Conference 7.286::sports_91

    
    1991 - the year of Swindell!

Have to love that movie Major League....

I like that Stadium there in Cleveland.  I hope that they don't build
a dome and move the team....That stadium has character...

'Saw

    
    I think the movie was filmed in Milwaukee... not in Cleveland...

Iceman --

The exterior shots were of Cleveland.  I've only been there once, but
I'd remember it from the air (and the opening scenes were from the air)
because it was a gloriously sunny morning when we went there.

I recognized the stadium too, because on the way back to the airport
we toured the city and went by the park.

And again, the women of Cleveland are lucious indeed.  What I saw in 
downtown at rush hour was pure poetry...and I mean Shelley and Keats!!!!


Anyway, I really enjoyed that movie...Charlie Sheen as Wild Thing was
too funny....

'Saw

    
    re: -1
    
    
    Next time you're in Cleveland let me know - I'll clue you in to all the
    hotspots... 

Sounds good.  I don't travel much anymore, (and with the new travel
policies thank God -- I stay in better places when I'm on vacation than
what we're authorized for now....)

But, Allen-Bradley is in Highland Heights, and you never know when I
might have to go out there....

'Saw

>    Next time you're in Cleveland let me know - I'll clue you in to all the
>    hotspots... 
    
    You mean like the river that caught on fire?
    

>>And again, the women of Cleveland are lucious indeed.  What I saw in 
>>downtown at rush hour was pure poetry...and I mean Shelley and Keats!!!!
    
    Those women were from the busload of Pittsburghers that went up there
    for the tour of "the world's only inhabited raw sewage dump,
    Clevescum!!"
    
    The real Cleveland "women" were out grazing when you were there, 'Saw.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    I hate to bring it up in here, cause I'll surely jinx the poor guy, but
    what's the scoop on this Alfred Belle..   Sounds like he's gonna make
    us all forget about the other Belle  (aka Jooooeeeey).  
    
    /Jeff

He IS the other Belle.

Fresh out of alcohol treatment.

He's trying to lose his rep as a headcase..

daryll

    
    So, you're saying this is Joey, redone and renamed to Albert!   
    
    Ah, now I understand clearly...   It just won't be the same though..  
    
    Aaaaaaaaallllllbeeert!    
    
    

    
    Two more for Big Al yesterday..  brings his pre-season total to 10.  
    
    Please, do it when it counts too, Albert!  

    Indians win today's early game at Fenway 1-0 in 13 innings.  Brook
    Jacoby's solo HR in the top of the 13th was the only run on either
    side.  
    
    
    py

    
    	The Tribe has been looking pretty good lately.......hope they
    keep it up.  When Jacoby got to the plate, I said, here is your chance,
    for blowing it the last time you were up.  And, he did!  Out of here!
    
    	I can't find too much fault with this team this year, but, the
    season is still very, very young.
    
    	WAHOO!
    

    
    	Well, the Indians are the same old team we've gotten used to
    over the last several decades.....win one, loose a few, win one
    loose a few more, then loose a few more and more and more.
    
    	Highlights:  Candiotti has pitched well this year and so has
    			Swindell.
    
    	Lowlights:  No hitting.  Cole has been unproductive is base
    			running.  Doug Jones is washed up as a relief
    			man.  Belle is still the same...back to A.
    			
    
    	lots of other problems....
    
    			another lost season!   Already!
    
    	The Chief
    

    
    What is the scope on Albert Belle? Why did he change his name from
    Joey?
    
    It is a shame that he is a headcase because he is a decent player and
    could have played baseball for along time. I heard that the Indians
    have had it with him and he probably will not be back in the majors
    with them
    
    Mike
    

    Sorry I meant scoop not scope.
    

    What happened to Belle ? I missed it ...

    Doc, Belle was sent to the minors after dogging it while running out a
    grounder.
    
    Mark.

    
    	Belle,
    		There happened to be runners on first and third, one out.
    Either the run tieing or winning runner on third.  Would have been
    an easy double play, but the throw from 2nd, went wide, toward home
    plate.  Joey, oops, Albert, jogged toward 1st.  When the 1st baseman
    made the tag on him, Albert just jerked his head alittle.  He would
    have been safe if he had made an effort and even if he would have 
    really tried to get around the tag, he could have made it.  He was
    out however and the Indians lost another game.  
    		This isn't the first time this has happened and the Tribe
    won't stand for it.  Albert was told several times that he has to make
    an effort.  He didn't take the hint be being taken out of the line up
    a couple of times so, the front office sent him down.
    
    		The Chief

    Is it a mere coincidence that the Tribe couldn't score a run after
    Joey/Albert/whoever got sent down?
    
    The Tribe tied a club and AL mark last week by being shutout in 3
    consecutive games.  They spoiled their shot at setting a record by
    scoring in a game on Saturday.

    How is the Tribe doin'?

    54-100, by far the worst team in baseball. Only 33 or so games out. I'm
    surprised Hal isn't keeping this not alive. Throngs of 4,000-5,000
    aren't uncommon at the mistake by the Lake.
                                      Denny

    Actually with the doubleheader split lasted night, the tribe is now
    55-102.  The 102 losses ties them for the most losses by a Clevescum
    team.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Belle was in a cracker at the plate last week and busted his jaw.
    He received about 8 stiches and has been out sence.  The tribe is 
    building for the future.  Root for the Blue Jays...all ex-Indians.
    
    	I picked up a 90 Upper Deck card the other day for $2.00.
    The card is Joey Belle with the stats from his rookie year.  
    Unfourtunately its only worth $1.30 now.  I'll keep it though.
    Look for Belle to do lots better next year when the fence is moved
    in.  
    
    	Look for the tribe to be a penant team the first year they move
    into the new ball park.
    
    		Wahooo!

>    The tribe is 
>    building for the future.  


Haven't they been doing that for almost 40 years now?

    
>    	I picked up a 90 Upper Deck card the other day for $2.00.
>    The card is Joey Belle with the stats from his rookie year.  
>    Unfourtunately its only worth $1.30 now.  I'll keep it though.

Hal, I got a little land I want you to buy.

    
'Saw

    	Saw, the Indians look at the future as a long term thing.

>    	Saw, the Indians look at the future as a long term thing.


Kinda like Hitler did?  You know, the Reich would last for 1000 years?

If that's the case, then the Tribe can say, well, we're building for
the next eon.....

8^)

    
    Well my money says that they'll see a world series ring before the 
    Red Sox will...   
    
    /Jeff  

Longest Teams without a Championship:


	Chicago Cubs     	(baseball)
	Chicago White Sox       (baseball)
	Boston Red Sox	        (baseball)
	New York Rangers        (hockey)

	Detroit Red Wings	(hockey)*


*This list is from memory, from an SI article.  I know the top four
are correct, and I know the Wings are right there afterwards, but
I'm not sure if they are fifth.

The Rangers last won 50 years ago, so Cleveland must be shorter than
that.  1954 Rings a bell....


'Saw

    World Series droughts:
    
    Chicago Cubs       		1908
    Chicago White Sox  		1917
    Boston Red Sox		1918
    Cleveland Indians		1948
    NY/SF Giants		1954
    Bos/Mil/Atl Braves		1957
    New York Yankees		1977
    Pittsburgh Pirates		1979
    Philadelphia Phillies	1980
    St Louis Cardinals		1982
    St L Browns/Balt Orioles	1983
    Detroit Tigers		1984
    Kansas City Royals		1985
    New York Mets		1986
    Wash Senators/Minn Twins	1987
    Brooklyn/LA Dodgers		1988
    Phi/KC/Oakland Athletics	1989
    Cincinnati Reds		1990
    
    Never:  Seattle Pilots/Milwaukee Brewers, Toronto Blue Jays, California
    Angels, Seattle Mariners, Washington Senators/Texas Rangers, Montreal
    Expos, San Diego Padres, Houston Astros, Colorado Rockies, Florida
    Marlins.
    
    John

>    New York Yankees		1977

C'mon John, don't short-change my team a year:

	New York Yankees	1978

    I almost said New York Mets	1969, because 1978 and 1986 are painful
    years for Sox fans.
    
    Sorry, Joe.  No harm meant.
    
    John

    I think the last Red Wings team to win the Stanley Cup was in 1955.
    Gordie Howe, who retired only about 8 years ago was playing in his 8th
    season.
    

    Championship droughts:
    
    Chicago Cubs       		1908
    Chicago White Sox  		1917
    Boston Red Sox		1918
    New York Rangers		1940
    Chi/St Louis/Phoenix Cards	1947
    Cleveland Indians		1948
    Cleveland/LA Rams		1951
    Roch/Cin/KC/Sacto Kings	1951
    NY/SF Giants		1954
    Detroit Red Wings		1955
    Detroit Lions		1957
    Bos/Mil/Atl Braves		1957
    Tri Cit/St L/Atlanta Hawks	1958
    Philadelphia Eagles		1960
    Houston Oilers		1961
    Chicago Blackhawks		1961
    LA/San Diego Chargers	1963
    Cleveland Browns		1964
    Buffalo Bills		1965
    Green Bay Packers		1967
    Toronto Maple Leafs		1967
    New York Jets		1968
    Dal Texans/KC Chiefs	1969
    Balt/Ind Colts		1970
    Milwaukee Bucks		1971
    Boston Bruins		1971
    Miami Dolphins		1973
    NE/Hartford Whalers		1973
    New York Knicks		1973
    Indiana Pacers		1973
    Phil/Golden State Warriors	1975
    Philadelphia Flyers		1975
    New York/New Jersey Nets	1976
    Quebec Nordiques		1977
    Portland Trailblazers	1977
    Dallas Cowboys		1977
    Balt/Cap/Washington Bullets	1978
    New York Yankees		1978
    Winnipeg Jets		1979
    Seattle Supersonics		1979
    Pittsburgh Steelers		1979
    Pittsburgh Pirates		1979
    Philadelphia Phillies	1980
    St Louis Cardinals		1982
    St L Browns/Balt Orioles	1983
    Oakland/LA Raiders		1983
    Syracuse Nats/Phil 76ers	1983
    New York Islanders		1983
    Detroit Tigers		1984
    Kansas City Royals		1985
    Chicago Bears		1985
    Boston Celtics		1986
    Montreal Canadiens		1986
    New York Mets		1986
    Wash Senators/Minn Twins	1987
    Washington Redskins		1987
    Brooklyn/LA Dodgers		1988
    Minn/LA Lakers		1988
    Phi/KC/Oakland Athletics	1989
    Calgary Flames		1989
    San Francisco 49ers		1989
    Cincinnati Reds		1990
    Edmonton Oilers		1990
    New York Giants		1990
    Detroit Pistons		1990
    Chicago Bulls		1991
    Pittsburgh Penguins		1991
    
    Never:  Seattle Pilots/Milwaukee Brewers, Toronto Blue Jays, California
    Angels, Seattle Mariners, Washington Senators/Texas Rangers, Montreal
    Expos, San Diego Padres, Houston Astros, Colorado Rockies, Florida
    Marlins.

    New England Patriots, Cincinnati Bengals, Seattle Seahawks, Denver Broncos,
    Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Minnesota Vikings, Atlanta Falcons, New Orleans Saints

    Buffalo Sabres, New Jersey Devils, Washington Capitals, St Louis Blues, Min-
    nesota North Stars, Los Angeles Kings, Vancouver Canucks, San Jose Sharks

    Miami Heat, Charlotte Hornets, Orlando Magic, Cleveland Cavaliers, Phoenix
    Suns, Denver Nuggets, New Orleans/Utah Jazz, San Antonio Spurs, Houston
    Rockets, Dallas Mavericks, Minnesota Timberwolves

    John
    

       Uh, didn't the Broons win the Cup in '72 not '71?
                                        Denny

    Hey Ninj
    
    You have in your list:
    
    Washington Senators/Minnesota Twins     &
    
    Washington Senators/Texas Rangers
    
    Is there some kind of identity crisis here???
    
    JaKe
    
    

>    Washington Senators/Minnesota Twins     &
>    
>    Washington Senators/Texas Rangers
>    
>    Is there some kind of identity crisis here???
    
No.

The "original" Washington Senators went to Minnesota, and
another franchise was started to fill the void.  The "second"
Washington Sentaors then moved to Texas.

I miss the Senators actually, with big ol' Frank Howard....


'Saw    
    

    Great job, John.
    Unfortunately one minor nit
    As Chuck Chan would say "Correction preeze" 8^)
    Boston Bruins last Champeenship = 1972, not '71 (Habs won that year)
    Sorry
    
    MikeL
                               

    Oh, well.  Wrote it right, typed it wrong.  Sigh.
    
    John

    Washington!
    First in War!
    First in Peace!
    And LAST in the American League!!
                              Denny

    	This is the most action the Indians note has had all year!

Left off the complete list:

	No Carolina Tar Heels Hoops	1982

TTom

       Tribe is up to 102 losses...
                                        Denny

    SI has an article this week about how terrible the Indians are and how
    they only have about four or five loyal fans.  
    
    	--dan'l
    

>    SI has an article this week about how terrible the Indians are and how
>    they only have about four or five loyal fans.  
    
 
Lemme see:

		1. Hal
		2. Hal's Kid
		3. Groaner
		4. The tom-tom guy at the stadium
		5. The announcer...

Yup, sounds about right to me    

       The announcer's probly from Cincinnati!
                              Denny

    
    
    >>		3. Groaner
    
    Speaking of the Groaner, where has HE been so far this year??
    I haven't seen his yearly puking of "Has <insert team name here> ever
    won a <insert sport her> title????"
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

Saw,

You forgot the Deliverence Dude.  He was wacked out enough to be 
a Cleveland fan.

'Eeee, Eeee, Eeee, Go Tribe, Eeee, Eeee, Eeee'

Mike

>You forgot the Deliverence Dude.  He was wacked out enough to be 
>a Cleveland fan.

Nope, i got him.  Cross-reference "Hal's Kid"....

hhahahahahahahaha.

[JUST KIDDING]

8^)

    
    	Hey, you forgot my step-kid, he has been converted too.
    
    		Well, maybe forced.......  :-)
    
    			His read dad hates it when I send him
    		packing in his Cleveland attire.
    
    			HeH, HeH, HeH.....
    
    		Wahooooooooo!
    

�    Well my money says that they'll see a world series ring before the 
�    Red Sox will...   
    
�    /Jeff  

	You know /Jeff I might take you up on this bet but neither of us 
will probably be around to collect it.  It should be agreed that we 
both put it in our respective wills that our survivors (and their survivors)
carry it out until there is a winner.

				/Don

    I look at the Tribe as a sort of quad-A farm club for the rest of
    the teams that want to go on to the series.  This season's 
    notables- Otis Nixon, Tom Candiotti, Cory Snyder (still with Toronto?)
    and Joe Carter. There are probably more with the other contenders.
    
    BoB 

 	Bret Butler of the Dodgers
	Neal Heaton of the Pirates    

    How about closer for the A's.. Eck... 
    
    REK

    
    
    One more on Toronto..   Pat Tabler.. Might be more.  Really, though,
    with the movement of players in MLB I think the same can be said for
    any team.  How many ex-Red sox players faced Boston in the playoffs 
    last year .. Eck, Hendu..  any more?   The real question is how many 
    of those former tribe players are superstar quality... with the 
    exception of Carter, none listed are noteable.  
    
    /Jeff 

    Bob, I argree with you 100%. I've been a Indians fan for over 30 years
    believe it or not, and I see the same thing year after year. This team
    is like a farm team for any/every other team in the league. I've never
    seen such a second rate outfit in all my life...and I mean that
    sincerely. Nobody wants to play for Cleveland and when they do trade 
    their better ballplayers, they have nothing good to say about the
    organization when the leave(i.e.Candiotti, Tabler). I go back as far
    as the Woody Held, Leon Wagner, Jonny Romano, Rocky Colavito etc. days
    and I continue to follow them today. But I am so disgusted with the
    the front office I wish the league would do them a favor and move the
    team.

    
    re -1..  hold your tongue.  No matter how bad it gets (and 105 losses
    is BAD) a city without the 3 major sports is 2nd rate.   When you
    consider all the revenue professional sports bring into a city and how 
    sports effect outsiders perception of a city (exclude Jake in this 
    discussion, cause we know he hates C-town because his poor steelers
    have been recently DONIMATED by the Browns) you realize that the Tribe 
    must be kept in Cleveland at all cost.  Nuke the front office, but keep
    the team in town..  and that's the message the voters sent to 
    the Tribe owners on the sin-tax issue although only by the slimest margin.  
    
    /Jeff

       Cleveland will never be a 'world class city' til they git a hockey
    team.
                                          Denny

>       Cleveland will never be a 'world class city' til they git a hockey
>    team.
    
    Didn't they used to have the Cleveland Barons?
    
    Geez, all this bad talk about the Indians doesn't give me a whole lot
    of respect for our local AAA team, who just happens to be the Indians'
    farm club.  Actually, I could care less about 'em anyway.
    
    
    Joe
    
     

    Clevescum could never have a hockey team.  All water in that city
    BURNS, heck, they even have had rivers catch fire.
    
    I cain see it now, the Penguins would be up 14-0 and dog bones would be
    flying onto the brown ice.
    
    
    (8^)*  (8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Jake,  I forget.. what's the name of that Pitts. basketball team
    again??????   
    
    /Jeff

    re.63
    U of Pitt,  Duquesne U. and Robert Morris
    
    backsketball is for wusses that wears dockers.
    
    
    JaKe
    

       Pitt. used to have the Pipers.
                                  Denny

    Used to have the "Condors" too.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    	Didn't they make a movie about them JaKe?  I thought it had
    something to do with them being the shortest lived basketball franchise
    in the history of sports.  The movie was "Three Days of the Condors"
    I think.
    
    				/Don

    	
       No /Don.  Had to be 'The Fish That Saved Pittsburgh."
    
    						 glen j.

    With the record that the Tribe had this year, I would think there might
    be a bit more to converse about.

    
    No way to go but up -- That's for sure.
    
    /Jeff

    > With the record that the Tribe had this year, I would think there might
    > be a bit more to converse about.
    
    Not really a lot to say.  When it became evident early on that this
    wasn't the Tribe's year, 1991 became a regrouping season (Candiotti and
    Jacoby dealt for prospects, Baerga given a look at 2B, ditto Whiten
    after his trade from the Jays and Thome late in the year).  Cleveland
    took their lumps, but a lot of youngsters gained valuable major league
    experience.  There's defiitely something to build on here, although
    things aren't going to turn around overnight...the Indians need to
    keep doing what they're doing, and be patient.
    
    
    py

    Forgot to put this in my earlier note -- "Major League" is on tonight
    (9 PM Eastern time, CBS).  They'll probably have to cut it to shreds
    though to show it on network TV...
    
    
    py

�    Not really a lot to say.  When it became evident early on that this
�    wasn't the Tribe's year, 1991 became a regrouping season 
    
    Seems like they've been making this decision alot over the past several
    years.  Just look at the number of ex-Indians around MLB.

    I was home last xmas and heard that the possibility stood that the
    stadium wasn't going to be used anymore and that new twin-stadiums were
    going to be built on the site of the Central Market. Is this true? I
    believe it would be a waste of a beautiful piece of architecture. I
    also read somewhere that the owners stated that management wouldn't be
    spending any money on the team until they moved into a new stadium.

    Management hasn't made a move since 1954!
    

    No comments about the Tribe dealing Swindell to the Reds?  Looks like
    another typical Tribe deal to me:  quality for quantity.

 There is some discussion on the Swindell deal going on over in the
 BASEBALL conference, Mac.
 
 Personally, I think the Reds stole a gem from the Tribe.  Wouldn't shock
 me one bit if Swindell has a Cy Young year nexted season.    A power
 pitcher with a great collegiate pedigree (Texas) who knows how to pitch,
 not just throw.  And then turn him loose in the other league facing all
 those NL hitters for the first time.   Ouch ...
 
 Hell, I'll bet he starts the All-Star Game ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    What's to comment... my favorite team traded my favorite pitcher.
    I HATE THE INDIANS MANAGEMENT!  They have a great nucleus of young
    talent - unfortunately they've made it obvious they'll trade it all
    away before they can contend... Oh, he wants $800K next year, better
    deal him for 18 A ball players who are 30+ years of age!  ARGH!
    

    Sunday, I noticed that the KC Chief fans were doing that same chant
    that the Braves had during the WS, which I guess was taken from FS.
    
    So, are we going to be hearing this next year from the Cleveland fans?
    
    Somehow, I can't image it sounding the same when, even if BOTH fans are
    doing it in sync!  :*)
    
    lEe

    
    Swindell's lifetime stats are not that impressive..  ERA around 3.7 or 
    so..   Regardless of the hype surrounding his abilities, he never 
    showed much dominance as a pitcher with the Tribe and up till last 
    season, had never been healthy for an entire year.  
    
    Maybe with the pressure of being the staff ace (ha) off his shoulders 
    he'll start performing up to expectations.  Word is he'll be the #3 
    man in Cincinatti.  
    
    Don't know anything about the guys the tribe picked  up, since I don't
    really follow the NL.. but seeing as they got 3 for 1  they can't be
    that great.  
    
    /Jeff
    

    What is the big deal here.. Swindell would have been a free agent after
    1992 and most likely would have signed with a different team. At least
    the Indians got something in return for him instead of losing him to
    free agency....

    REK

	Your right that they probably would have lost him to FA anyway but 
I find it hard to belive that that is all they could get for him.  Yes, he's
been injured, and his ERA isn't great, but then again the D's behind him
hasn't been steller either.  They traded the ace of their staff and what did 
get?  Two mediocre (at best, hell Armstrong was horrible last year)  pitchers 
and a throw in!  

	They should revoke Clevelands franchise  unless they get some new 
management.

mc

    	
    I thought GM Hank Peters was considered a good baseball man! Didn't
    he run the Baltimore O's in their hay day? Why does this continue
    to happen year after freckin year...

    re: -< Good seats still available for 92 >-
    
    About 80,000 or so!
    
    Another beauty trade from the Tribe! They figure they only need one
    legit. starter, and Jones won a couple startin'...so...trade the only
    pitcher left.
    
    The one thing I love about the Injuns is that they never break my heart
    as the Brownies do....they always stink!

    
    	Well, 
    			The Indians are off on the wrong foot again this
    	year...lets hope that with all this young talent they can build
    	toward a brighter future.
    
    		Note:  Albert Belle hit his first homer yesterday
    
    			Total - "1"
    
    	The Chief!
    
    
    			WAHOO

    Hey Chief,
    
    Have you seen the plans for the new stadium in Cleveland? I hear the
    architects are the same ones who did Oriole Park. Will it be a real
    baseball park or a saucer arena?
    
    Rich
    

    
    Two levels...  First floor for football, second floor for baseball.

    Why not build a park that will accentuate the expected gate!
    How 'bout an ampitheatre for 200!  8^)
    
    
    Bang dat drum slowly!
    MikeL
    
    

    RE: 2 floors
    
    there's also a basement to make all the teams feel at home.
    
    hope this helps,
    Mike

      How in hail do they have 2 floors?
                                  Denny

    
>>    			The Indians are off on the wrong foot again this
>>    	year..
    
    Hal,
    
    The Indians have been playing on the wrong foot  for the lasted 30
    years.
    
    BTW, how many assistant coaches do the Indians have????  Maybe they
    need a few more to make them a lock to win their division!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    I saw a picture of a model of the Indians new park and it looks a bit
    like the Orioles new park. Known as Gateway Park, it's supposed to be
    open in 1994. The main difference is that it is the reverse of OPCY, 
    with a triple deck going from right-center all the way around to the 
    LF foul pole. It looks like a single deck bleacher section (or no seats 
    at all) over the LF wall, and a giant scoreboard in left. It's done in
    the new-old style and it's outfiled is asymetrical with angles and 
    corners instead of a round Comiskey-like OF.
    
    HTH
    
    Tom 

    The new park in Denver is also being designed by the same firm that did
    Camden, as was mentioned in the SI article.  Final plans still aren't
    out, but it will be an old style park much like Camden Yards.
    
    It's great to see the parks being built these days are not only out of
    the past but also baseball-only.  Baseball-only parks have so much more
    character.
    
    Are the Braves gonna play in that new dome, or is that just for the
    Falcons and the Olympics?
    
    
    Joe

    Actually I heard it will have a basement for the Browns and a
    sub-basement for the Indians ...

    Braves are supposed to move to the Georgia Dome next season.
    
    	--dan'l

    .95�    Braves are supposed to move to the Georgia Dome next season.
    
    	And the >Falcons< this year...
    
    B.A.

 You sure, Dan'l ???   I thought the Braves were staying put in Atlanta
 Fulton County Stadium until after the 1996 Summer Olympics and then they'd
 move into the as-yet-unbuilt main facility from that event.
 
 The Georgia Dome is just for the Falcons, I believe.  And monster truck
 shows and so on.  I don't think the Braves intend to use it.  The Peach
 Bowl probably will too.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Yeah, I had heard the Braves were going to play in the Olympic Stadium
    starting in 1997. It will probably look like a cross between the LA
    Coleseum and the Montreal Olympic Stadium. I guess somebody has to resist 
    this trend of new-old Camden-like baseball only parks. The Rangers new 
    park (1994) is also supposed to be pretty nice, too.  

    
    Seems like the Cavs aren't the only team in town with a few empty seats
    in the stands.  Last attendance was just a tad over 5,000.  Sheesh, the
    Red Sox draw better than that at Winter Haven.
    
    BTW, why in the world do they call the place where people sit "stands"?
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    Attendance at Indians games has been a problem.  
    
    This can be attributed to two factors in my opinion.
    
    1) Stadium size.  When a stadium holds 78,000 people, there is NO
       need to buy season tickets.  People can wait until the last 
       minute to go to the game.  This will change when the Indians 
       build their new ~40,000 seat stadium.  I would suspect they
       will take a huge jump in attendance.  Personally, as long as 
       the team stays in Cleveland, I like the low attendance figures.
       It means that any time I go home I can get seats without any
       problem.
    
    2) Team ability.  Right now, the Indians don't have a good team,
       or an average team... they have a poor team.  They seem to have
       all the pieces needed for a good team, but it will take time
       to develop the talent.  It also means they can't panic and
       start another rebuilding program before this one is given 
       sufficient time.
    
    My guess is that they'll have a competitive team by 1994 just as they
    move into their new stadium.  That should put people in the stands.
    
    p.s. the other reason there were so few people in the stands for last
    night's game is because the temperature dropped to 30.  Again, if they
    had all those season ticket holders, the attendance would have been
    higher.

    Faciltiy size and team ability don't hold much meaning to the people of
    the Queen City (see Hornets, Charlotte - NBA attendance champs, largest
    arena in league).  
    
    How about fan apathy and high cost of a night at the ballpark?  I'll be
    the first to admit that that's what is wrong in Pittsburgh.
    
    Also, are the Indian homegames shown on cable in Cleveland?  But even
    then, that's not an excuse (see Braves, Atlanta and Cubs, Chicago).
    
    
    	--dan'l

    Indians rebuilding again...
    
    YAWN!
    
    They've been rebuilding since the Eisenhower administration. They were
    supposedly a year or 2 away from "respectablity" when Alex Johnson and
    Gaylord Perry were their only decent players. Charlie Spikes was the
    star that was supposed to put them over the top. Later, it was the Joe
    Carter era. Carter has moved on to bigger and better things, but the
    Indians haven't...
    
    I'll believe it when I see it.
    
    Tom 

    In terms of position players, the Tribe has most if not all of the long 
    term pieces in place.
    
    However pitching (particularly starting pitching) seems thin beyond
    Charles Nagy.
    
    Any word on Jim Thome's status?  
    
    
    py

    The Indians are in a Catch-22 situation in regards to attendance.  The
    fans say, show us a good team and we'll come.  The team says, show that
    we have fan support and we'll play better (the old crowd is the 10th
    player factor).

    
    re: .102
    
    The Indians have been rebuilding forever.  This time they seem to
    have the correct pieces and are moving in the right direction -
    young high potential players at many positions, young stars signed
    to long term deals at other positions, a new stadium on the way.
    
    The one weakness may be pitching as mentioned in the previous note.
    
    I believe they are moving in the right direction this time and will
    stick with the game plan.
    
    Carter for Alomar + Baerga was a good trade for Cleveland.  They got
    two excellent players for one superstar.  Both Baerga and Alomar have
    superstar potential.  Couple that with the fact that there are not
    many good catchers in the majors and I think they came out ahead.
    
    Talk all you want about the Indians rebuilding.  Until the Sox win
    the World Series, there's not much of a difference... 1918 and
    counting.
    
    

�    Talk all you want about the Indians rebuilding.  Until the Sox win
�    the World Series, there's not much of a difference... 1918 and
�    counting.
    
    Attendance and TV & radio ratings show a huge difference.

      Maybe the Indians should grab some players from the Sky Sox,  their
    farm club.  The Sky Sox are playing great right now.
    
      Just a thought,
    
    	Tim

    re 1918 Groaner,
    
    I beg to differ. I'm not going down the endless rathole to argue if it's 
    better to be consistenly good over a long period vs to really reek the 
    joint out for a while but eventually win the brass ring.
    
    The Indians have been an AWFUL team for about 25 years. They finished
    3rd in a 10-team AL in 1968, but that was the last decent finish they
    have had. Have they ever finished higher than 5th since divisional play
    began? They are forever rebuilding. In 1987, Sports Illustrated picked
    them to win the AL East, since each other team had won it in previous
    years. Where did the Tripe finish then, 5th? When was the last over
    .500 season?
    
    The Red Sox, by contrast, have always put a reasonably competitive team
    on the field. Except for the Houk years in the eraly '80s, the Sox were
    usually considered to have a decent shot at winning the division. Sure,
    they haven't won the big one, but they came close a few times. Exciting
    play generates fan interest, and puts people in the seats. That is
    what the Indians don't have.
    
    I've heard a lot about the Indians being up and coming in a couple of
    years. People said the same thing about the Seattle Mariners, but, so
    far, they seem to be heading in the opposite direction. Please forgive
    me for not jumping on the Indians bandwagon, but I'll believe it when I
    see it.
    
    Tom     

    It all depends on how you measure success.  True, the Tribe has won at
    least 2 WS titles since the Sox last did in 1918.  The Tribe has been
    to 3 World Series in that time while the Sox have been to 4.  Not much
    difference there.
    
    The real big difference is that the Tribe hasn't been in contention
    since 1967, and the Red Sox have been consistently good since then. 
    There are advantages to being a Cleveland fan - the ability to go to
    any game, any time.  There are advantages to being a Sox fan - enjoying
    a team in contention, usually but not always year-after-year.  So,
    what's your choice - a lack of championships from a contender or a lack
    of championships from a non-contender?
    
    I don't care much either way but as a Sox fan, I'm with JD - I'd have
    traded some of those contending years for a World Series title.
    
    John

    Tribe has potential, but they aren't producing on the field.  Period.
    How long do they wait for guys like Belle, Alomar, Hill and Cole
    who were supposed to blossom into superstars to do that?
    
    Walt (who roots for the last AL east team to win it all...)
    

    
    But Walt their in the midst of their longest winning streak of the 
    year..   
    
    
    
    2 Games!!!!!!   
    
    /Jeff

    
    I will try to be objective... I'd like to hear what other people think.
    
    C - Alomar - already a proven all-star.  Excellent defensive skills
    	and has a decent stick.  Has been injury prone the past two years
    	which is a major concern.  Backup - Skinner.  In my opinion, one
    	of the better defensive catchers in the league.  He was highly 
    	sought after the past 2 off-seasons.
    
    1B- Jefferson, Sorrento, Jacoby.  Go with youth.  Sorrento is not the
        answer and neither is Jacoby.  I don't think Jefferson is ready
        and I'm not sure he ever will be.
    
    2B- Baerga.  Excellent stick, adequate on defense.  The answer at 2b
        for Cleveland.
    
    ss- Lewis, Fermin.  Lewis is starting to hit, is very young and will
        get it together defensively.  If he can be an average defensive
    	player, his hitting will make him an elite SS.  Lewis is the
    	answer.
    
    3b- thome, jacoby, worthington.  Thome may be the answer but is still
        injured.  Has hit well for average in the minors.  Is he the
        answer?  He may be.  Too soon to tell.
    
    OF- Hill, Lofton, Belle, Cole, Whiten, Howard.  Belle is a big league
        hitter, ink him in at DH for a long time.  Proven hitter in my
        mind.  Lofton needs to hit for a higher average, but has the 
        potential to be one of the best defensive OFs in the league, can
        steal bases...  Ink him in at CF.  Whiten, ink him in in RF. 
    	Cannon for an arm.  Good stick and speed.  That leaves Hill,
        Howard, and Cole for LF.  I would move Hill to 1b if possible
        and look at Cole/Howard in LF.
    
    C - set with Alomar
    1b- ???
    2b- set with Baerga
    ss- set with Lewis
    3b- ???
    LF- set with Hill if not at 1b (otherwise cole or Howard)
    CF- set with Lofton
    RF- set with Whiten
    DH- set with Belle
    
    Pitching next time.

    Paul, I don't think anyone is arguing that the Indians don't have
    talent.  It's what they do with that talent.  The past 20+ years have
    been impatient ones it seems.  Last year we came up with a list of all
    the highly respectable players that were once Indians and are now on
    other teams.  Indians would have had a contender if they would have
    stuck with the players that are still active.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    Dan'l, I agree, the Indians have been in a rebuilding program forever.
    The question is, are things different now.  I think they are.  I think
    they will stick with what they have until after they move into the 
    new stadium, then they will reevaluate if things are not happening.
    
    Yes, the Indians have traded their fair share of good players, but
    you can't just take all the players in the majors that have played on
    the Indians and lump them onto the team.  Carter and Hall came for
    Sutcliffe.  Hall was traded for a catcher.  Carter for Alomar,
    Baerga.  I think all 3 of those were good trades.  Butler and Jacoby
    for Barker.  Another good one.  They've made some bad ones too -
    Franco for nada.

Tribe? Good band..OOps sorry. We're talking about the Cleveland Tribe....

Even if all the regular players come together it won't be enough. Pitching is
what winns Pennants and championships. Atlanta turned the team around on the
basis of young arms. Cleveland needs to do the same. The Tribe has traded away
some good pitching over the years and it's going to kill them.

BTW - Major league is going to be on one of the big networks this Saturday....


Metz

If Nagy continues to pitch well (and I hope he does, he's from UCONN, and
he has a following here in the Nutmeg State), then this is what I see
for Cleveland:

	They have a good nucleus developing of young, solid ballplayers,
	in the right positions.

	If they can get a couple more quality pitchers, WITHOUT getting
	impatient and trading away huge chunks of that nucleus, then
	I think in a year or two the Indians can contend for the
	AL East....

JMHO,
'Saw

    Maybe in a couple of years, but the bottom line is what are they doing
    now?  Not winning.  Houston has potential and prospects too but it
    takes a while to build a winner.  Atlanta hung with their pitchers long
    enough for them to blossom.  As long as there's room on their rosters
    for guys like Ted Power and Brad Arnsberg, you're not going to contend,
    even in the AL east.  (ex, see Tigers)
    

    
    Brad Arnsberg on the Indians 25 man roster?  NOT!
    
    Ted Power would be the closer in Detroit, his numbers are far better
    than Henneman's... but he is only a filler player right now.  The
    Indians need pitching.  There is no doubt.  Nagy is the real deal.
    Armstrong, Scudder and Cook have potential as starters.  There are 
    1 or 2 starters in AA that have a chance.  Relief might need work.
    I don't see Olin as a closer for ever.
    
    One thing is certain... if Cleveland doesn't draft a pitcher from
    college like Burke with the 2nd pick in the draft, they are crazy.
    They have the position players and another in Manny Ramirez coming
    up the chain... they need pitching.  Finish with the worst record
    in the AL this year, get the #1 pick in the draft next year... draft
    another college starter or Brien Taylor type...
    
    Last to first... it can happen...  It has happened.  Not this year,
    not next year (probably), but in 1994, the tribe will have a 
    good team.

    
    Tell me it isn't so... did the Indians sweep the Rangers or did 
    they blow the 1 run lead in the 9th last night... last I saw
    they were up 8-7 in the 9th.

    
    Three in a row..    Trying to catch the socks!   
    
    /Jeff

    
    
    NO!  Stay low... end with the worst record in the AL and get the
    #1 pick in the draft.  They need the two high potential starters
    to go with the young high potential offense.

>    NO!  Stay low... end with the worst record in the AL and get the
>    #1 pick in the draft.  They need the two high potential starters
>    to go with the young high potential offense.
    
    Typical Ohio fan.  Win a few in a row and begin thinking of
    a great season.  Reminds me of Spring term 1982 at Ohio U when the
    Indians won a whole bunch in mid-May.  Indians fans hung bed sheets out
    the dorm windows claiming the AL East championship.
    
    	--dan'l
    

    re .118:
    
    I'll agree that Nagy is for real, and Scudder and Cook may work out,
    but I'm not so sure about Jack Armstrong.  Armstrong has done squat 
    since the first half of 1990, one now has to wonder if his fast start
    that year was an aberration.
    
    Don't know much about the Tribe's farm system, so I can't comment
    on what pitching may be there.
    
    
    py

    
    re: .122
    
    Do you have a secret decoder ring?  Your reply to my message makes
    no sense to me.
    
    The Indians won 3 in a row.  I am not thinking they will have a 
    great season.  I expect they will finish below .500 and very possibly
    finish in last place with the worst record in the AL.  I would
    actually prefer that.  Getting the first pick in the 1993 June draft
    is more important than winning a couple of extra games this year.
    They should go exclusively with the youth.

    
    I don't know why you guys are bitchin' about the capacity of Municipal
    SStadium.  Everyone knows that it ain't the size of the arena that
    matters, but how you use it that counts.
    
    Brews

    
    -Dan'l .. Please be advised that my notes with regards to the Tribes 
    current win streak are totally tongue-in-cheek...  I harbor no hope 
    for the Tribe this year, however, I do follow them actively, win or 
    loose.   
    
    /Jeff

    Paul, I wouldn't put much hopes into a draft pick.  It is very rare for
    a draft pick to become an immediate impact player.  Just look at Ben
    McDonald for the Orioles.

    
    
    Mac, I'm not putting all my hopes on the draft... but getting the
    2nd pick this year and possibly the 1st pick next year can not
    hurt.  Usually the top 10 players are impact players - even if they
    are not immediate impact players.  The college players are usually
    ready long before the high school players.  If they draft two pitchers,
    I would hope one would pan out.  
    
    Big Ben is coming around... he just needed to relax and not feel
    like he had to carry the team... with Mussina and Sutcliffe around,
    Big Ben is doing just fine.

    >	Big Ben is coming around... he just needed to relax and not feel
    >	like he had to carry the team.
    
    bingo...that plus stay healthy.
      
    (maybe picking up a veteran starter, as the O's did with Sutcliffe,
    might help the development of the Tribe's young pitchers.)
                                    
    
    py

    
    >	Big Ben is coming around... he just needed to relax and not feel
    >	like he had to carry the team.
    
    Same was said about Swindell..  I really don't follow the NL, how's he 
    doing in Cincy now that all that pressure has been lifted?  
    
    /Jeff
    

    re .130:
    
    Through last Thursday (I don't know if he pitched this weekend),
    Swindell was 3-1 with a 3.27 ERA.  
    
    
    py

Sorry Paul if I got confused.  I was just going from a list I found off the
    network of this year's stats...
    
Kevin Wickander    CLE      0   0.00  0.750      1    0   0    1  0  0  1   0   1    2.7    1    0    0   0    1    4
Dennis Cook        CLE      1   4.15  1.192      0    1   2    5  5  0  0   0   0   26.0   27   12   12   5    4   10
Rod Nichols        CLE      0   5.56  1.544      0    0   2   12  0  0  4   0   0   22.7   28   17   14   4    7   14
Scott Scudder      CLE      2   5.70  1.633      0    2   3    6  5  0  0   0   0   30.0   37   26   19   5   12   20
Dave Otto          CLE      2   6.43  1.679      0    2   2    6  6  0  0   0   0   28.0   38   21   20   4    9   13
Eric Bell          CLE      0   7.63  2.022      0    0   2    7  1  0  2   0   0   15.3   22   13   13   1    9   10
Jeff Shaw          CLE      0   8.22  1.435      0    0   1    2  1  0  1   0   0    7.7    7    7    7   2    4    3
Brad Arnsberg      CLE      0  11.81  2.250      0    0   0    8  0  0  1   0   0   10.7   13   14   14   6   11    5

    
    
    Arnsberg is no longer with the team.  Power is injured.

    My mistake.  I guess there's still room for Power when he gets back.
    At least they've progressed to the point where Dennis Cook and Steve
    Olin are key guys...

    
    Cook has been in the rotation since the beginning of the year.
    Olin has been the closer since mid-91.
    
    Whoever said it is probably correct... Cleveland needs one 
    veteran starter like Sutcliffe to pull this staff together.
    
    I wonder how Jeff Mutis is doing in AAA.  He was climbing up
    the ladder with Charles Nagy, with similar results.  I figured
    he'd be up this year or next at the latest.

    My point is Olin doesn't strike the fear that a Eck, Harvey, Olson
    or a lot of others do.  And I wouldn't put Nagy and Cook in the
    Clemens/Viola, Morris/Guzman, Sutcliffe/Mussina category.  (Same
    with Gullickson/Tanana as far as that goes... which is why Detroit
    is in 6th...)
    

    
    I'm not sure about Cook because I haven't seen enough of him yet.
    However, Nagy has as much potential as Mussina and Guzman in my
    opinion.  All three are having solid years so far.

    Nagy hs talent ... Guzman looks like the class of the three so far
    though. If he can develop consistent control, he's next to unhittable.
    
    And Ben McDonald is making a lot of fair-weather 'experts' look like
    fools ... which is great. Wait until he gets his velocity back ...

    Mussina 4-0, 2.91 ERA 11BB, 16K
    Guzman  5-1  1.61 ERA 21BB, 52K
    Nagy    3-2  2.60 ERA 10BB, 41K

    
    You might as well throw McDonald, Appier and Erickson into the lot...
    might be good to start a discussion on the top young pitchers in the
    AL in another note.
    
    W-L is the category with the strongest ties to the team the pitcher
    pitches for, in my opinion.  Nagy is not going to run up big numbers
    because Cleveland just isn't winning games.  Nagy was fantastic last
    year in April-May and came out with very few wins... losing several
    1 run games.  I believe that Nagy and Swindell led the AL in so called
    tough losses.
    
    ERA is somewhat tied to the team.  It can be effected by team defense.
    I'm not talking about errors, I'm talking about range.  Toronto has
    Alomar at 2B, Lee at SS, White in CF... we are talking about some of
    the best fielders in the game.
    
    H+W/IP is a good category as is K/BB ratio.
    
    Another thing to look at is bullpen.  Toronto has the #1 pen in the
    league.
    
    I'm not saying that Guzman isn't the best of the lot, I'm just saying
    he has many intangibles on his side, and I'm sure Mussina and Nagy 
    would both like pitching on a team like the Jays.

    I have read where the plan in Cleveland is to develop the current crop
    on the roster and expect big things by the time the new stadium opens.
    Sound thinking by upper management. They have a clear target in mind,
    their baseball people think they have the right players now (excluding
    pitching) and they seem to be patient.
    
    However, the current level of fan support does nothing to enhance the
    image of Cleveland fans. Contrast the support the Indians get with the
    Orioles of the past 5-6 years. The Orioles can count on fan support as
    long as the team demonstrates that is trying. Even when they had that
    0-fer streak a couple back, they were pulling in over 20k a game. 
    
    The Tigers, also, may not pack the place but put up respective numbers.
    
    Could it be the location of the stadium on the Oil Can Ocean? I don't
    know...Comiskey Park or Yankee Stadium aren't located in what you would
    call garden spots, yet they draw pretty good.
    
    What is it with Cleveland fans?
    
    Rich
    

    The stadium is too big.  There's no incentive to buy season tickets
    since you walk up to the window for any game (except opening day) and
    get a great seat.  With a lousy team, there's no reason to go either.
    
    Cleveland will support a winning baseball team.
    
    John

              
    Detroit's attendance is nothing to write home about.  Even last year
    when they were battling for first place they still had problems
    breaking 15,000 on many dates and eventually finished 12th in the 
    league in attendance.
    
    For my money, the most embarrassing attendance situation in the
    American League rests with the New York Yankees.  A couple of times
    already this season their attendance has been around 15,000 (*paid*)
    on a Friday night.  You'd figure they'd have more than that in season
    tickets alone.  I know things haven't been great with the Yankees
    lately and there's that Steinbrenner element, but in a city of that
    size with a team with that kind of tradition and fan following you'd
    still think they'd do better.  Baseball is baseball.  It's easy to 
    support a pennant winner...
    
    glenn
    

    In Baltimore, the O's are the only game in town...all year.  Though
    similar economically and socially to Baltimore, towns like Cleveland
    and Pittsburgh are football towns.  Hard to explain why.  
    
    Browns and Steelers sell out every game, but the Indians and Pirates
    can't pay people to come.  Pittsburgh won't even support a winning
    baseball team...though that winning team is somewhat tainted by two
    consecutive October heartbreaks and an a$$hole in left field.
    
    	--dan'l
    

    I'd think because high school FB is big in that area.  Like hockey
    is here or hoops in Charlotte...
    

    re: -1
    
    Are you saying that Highschool football is taking fans away from
    professional baseball?
    
    Please note in regards to the Tribe the phrase professional baseball
    is used     l o o s e l y !

    Thought while shaving...has the Tribe considered putting Derek
    Lilliquist in the starting rotation?
    
    
    py

         <<< Note 57.147 by JARETH::YANKOWSKAS "FIRST PLACE ORIOLES" >>>

>    Thought while shaving...has the Tribe considered putting Derek
>    Lilliquist in the starting rotation?
    
    Paul, you *must* get a life.
    
    Mark.

    
    Mark, you *must* get a car... dump the Volvo!
    
    Paul (not the one mentioned in .148)
    

    
    
    			WAAAAAAHOOOOOOOOOO!

    
    Hal, depends on whether you're a pesimist or an optimist..   
    They're either tied for last, or tied for sixth!  
    
    Either/or they're on their way UP!!!!!!!!!     
    
    /Jeff

    Orioles' outfielder Mike Devereaux, after last weekend's O's-Tribe
    series:
    
    "Never mind this 'in a year or two' stuff.  They're here now."
      
    
    py

    
    Yeah, too bad they started the year 14-30 or they'd be in the hunt with
    Baltimore and Milwaukee.  
    
    Should be an interesting series with the Jays this weekend in C-Town.  
    
    /Jeff

    
    They are back in the cellar, and hopefully they will stay there.
    As much as I'd like them to finish above the Sox, I'd much rather
    have them finish in a position to get a better draft pick.  They
    are not going anywhere this year anyways.
    
    BTW, Paul Shuey is pitching great as a starter for the Indians
    minor league team.  He was a reliever in college (so was Nagy).
    He was their 1st round pick this year, 2nd in the draft.

    Now Ice,
    You ain't suggesting the Tribe tank games are ya?? 8^)
    
    Now the RedSox could never be accused of tanking games. They just
    (s)Tank.
    

    GO TRIBE!!! (for the next three days anyway...)
    
    
    py

�    They are back in the cellar, and hopefully they will stay there.
�    As much as I'd like them to finish above the Sox, I'd much rather
�    have them finish in a position to get a better draft pick.  
    
    The baseball draft is not like the football and basketball drafts.  It
    is very rare for a baseball draft pick, no matter how highly drafted,
    to make an immediate impact like draft picks in other sports can.
    
    I think Cleveland would be better off finishing as high in the
    standings as they can in order to promote fan interest.  From what I've
    heard, attendance is up this year as a direct result of a better
    product on the field.  They were projecting a crowd of >40K last night
    to watch what promised to be a great pitching matchup with Nagy and
    Clemens going head to head.

�    As much as I'd like them to finish above the Sox, I'd much rather
�    have them finish in a position to get a better draft pick.  
    
    Yeah, look where all those high draft picks over the last 20 seasons
    have gotten them.  Awsome team.  Awsome.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    I am not suggesting that the Indians lose on purpose.  I am merely
    saying, from my point of view, that they would be better off finishing
    lower in the standings and getting a higher draft pick.
    
    Mac, I agree.  Draft picks in baseball are not as "reliable" or 
    whatever word you want to use as in other sports.  However, I do
    believe that a team drafting with picks 1-4 in the first round will
    get a better player than a team drafting 10-15... MOST OF THE TIME.
    
    The Indians have drafted very well over the past couple of years.
    Lewis and Nagy were both snagged in 88 (or 89?).  Shuey looks decent,
    last years pick Ramierez is doing quite well.
    
    

    Paul,
    	I thought Nagy was primarily a starter at UCONN, although a
    lot of college pitchers do both.  
    
    Jimbo

    Come on now.  After all of these decades of loosing, loosing, loosing 
    you don't think it's too bad if they continue to loose more!? 
    This team needs to learn how it feels to win again. To hell 
    with draft picks! Besides, they've got good young blood. They
    really need to pick up some experienced 'role' type players
    to stabalize their heads and give added maturity.  
    Go Tribe! Finally baseball begins to be fun again. 
    
    BoB 
    
    

    
    Actually, I think you're right.  Nagy was a starter at UConn and
    was converted to a reliever for the 1988 Olympics.

>    Actually, I think you're right.  Nagy was a starter at UConn and
>    was converted to a reliever for the 1988 Olympics.


Go UCONN!!!!!!


'Saw

    
    	Boy, how about those Indians...they are ripping apart the American
    League.  After sweeping the Twins they took 2 of 3 from Texas.  I don't
    know but I think they have a chance.  If they can win 2/3 of the games
    they have left, I think they can take the division.  I even took out
    one of my Indians shirts today.  It's nice to see the Indians play some
    great ball.  I look forward for the years to come.  The Indians have
    what it takes to take the league in 1994.  Maybe even sooner.
    
    	WaaaHooooo!

    re .164:                               
    
    The Tribe still needs a bit more starting pitching depth, and a little
    better defense, before they can be true contenders...but yes, they've
    taken a giant step forward this year.  
    
    I know I don't look forward to the O's finishing the season with four
    games by the lake...
    
    
    py

    
    re: -2
    
    Hal, even if the Tribe wins 2/3 of their remaining games, going 26-12
    in the process, they're only going to finish 6 games over .500  
    
    Even though they've been inspirational in the 2nd half, the lousy start 
    they had has already cost them any chance of competing for the division
    crown this year.  
    
    Lets just hope they get off to a better start next year.
    
    /Jeff  
         

    
    I disagree with needing more pitching and more defense to become
    contenders.  They started the season at 14-31.  If you take that
    and change it to 23-22, they have the same record as Milwaukee.
    They need experience and they have gotten that this year.  The
    young players need to develop.  Sure they need pitching, what team
    doesn't.  They have a boatload of young arms in AA and should be
    ready to contend in 1993 or 1994 at the latest.  They have the
    best record in the AL East since the all-star game and they
    have a winning record combined v.s. (Baltimore, Toronto, Oakland
    and Minnesota).
    
    Sign one free agent pitcher - SWINDELL!

 Braves don't look like they need pitching. Maybe a middle releiver but
 when your starters go 8 inning or so every outing, the setup man becomes
 less important.......

 mike

    With those kid pitchers in AA, by 1994 the Indians' weakness might be 
    what everyone now considers to be their (relative) strength: their 
    everyday players.  With the exception of Baerga and Belle, I'm not as 
    sold on that lineup as many are.  I think some of the guys that were to
    be the foundation of the team, like Alomar and Whiten and Hill, aren't 
    developing as much as was expected to this point.  Cleveland's pitching
    has carried them in the second half; the offense has still been pretty
    weak...
    
    glenn
     

    
    glenn, if 2nd in AL in hitting is weak, I guess you're
    right.  The one knock on Cleveland hitting would have to be their lack of 
    run production, however.   
    
    I'd add Lewis and Lofton to your list of Baerga and Belle as impact 
    offensive players.  Sorrento (sp?) has had an excellent year at 1B, 
    and although Whiten hasn't been a consistent hitter, his arm more than 
    makes up for his lack of offense.   
    
    I feel they have the nucleus NOW, and ample talent in the farm system
    to continue to build in the next few years.  Unfortunetly they can only
    protect 15 players and are doomed to be negatively impacted by the
    expansion draft.   
    
    /Jeff

    
    
    Unfortunately for the Indians, the best thing to do when expansion is
    coming is to consolidate your talent.  The Indians have done just the
    opposite with their trades for Carter, Swindell and Candiotti.  Of
    course, all three would have walked as free agents, so they had little
    or no choice.
    
    Carter for Baerga and Alomar looks good.

    
    After paying $95 million to enter the league, neither of the
    expansion teams have excess cash for salaries at this point. 
    The Rockies for sure and I suspect the Marlins also are going
    to build their organizations from scratch. That means few if
    any high dollar free agents or high dollar signed vets will 
    be picked up. That brings us to the Indians. Good talent
    along with low wages and youth are just the invitation required
    to come raiding. If the AL wouldn't have raised such a stink
    over getting "their" share of the $190 million expansion fund,
    all these players would be untouchable right now. The Tribe 
    may be forced to take their share of the pot to fill holes 
    created by their "right" to a share of that pot. 
    
    BoB 
    

                          
    > If the AL wouldn't have raised such a stink
    > over getting "their" share of the $190 million expansion fund,
    > all these players would be untouchable right now. The Tribe 
    > may be forced to take their share of the pot to fill holes 
    > created by their "right" to a share of that pot. 
      
    Uh-uh.  From the very start it was decided by the commissioner that
    this expansion draft would be supported by a full MLB talent pool.  The
    AL then made a stink about not getting any of the money.  When the AL 
    shares were announced, the AL owners rightly concluded that the money
    didn't even cover their development costs.
    
    I still don't think the Indians have as much to worry about as they're
    saying, if they really know their own talent.  From the current list
    of eligibles (for any team), there won't be 15 bonafide quality everyday
    players and pitchers when it's looked at in retrospect 3-4 years down
    the road.  They just have to know who those players are, and at worst
    they'll lose *one* player of some value.
                   
    glenn
    

    Re .169
    
    > With the exception of Baerga and Belle, I'm not as 
    > sold on that lineup as many are.  I think some of the guys that were to
    > be the foundation of the team, like Alomar and Whiten and Hill, aren't 
    > developing as much as was expected to this point.
    
    I'll half-agree with you; on the other hand, I don't think the Indians'
    '94 offense is going to have weakened at all.
    
    Of the Tribe's 9 regulars, 5 will be in their prime (26-28 years old)
    in '94 - Belle, Alomar, Whiten, and Sorrento.  As a group they will
    probably be about the same as this year, maybe a bit better.
    
    3 will still be approaching their prime - Lewis, Thome, and Baerga.  As
    a group they should be MUCH better in '94 than they are now.
    
    1 (Hill) will be past his prime.  And, hopefully, long gone.
    
    There's no doubt that the current offense is not spectacular.  There's
    no reason, though, it should be worse in two years - rather, it should
    be significantly better.  None of the these players will have hit free
    agency by '94, and many are signed through that year.
    
    On top of that, the Indians have a few good hitting prospects who could
    come through by '94.  Jefferson still could make it; Manny Ramirez
    could be ready, Tracy Sanders could come through... if just one of them
    does, the Indians won't have a problem scoring runs.
    
    I'm actually less optimistic about the pitching.  Paul Byrd, Alan
    Embree, Dave Mlicki, Chad Ogea, Mike Soper, and Bill Wertz all look
    good; I'm not betting on all of them coming through, though.  Wouldn't
    Greg Maddux look good in an Indians uniform?  B^)
    
    Joe

    They had me all but writing them off this year (again) 
    untill that 3 game sweep in Oakland prior to the break.
    All in all they made it interesting.  Too bad they had
    to dig such a deep hole so early.  IF the Tribe continues 
    their recent pattern, it's one step forward and 2 backwards.
    Maybe the new folks can break that trend. 
    
    BoB

    
    Biggest problem facing the Tribe will be the expansion draft...  
    
    Stupid AL had to have a piece of the pie, and now it's gonna cost the 
    Tribe 3 quality prospects.   
    
    Anyone have a list of protected players?  Also, when is the draft.. 
    I assume shortly after the series completes.  
    
    /Jeff

>    Anyone have a list of protected players?  Also, when is the draft.. 
>    I assume shortly after the series completes.  
    
    Jeff,

	protected lists are due in to the league office in early November,
but they are supposed to remain a secret except to Miaimi and Colorado.
the draft is Nov. 16th, and I believe it's on ESPN...

	Jim M

    ESPN did say they would cover the expansion draft. Seems
    kind of awkward that Colorado will be drafting for real
    and yet still haven't named a head coach yet. 
    
    BoB

    Florida hasn't named a manager yet, have they?  
    
    Anyway, both teams will have a manager by then.
    
    
    Joe

    re: .178
    
    > and yet still haven't named a head coach yet.
    
    Hmm, never heard of a head coach in baseball - wrong sport :-)
    
    You did mean manager, right :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    The Chicago Cubs of either the late fifties or early sixties for a
    couple of years had no manager but what was called "A College of
    Coaches".
    
    John

    Yabbut did they get scholarships?  Were they paid over the table
    or under the table?
    
    Oh yeah, and how many rings did they get?
    
    I remain,
    curious about their SAT's too!
    Kev
    

    
    I thought the more coaches you had, the better chance you had for a
    championship.  That's the Cleveland way of thinking anyway.
    
    Dickstah
    

    	The St. Louis team tried that same thing and they called it the
    College of Cardinals.
    
    				/Don
                                                                   

       Hey John, you sure that wasn't a 'collage' a coaches?
                                      Denny

    Someone, in reference to the Cubs method of building a coaching staff,
    asked if the opposite of a Pride of Lions was a Humiliation of Coaches.
    
    John

Why does MrT's a "cloaca of heresies" come to mind?

    -1,
    'Cuz 'Saw wasn't he trying to cloak his herpes??
    
    Festering sore et all??
    
    MikeL
    

>    'Cuz 'Saw wasn't he trying to cloak his herpes??
>    
>    Festering sore et all??
>    
>    MikeL


Groan  ;^)