Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Barry Sanders (no relation to the person mentioned in the p-name) wants to
    negotiate his contract to be the highest paid RB in the league.  Anyone
    know how long his contract is now?
    
    I say give it to him, make him happy...
    
    They need to draft a pass rusher and concentrate on defense.  Maybe
    trade for Fryar and give up Ware and a draft pick....

    I think Sanders had a 5-yr. deal at > $1M per.
    
    Dan

    Sounds like Sanders wants to establish himself as the "next" Eric
    Dickerson, what with having one good season and wanting to renegotiate
    right away!!
    
    JaKe
    

two good years Jake. He was over 1300 yards rushing his first year as well.
he lost the rushing title the first year by 10 yards simply because he sat
out sometime in the last game of the season cause it was a blowout. this year
he wins it.

give em the cash they got it he deserves it

mike 

>he lost the rushing title the first year by 10 yards simply because he sat
>out sometime in the last game of the season cause it was a blowout. this year
>he wins it.
     
    Yeah, well Barry won the rushing title this year for the same reason he
    didn't win it last year.  Turman Thomas basically sat out the last game
    for the Bills.  Barry only beat Thurman by 7 yards.  I think if Thurman
    would have played the last game, Barry wouldn't have as much of an
    argument when he tries to renegotiate.
    
    So when B.S gets his additional million dollars per year, he can thank
    the Bills for having such a good season that they could sit-out their
    starters in their last game.
    
    BTW, I think, B.S. is a good running back, I just don't think he's the
    best.
    
    -Paul
    

 Thanks Paul for the bad memory. Thomas sitting out was one of the contributing
 reasoning my FFL team took it on the chin in the superbowl. ;^)

 They certainly aren't many better than Sanders that's for sure. Probably
 Neal Anderson and Thomas are it...

 mike      

    Also consider that Sanders is the lone running back in a pass oriented
    offense.

Players who renegotiate should accept pay cuts without complaint when they 
have bad seasons.

If Barry Sanders was dumb enough to sign a five year contract in the current
market, he deserves to get screwed. 

I don't know what Sanders problems is.  I would gladly take his
salary......8^)

'Saw

    Theres a few more good RB's out there, no one mentioned emmitt smith
    who did pretty good as well as marion butts...And then the other RB
    who I feel is always a threat is Dickerson even though he missed like
    7 games and was out of sync.....
    								MAB
    

    re .5
    
    Paul, Barry didn't run the ball all that much in the last game either
    (something like 7 carries for 20 yards),so you point doesn't hold
    water.

>    Paul, Barry didn't run the ball all that much in the last game either
>    (something like 7 carries for 20 yards),so you point doesn't hold
>    water.
    
    Yes it does.
    
    Going into the game, Sanders was #2.  After the game he was #1 because
    Thomas really didn't play.  Sanders didn't finish #1 because he was a
    better runner, he sort of got it by default (again, I like Sanders, I
    just like Thomas better).  
    
    As to the other reply about Emmett Smith.  The one game I saw him, he
    looked awesome !  Sorry for the oversight.
    
    BTW DrMidnight, now the the Oilers are home helpin' the wives with the
    laundry and dishes, who do you like for the SB ?  (Raiders?)
    
    Go Bills!!
    

    Liking a player more than another does not make him better, if emmitt
    smith only had 20yrds in the last game how many yrds behind thomas was
    he going in 1....The person who wins wins....I guess if emmit had an
    extra 100yrds in the first game he would have won by a bigger margin.
    No shit....If's if's if's...bottom line Smith won and no one can say
    weather thomas would have passed him if he carried the ball 50times
    that last game but god.....Im gonna go out on a limb and say your a
    bills fan..
    								MaB

    Yes I am a Bills fan.  I don't think Thomas is the best running back in
    the NFL (neither is sanders).  My original point was that the reason
    Sanders will use to renegotiate his contract is that he won the rushing
    title and that he can thank the Bills.  The Bills were in a position
    the last game of the season where they didn't have to play their
    starters including Thomas.
    
    Yep Sanders won it.  And anybody could if if if it to death.  I really
    wasn't trying to dispute that, he should just thank Buffalo :-)
    
    -Paul

    I don't think Sanders backed his way in.  I think it would be
    interesting to see the number of rushes each had and then you
    could decide.  I'd guess Thomas had more rushes.  I know SI
    had a chart a couple of weeks ago that listed Sanders as averaging
    the most yards/attempt (rushing+passing) of any back in the league.
    And the reason Thomas didn't play more was coach's decision.  The
    reason Sanders didn't get it last year was his decision.  Fontes
    gave him the option and he chose not to go back in the game just for
    that.  That says something to me about him too.
    
    Another way of looking at it is, where would the Bills be without
    Thomas?  They have Kelly, Reed, Lofton and a defense.  What would
    the Lions have without Sanders?  Peete, maybe 2 receivers and a 
    questionable defense.  If he's worth a lot to that team, pay him.
    He's earned his money, not over 1 season, but 2.  Give Ware a pay 
    cut or ship him out.
    
    -Walt

Everything I've read or heard about Sanders is that he is one of the most 
humble guys in the game. He decided to sit out last year and not get the
rushing title. I doubt he would have minded doing the same this year. The
difference was that his team was losing this year and I bet he felt he should
be in there trying to help them win.

There's two basic types of running backs in the NFL. The Otis Anderson,Neal
Anderson,Bo Jackson types who use a large offensive line, speed and bulk to
smash their way forward and the Thurman Thomas, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith,
eric Metcalf types who use speed and quickness to make defenses miss.

Of the 2nd type I think Sanders is the best. He can stop on a dime and make 
people miss, He also has some incredible leg strenght and balance to pull
away after getting hit. Detroit needs to get him involved a little more in the
passing game (although he did catch a few screen and shuffle passes this year).

Without Sanders Detroit is a 2 win team. They only started wining in the
2nd half of the season when they started giving him the ball more.


Metz

    re .12
    
    Paul, I honstly believe (and I stated this before the playoffs) that
    the Oilers and Raiders were the AFC's best hopes in the Super Bowl.
    Nothing against the Bills, I just feel that the Silver and Black are
    back. And I learned the hard way that you NEVER bet against the
    Raiders in the playoffs. 
    
    If Buffalo can make big plays on D, they will win. It's that simple.
    
    Doc

>    And I learned the hard way that you NEVER bet against the
>    Raiders in the playoffs. 
    
    Unless you bet against 'em in the '85 playoffs against the Pats in LA.
    Or the '84 playoffs against Seattle.
    
    Joe

    re:.17 by Dock 00:00
      What a prophet eh!!!
                                 Denny

    Anyone know who they drafted besides Moore and Pritchett?

    Reggie Barrett, supposedly the best WR in the draft re: the Scouting
    Combine, but he slipped badly to 58th, and Kevin Scott a CB from
    Stanford.
    
    Dan

    Thanks...
    
    So, we're leaving the run and shoot, need defense, and we draft 2
    more receivers?  I hope they pan out....

I heard they are going to a modified run and Shoot, Walt. Detriot(tm) will 
probably draft a few TE's or projected converts into TE's later on in the draft
today. 

I agree that they needed defense more than they needed offense. I guess the 
theory is that you can't pass up a good "skill" player. Or you draft the "best
athelete available" or other such nonsensical cliches.

They shoulda drafted Moore and then all defense from then on.


Metz

    Dan -
    
    Why did Reggie Barrett slip so far?  I thought the Chargers would pick
    him up in the 2nd round, but they didn't.
    
    Glenn

    Well, they did lose Richard Johnson and Jason Phillips thru plan B,
    and they needed a big receiver.  Wonder how many they've drafted the
    last few years...

    Moore should be a good one - too much emphasis is placed on speed in
    the 40 ... remember, the so-called experts said that lack of speed was
    a "drawback" for Jerry Rice ....
    
    Where did Craig Erickson, Ricky Watters, Brett Farve and Shawn Moore go 
    to and what round ?
    
    Doc

    
>    Where did Craig Erickson, Ricky Watters, Brett Farve and Shawn Moore go 
>    to and what round ?
  
    Craig Erickson-5th round, Eagles
    Watters-2nd round, 49ers
    Favre-2nd round, Falcons
    Moore-11th round, Broncos
    
    Joe  
 

    Damn ... Moore really SLID ! Why ?
    
    And why did Erickson slip so far ? Doesn't the Miami name mean anything
    to anyone ?
    
    I was listening to WFAN last night, and it was said by [I forget his
    name] that the 49ers are primed for a BIG drop this year. Last year,
    they did not have the Walsh touch, but they got the Walsh-type
    personel. This year, it was neither, and Watters was considered a HUGE
    mistake .... we'll see ....

    
>    And why did Erickson slip so far ? Doesn't the Miami name mean anything
>    to anyone ?
   
    I think Erickson will turn out to be a good starter at the very least. 
    He dropped down a few rounds because he hurt his knee at the Hula Bowl.
    He probably slipped a bit because he was one of the leading preseason
    Heisman candidates, but fell short of those expectations *only* because
    Miami lost 2 games this year.
     
>    This year, it was neither, and Watters was considered a HUGE
>    mistake .... we'll see ....
    
    Watters will be a very good back in the NFL IMO.  I've heard talk that he
    probably would've been a Heisman candidate if he was used as a feature
    back in college.  The biggest weakness I saw in his game was his
    tendency to fumble.  
    
    Joe                    

    >Why did Reggie Barrett slip so far?
    
    I dunno.  But it makes the second year in a row the highest rated
    receiver by the Scouting Combine slipped badly.  Last year Reggie
    Rembert was picked by the Jets in the 3rd.  After drafting Moore in the
    supplemental, the Jets decided they didn't even want him and unloaded
    him to Cincinnatti for an LB and an OT.  I'm not aware that he even got
    playing time in Cinci.
    
    Dan

>    >Why did Reggie Barrett slip so far?
    
>    I dunno.  But it makes the second year in a row the highest rated
>    receiver by the Scouting Combine slipped badly.  Last year Reggie
>    Rembert was picked by the Jets in the 3rd.  After drafting Moore in the
>    supplemental, the Jets decided they didn't even want him and unloaded
>    him to Cincinnatti for an LB and an OT.  I'm not aware that he even got
>    playing time in Cinci.
    
>    Dan

     Rembert slipped because of his agent and Barrett slipped more because
     of unreal contracts demands. I don't think they have the same agent.
     Some of these guys don't understand you don't get 1st round money 
     unless you get picked in the 1st round.

     Rembert signed real late last year, then got hurt and spent most of last 
     year on the IR. Great move by the Jets to unload the brat.

Chuck

    re Erickson
    
    I heard that he didn't do well at the workouts.  And that many things
    were questioned concerning his arm strength, etc...
    
    I wasn't surprised at all that he slipped - most of the rags I read had
    him going in no earlier than the 4th round.
    
    JD

    Anyone know if Sanders is close to signing?  How much does he want?
    How much are they offering?  Hey, whats' goin on?
    
    Cowboy

    Any update about Sanders or Cofer?  Guess they didn't need them to
    embarrass Denver (haha...)
    

    I read last week that Sanders and the management are talking (and
    management DOES feel that he's underpaid at $800,000).  Hope they
    come to an agreement soon.
    
    Cowboy
    

    >>Hope they come to an agreement soon.                              
    
    Me too. I own him in our FFL league.

    Some sportcaster (forget which channel) mentioned something about
    Sanders having a TE and a FB this year.
    
    What gives? Has Detroit gone back to a traditional I formation again
    after all?
    
    Commander Scott
    
    P.S.  If they did I predict Sander's yard/rush to go down 1yd. and
    Detroit  wins 2 less games than last year.

    The Lions are supposed to use a TE atleast part of the time
    this year.  I haven't heard anything about a FB.  Also, 
    Sanders is supposed to catch more passes--he is supposed to
    be used like Buffalo uses T. Thomas.
    
    If the Lions are successful, defenses will have their hands
    full chasing Sanders all over the field and trying to cover
    the receivers at the same time.  Last year defenses didn't
    seem too concerned about the receivers.  Probably because
    there was so many dropped balls, etc.
    
    Just watching teams chase Sanders is worth the price of a ticket,
    IMO.  If they win that's enough better.
    
    Cowboy

    I knew about the TE, but I caught a 30 sec blurb hightlighting Sanders. 
    It was to the effect that Sanders made such an impact that the Lions
    were designing their O around him and giving him a TE and a blocking back. 
    Just thought it sounded wrong that's all.
    
    Sanders is a very good RB.  My personal feeling though, is that he is a
    more effective runner in a spread O than a tight running-oriented O.  I
    think if they went to Giants style O, Sanders production would not
    improve noticably.
    
    Besides, last year the Lions problem was not the offense, but the
    defense and the inability to get steady (injury-free) production from
    the QB.
    
    Commander Scott

    ESPN said something about the Lions offering Sanders a 2-year
    extension but would not re-nego his remaining years of his
    contract.  I thought ESPN said that it would be guaranteed
    that Sanders would be the top paid NFL player--including
    Montana (4M/year).  Anybody hear that too?  Or was I asleep?
    
    Cowboy

    Sanders finally got his contract extension and, according to ESPN,
    will be the highest paid non-QB in the NFL.  It's not real clear
    as to how all the money adds up but Sanders will receive $2.1M
    signing bonus paid over the next 3 years.  This season he will
    receive $.6M and get $.2M annual raises for the next 2 years.
    
    Also, from the paper, "His contract calls for the Lions to pay
    bonuses to certain linesmen if Sanders' statistics pass certain
    levels.  Sanders, who said he came up with the idea in January,
    and others were vague about which players would receive money,
    how much they would receive or at what level the bonuses would
    kick in.
    
    That reminds me about a little article back afew weeks about
    Sanders college teammate Thurman Thomas.  Thomas had bought
    a $.25M insurance policy with Oklahoma State as the benefiary
    and encouraged other pros to do the same for their schools.
    These two guys, being millionaires, are still class acts, IMO,
    and with so much crap that goes on in pro sports, its great
    to read this stuff.
    
    A lil' bit teary-eyed this morn,
    Cowboy

    I thought that Elway was the highest paid non-QB in the NFL?
    
    Deen to wonk?
    
    Mark.

    
    Cowboy,
    
    	You're probably teary-eyed from all the fruit (prunes?)
    	you eat in the morning.  :^)
    
    LuFay,
    
    
    	Do yourself!  :^)
    
    Claybone

    > Cowboy,
    
    > 	You're probably teary-eyed from all the fruit (prunes?)
    > 	you eat in the morning.  :^)
    
    
    > Claybone

    
    Nah, I'm just a 'regular' guy....
    
    
    The Lions really stunk this weekend!  Atleast when they tried
    the 3rd string QB Detroit started to move the ball.  What was
    his name anyway, Carter, or something like that?
    
    Anyone hear how bad Sanders' ribs are?  Could be he wasn't
    ready to take hits yet.  26 yards on 4 carries isn't too
    bad for his first series tho'.
    
    Cowboy

    The Lions musta surprised Miami in their 17-13 win.  Detroit (and
    Miami) play mistake-free football until the last 4 minutes when
    Shawn Lee tipped, then intercepted Peete's pass.  Lee ran it to
    Detroit's 3 yard line but couldn't score on 4 plays.  The Lion's
    defense looked great, compared to some of the games last year.
    They sacked Marino twice, plus another that was called back, and
    kept him to 16 of 34 for 174 yards.  Miami's Sanders look-alike,
    Higgs, 19-71, got most of his yards in the 1st half.
    
    Sanders looked 100% and carried 32 times for 143 yards plus 1
    catch for 14.  Peete seemed sharp but threw several away due to
    Miami coverage, was 13-24-1-173.
    
    Detroit's plan of ball control worked well and definitely kept
    Marino out of the game, especially in the first half.  Overall,
    Detroit's possession was 32:05 to Miami's 27:55.  This time of
    possession (and last week's against Green Bay) is an extreme
    improvement over last year's numbers.  With Sanders running the
    ball (even in obvious running downs) Detroit has shown that
    they can run time off the clock, along with the occasional pass.
    
    This win over Miami ruined the party for both Shula and Marino
    since Shula was hoping to win his 300th NFL victory and it was
    Marino's 30th birthday.
    
    Points scored:
    Det-FG by Murray
    Mia-FG by Stoyanovich
    Mia-TD by Higgs run
    Det-TD by Green catch
    Det-TD by Peete run (Peete received penalty after 'high-fiving' fans)
    Mia-FG by Stoyanovich
    
    Cowboy

    Hats off to Detroit.
    
    As a frustrated ex-fan, I never gave the Lions a chance to accomplish
    anything ever - especially now that I've moved out of state and can't
    follow them.  I have a few notes to that effect.
    
    So a couple of their wins have been cliffhangers or a bit questionable. 
    They are still 5-1 and in sole possesion of 1st place in the NFC
    Central.  This is something I personally thought was not possible. 
    While this isn't any earth-shattering news yet, it certainly makes the
    division title a legitimit possibility.
    
    Who knows, after how many decades, the Lions may actually have their
    act together.
    
    Commander Scott

    What a comeback by the Lions.  They were down 20-3 with about 7 minutes
    left in the game.
    
    Joe

    	The Lions' Faud Reviez kicked his 16th straight field goal,
    breaking the team record set in 1983 by Ricky's younger brother
    Benny Ricardo.

    According to the papers I saw, that information is incorrect.  Reviez
    kicks for Minnesota and Eddie Murray is still kicking for Detroit.
    
    John

    	Ricky and Benny will be glad to know that John...
    

    Eddie Murray kicks for the Lions.  Lasorda let him have the day off
    since the Dodgers gagged.

Wow, Lions go down big to the 49ers.

I turned the game on late, and there's this new dude at QB for the
9ers, #13.  I'm figuring that maybe Young is hurt or something....

Then I see the score....

Whew....

'Saw

       Actually, for the time of possession and the total yardage the 9ers
    racked up, it wasn't all that big of a score.
                                       Denny

    Liked to see it....
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    The Viking-Patriots game ran into overtime, so I missed the 1st half
    of the Lions-49ers game.  
    
    But from the announcers, the 2nd quarter was the big scoring quarter
    21-3.  Everything was downhill from there for the Lions.  Sanders was
    only 8-26 or something like that.  
    
    The 49ers looked like they're starting to get back on track.  This game
    (to me) yet again showed the weak QB play for the Lions.
    
    Speaking of Lions' QBs, where is Andre Ware? I would have assumed he
    would see some playing time in a blow-out.
    
    Commander Scott

 Ah it was as usual the Niners put the sprinklers on the field all week to
 reduce Barry's traction...

 cheatin niners!!!

    
     You Know....  I can't beleive they get away with that crap !!
    
    ;^)
    
    Big Game

>>     You Know....  I can't beleive they get away with that crap !!

 at 3-4 and at the bottom of the NFC West you're absolutely right Big Game
 they must be watching the Donks!

 *************Donko Rules for Success*********
 
	Rule 1 finish last
	Rule 2 draft high
	Rule 3 squeeze by all other lasted place teams for easy 8 wins
	Rule 4 Win 3 more game at home with Clemson/Donko Refs..
	Rule 5 Let QB call his own plays cause he just
               gets confused by the signals  

  ;^)

  mike

    Childs you Jerk !!!
    
     Your Damn `9er's  aren't going to even make the `offs this year so
    just hold it down would ya!!!  Read the Box Scores today you Butt
    Head   Donks 5-2 leading the AFC West and only one game behind the
    hearlded Soilers and Bill's   Give it a rest !!!
    
    Big Game

 Ah stuff it yourself BG...I despise the niners as much as the next guy. geez
 they're almost as low on the totem pole as the Donks, Lakers and the Irish...

 Besides KC how many winning teams have the Donks beat this year?

 mike

The Niners did everything that they planned; the Lions did none.  The real
turning point IMHO was Campbell's fumble inside the 20 with the score 14-3
and less than 3 minutes to go in the half.  That set SF up for their half-
closing drive that effectively put the game out of reach.

/Ed

    Sigh...
    
    Oh well, back to reality so far.
    
    Ware has an attitude problem, which is why he's 3rd string...

Who the heck is 2nd string? Isn't gagliano gone ?

I hope they give the ball to Barry more than 7 times this week...


Metz

...with an Achilles tendon problem.  Could be an opportunity for Ware, but right
now, Eric Kramer gets the nod at QB.  Kramer played in the CFL for a few years,
and was on the Lions' DL last year.  This past Sunday, he threw two TDs, as
substitute for Peete (after his injury), in 34-14 victory over Cowboys.

/Ed

This says a lot about Andre Ware doesn't it ?


Metz

    Send him to the Pats.... anywhere...
    
    

Kramer played fairly well, but turnovers and a bad (IMO) interference call
ruined the day for Detroit.  Also, some poor play-calling from the sidelines.
As was consistently pointed out on TV, the short passes to the slot man in
the flat were open all day because the Bears stacked the defense against
Sanders.  Yet the Lions kept trying the 3 tight end alignment in the second
half--even after not succeeding with it in the first half--and Barry was
was practically stopped cold.  Most of his yardage came before intermission.

/Ed

    Well, the Lions avenged their earlier loss to the Bears.  This leaves
    the exactly where they were heading into the 1st matchup - tied.
    
    This is the 1st full Detroit game that I've seen this year.  They look
    far better than I thought any Detroit team would be.  The recent
    tragedy seems to have focused the team.  They still need a quality QB
    though.
    
    The Lions went to a 2 TE alignment several times, and it seemed
    reasonable effective today.   They ran and passed out of it, so they
    didn't bring it in only to run.  Since the Bears had made up their mind
    to stop the run, that was the only way to get rushing yards.
    
    Scott

    I'm looking for game summary/individual stats. from the
    Thursday Nov. 28th game Chicago at Detriot. Can anyone help?
    
    Michael

    Lions won, other than that, not much... Sanders didn't score, only
    1 TD from what I remember...

    The Lions have a big game this weekend against the Packers.  The game
    is a must win, since this would clinch a playoff spot.  A loss puts
    them back in the pack, and they lose practically all tie-breakers. 
    The Lions will have a tough time against the Bills next week, so a loss
    this week would put them in a hole.
    
    This would also be their first win on grass, though they haven't played
    many on grass this year.  Fortunetly, the Packers seem to be very much
    in disarray lately.  This should be a win.  
    
    Finally I am looking forward to a Packer game.  If my luck holds, this
    will probubly be the week that the networks show 2 games in the early
    timeslot.
    
    Scott

    Detroit went a long way toward removing the "Dome Syndrome" monkey from
    their back yesterday.  Conditions were as bad as the Ice Bowl, and the
    Lions still got their win.  It wasn't pretty, but then no games in bad
    weather are pretty.
    
    If the Lions manage somehow to win next week (long shot), it should
    completely kill the monkey.
    
    Scott

    I don't feel real bad about this Outdoor thing, since 3 of the 4 games
    were at SF, Washington and Chicago.

    So, let's try this...
    
    Say the Lions are all 2 feet high, except a full-size Fontes.  They
    play the Cowboys at home.  Who would win?
    
    Ok, say the Lions play the Cowboys, and you don't play, oh Peete,
    Cofer, Ball and Campbell, and you have to start Herman Moore, oh yeah,
    and Andre Ware has to see some playing time.  Who would win?
    
    Sorry, I won't get on a roll...

    ...Da Loinz!! I love it when the Cowboys lose!!
                                          Denny

    Congrats Lions,
    I for one underestimated them by a long stretch. What a performance,
    simply dominating. Kramer sure shut up Castillas and del Rio.
    And Walt, crow all you want today you deserve it, while the rest
    of us eat well-deserved crow. And that Sanders is a weapon even
    when not fully utilized. The Cowboys had to be thinkin' of him all
    day. He sure sent a message to the 'Skins with his TD run.
    Should be an interesting game next weekend.
    
    MikeL
     

    Ok, let's try this.  Say you have a team the Dallas Cowboys who went
    1-15 two years ago.  Say they also went 7-9 last year.  Let's say also
    they had the leagues worst offense one season ago.  For arguments sake
    let's say they had one of the greatest turn-a-rounds in league history
    over the last two seasons finishing 12-6 this year.  Also, let's say
    they had 4 offensive players selected for the pro-bowl.
    
    Congrats Lion fans, you deserved the win yesterday.  However, Erik
    Kramer will *NOT* *EVER* lead his team to the superbowl.  On the other
    hand, I believe you can take it to the bank that one day soon, Troy
    Aikman and co. will be in the Superbowl.  BTW, Casillas comments were
    correct, Kramer was a *SCAB*.  He played great however.  I give him
    credit.
    
    WILDCAT

    Dang 'CAT,
    Sounds like a leetle sour grapes. I believe Dallas will be back, but
    how cain you say Kramer never will and Aikman will. Pure conjecture.
    And even if Kramer was a scab back then, is that reason for Casillas
    and del Rio to poormouth him? He shut them up, period. Ya think any of
    the Lions care now if he was a scab a few years back? NEIN.
    
    MikeL
    

>    Ok, let's try this.  Say you have a team the Dallas Cowboys who went
>    1-15 two years ago.  Say they also went 7-9 last year.  Let's say also
>    they had the leagues worst offense one season ago.  For arguments sake
>    let's say they had one of the greatest turn-a-rounds in league history
>    over the last two seasons finishing 12-6 this year.  Also, let's say
>    they had 4 offensive players selected for the pro-bowl.
    
    Say that the Cowboys are calling in for T-times today.
    
>    However, Erik
>    Kramer will *NOT* *EVER* lead his team to the superbowl.  On the other
>    hand, I believe you can take it to the bank that one day soon, Troy
>    Aikman and co. will be in the Superbowl.  BTW, Casillas comments were
>    correct, Kramer was a *SCAB*. 
    
    I hear sour grapes complement crow very well.  You obviously prove
    correct.  8-)
    
    	--dan'l

    Your correct MikeL.  Kramer did shut Casillas and DelRio up big time. 
    Can you blame me for being a little sour!  A beating like yesterdays
    *HURTS*.  I really think JJ was outcoached yesterday by Wayne Fontes. 
    I'm a little upset that Dallas didn't try some different looks
    defensively.  It was obvious in the first half that Kramer was hot, and
    would beat them single handedly if given the chance.  I read in the
    paper where there were some Dallas defensive players that still were
    not giving Kramer any respect.  If that's so, then they are truly poor
    sports.
    
    Good game Detroit.  I've seen four games in the Pontiac Silverdome the
    past decade, and I've never been to a louder stadium.  The fans really
    support the Lions even during losing seasons.  Unfortunately, Dallas
    has never played well there.  They'll get another chance during the
    regular season next year.
    
    WILDCAT

    OUCH Dan'l.  I'm taking as bad a beating today as Dallas did yesterday. 
    I'm gonna crawl back to the SEC note tail between legs!  At least I can
    revel in UK's victory for a few days :-)
    
    WILDCAT (Who's always really liked the Lions better anyways)
    
    :-)

    Oh no WILDCAT,
    Don't start 'Vaning. Stick with them 'Boys, win or lose.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Casillas is one to talk.  Granted the guy has had his share of mental
    problems and his has been a sad story indeed, but you'd think he'd then
    have the human decency to lay off a guy who did what it took to put his
    own career together again, too.  Casillas had to be talked out of 
    outright quitting on his teammates during the season several times in 
    Atlanta...
             
    glenn
    

    1) I'm sure Casillas and DelRio had nothing to do with their team
    losing.
    
    2) Kramer isn't their first string QB.  Peete is.
    
    3) Cowboys may have been 1-15 two years ago, but that's pre Smith,
    Harper, Maryland, etc....  They were 7-9 last year, 11-5 this year?
    The Lions went from 6-10 to 12-4.  Give them some credit...
    

    The Lions were unbeatable yesterday, the Cowboys were no match for the
    accuracy of Kramer and the pass rush that the Lions exhibited
    throughout the game.
    
    I agree that JJ was outcoached and that he made some mistakes, but I
    really believe the Lions were on a mission yesterday.  Aikman should
    not have been brought into the game as he made things worse.  HE really
    disappointed me in the sense that he was complaining about not playing
    and when given the chance contributes with 3 TO.
    
    Good luck to the Lions in RFK, you will need it.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    
    	Kramer is playing...nuff said!
    
    B.A.

    Lions cannot and will not play well on natural turf. They need the dome
    for that to happen. They're absolutly gawd awful on grass. All there
    losses are outdoors where real football is played.
    
    Kramer had an execellent game in fact he had a spectacular game, but
    those things balance out and things will not be so easy next week
    against the Deadskins...especially if it is as muddy as last week.
    
    Washington should have no problem with Detroit....

    Not to mention that Detoit Did not lose at home all year, and still
    are unbeating in Domes.  So if they make it past Washington (ouch)
    they just may have a shot at it.  Hey they beat buffalo a few short
    weeks ago and everyone is talking that they beat 2nd stringers.  Theyll
    be out for blood if they meat buffalo in the bowl.  Also remember how
    the bills made out last year in the big game, maybe Jim Kelly is the 
    next John Elway :-)
    
    	Come on Lions Make it intresting...
    								MaB

    	Great game plan by Jackie Gleason's love child (Wayne Fontes)
    to lead the Detriot Loins� over Da Boyz, but unless they plan on
    bringing a big tarp to RFK their season ends Sunday.
    
    				/Don

�Also remember how
�    the bills made out last year in the big game, maybe Jim Kelly is the 
�    next John Elway :-)
    
    You should have added about 10 more :-).  The Giants did not blow out
    the Bills, unlike any other opponent which has gone up against Elway's
    Broncos.  Heck, the Broncos even displaced the Pats in the record book
    for worse SB blowout loss.

>    You should have added about 10 more :-).  The Giants did not blow out
>    the Bills, unlike any other opponent which has gone up against Elway's
>    Broncos.  Heck, the Broncos even displaced the Pats in the record book
>    for worse SB blowout loss.

I think the best compliment to the Bills came from Bill Parcells after the
game.

He said "If we played the game again tomorrow, it would probably turn out
Buffalo 20, New York 19"


The Bills have a damn good squad.  If Bruce Smith were 100%, they'd be
downright scary....


'Saw

    Not giving up yet... a lot of people said they'd done yesterday about
    a week ago.  
    
    They lost at Washington without Sanders.  They lost at SF and learned
    from it.  They played well at Chicago, and lost but what, 10?  Ok
    the Tampa game sucked, but what can you do.  They've won their last
    2 games outside, I think that stat is overrated...

    Too bad FFL is over I still got guys left this weekend.
    
    Acapulco Gold - Rypian WAS, Sanders DET, W.Green DET, Clark WAS,
    McKeller BUF.
    
    Juneau Whats - Rypian WAS, Thomas BUF, Monk WAS, Clark DET.

    Last week's lineup for me...
    
    QB - Miller
    RB - Sanders, Smith
    WR - Givens
    TE - Novacek,McKeller (2 TE set)
    K  - Norwood
    C  - Reeves
    
    R1 - White

    Prediction:
    
    	Foreskins	27
    
    	Lions		31
    
    I'm not Skeerd
    
    
    Big Game Hunta

    
    In note 36.735 a Mr. Robichaud of Fort Lee, New Jersey writes...
    " JD's memory has become clouded by all that fresh air..." 
    
    What I wants to know is, what does JD think about them wimpy, runnin'
    and shootin' Lions planting a foot dead in the ass of those rough
    and tough and all that stuff, smash mouth Cowboys ? Perspiring minds
    wants to know.
    

    
    Skins will cover...

    
     Yes Monsieur LeGroaner, the point spread is indeed 13.5 and the
    o/u is 43.5.

    JD would probably answer like this. "It feels the same way as when the
    rough and tough Redskins planted their foot deep inside the lions ass
    when they were beaten 45 to ZIP in the first game of the season and
    probably again on Sunday which will mean the Lions began and ended the
    season the same way.     

    	Actually I would like to see the lions win but there is no dome in
    RFK or the home crowd noise that they seem to need and thrive on.

      Don't be suprised to see the Lions play a good game.  If Kramer plays
    another career game,  then it should be close.  If not,  then the skins
    are in just to lose to the AFC in bowl.
    
    	Tim

      re .99

      Actually Ben (or is it 'Don't look' ), JD isn't a Cowboy's fan. He
     just despises the run n' shoot and has made his feeling well known 
     here in Sportsnotes. Which is why I wonder how he feels about the 
     Lions beating the dog snot out of *your* Cowboys using the run n' shoot.

    
     BTW- Welcome to Sportsnotes. Hope you read the sign at the door that
          said "Abandon hope all ye who enter here especially ye Cowboys
          fans."
    

    Few people are giving the Lions much of chance this weekend.  However,
    one thing strikes me as odd - On several occasions, commentators have
    stated that Barry Sanders prefers grass to turf.  Is it just the injury
    factor, or am I missing something?  If there is a reason for Barry's
    preferrence, (like Barry retaining good traction/cutting ability) then
    this game will not be a gimme.
    
    Scott

    
    re. -1
    
    Barry Sanders has said that he prefers to run on grass than the
    turf.  One of the reasons that Washington is such a favorite
    is their ability to stop the run and shoot offense.  The problem
    is the 3 wins they had over run and shoot offenses there wasn't
    a Barry Sanders in the backfield.
    
    Last years game against washington in the dome gives me reason to
    hope for a Lions victory.  The lions were leading by 17 pts midway
    through the 3rd quarter when Rutledge was inserted.  He brought
    Washington back to tie the game and washington eventually won
    in OT.  This led to Fontes modifying the run and shoot so it
    could possess the ball.
    
    \pjb

    RE .99
    
    So they got the dog snot beat out of them, no big deal, that happens to
    alot of teams. Doesn't make the winner an awsome team. Just means the
    winner had an execellent day while the looser had a terrible day. Just
    ask Chicago about Candlestick. 
    
    	 Was that even a run and shoot offense the skins used against
    the lions in week one? That indeed was a long time ago but still 
    happened. Look for a control game from the skins. They won't have to
    worry about Barry because they will have the ball most of the game.

I think it says a lot for the Lions that they GOT to the NFC
Championship game.  If you equate that game to the old NFL championship
game, it's been almost 40 years since they've been there...

My hat  is off to the Lions.


The Skins, and Joe Gibbs?  Obviously a quality program....


'Saw

    	I think they threw up a graphic that the Lions had not
    	won a championship game since back in the '30's, against
    	the BOSTON Redskins at Fenway Park. Not sure about it being
    	the Redskins, but they did say 1935, Boston, and Fenway Park.
    
    	Scott

    The Lions won 4 championship games - 1935, 1952, 1953 and 1957. 
    Yesterday was their first championship game appearance since 1957.
    
    The graphic read that the Lions have never won in Washington and their
    last road win over the Redskins came when the Redskins were in Boston
    in 1935.  The Redskins moved from Boston to Washington after the 1936
    season.
    
    John

    	Hey, I knew if I muffed it, John would set me straight.
    
    	Scott

    Re Tommy -
    
    
    So, the RUn and SHoot continues to win some and lose some.  Of course
    the Lions only seem to be able to win indoors and on turf.  As
    witnessed yesterday, they got their butts shellacked by a real man's
    team.
    
    Personally, I don't think the COwboys were that good, and I won't be
    surprised if they don't make the playoffs next year (Of course, in the
    NFC East, that's not too surprising).  Meanwhile, the Lions play in a
    division with one other good team and 3 patsies.  
    
    Lions were the home team, and the favs - they should have one.  What's
    the big deal?
    
    JD

    re .110
    
    It says a lot about the R&S in that it helped take the Lions from a
    2-14 diaster in 1988 to the NFC title game yesterday.
    
    Moreover, it kept YOUR mouth shut JD until today. It is also of note
    that the three R&S teams all made the playoffs.
    
    Where did teh Run & Punt get the Midgets ?
    
    But I'll give you your due fella ... the "win some and lose some" is a
    MASSIVE concession coming from your lips ... :-)
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. Detroit won the 1957 title game over Cleveland bya 59-14 margin. I
    wonder why Whitehair and Gronowski did clarify this ?

>    Where did teh Run & Punt get the Midgets ?
    
The Giants offense this year was not the coordinating, clock eating 
offense they had the year before.  Handley attempted to change the
offense, and it became something more equated to "a little of this,
a little of that, not enough of either".

When the Giants offense (as it was in 1990) is clicking, they can
play in a dome, on turf, on natural grass, in bad weather etc etc etc.


The R&S teams don't do so well outside....or so it would appear...

    
    Doc -
    
    The Giants woeful run and punt beat the Oilers.  And went 3-1 vs. the
    horrible AFC Central.  The Oilers, facing grind it out teams, went 1-3
    vs. the NFC East.  The NFC East, playing smash mouth, has won 3 of the
    last 5 super bowls.  As a Division, the NFC East has 6 Super Bowl
    Trophy's - and a chance for a 7th.  No other division is close.
    
    The Run and SHoot has changed - you claim 3 teams ran it in the
    playoffs.  The Oilers use it as it was meant to be used.  No tight end.
    Pass sets up the run.  The Falcolns - is that really a run and shoot? 
    The Red Gun is more of Gamble and Gamble ala Granville.  The Lions use
    a tight end, and feature Barry Sanders.  After it not working, they
    changed it this season - and flourished.
    
    And what I've said still bears true.  It still hasn't proved it can win
    consistently outdoors in bad weather.  The Oilers are bad outside fo
    the dome.  The Lions are Woeful outside of a dome.
    
    JD

    Congrats to the `Skins...  I need some crow here too, for picking
    a Loin victory !!
    
    Big Game Hunta

    One problem with stating that the run-and-shoot is a poor bad weather
    offense is that Houston and Detroit are Dome teams.  It becomes 
    difficult to separate whether 1) the teams are bad road team 2) are bad
    grass teams 3) the offense is ineffective in bad conditions
    
    Detroit in particular has a history of being a bad road team ever since
    moving into the dome.  To qualify that, some people would claim that
    they were simply bad, and moving to the Silverdome allowed them to at
    least win the home games.  Pre-r&S I believe the Lions had a season
    were they were 8-0 home, 0-8 road.  This year in particular, calling
    Washington in September and Tampa Bay as "adverse conditions" might be
    a stretch.
    
    For Houston and Atlanta I am not familar with their road/home records,
    but the same arguement might apply.
    
    To date, the r&s appears to make contenders out of mediocre teams.  Not
    visa versa.  It takes time to evaluate a new system.
    
    Scott

    
    So I missed it... did the Skins cover easily as I predicted?
    

    What's up with Robert Clark? 
    
    Jeff

    Well, the Lions kept it competitive for a while.  The opening game
    jitters and the missed FG killed any chance at an upset.  Still in all,
    I'll take a 12-4 season, with an appearance in the NFC championship
    game.  They lost to a better team, plain and simple.   Sanders is
    better than the Washington backs, but Rypien is better than Kramer,
    The Posse is better than the Detroit corp, Mann and company are better
    than the Lion line without Ball, and the talent took over in the second
    half.
    
    JD, what's with the TE kick?  They only use one in goal-line
    situations.  The basic offense is still Sanders and 4 WR's, even in
    3rd and short situations.  Won't get a high draft pick and they'll get
    a tougher schedule, so we'll see if this team peaks or not.
    
    -Walt

    Please post the Lions schedule here...
    
    I guess it will be time for Doc to choose sides Turkey day.... Houston
    invades the Silverdome...
    
    -Walt
    

Doc will choose sides the friday after thanksgiving...

:-)

    The R&S extravanganza .... if someone could post the Oiler's scheudle
    in the Oiler note, I'd appreicate it. 
    
    Houston plays the NFC Central, and have only 6 games against teams with
    a .500 or better record (Buffalo, Chicago, Detroit, Miami, Denver (?),
    and ????), which is really suprising, but also note that they will not
    be national TV that much - Indy, NE, SD, and Tampa Bay (gag me,
    please), will be on before Houston.

      The oilers play the afc central,  and I don't think any of those
    teams except for houston was .500 or better.
    
    HTH
    	Tim

    Sigh..
    
    They go back to an offense with a TE and try to take the pressure off
    Peete and the running game goes to hell.  Maybe the run and shoot was
    the way to go.... what do you think JD?
    

    Ever since Fontes got rid of the strict R&S and dumped Mouse Davis
    the running game has been sinking. They got lucky last year playing the
    2nd half of the season emotionally charged.
    
    Think that coach of the year Fontes will be smart enough to figure this
    one out on his own or should I send him a nice letter? He's got one of
    the quickest backs in the league that is a holy terror when he gets
    room to run, had an offense that was designed to give Sanders holes
    galore and to get him into the secondary as soon as possible, was
    paying dividends galore and he scraps it to go back into the standard
    conservative NFL offense when he got rid of his standard offensive
    linemen and tight ends year earlier....
    
    What an idiot...
    
    I certainly hope he ends this failure of an offense in another week...
    
    Metz
    

    The problem with the Lions can be summed up in 2 words:
    
    		
    	
    
    			Dan Henning!
    
    
    The guy stinks.  He did well in Washington because of everyone else, he
    bit it in SD and he'll bite it in Detroit.  
    
    I can't figure Detroit out.  For the first time since Columbus found
    America the Lions made it to the playoffs with the R&S.  They
    subsequently drop it, bring in boring Henning to install a
    "traditional" offense and the drop like a brick.  You figure it!
    I only wish that Denver had gotten Henning so the Broncos would be 1-3
    now. 
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn
    
    

    I tend to agree, Detroit had a good thing going and they threw it away. 
    Here was an offense generating more than enough points with only an
    average QB.  So what do they do?  Lose the Ofensive coordinater and
    tinker with the offense.  
    
    They were working on the wrong side of the house.  If anything, they
    should have been expermenting with the defense.  The offense was doing
    fine.  Bringing in a conservative run-oriented coach like Henning was
    the worst thing to do.
    
    Granted the R&S needs some tuning and some additional wrinkles.  In its
    base form it's a little predictable and defenses can dictate what it
    can do a little easier that other offensive schemes.  But there always
    options like some type of cross blocking or traps and maybe moving the
    inside WR out away from the O-line to further isolate the LBs.  Bigger
    possesion type inside WRs would be another possibility to do some
    crack-back blocks (pass-catching would still be priority #1).  But to
    throw away the whole offensive scheme like this....
    
    Looks like its time to start following Atlanta ad old faithful Houston. 
    Detroit has lost its advantage and recieved very little in return.
    
    Scott

       Lions have gone down hill since Raymond Berry left!!
                                      Denny

�>< Note 59.127 by SCHOOL::RIEU "Read his lips...Know new taxes" >


�       Lions have gone down hill since Raymond Berry left!!

So have the Patriots.

    Everyone forgets that the Lions LOST two members of their offensive
    line -= Utley and Adransiak (spelling?) - which has contributed to the
    woeful running and offensive attack.
    
    JD

The old offense worked pretty good in the post season without Utley....

Metz

Speaking of Utley, I haven't heard anything at all about him.

How is he doing?  Is he rehabbing okay?  Is there any chance that the
paralysis can be overcome?  


'Saw

    Still rehabbing... takes a while...
    
    I didn't forget.  But the lineman went from a pass oriented blocking
    scheme with Sanders running draws to a power blocking one.  They're
    not power blockers.  

When are Fontes, et. al. going to learn from other organizations and fix the
Lions' problem?  There is only one problem.  The problem's name is Dan
Henning.

Henning will eventually tune up the offense to the point of looking good
enough to continue losing.  Then you Lion fans will really be perplexed.

Take it from someone who suffered with this guy for 3 years; HENNING STINKS!

Start the fan momentum now, so you don't have to suffer with this next year
as well.  DUMP HENNING!!  He's a loser.


Charger Doug

    So, I guess Barry Sanders isn't a real running back.  He can only run
    when he's in that phoney  offense and matching up against defensive
    backs.  He's got to get a macho implant so he cain be a real running
    back  ~/~
    
    JD

    J_e Walt_n is available!!
    
    JaKe
    

    re  .-1...
    
    Happy�, Joy� (TM)

>
>    Happy�, Joy� (TM)


Uh, Walt, where I went to school, I think we would have said it as

     Happy�, Joy� (tm)



'Saw

    I was happier than usual?

>
>    I was happier than usual?
>


Oh, okay.  No problem, just checking 8^)