, especially in their chosen specialty.  I mean,
    IMO it's OK for Isaiah to compete in say, gymnastics or water polo
    but not BBall.
    
    Likewise, Mr. Ed (~/~) WOULD be eligible for the equestrian
    competitiion.
    
    Kev
    

    This is an old argument, for sure.
    
    But how can anyone be so naive to think that the Olympics are being
    played by amateurs? 
    
    In basketball, players who play in pro leagues in Yugoslavia, Italy,
    Brazil, etc compete. How could anyone say that the USSR, Czeck or
    Sweedish hockey teams are amateur? 
    
    Point is that our society makes a distinction between an athlete who
    competes in scholl or for fun and the athlete who competes for money.
    Europe and South America don't.
    
    So, should not the aim be to gather the globe's best athletes and let
    'em have at it? 
    
    However, on the other side of the fence, if this practice goes into
    effect, it will deprive us of the wonderful feeling of seeing a gang of
    college kids beat the USSR in hockey like in 1980.
    
    I am inclined to allow the athlete to decide whether he/she wishes to
    compete - not some committee.
    
    Rich

    
    Whatever the difference is, I know that as a naive kid I lived and
    breathed the Olympics when they came around every four years.  Right
    now, I have absolutely no interest in them.  They mean little more
    than something like the NBA All-Star Game to me.  When the time comes, 
    I'll probably be scanning the channels for a baseball game to get
    away from the hype...
    
    glenn
      

    You can trace some of the 'pros' in the Olympics to false patriotism in
    the good ol' USA.  Folks used to love having amateurs play - because we
    won every dang time.  Even in 72 when we lost to the Ruskies - we were
    gyped.  It was only when we started to lose internationally that the
    real cries were heard.
    
    I don't care one way or another.  I like the OLympics, but my two
    favorite sports are Track and Field and Swimming.  In both sports the
    folks make money - but not at the level of the Jordans, Birds, etc...
    
    And those sports have world championships that mean much more (or are
    at least equal to) the Olympic competitions.
    
    After seeing the fiasco of the Pan_am games (especially in the
    officiating in the T & F)  and the propoganda uses of 'victory over the
    Yanquis' by the Cubans, I say let the pros play. 
    
    
    Fair is fair.  So the US kicks butt in hoops and baseball.  We give
    other countries for their chance to have a  "Do you believe in
    Miracles" type memory.
    
    I mean, its got to be kind of hollow to beat the USA's 'best' in
    Olympic hoops, when you know that the real 'best' are playing in the
    NBA.
    
    JD

    If you want to follow a true amatuer sport, follow Rugby Union.

    
    I think the US has nothing to win by letting pros play.  If they do
    win, it'll be "so what?", if they lose whoever wins can then really
    beat thier chest.  I'd rather get excited by some college kids playing
    together and defeating the other guys' pro teams.

    Actually, I have no problem with the pros. When we play Yugoslavia or
    Italy or Brazil those countries put the best players from their nation
    on the floor. I see no reason why we don't.
    
    Rich
    

    Hey, has anyone tried reading the first few replies in this note
    without choking?
    
    
    Ha ha ha ha ha, Leave Now, Larry.  Right!   :*)
    
    Lee

    And He Still Has A Big Nose !!   ;^)
    
    Big GAme

    Skawk...  I bet you got a big Nose too...   ;^)
    
    Big Gamw

       Right Chap, great game yesterday. Portland shoulda won but free
    throw misses killed 'em!
       I hate to say something like this but Connor Bird Looks like he's
    gonna have his dad's looks instead of his mom's.
                                        Denny

    I loved it yesterday.  Especially after Scottie Pippen buried Bird in
    the media, saying he was washed up, and should retire (in so many
    words) after Bird's (and the Celts) destruction by the Bulls last week. 
    Yo Scottie, about the only thing you have on Bird is you are uglier and
    a better vertical leap.  Other than that, you can lick the dirt from
    the bottom of his sneakers.   Here's hoping that on 4/5/92 Mr. Bird
    shows Scottie something.
    
    JD

Yes, but will SI recall all the Larry Bird videos now ???

Bob Hunt

    Ha ha, JD, only your dislike of Scottie Pippen could entise you to
    write such great praise of Larry!  It would be the end of the world,
    total destruction, if Dock does likewise...  :-)
    
    Amazing how when Bird gets that shooting stroke, he makes it look so
    smooth and so easy.  It's been a good long time since I've seen that
    from him...
    
    Oh, and to remind you all (it's been a while):
    
    
    
    			Larry Bird is GOD!
    
    

    Hawkster -
    
    I've praised Sir Larry before.  Remember, I've never doubted or
    denigrated his hoop skills.  I've said if I had five guys to pick for a
    game to end all games, Mr. Bird would start at one forward position.
    
    Larry Bird is pure Wisconsin Cheddar, while that Pippen fellow is Kraft
    imitation.
    
    JD

    I know, JD.  But the note was great nonetheless...
    
    Hawk
    

    His foot was on the floor before he released that 3.
    
    Joe

    
 >>   I loved it yesterday.  Especially after Scottie Pippen buried Bird in
 >>   the media, saying he was washed up, and should retire (in so many
 >>   words) after Bird's (and the Celts) destruction by the Bulls last week. 
    
      Just what EXACTLY were those words ?

    Are there any doubts now why Portland is called a "stupid" team?  
    
    

    Tommy -
    
    I don't have the paper in front of me - it's in hte recycling center
    already.   Pippen did go on about it was painful to watch Bird, and
    that he should know when the time has come to hang em up, etc...
    
    I thought Bird was playing good hoops since he came back - and had a
    bad day agains the Jor..Bulls.  IMO, Pippen is vastly overrated.  He's
    good, but he's behind a few forwards on the NBA depth list...
    
    JD

    Larry is ...Larry is ..... Larry is ....
    
    
    
    UGLY !!!!!! AND THE CELTICS STILL 'TSIP' POND SCUM !!! THE JIHAD HAD
    BETTER  ENJOY THESE FLASHES OF REFLECTD GLORY WHILE THEY CAN, BECAUSE
    THEY STILL ARE GOING TO GO DOWN DOWN DOOOOOOWWN !!!! GAMES LIKE
    YESTERDAY ARE SPASMS - LIKE BREAKING WIND INTO THE COOL, CRISP,
    FRESH (CELTIC-LESS) ATMOSPHERE OF THE TRUE REALITY OF THE HIGHER NBA 
    CONSCIOCNESS (SP) !!!! SO THERE !
    HAHAHAHAAAAA !!!!!!
    
    And that is a fact.
    
    Love,
    
    I remain,
    Celtic-Basher-In-Chief, (tm)
    
    Dr Midnight
    
    p.s. I hear it was a hell of game. I only saw a small part of the 2nd
    OT - work prevented me from seeing much more ... :-(
    
    It seems like the 2 OT thriller will be a seasonal event at the Garden
    (lasted year, the Celtics and Bulls hooked up for a 2OT thriller, won
    by the Bulls) ...
    
    
    BTW, I don't seem to hear anybody bashing NBA basketball today ... :-)

       ...and let's not forget the TD pass to Rick Faux that Larry made
    from UNDER the backboard! Length a the court and sidearm!
                                       Denny

   
    Gee JD, saying it's painful to watch Bird and that Bird'll know when
    it's time to hang 'em up is a hell of alot different than calling the
    man "washed up" and saying that "he should retire". It isn't exactly
    what I'd call 'burying' Bird in the media either.
    
    

    Pippen couldn't carry Larry's jock, even if he's the best player in
    Chicago.

    Hey Tommy, so JD stretched it a bit.  Made for a great note anyway!
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    But Hawk, it's true !

    > But Hawk, it's true!
    
    Yeah, and so was Larry's sweet J yesterday!
    
    Hawk
    

    Actually, I didn't stretch it.  Pippen said everything in both my
    notes.  It was evident from his quotes that he considers Bird finished
    and probably not worthy to be on the same court as Scottie.  It was a
    fairly long Bird attach by Ben Vereen...
    
    JD

Well, despite his unbelievable performance yesterday, Bird still might retire this year.  
It's hard to believe that he can recover quickly from the pounding 54+ minutes will cause.   The
injuries just seem to keep coming back.  I think McHale is in a similar situation.

AND despite  OTHERS' wishes to the contrary, it's easy to see why Larry Legend is one of the best
NBA players of all time.... Almost like he pulled the Celtics out of their funk single handed.
(I guess Wilt did that all the time....)


Clyde Drexler is also pretty amazing too.  To his credit, he didn't pout about Bird's "controversial" 
three pointer...  

		Bob Cohen

Bird's foot MAY have been down yesterday, but by NBA standards, they also COULD
have called a foul on the play.

    Ya know how it is with 'Legends' - they never stand up to the harsh
    light of reality and truth ...

    Larry and the Legends dumped the Cavaliers last night.

    
    > Larry and the Legends dumped the Cavaliers last night.
    
    Come on Mac, a 2 point home victory against the Cavs with only 2 of 5
    starters playing and Mark Price shooting like Johnny Clang can hardly be
    considered a dumping.  Just be glad the Celts escaped with a W.  
                                            
    /Jeff

    FWIW,
    
    I've never considered the term 'dumped' as a synonym for 'blew away',
    'smoked', 'wiped out', 'dominated', etc....   I always thought it
    simply implied 'BEAT'!!!
    
    Some of you 'antis' out there seem a little too quick to jump on people
    who are making a non-confrontational statement...IMHO.
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

    How can you say such a thing?  (haha)
    

    
    Nelly, how can the statement be viewed as anything other than a 
    confrontational one.  The note had no substance, and if Mac didn't put 
    it in there to stir up the blood of the Cavs faithful, why is it 
    there.  
    
    I'm taking the heat at work today.. but for the life of me I don't
    understand why..  I thought the Cavs played a hell of a game
    considering the make-shift lineup they had out there.  
                                                            
    /Jeff

�    Nelly, how can the statement be viewed as anything other than a 
�    confrontational one.  The note had no substance, and if Mac didn't put 
�    it in there to stir up the blood of the Cavs faithful, why is it 
�    there.  
    
    Nelly had it 100% right, Jeff.  If the Celts had played another team
    last night and won I would have said the same thing.  The only way it
    could be construed as confrontational is if you're an oversensitive
    Caveliers' fan.
    
    As to why it was there, check out the reply before it.  The one that
    was quick to point out the Celts loss to Milwaukee on the road.  My
    comment could be taken as a compliment.  The Celts did manage to beat
    one of the top teams in the NBA recordwise.
    

    
    
    Larry's status is more than complete...  Yes, I suppose he can't win 
    EVERY game singlehanded anymore.  
    
    What does he have to do?  Collapse and die on the court???

    
    OK, Mac, I'll expect to see a note from you after every Celts game,
    then..  Win or Loose.   
    
    Nelly started the whole "confrontational" thing, not me...  you claimed 
    dumping, I rebuted it, plain and simple.. then Nelly jumped down my 
    throat as being over-reactive, Whatever.  
    
    /Jeff

    Monitoring a live tee vee broadcast:
    
    Larry has retired, effective today, due to injuries (back for those
    freshly out of a cave).
    
    His new job is "Special Assistant to Dave Gavitt".
    
    
    I remain,
    occasionally yer travelling reporter,
    Kev
    

       sheesh, first we have Midnight, Dinz, and Hawk leaving DEC, now
    THIS! What's next? KO leaving? A polish Pope?!!
                                  Denny
    

    This probably belongs in the ::Celtic_Lovefest note but I hate
    smoochie smoochie......;*)
    
    Wouldn't it be something now that Larry's ancient history AND the
    Celtics aren't really condendah's this year if Kevin AND Da Chief
    announced their retirement within the next(ed) week or so?
    
    The C's bite the bullet for the season anyway.  Why not make it a
    "rebuilding year"?
    
    I remain,
    tangentally yours,
    Kev
    

 BOSTON (UPI) -- In an emotional press conference held today near a park bench
 in Boston Commons, the ultra-reactionary organization known throughout the
 SPORTS world as the "Larry Bird Jihad" officially disbanded.   Citing the
 retirement of its jump-shooting hero, the Jihad tearfully acknowledged that
 it had no more reasons left to live.
 
 The Jihad organization, once one of the most vocal support groups, has been a
 feeble shell of its former self over the last several years as they have seen
 the slow sad decline of their hero's fortunes.   Jihad finances are said to
 be in such poor shape that the only parting gift they could afford for Bird's
 retirement was a free copy of a dictionary for use in his new career as a
 public speaker.
 
 Distraught ex-Jihad members were said to be contemplating a form of ritual
 suicide in order to ease their collective grief but instead decided to attend
 a nearby Red Sox baseball game where a spokesman said they would feel just as
 bad all the same.    
 
 Bob Hunt

    Willie Mays hung on too long and went out looking bad. Ditto Gil
    Hodges, Babe Ruth and, to a lesser extent, Hank Aaron.
    
    Sandy Koufax went out, perhaps a year or 2 early and our last
    impression of him was as a superb pitcher.
    
    Julius Erving, Mickey Mantle and Ted Williams went out gracefully as
    age slowed them somewhat but natural ability made their final
    appearance noteworthy.
    
    Jim Rice lost it. Larry WAS losing it, fast. I think we must not lose
    sight of the fact that, in his day, Larry was one of the top 3-5
    players in the NBA. He elctrified the home crowd and galvinized the
    city of Boston behind the Celtics. His Number "33"" adorns Celtics
    jerseys and caps not just in Boston, but across the country. 
    
    He was a white superstar in a sport dominated by black men. He was not
    the token white in a heavyweight championship bout. He earned his
    place at the top of the heap although he could neither run, jump or
    pass with the likes of Magic or Dr. J. 
    
    Unfortunately, he will also be at the center of discussions about the
    racism that exists in Boston and was correctly pointed to by Bill
    Russell as devastating to black athletes. And the question of whether
    Larry Bird would be the icon he is in Boston if he was not white will
    continue to be debated.
    
    But, when one removes one's self from the local chatterboxes of the
    Globe, Herald, WBZ, Clark Booth, etal, Larry Bird is recognized as one
    of the greats by national publications to inner city kids. His guts and
    devotion to hard work should serve as a model for aspiring players in
    any sport everywhere.
    
    The cynical view of Bird will pervade more in Boston than anywhere
    else. I find this ironic because it was on the boards of the venerabel
    Boston Garden that Larry Bird electrified sellout crowds with his
    diving, hustling and shooting. His desire to win, his intolerance of
    imperfection, his presence - will be missed by not just the Celtics and
    their fans, but by fans of the game around the world.
    
    One need only have witnessed Bird's reception in Barcelona by rivals
    and fans to get a feeling for the reverence he commands. He stands atop
    a pedestal together with Magic Johnson as the men who caused thousands
    to aspire to excel in basketball. 
    
    Here is a man who lacks charisma and who speaks what's on his mind. He
    cannot solve the crisis in Yugoslavia and he doesn't know much about
    the economy. But Larry knows basketball. He loves it. He breathes it.
    By example on the court, he demonstrates it. That's all he does...pur
    and simple.
    
    I don't consider myself a member of the mythical "Jihad". I consider
    myself quite lucky that I was able to see Bird perform in person 2
    times. I saw him play his 46 minutes, turn pink, run the other team in
    circles and win a couple games.
    
    He looked awkward. He didn't show the grace of an Oscar Robinson or the
    strength of an Elgin Baylor. He couldn't dunk with the pinache of
    Michael Jordan or pass with the flair of Magic Johnson. But, somehow,
    when the game was analyzed, Larry Bird was at the core of reasons why
    the Celtics won or lost. 
    
    I'll miss Larry Bird. Yet, I am glad to see him go out on the crest of
    an Olympic Gold medal and not laying prone on the sidelines of a
    basketball court in Salt Lake City wincing with pain. 
    
    Good Bye, larry - and thanks for the memories.
    
    Rich
    

    Denny,
    
    Ya asked what's next?????
    
    Well, I'll tell ya.  Although not cronologically accurate Wang
    Laboratories filed for protection under US Bankruptcy laws, Chapter
    11, this morning at 9:30 but since it wasn't posted here before Larry,
    I quess this is whot's next!
    
    hth,
    
    I remain,
    glad I don't have any of the $0.73 Wang stock!
    Kev
    

       I heard a bit on the news lasted night: "If you had $1 million worth
    of Wang stock in 1985, yesterday it was worth...
    $15,000!"
                                    Denny

    
    How can it get worse you say?  Wayne Newton's filed bankruptcy too!
    
    Tsk, tsk.....all my heroes.....
    
    Dickstah
    

I too have had the pleasure of seeing Larry Bird play, albeit not on 
the parquet floor of the Gahden.

Larry was a working man's type of basketball player.  Hard work, solid play,
no glitz, just quality production -- the kind of stuff America was built
on.

I'll never forget Larry's Converse Weapons commercial with Magic, nor
his line "You know what ol' Larry likes" to Mike Childs....


Thanks Larry for some of the most exciting sports memories of my life...


'Saw

 Not only did I have the pleasure of watching Larry, belong to Jihad etc, I
 did have the priviledge of meeting Larry in person at the Picadilly Pub in 
 Westboro at a benefit for Jim Nance. While Larry was talking to a few of the 
 other folks in my crowd I noticed his beer was a little bit light so I refilled
 it for him and that's where  Saw got the quote "you know what ole Larry likes"...

 He was fairly humble despite all the trash talk I hear he delievers. I told
 him that I though that his 1983 game against the Lakers in LA where he scored
 36 pulled down 21 rebounds and handed out 5 assists was one of the most 
 dominate one man performances I had ever witnessed and he blushed. Given that
 most of the folks there at the Pic that night were there to be seen (much like
 the garden crowd) I think Larry real enjoyed us party animals. He must have 
 spent 30 minutes with our crowd and downed 5 mugs in that time. Heck he 
 probably would have stayed with us all night if the bartender hadn't dragged
 him around the bar to pour a pitcher of beer.

 He will always be 1A to Russell 1 in my book.....

 mike

    
    	From where I sit, it appears that the NBA might be in a little 
    trouble.
    
    	First Magic, and now Larry.  The 'era' has officially ended and
    with it goes a lot of interest in the NBA IMO.
    
    	What made the 'era' special was the fact that both were considered
    the best at that time and both played the rival game to the hilt.  For
    the most part, much of the success in the NBA over the last 12 years
    is due to these two men.  Now without them, the rivalry dies, and so
    does interest.  Who is there to pick up the slack?  I don't see any
    big rivals left in the NBA.  Jordan is there but he needs a
    counterpart.
    
    	After the dreamy-team, I can't see how these guys could really play
    (hard) against each other.  From all reports, they all became such good
    friends that they will probably find it difficult to play hard against
    each other.
    
    	As for Larry, he gave me plenty to enjoy over the years.  I hope 
    he can cope away from the game which I feel Magic is having a difficult
    time doing.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

>    	After the dreamy-team, I can't see how these guys could really play
>    (hard) against each other.  From all reports, they all became such good
>    friends that they will probably find it difficult to play hard against
>    each other.
    
I heard that Larry and DrJ were fairly friendly, yet they had some 
very heated moments on the court.

Perhaps they got friendly later in J's career, I don't know...

'Saw    

    I don't think because guys are friendly off the court or have been
    teammates in another situation would prohibit anyone from playing hard
    against each other. Players get traded all the time and play against
    guys who were close friends as teammates. 
    
    I don't know if Barkley would make a good counterpart/rival for His
    Airness, but he's certainly the type of high-profile player that could
    pull it off. Problem is they would only play twice a year with Charles
    in Phoenix now. Who else might be able to do this? Isaiah's act is
    getting old, and the bad boy Pistons seem on the downside....
    
    Tom                                    

 �   I don't know if Barkley would make a good counterpart/rival for His
 �   Airness, but he's certainly the type of high-profile player that could
 �   pull it off. Problem is they would only play twice a year with Charles
 �   in Phoenix now. 
 
 The East-West split didn't stop Bird and Magic.  Barkley and Jordan could
 indeed square off in a battle of superstars.   A couple of Chicago-Phoenix
 matchups in the NBA Finals and it would be so.
 
 � Who else might be able to do this? 
 
 Three possible candidates ... Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, and Larry
 Johnson.   They all have marquee value and have the potential to raise
 their teams to better levels.   But it won't come without effort.  There
 is no automatic passing of the star torch in the NBA.
 
 Bob Hunt

 BOSTON (UPI) -- In a stunning turnaround, the former members of the now
 disbanded organization known as the Larry Bird Jihad announced today that
 they have formed two new fan support groups each dedicated to the worship
 of individual Celtic basketball players.
 
 The two new groups will be known as the Fox Brickade and HezBarry.  The
 first group, composed mostly of masons and throat surgeons, proclaimed its
 new allegiance to Rick Fox, the Celtics' 2nd-year forward with a severe
 propensity for errant shotmaking.   A spokesman would neither confirm nor
 deny the rumor that the organization's first meeting ended in a near-riot
 when dissident members started a "Kansas, Kansas" chant referring to Fox's
 abysmal performance in the 1991 NCAA Final Four.
 
 HezBarry is dedicated to the exploits of the Celtics' 1992 first round
 draft pick, Jon Barry.   Barry, son of NBA great Rick Barry, was a
 surprise choice for the Celtics and is still not signed to a contract.  A
 spokesman for the new group expressed optimism that he would soon sign a
 lucrative deal with the Beantown team although he also admitted that the
 group has no idea what value Barry brings to the team aside from his
 bloodlines.
 
 Both groups were said to be considering fund-raising events.  A Fox
 Brickade spokesman said they might hold a three-point shooting contest
 with a curious twist ... low score winning ... meanwhile HezBarry was said
 to be planning an underhanded foul-shooting event.
 
 Bob Hunt

    While I've never seen Larry up close and personal, never mind meet
    him, I was fortunate enough to witness several games in the Garden
    especially in the early 80's when I had connections to ah, pad the
    attendance figures. Two games I will always remember and I'll start
    with my second favorite:
    
    1. Spring, 1984, Celts and Knicks at the Garden in the 7th and deciding
    game of their semifinal series. Both teams winning at home and the
    opposite superstars, Bird and Bernard King, excelling in his team's
    wins. In this game 7, Bird came out like a house-a-fire, knocking
    the Knicks into oblivion by the first half. He was dominant in all
    phases; rebounding, passing and scoring. He was possessed!
    Me and my buds had standing room "positions", perfectly sangwiched
    between the beer stand and the men's room. Heaven! Twas a dude
    sitting a coupla rows in front of us with a shirt that read, " Hubie
    Sit Down!". Every time Brown got up to complain, this guy would
    stand up and shout, "Hubie Sit Down!" Musta been inspired by the
    brews as well as Larry's play.
    
    2. My all-time favorite. Warm spring Sunday afternoon at the Garden,
    Game 7 of the 1981 Eastern Conference finals between the Sixers and
    the Celtics. The Celts had just wrested games 5 and 6 from the 
    dreaded Philthy's to climb back from a 3-1 deficit to a 3-3 tie.
    Would this be a repeat of 1968? The place was abuzz with nervous
    anticipation before the game and the roar that greeted the Celts
    when they came on the court was deafening and gave ya goosebumps.
    I was lucky enougfh to have seats right next to the Celtic bench.
    Man was everyone hopping! And the game was as great as its billing.
    The ebb and flow of the game was momentous. Everyone was on edge.
    And I'll forever remember this moment as to this day I can replay
    it in slow-motion; twenty seconds or so left, the Celts rebound
    a missed Sixer shot with the score tied 89 all. The Celts bring
    the ball downcourt away from our end of the building. Everyone is
    on his feet. Larry dribbles down the left sideline and slows
    down to ready his shot. At that moment all you could hear was the
    collective 15,000 intake of breath as he went up for the shot.
    Man when that ball banked off the backboard and through the net,
    there was pandemonium in the fablec old wreck. I'll tell ya,
    the earth was shakin' my mind was quakin'. And when the final
    buzzer sounded, that place rocked even more. And outside the
    Garden and subsequentially Faneuil Hall was even more crazy!
    
    Thanks, Larry.
    
     
    

       I was at that 7th 6ers game too Mike. Also, the final regular season
    game that same spring. It was for the division title and home court vs
    the 6ers. Just as exciting!
        We used to buy obstructed view and stand in the 2nd
    balcony. I was also at the 5th ("See you Sunday"!) game that series.
    By far the best and most exciting spring in years.
                                    Denny

    Draw your own inferences from this, but it sure seems consistent,
    
    Wade Boggs on Larry Bird, " He overcame a lot of obstacles. People
    said he couldn't jump, couldn't shoot. From the stuff I read and
    heard, he was never supposed to play a day in the NBA. They said a
    lot of that stuff about me- I'd never play a day in the big leagues."
    
    Well this "people" says you could have omitted the last sentence,
    chicken-breath.
    
    MikeL
    

     I'm just glad that I was around during what will surely be looked
    upon as the Golden Age Of Basketball. For Celtics fans (and yes, 
    Laker fans too) the '80's had more chills and thrills than a one
    night stand with Tina Turner and Larry was a BIG part of the reason
    why. I've read in here more than once that sports is a microcosm or
    a mirror of life and I never agreed with that sentiment. The roller
    coaster without brakes excitement of key games, the highs and lows 
    of big wins and big losses are things most of us will never experience
    in our all too mundane lives. So, we live vicariously through athletes
    and that's why we held Larry so dear. Most uf us will never have a 96"
    vertical leap or be able to outrun a two legged dog but we can appr-
    eciate that it takes hard work and discipline to achieve a desired goal 
    and that's what Larry was all about. Thanks for the mammaries.
    

Wade Boggs couldn't carry Larry Bird's jock.


The thing I liked about Larry was his workmanship.  He worked hard at
what he did, shooting, shooting, shooting.  Like any other guy, he'd
take two weeks off, and off-season or not, he'd be shooting hoops....


'Saw

    
    	I think you guys missed my point a little about rivals.  What we
    saw between Bird and Magic is one of all-time proportions.
    
    	Think about it.  Wilt-Russell, McEnroe-Borg, etc.  As some papers
    have said, there are pleny of great players, but few if any great
    rivalries.  Boston/LA was unique simply becaue of Bird/Magic and that's
    why a lot of 'casual' NBA fans will turn off the tube when faced with
    Chicago/Portland.
    
    	The same can be said for teams.  I'm not a hockey expert, but
    has the Boston/Montreal rivalry been the same since Orr left?  I
    can only relate to the last 20 years, but in football,
    Pittsburgh/Oakland was a great one along with Pittsburgh/Dallas among
    a bunch of others.  But the key in all these were the rivalries between
    the stars.  Bradshaw/Stabler, Bradshaw/Staubach, Namath/Lamonica and
    on and on.
    
    	What Bird and Magic had was special and something that doesn't 
    come around that often.  They were able to elevate their games when
    playing against each other and yet keep it from getting personal.  Pure
    competition and that is something I will miss.  And I don't see
    anything in the near future in the NBA that would lead me to believe
    that another rivalry equal in magnitude to Bird/Magic is near.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    
    

    
    re .1788
    
     You could ask Wade about the situation is Republican Convention and
    somehow he'd manage to work what a great guy he is into the convers-
    ation.

    
    re: Bird
    
    	The absolute best story about Bird's work ethic to me is the one
    involving Mike O'korn who played for the Nets.
    
    	Anyone remember that on one visit to the Garden, O'korn decided
    to get to the 'gym' before Larry and shoot around seeing that Larry
    had already established a legend about him arriving before anyone else
    and shooting around for an hour or two.
    
    	True to form, O'korn shows up a couple of hours before tip-off and
    walks into an empty Garden except for one guy sweeping the floor. 
    O'Korn walks up to the guy and says something to the effect.."How do
    you like that, I made it to the gym before Bird."  The sweeper turned
    and said, "what do ya mean?  Bird's already been here and finished
    his warmup."  O'Korn was said to just turn and shake his head in 
    unbelief.
    
    	I love that story..
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Boston - Montreal rivalry has been every bit as intense as it was since
    Orr has been gone.  Perhaps it's even more intense since the Bruins
    have beaten the Habs 3 or 4 of the last 5 playoff series they've had.
    
    John

    Bill G hit the nail on the head concerning the impact of the Bird/Magic
    rivalry nearly transcending the game itself. TV tried to do the same
    this year by focusing on Clyde and Michael. It was a failure. They have
    tried to do it with Thomas and Dumars - no dice. 
    
    The fact that Magic and Bird came into the league together and had such
    an awesome impact - immediately, has not been matched by any pair of
    players since. Remember Magic playing center in the finals against the
    Sixers? Remember how Bird redefined the role of the forward position
    (Gee, a tall guy that can dribble and pass - what a novelty!).
    
    When Bird did something, it was compared to Magic. When Magic did
    something, it was compared to Bird. They made the triple double a
    household word to NBA fans.
    
    Finally, one cannot forget the fact that these two guys faced off
    against each other in the NCAA finals. They lived up to the hype. They
    were projected as college superstars and they came through.
    
    Yet, Bird and Indiana State must be examined closer. The Sycamores are
    by no means a basketball powerhouse. If you could imagine Reggie Lewis
    taking his Northeastern team to the NCAA finals - that might help you
    understand the enormity of what Bird did. ISU had Bird and that
    was it! 
    
    The media will try to create another rivalry. As will the NBA. But
    Stern knows that the NBA is in trouble now. The Dream Team helped it's
    image a bit but one player (Jordan) can't pull the entire load. 
    
    Robinson is a nice guy. So is Malone. League savers? NOT.
    
    Barkley is a heck of a player. I'll take him on my team. Yet he lacks
    the charisma of a Johnson or the small town image of a Bird. Kids wanna
    be like Magic and they wanna be like Bird. Can't say I sense the same
    ardor about Barkley, Mullin or Pippen.
    
    Rich
    

 Rich, I think alot of kids are going to want to growup to me like Grandmama
 Johnson.....

 Haven't forgotten you Bob, one of these days I'll get it to you....

 The next great rivalry could be Jordan/Ewing. Both dominate their teams
 and opponents and have already squared up against one another. Long range
 and potential to be a great one is Shaq/Alonzo. Of course Shaq will have to
 work hard to improve his foul shooting plus find a jumpshot....

 mike

I read an article one time in SPORT magazine that delved into just how
much Magic/Larry "made" the NBA into what it is.

Their rivalry from college, and into the pros is unparalleled in other sports.

Personally, I don't think a rivalry like that is going to emerge for a
long time.  It pulled the NBA out of a slump, and that in itself makes it
special.

Plus, Larry and Magic were solid players, but not fancy players like
Jordan.  Nowadays, the fancy players seem like individual stars with
their slam dunks and stuff like that.  

Magic, to me, seemed to be the assist king, always setting up the others,
and while Larry was always the clutch guy (I mean, honestly, name one
player other than Larry who you'd want to have the final shot), he was
by nature not a fancy guy.


No, I think you'll see the team rivalries continue, but like the great
Air Aces of WWI, with their mutual respect in battle, an era has passed.....


JMHO,
'Saw

       I remember somebody saying back in the early '80s that if Indiana
    State didn't have Larry they never would have been able to get past a
    team as powerful as even a Merrimack College!
                                   Denny

    A comment heard on the radio this AM:
    
    "Local therapists and counselors have reported a marked increase in
    people requesting their services.
    
    They blame this increase on the local economy, the present high level
    of unemployment, the wet and damp weather, the playing of the Red Sox
    and the retirement of Larry."  :*)
    
    
    lEe
    

    The locals point to the Celtic's visit in 1983 as one of Bird's most
    memorable moments.  My wife and I were at that game and managed to get
    the Legend's autograph afterwards.
    
    Boston was at the end of their west coast swing when they came into
    town.  A pumped Suns team ran out to a 20 point lead by halftime.  In
    the second half, the Celts whittled away at the lead led by Bird and
    Tiny.  By the time the 4:00 mark of the 4th came around, the score was
    tied.  The teams fought back and forth until the closing seconds.  
    Larry Nance tipped in a shot with 1 second on the clock to give Phoenix a
    102-100 lead.  Boston called a timeout and the crowd was going wild. 
    The Gorilla was dancin in the aisles.  The locals thought they had
    slayed the mighty Goliath.  
    
    Celts came out with Cornbread inbounding the ball.  Bird looked to the
    Phoenix bench and mouthed the words "It's over."  Alvin Scott took
    Larry's fake, Cornbread got him the ball, and Bird launched a
    3-pointer, never stopping to watch the ball.  He immediately started
    walking to the locker room.  As the ball swished through, you could
    almost hear a pin drop, except for the few jubilant Boston faithful.
    
    Bird seemed to hit at least 40 everytime he came into town.  Thanks to
    Nazz, I had the honor of seeing Bird in the Celtic's home shrine where
    he drilled Seattle for 40 points.
    
    Mike

    To be perfectly honest I won't shed any tears about Bird retiring. Even
    the last few years when he was in a game he could somehow find a way to
    beat you. So as a Knicks fan I don't mourn his leaving.
    
    On the other hand as a basketball fan it won't be quite the same when
    the clock is down 1 tick, the Celtics are down by 2, and the ball gets
    inbound to Bird ... Truly one of the greatest to ever play the game in
    every sense of the word. Could score 40 when needed, make the passes, or
    get the rebounds. But more importantly raise the level of those he
    played with. 
    
    I asked Saw to post a request for Wednesday's Globe (got a copy)
    because whatever the articles said Bird deserved it; this is unusual
    for the Boston media and it was a chance to see biased reporting that
    was actually deserved. Nice job by the Glob.e
    
    The Crazy Met
    

L is for Legend.  You certainly were.
A is for arrogance,  your fans had it.
R is for rebounding, a workingman's feat
R is for retiring, you are doing it with grace
Y is for yokels - the garden was full of em

B is for beautiful, your game was that
I is for I, a word you didn't know
R is for retching, your fans made me do that
D is for desire, you were chock full of it.

Larry, its too bad that many of your fans saw the need to put you on a 
pedestal that you didn't want, and didn't feel comfortable on.   Its too
bad they just couldn't appreciate you as a great ballplayer and a regular guy.
Thanks for never accepting the God title, too bad that dude in Chicago 
doesn't have an ounce of what you have.

Larry, thanks for some fantastic hoops.   You'd make the all-JD team every
year.   After early bumblings, you turned into a real professional, and left
the whiners and wanna-bes to do the stupid things.   YOu didn't get caught 
up in the star thing - and that's what really made you great.

I'll tip a brew to ya.  You and Magic made the NBA rekindle its appeal.  I'm
glad you are getting out now.  You never were Madison avenue. Thanks for that.

Ta-ta Larry.

JD

     A New Yorker calling Boston fans "arrogant" ? What's next Dan Quayle 
    calling Marilyn Vos Savant a bimbo ? Don King calling the Rev Billy 
    Graham a crook ? If there was a tv show "America's Most Arrogant", New
    Yorkers would occupy nine of the top ten slots. Donald Trump, Leona 
    Helmsley, Ed Koch, George Steinbrenner... when it comes to arrogance New 
    York is the standard by which the rest of the planet is measured. 

    This is the Larry Bird Note. You want to take swipes at Bostonians and
   Michael Jordan please do it elsewhere.
    

Tommy -

I praised Larry Bird.  That's what this note is all about, right?

And in all my travels, I've never met more arrogant fans than Celtics fans.
Never.  Ever.  

But why sully up Larry's note.  He was great.  I'll miss him.  But I won't miss
his fans' gushing over him.

JD

    JD,
    
    Nice tribute.  You been hanging around the Chainsaw for inspiration
    alot or did somebody invade your account?
    
    Sheesh!  Just when I was beginning to think you and MAC were one and
    the same.......
    
    ;^)
    
    
    Kev
    

    
    Awright, awright, I guess I'll just have to admit it.  I thought it
    wasn't me, but I guess I'm just like the rest of 'em.  I'm a Celtics
    fan and a Red Sox fan.  I'm arrogant.  I'm a yokel.  I think I know it
    all.  I just sip.  Thanks for helping me face the reality so maybe I
    can seek help and change my ways.
    
    Dickstah
    

 The best tribute I can make to Larry Bird is to just say "Thank you!".  
 Without Bird and Magic lifting the NBA to undreamed of heights, the
 Charlotte Hornets do not even exist.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    Oh, I forgot to include that I'm a mindless sheep.  I need help in that
    department, too.
    

 Bob, you should also thank Larry for the mass of material he provided for
 your book "The Celtician Verses"....

 ;^)

 Larry Bird was *NOT* the inspiration for "The Celtanic Verses".   The
 Jihad was.
 
 Bob Hunt

but there's be no Jihad without him.....

    AWRRIGHT!!!!
    
    Finally we've elevated ::Sports to that good ol' timeless discussion
    of the Chicken and Eggs - Who came first!!!!!
    
    I remain,
    getting hungry now!
    Kev
    

    
    Waitaminute.  All of a sudden the perpetrators of the anti-Jihad
    intifadah are engaging in the same activity that they condemned Jihad
    members for, namely, praising Larry Bird to the extreme (can you
    imagine the outrage if a *Celtics* fan had made such a brash statement
    as "no Bird, no Charlotte Hornets"?).  I think the intifadah needs to 
    get a real hard-liner like DrM back in here, and quick...
    
    glenn
    

 
      Well JD, it's a free country and you can say whatever you 
     want [no shit] but in that note where you "praised" Larry 
     I counted no less than five swipes at Bostonians. Why ? You
     may personally feel that Boston fans are the most arrogant
     fans going but maybe that's expected of a New Yorker because
     Bostonians feel that way about New York fans. If there were ever
     any fans in all of sportsdom who were more arrogant than Yankees 
     fans when they were on top (way back when) or Giants fans after
     they had won just one Super Bowl, I haven't seen 'em. I guess it's
     all in the eye of the beholder.
    

    Dickstah, that is a very good step. Remember that the toughest step
    towards recovery is admitting the problem.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
    

    	Don't worry fellas.  JD's driving to the Swamplands with me
    this weekend.  By next Monday he'll be apologizing all over the
    place.  8^)
    
    				/Don			

�    Sheesh!  Just when I was beginning to think you and MAC were one and
�    the same.......
    
    Huh?

    
    ~/~
    

Tommy -

I'll agree with ya on one thing.  Yankee fans are extremely arrogant.  In fact,
it is to Yankee fans that I mostly compare Celtics fans with.

JD

    Doc sez Bird couldn't carry Julius' jock...
    

 � All of a sudden the perpetrators of the anti-Jihad intifadah are
 � engaging in the same activity that they condemned Jihad members for,
 � namely, praising Larry Bird to the extreme (can you imagine the outrage if
 � a *Celtics* fan had made such a brash statement as "no Bird, no Charlotte
 � Hornets"?).  
 
 Not.  C'mon, Glenn, get wif da program.  I was the founding father of the
 pre-Doc anti-Celtic movement in this forum way back in 1986 when Larry
 Bird could do absolutely no wrong.   The stated goal then and now was
 never to bash Bird himself but instead to bash his blinded flock of
 faithful terror-sheep.   Hence, the name Larry Bird Jihad.
 
 Bird, together with Magic Johnson, were responsible for the explosive
 growth the NBA enjoyed in the Eighties and they, in turn, provided the
 momentum for the birth of four new expansion teams.   That much is
 indisputable fact.
 
 What the Jihad members passed off as fact was mostly air.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
     Sorry, I don't see the difference. Folks are bashing Celtics/Larry
    fans for putting him on a pedestal and yet those same folks admit he
    was one of the all-time greats and along with Magic helped save the
    league. If Larry and the 'Tics played for anyone of those folks home
    teams they wouldn't have behaved any differently than Bostonians did.
    

    > Sorry, I don't see the difference. Folks are bashing Celtics/Larry
    > fans for putting him on a pedestal and yet those same folks admit he
    > was one of the all-time greats and along with Magic helped save the
    > league. If Larry and the 'Tics played for anyone of those folks home
    > teams they wouldn't have behaved any differently than Bostonians did.
    
    Sorry buddy, but Bird was deified in Boston in a way that no sports
    figure I can think of was in their home town. Great player,
    unquestionably; Boston fans gave new definition to hero worship and
    deification, you betcha.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    This day and age with players movig around the way they do, its very
    rare to see a player who had as much impact on the GAME as Bird, who
    played his entire career with one team. Also the countless times Bird
    won games inthe last seconds is legendary. It's one thing to talk
    trash, but to be able to back it up the way Bird did is quite another. 
    Bird was unique in this respect.
    
    One of my favorite Bird stories was from a mid-80s playoff series in
    Detroit (when the Pistons were a year or 2 away) or Cleveland, and the
    Celtics just lost the 4th game, but now had a 3-1 lead. Game 5 was in
    Boston and the 6th game was to be played that Sunday. Some guy yelled
    "Hey Larry, we'll see you Sunday!" Bird replied, "You got a better
    chance of seeing God!"  
    
    When Dr. J retired, fans made such a big deal in every city. Certainly
    he deserved to be recognized as the great player he was, but it got a 
    little out of hand at times. The Hawks, of all teams, retired the uglee 
    lime-green jersey that Erving wore in training camp for the Hawks before 
    they shrewdly traded him to the ABA NY Nets for a minor league hockey 
    player. Can you seriously BLAM ! Celtics fans for wanting to acknowledge 
    one of the greatest players ever at his retirement?  
    
    Bird will fit in nicely in Celtics lore with his 33 up on the rafters
    with all the others. He will also be a 1st ballot HoFer. Give credit
    where it's due.
    
    Tom

    Thanks to whomever sent the section from Wednesday's Globe on Bird's
    retirement.
    
    re:.248
    
    Credit is being given where it is due - to Bird.
    
    Disagreement os over the Boston fans - nothing new there.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

�    This day and age with players movig around the way they do, 
    
    With the salary cap restrictions and very limited free agency, it is
    rare for a basketball superstar to change teams.

    
  >>  Sorry buddy, but Bird was deified in Boston in a way that no sports
  >>  figure I can think of was in their home town. Great player,
  >>  unquestionably; Boston fans gave new definition to hero worship and
  >>  deification, you betcha.
    
       Namath didn't own New York when he played there ? Michael Jordan 
      isn't 'deified' in Chicago ? Elway bends over for the soap every 
      time he gets to the Super Bowl yet until recently he was Denver's 
      favorite son may still be for all I know. I think the real problem 
      here is that  we all work for a company based in the Boston area and 
      the preponderance of 'Tics fans in here just grates on some folks. I 
      don't deify any athlete but I will acknowledge that Larry was a great 
      one and he brought excitement back to the Garden just as Michael is 
      doing in Chicago and Montana did in San Fran.

      BTW - the name is Tommy not "buddy".
         
    

    Yo Craze,
    That was a beaut!  Dontchya remember you NooYawkas fawnin' all
    over the so-called Knick dynasty fellas? Swoonin' all over Willis
    and Clyde. 
    
    To quote Dapper, " It's enough to make ya sick!"
    
    MikeL
    

    Maybe Elway in Denver, the others you mention? nope not the way Bird was
    treated in Boston.
    
    You do have a point about the preponderance of Boston fans does grate
    on the nerves, that does not mean that the observations people make on
    the lunacy of some of the things that go on in the Boston sports -
    (that include teams, media, fans) world is incorrect.
    
    re: name thing
    
    Geez and I though SPORTS was all about camraderie :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Well, I am going to miss seeing Bird out on the parquet.  While his
    performance in the past few years wasn't what he wanted, I think most
    Celtic fans were hoping that somehow his ailments would deminish to
    where he could at least reach his "normal" level of effort.  That's
    what I always enjoyed, his effort.
    
    To see a player of his stature diving for loose balls, sliding into
    chairs, flying over tables, is something that one usually sees from a
    rookie who is trying desperately to impress the coaching staff.  Rarely
    will a player of his ability take the chance of receiving an injury for
    just a loose ball.
    
    This is the type of basketball that I witnessed while watching Kerrie's
    playing years at Haverhill High.  It's the type that was taught by
    Kevin Woefel, and it was also the type that many of the kids wanted to
    play.  Why?  Because they say Larry do it.  If he wasn't afraid to
    dive, they why should I be?  
    
    I'm thankful that I got to see Larry Bird, Bobby Orr, Ted Williams, Yaz
    and John Hannah play. There'll be more great players, but they will
    have to be of their own style, 'cause none of these guys can be cloned.
    
    Lee

    re: .252
    
    From what I recall the Willis and Clyde thing never approached the Bird
    craze in Boston. In all fairness though I did follow the Knicks in the
    early 1970's I was a bit on the young side so any Willis and Clyde
    craziness - whatever it was - would have been a bit before my time.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    The question remains that even if Bird was "worshipped" (in the sports
    context) for the qualities that even non-Celtics fans are now so 
    willing to extol, what is wrong with that?  What is the harm in even
    going so far as to believe, as a devoted fan of Bird (which I 
    personally am not), that he was the greatest basketball player of all 
    time, if even detached and more objective observers can't completely 
    discount that possibility? 
    
    Frankly, I think this kind of respect for greatness in an athletic 
    figure is a whole lot more proper and commendable than the much more
    fashionable cynicism that is directed at great contemporary athletes 
    like Michael Jordan, or Roger Clemens, or any number of others.  Given
    the choice between the slightly overexuberant appreciation of a great
    athlete, and the even *more* emotional and subjective put-downs that 
    are prevalent amongst today's sports fans, I'll gladly take the hero 
    worship.  It's more appropriate and a lot closer to reality than the
    knee-jerk slurs and detractions.
     
    In any case, is Bird unique as the most worshipped American athlete 
    amongst his fans and in his town?  I don't think so.  I'd make a case
    for Mickey Mantle as the indisputable #1...
    
    glenn
    

    
    How could you forget about Babe Ruth, lEe?  Tell us about when you saw
    The Babe play for the Sox.
    
    Dickstah
    

    re. .256
    TCM,
    
    Maybe the Clyde and Willis craziness never approached the Bird
    craziness because Willis and Clyde never approached Bird.
    
    HTH,
    MikeL
    
    

    "I don't know how many great games Larry had at the Coliseum, but it
    was too many.  Every time he was here, it seemed like he had a great
    game.  It seemed like he beat us every time with the final shot."...
    I had the great privilege of watching the Dream Team play its last
    couple games in the Olympics.  I was at some of the informal functions
    that were going on, and there were conversations and speculation he may
    not be coming back (this season).  So, in watching him play those last
    few games, especially the last game, when he went in for the last time
    in the second half (against Croatia in the gold-medal game), I
    instinctively felt this is the last time I'm going to see Larry Bird
    play.  I was a little emotional at the time.  I'll cherish the thought
    that I happened to be there." - Jerry Colangelo, Suns President

    "I'll never forget the shot.  Coach MacLeod told me in the huddle to
    make the inbound pass go to the middle of the court and away from Larry
    Bird.  But I went for the fake and Larry go the ball.  Not only did my
    heart sink, I felt like I let everybody down." - Alvin Scott on Larry's
    3-point winner here in 1983.

    "Larry has been my idol since I can remember watching basketball games. 
    I've always looked up to him.  I'm glad that I had a chance to compete
    against him and always felt that we had a good match-up.  I wish him
    all the best." - Dan Majerle, Suns Forward and NBA's best 6th man

    "When I was with the Knicks last year, I remember a game when he didn't
    do very much in the first half, then came out and lit it up in the
    second half.  I remember thinking, 'Oh man, this guy hasn't lost
    anything'...  And how can a guy who's not supposed to jump very high do
    all that rebounding and scoring inside like he did?  He was amazing." -
    Jerrod Mustaf, Suns Forward

    "He had a long career that really is almost unmatched by anybody in the
    league.  Sooner or later, it always comes to an end at some point or
    another.  But this is a changing of an era.  I have an enduring picture
    of him as the guy that wasn't afraid to take the last shot when the
    stakes were the highest.  Not only wasn't he afraid, he hungered for
    it." - Paul Westphal, Suns Head Coach and a decent scoring machine in
    his day

    
    Yabbut (a phrase in vogue) I gotta comment about (imo) dweebs
    
    Stopped in a stationary store on my way home tonight and mohzied over
    to the magazine rack hoping to find somethang on college Basketball. 
    Nuttin there but there was a few rags.
    
    Peterson's mag had 2 versions on the rack, one yellow and one orage,
    each color had a different "hologram" of Mike Jordan glued on but the
    thing that got me was Larry on each cover!!!! Title cover had  title
    banner something like "Ageing Celtics last title chance?" or something
    like that.
    
    'scuse me but don't those jerks know about a few recent trades and the 
    retirement of a certain B-Ball player in a green uniform?????
    
    Talk about "timely journalism"....!
    
    Sheesh!
    
    I remain, 
    relatively current on current events.
    Kev
    

       Hey Kev, they usually keep 'Hustler' behind the counter, not on the
    rack!
                                  Denny

    Those magazines have such a long lead time for production it's not
    really timely information.  For example, Bob Ryan once remarked he was
    asked to do the NBA preview for Sport Magazine in June.
    
    This is what gave rise to the SI jinx, by the way.  They used to have
    the same production problems as the monthlies and annuals, so they'd
    very often write the bulk of an article (for example, a team profile)
    way before the issue was to appear.  Things would change between the
    writing of the article and the appearance of the article.
    
    If you look at the early years of SI, they featured lots of covers of
    champion dogs, marching bands and so forth - not the breaking news we
    are used to today.
    
    John

    Yabbut, magazine production has improved a LOT with each new wave of
    technology. Sure, in the early days of SI, it took them 2 weeks to
    produce the cover, so it often was a guessing game. 
    
    From having been a managing editor at a magazine, depending on your
    staff and budget, it can take only a month or so (maybe less) to produce 
    and print a full color 64-page issue. If a BB magazine was new on the 
    shelf today, certainly the Bird story should have made the deadline, but 
    I dunno about later moves such as X-man, Pooh Richardson, Chuck Person, 
    etc. 
    
    As for the story "Aging Celts Last Shot at Title?", that story
    could have been written even 2 years ago. Does anyone (other than the
    greenest of all Jihad members) really think the Celtics have a legit
    shot at winning it? Sure, they could win the Atlantic, but any more
    than 2 playoff series wins would be an unexpected surprise.  
    
    Tom

    
    > This is what gave rise to the SI jinx, by the way.  They used to have
    > the same production problems as the monthlies and annuals, so they'd
    > very often write the bulk of an article (for example, a team profile)
    > way before the issue was to appear.  Things would change between the
    > writing of the article and the appearance of the article.
    
    That still didn't explain all those people dying within the year,
    though.  *That* was the real birth of the SI jinx, and it's moved on to
    less serious downfalls since... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    Yabbut if SI has the technology to report Sunday footaball results in
    the issue I get on Thursday in my mailbox, as well as other "timely"
    events, howcum the generic rags cain't?
    
    Week-in, week-out, SI (as a prime example) probably prints several
    hundred thousand copies.  I agree that a certain percentage of the
    articles, like the up close and personal's, are probably written
    weeks/months in advance but many pages are written only a few days
    before they go to press.
    
    If I was a managing editor of Peterson's (no small publisher btw) I
    never would allow an issue to go to press if it had as many
    inaccuracies as I perceive these to be.  The major trades have
    significantly effected the balance of the league and these issues
    should reflect those changes!  I mean, did they have a deadline to
    meet?  Nope.  So why (here comes the stupid question) did the
    journalists sacrifice accuracy?
    
    BTW, although only the covers are different (orange and ???), the
    holigraphic rendition of His Airness is also different.  I guess they
    want folks to pay 2x for the "Complete Collection"!
    
    Kev
    

>Note 144.266               Leave as a legend, Larry                  266 of 266
>CSTEAM::FARLEY "Megabucks Winner Wannabee"          24 lines  30-SEP-1992 09:40
>                            -< steel no eggscuse! >-
>    If I was a managing editor of Peterson's (no small publisher btw) I
>    never would allow an issue to go to press if it had as many
>    inaccuracies as I perceive these to be.  The major trades have
>    significantly effected the balance of the league and these issues
>    should reflect those changes!  I mean, did they have a deadline to
>    meet?  Nope.  So why (here comes the stupid question) did the
>    journalists sacrifice accuracy?
>    
>    Kev
 
    Funny you should say that, Kev. I had a recent converstions with a guy
    who is in charge of a monthly magazine, "USA Soccer International" and 
    expressed the same sentiments. (BTW, I filled out a card for a free 
    subscription to this mag and I never really cared for anything other than 
    the photos.) For the issue that came out in late July, the BIG story was
    on Yugoslavia being banned form the Euro championships in June. Mind
    you, this all happened in early June, and nothing even mentioned the
    actual tournament, which Denmark had won almost a month before.
    
    Bottom line is if you are well organized and know what you are doing,
    the magazine production process, from writing to design and printing, can 
    be reduced dramatically. The bottom line is that people won't buy
    shoddy products, and even though you can sometimes get away with these
    things, it will cot you in the long run.
    
    Tom