Conference 7.286::macintosh

    A friend with a Performa 575 called today...she says her machine
    has just seemed sluggish.

    She tried rebuilding the desktop some time back, and stopped it
    when it did not seem to be making progress.  I talked her through
    running disk first aid, and it did show a problem that we repaired,
    but when she tried rebuilding again it again seemed to hang.

    She left it running and it completed after about 25 minutes or so.

    I think she has a 160MB or so HardDrive.

    She checked the memory control panel and VM was not on.  Or Ram disk
    or any of those other things.

    I dont know how full her disk is.  or how fragmented it is.  She has
    not run Speedometer or any benchmarks to really measure its speed.

    what might make the machine slow down so much?  (if it has)
    bob

    Dunno what is slowing it down - except possibly the Global Village
    software - but it's really dogging it.  :-(  She might try turning off
    the Global Village stuff with Extensions Manager and restarting.

    Has she downloaded any shareware lately?  Maybe a Disinfectant run
    is in order...

    has she enabled Java on Netscape?  _AND_ was she running Netscape at
    the time?  Doesn't count if Netscape is not running :-)
    
    Somewhere I read that Netscape's Java implementation can eat up a lot
    of cycles because of the way they implemented threads.  It seems it
    does a lot of pooling for thread work to do and it just has a good
    time.
    
    Your milage may vary, and I only give this a 5% chance of even being
    responsible for your friends problem.
    
    					Bob Harris

    Some other questions I would ask:
    
    How many fonts does she have? How old is the system folder on that
    disk? How old is the disk driver? Last time she reset parameter RAM?
    Too many INITs/Extensions? Not enough RAM for creeping application and
    System needs? Operating at 24 bit color when 16 would do? Using a
    particularly massive/complex image for the screen background? Using NOW
    Utilities? Using Kaleidoscope to revamp the UI? Using  multiple desktop
    clocks? Using font rasterizing feature of ATM 4.0? 
    
       erik

    I'm a Wintel guy, but I'm being forced to learn about the Performa 575
    in our house because there doesn't seem to be a reliable service
    organization in my area (Northwestern Boston Suburbs).
    
    My Questions:
    
    How do you open a Performa 575 so you can get to the SCSI cable? I've
    had the motherboard out and the casing off, but I can't figure out how
    to get the metal and plastic cages out of the way so I can reach the
    drives themselves, reseat connectors, and/or swap components. Any tips?
    
    Is there a trick to the way the System 7.5 uses memory? Is there a
    specific extension I need to enable to allow it to use the hard disk
    for caching?
    
    The Background:
     
    The CD in the Performa 575 stopped working a while ago. I finally gave
    in to the family pressure and, after calling around to various places
    that claimed to repair Macintoshes, took it into CompUSA in Woburn.
    
    They ran diagnostics and told me everything was fine, but that the CD
    drive didn't work. (I think I knew that.) I quizzed them about why the
    machine didn't report a problem with the CD when it ran through boot
    diagnostics and got an answer that didn't make a lot of sense to me:
    "The SCSI socket works fine, and that's all the Mac checks on boot."
    SInce I could hear the CD drive whirring during diagnostics, this didn't
    make a lot of sense to me. When they told me it would take at least
    three weeks to get a replacement drive and possible longer to get more
    memory for the box, I retrieved it and said I would look elsewhere.
    
    So last night, I pored over the meager documentation for the Mac. Aha!
    I told it to boot off the CD rather than the hard drive, put the
    Performa System CD in the drive, and restarted. Ta dah! There it is.
    The CD drive now works. It's slower than molasses in January, but I
    knew that already.
    
    The problem is that any program that uses the CD is also that slow,
    even when it's not accessing the CD. It was never this way before.

Hi John...
I'm a little confused about what the problem is that you want
help with.  You said the CD didn't work, but then you booted from it
and it worked?  Or did you put in a replacement first?  (not sure if
I missed that part).



>    How do you open a Performa 575 so you can get to the SCSI cable? I've
>    had the motherboard out and the casing off, but I can't figure out how
>    to get the metal and plastic cages out of the way so I can reach the
>    drives themselves, reseat connectors, and/or swap components. Any tips?

I've never done more than remove the mother board of a 575 by removing
the back cover to upgrade memory.  The SCSI cable is available without
opening anything, so I assume you mean how do you get to the other end of
it?  (where it connects to the mother board?)  I've never owned one of those
integrated machines.  Getting into the pizza box Macs or towers is very
different.
    
>    Is there a trick to the way the System 7.5 uses memory? Is there a
>    specific extension I need to enable to allow it to use the hard disk
>    for caching?

Sounds like you are trying to force some sort of caching for the CD?
Applications that use the CD often require a lot of RAM and do
caching there.  I'm not sure you can force CD caching on the HardDrive.
Maybe someone else will know.

>    The Background:
>     
>    The CD in the Performa 575 stopped working a while ago. I finally gave
>    in to the family pressure and, after calling around to various places
>    that claimed to repair Macintoshes, took it into CompUSA in Woburn.
>    
>    They ran diagnostics and told me everything was fine, but that the CD
>    drive didn't work. (I think I knew that.) I quizzed them about why the
>    machine didn't report a problem with the CD when it ran through boot
>    diagnostics and got an answer that didn't make a lot of sense to me:
>    "The SCSI socket works fine, and that's all the Mac checks on boot."
>    SInce I could hear the CD drive whirring during diagnostics, this didn't
>    make a lot of sense to me. When they told me it would take at least
>    three weeks to get a replacement drive and possible longer to get more
>    memory for the box, I retrieved it and said I would look elsewhere.
>    
>    So last night, I pored over the meager documentation for the Mac. Aha!
>    I told it to boot off the CD rather than the hard drive, put the
>    Performa System CD in the drive, and restarted. Ta dah! There it is.
>    The CD drive now works. It's slower than molasses in January, but I
>    knew that already.
    
I forget the speed of the CD in the 575..but it was not fast....2X, 3X?
Do you think the machine is slower than it should be accessing the CD?
Normally you dont boot from the CD.....just for diagnostic work on the
machine, like if you want to defragment the HardDrive.  

>    The problem is that any program that uses the CD is also that slow,
>    even when it's not accessing the CD. It was never this way before.

One guess might be that you've got virtual memory enabled, so that you can
run CD rpograms that require a lot of memory (more than you actually have).
this is forcing the system to maintain a copy of your RAM in the hardDrive,
and its pretty slow.  check if VM is enabled in the memory control panel.

Sounds like you dont enjoy having to even touch this machine all that much
bob

    
    I heard the horror in the story too, but I also failed to understand
    what the problem was...I'm going under the assumption that when you
    insert a CD ROM the disk does not mount and appear on the desktop so
    you cannot access it...and when you boot from the CD it is accessable,
    but slow. If that's right, keep reading (if not maybe you could
    restaate the problem?)
    
    I think you've got a problem with the CD software. Inside your
    extentions folder there should be several icons for the CD software.
    They are; 
    Apple CD ROM <-- The driver
    Apple Photo Access <-- photo CD access
    Audio CD Access <-- play audio CDs
    Foreign File Access <-- access some other file systems (DOS maybe?)
    High Sierra Access <-- access some High Sierra format CDs
    ISO 9660 File Access <-- access ISO 9660 format CDs
    
    You might alos want to make sure that Quick Time is installed (and the
    Quick Time Power Plug if this is a PowerMac) in the Extensions folder.
    
    Finally, you want the Audio CD Remote player in the Apple menu if you
    want to play Audio CDs.
    
    If any of the files are missing try reinstalling from the original
    system software...we also have the CD ROM sofware online on HUMANE (See
    HUMANE::MACONLINE for pointers)
    
    Mario

    Hmmmm...The CD works when you boot off of it and doesn't when you boot
    off of the hard disk...Correct?
    
    If this is the case, did you reinstall the system software from the
    distribution CD about the time the CD stopped working?
    
    Apple had a problem where they changed CD drive vendor on some of the
    all-in-one units (from the CD300 to the CD600, I think). The new
    distribution CD that came with the machine "knew" about the drive as
    did the installed system on the hard drive. Unfortunately, the build
    kit on the CD distributed with the Mac was an older version that did
    not recognize the newer CD drive. Thus, when you did a clean install
    from your distribution CD, the old driver was installed and would not
    recognize the newer drive.
    
    The solution to this problem is to get the latest version of the CD
    installation kit and install the newest driver on the Mac. The CD
    driver is a cumulative collection of software to support all of the CD
    drives that Apple has shipped since the first CD SC.
    
    
    				Cheers,
    				-Abdul-
    

    Can't answer the "Get inside" question.  Sorry.
    
    As for service, I have used ComputerTown on several occasions.  They
    are a Mac dealer and have stores in Boston, Framingham, Nashua, etc... 
    If you should have a need in the future, look for them on the web at
    <http://www.computertown.com/>, there locations should be listed there.
    
    I also think that maybe you are saying that the CD-ROM is not
    accessable when you are booted from the hard disk, but it works OK if
    you boot from the CD-ROM.  Follow Mario's suggestions about checking to
    see if you have the CD-ROM INITs and if not to re-install, or even
    re-install just to be sure.  If you don't have your installation disks
    for some reason, you can find the standard Apple CD-ROM drivers at
    
    	HUMANE::MAC$ROOT:[APPLE.TOOLS]MACINTOSH_CD-ROM_SETUP_V5_3_2.STUFFIT
    
    If you still have problems, please post an update and we will try to
    help you some more.
    
    Your comment about getting the hard disk to do caching sounds like you
    would like to have a caching driver for your CD-ROM drive.  The
    standard Apple driver does not provide any special caching for the
    CD-ROM other then perhaps the regular disk cache (which is so-so).  But
    you can purchase 3rd party CD-ROM drivers, some of which do provde
    CD-ROM caching which can use the disk for some of the cached
    information.  The NEC CD-ROM I have provides a 3rd party driver and an
    extension called SpeedyCD which does CD-ROM caching to hard disk.  It
    this is a customized driver from a 3rd party CD-ROM vendor, so the
    features are available.
    
    Then again, the question remains as to what you want to do with the
    CD-ROM such that you "Feel the Need for Speed"?  Maybe there are other
    approaches or even just replacing the drive with a faster unit, rather
    then buying CD-ROM caching drivers.
    
    The other though about using the hard disk for caching is that maybe
    you are referring to virtual memory.  The Mac does support virtual
    memory.  You use the "Memory" control panel to enable it.  Another
    approach to virutal memory is a 3rd party product called "RAMdoubler"
    from "Connectix" which uses tricks such as stealing unused memory from
    other processes, in memory compression to idle memory, and as a last
    resort paging data to disk.  I've used RAMdoubler in the past (and I
    still use it on my Wife's PowerBook Duo to make 12MB look like 24MB).
    
    If our guess as to what you mean by "...the way the System 7.5 uses
    memory..." is wrong, please let us know.  There are utilities that can
    be used to display where memory is being consumed on your Mac if you
    need to trim it.  Then again adding more memory makes trimming it less
    of a worry (my current approach, because memory is so cheap these
    days).
    
    "...and possible longer to get more memory for the box...".  If this
    refers to your desire to increase the amount of memory in your Mac,
    that should only take a day or 2 via mailorder, and the prices are
    fairly good.  But then again CompUSA has a Digital Employee discount so
    that buying memory from CompUSA can be slightly cheaper (Mass taxes may
    negate that, so your milage may vary, or travel to Nashua CompUSA).  A
    good place to check memory prices is <http://www.macresource.pair.com/>
    and click on the "RAMwatch" link at the bottom of the page.
    
    If you decide to buy memory mailorder, tell the vendor what Mac you
    have and they should be able to lookup the correct type of memory.  If
    they hesitate, then try a different vendor.  I have used "The Chip
    Merchant" several times and been happy.
    
    Also there great utility for checking out what your memory upgrade
    options are 
    
    	HUMANE::MAC$ROOT:[RECENT_UPLOADS]GURU_V2_1.STUFFIT
    
    Highly recommended if you are in the market for memory.  It can also be
    downloaded <http://www.newertech.com/>
    
    Again, if you continue to have problems, please post additional notes
    and we will try our best to help.
    
    					Bob Harris

    Sorry about being so obscure in my problem description. I mentioned
    Compusa's diagnosis only because it was wrong, and they were trying to
    sell me $300+ worth of replacement parts that I can get elsewhere for
    less than $100. They also seem to have screwed up the SCSI cable
    positioning inside the box so that now I can't reach it.  My question
    about how to open up the box was really directed at asking "How do I
    replace the CD drive when I finally get around to it?"
    
    At this point, the machine will recognize most of the CDs I insert, but
    it takes sometimes up to an hour before it shows me the CD is there.
    Each interaction with the software on slow CD takes equally as long.
    This renders the software useless, for all practical purposes. From
    what you all have said/written so far -- and I thank each of you very
    much for your input -- it looks to me as if I need to play with the
    Extensions a bit more before I give up entirely and spend more money
    taking it out to ComputerTown.
    
    I'm off an another trip in about an hour, but I'll be working on the
    Mac this coming weekend, and I'll post my results then.
    
    FWIW, there has been no change in the system software, and the Mac in
    its current configuration won't let me reinstall the system software
    off the system CD. It never really boots off that CD, it simply
    recognizes that it's there when I tell it to boot from it.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    John  H-C

>    At this point, the machine will recognize most of the CDs I insert, but
>    it takes sometimes up to an hour before it shows me the CD is there.

really an hour?  I cant imagine ANYTHING that would cause something like
that....my machine boots a little slower off the CD than off the HardDrive.
The difference is notibable....but barely.

Sounds like you should buy a new internal CD....something like 8X or 12X
(although there are a lot of complaints about wobble in 12X CDs) and
replace the damn thing.

but I cant help you figure out how to open the integrated box.
Try calling a local computer store.....I have found them real helpful
with questions, when I ask to talk to a tech in the back.
bob

    Taking an hour to reconize a CD is way too long.  My first guess is
    that the CD-ROM drive is having difficulties.  Maybe a dirty read head.
    I tend to agree with .242 that maybe a new drive is called for.
    
    But playing with the software couldn't hurt (too much :-)  Just be
    careful that you don't do anything to loose personal data (you know the
    letters, spreadsheets, preferences files with the saved game levels and
    score, etc... that may have been created on the system).
    
    Besides calling a dealer to ask for disassembly instructions, you could
    try posting a message to the Usenet News Group
    "comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc" or "comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage".  There
    is always someone who has been through this before and will be glad to
    tell you all of the trouble they had.
    
    					Bob Harris

    
    You can get to the CDROM and floppy drives by sticking a wide, flat 
    screwdriver into a slot above the headphone jack and prying carefully
    to release a catch that will allow the roughly 3x12 inch plastic face
    to slide down (away from the built in tube).
    

    My gut feeling about this is some sort of whacko SCSI problem.
    
    May not hurt to do the standard
    clean-up-the-damage-from-crashes-or-other-problems sequence:
    
    1. reset parameter RAM
    2. rebuild the desktop
    3. have Norton Utilities scan the hard drives for problems
    4. install a high quality disk driver and CD-ROM driver like FWB's
    5. remove cruft placed in system folder by useless applications
    	(SpringCleaning comes to mind as a good app. to do this; but
    	I'm also thinking of various TrueType junk that some apps install 
    	without tell you)
    6. Use an active terminator on the SCSI bus (if there are any external
    	devices)
    7-8... some other possibilities other people may come up with?
    9. clean install latest system software
    
    Try each one in order before advancing to the next one.
    
    Some of these steps are not necessarily easy but I find they clean up
    >90% of the problems.
    
       erik

    
    Since it sounds like the Mac may be new to you, let me explain how to
    do some of the steps Erik recommends (most of us take them for granted)
    
    >1. reset parameter RAM
    Hold down Command Option P R while booting. the Mac should chime again
    like it does when it first starts to boot...let it do that three times
    then lte it boot.
    
    >2. rebuild the desktop
    Hold down Command and option while the Mac boots. You will be asked if
    you want to rebuild the desktop, you do. 
    
    A better option here is to use TechTool and delete the desktop files.
    
    >3. have Norton Utilities scan the hard drives for problems
    If you have Nortons' Utilities for Macintosh it's in the manual, if
    not, you may want to get it.
    
    ...Skipping the obvious ones...
    
    9. clean install latest system software
    When the installer comes up, if you are using V7.5.x you can type
    Command Shift K to get a dialog box allowing you to do a clean install.
    Chose that option. If you are using an older installer you have to
    delete the Finder and System Files from the system folder by booting
    off the CD and dragging them to the trash then emptying the trash. If
    you are using a newer installer they should have an option to install a
    new system folder.
    
    >Try each one in order before advancing to the next one.
    
    >Some of these steps are not necessarily easy but I find they clean up
    >>90% of the problems.
    
    Even if they clean up nothing, most of the steps are worth it just to
    keep your system free of problems. I don't think you really need to
    install third party drivers, but that's my opinion. I think Apple's
    drivers do a decent job. They don't provide caching though.
    
    If your CD works OK when you boot from it, then I think your best bet
    is to follow Erik's advice.
    
    Mario

    Well, I couldn't fly out of Boston yesterday because they still only had
    one runway, and my flight was cancelled, so I spent last evening
    playing with the Performa.
    
    The suggestion in .244 led me in the right direction.
    
    What I can tell you is that, before you stick "a wide flat screwdriver
    into the slot above the headphone jack and prying carefully," you first
    gently insert the blade of the screwdriver into thespace between the
    drop panel and the monitor bezel and gently twist the blade. This
    causes the panel to drop away, after which inserting the blade into the
    slot that *was* over the headphone jack causes the whole panel
    to pop off.  I'll spare you all the details on how I figured that out.
    <g>
    
    Anyway, using Myst as my diagnostic software, I pulled out the CD-ROM
    and took a pencil eraser to the leads. The performance improvement was
    immediate.  It became clear after a few iterations that the problem 
    was indeed with the CD drive, whichis incapable of reading and
    transmitting to the Mac a complete sequence of data. It would seem that
    the previous dismal performance was the result of the drive seeking and
    not finding data to report to the Mac display. This was not apparent
    with less complicated software, which seemed to simply run slowly. Myst
    puts up a fairly complicated series of images and pseudo-video as it
    initiates, and more and more of these images were showing up after each
    cleaning of the leads. It just never got clean enough to show the whole
    sequence.
    
    Now that I've convinced myself that it really is a CD problem, I'll go
    ahead and place that order for a new, faster CD drive with Pre-Owned
    Electronics, which has a 4X for the Performa for $189.(I just can't
    bring myself to order anything by credit card over the web yet.)
    
    I'll probably order a couple new SIMMs from them while I'm at it.
    
    Once the CD is really functioning again, I'll do the other things you
    all have suggested.
    
    Thanks for all the help.
    
    John H-C
                                       

>    Now that I've convinced myself that it really is a CD problem, I'll go
>    ahead and place that order for a new, faster CD drive with Pre-Owned
>    Electronics, which has a 4X for the Performa for $189.(I just can't
>    bring myself to order anything by credit card over the web yet.)

    Go for it...but check around for prices (at least I would).

    I see ClubMac has new 8X CDs, external, for $179.
    I suspect you should be able to do a lot better than 4X at $189.
    (for used?)

    check www.thechipmerchant.com for memory prices....about $5 per
    Megabyte is close, but memory has gone up a little.

    ClubMac often has deals....www.club-mac.com

    APS has great drives too, and sometimes has deals.

    I've seen great scsi cds (internal), about 3X or so for less than
    $50 in www.onsale.com
    bob

    Re .247
    
    > I'll probably order a couple new SIMMs from them while I'm at it.
    
    The Performa 575 has 4 MB of RAM soldered to the motherboard and one
    72-pin SIMM socket.  It requires 80-ns or faster memory, and you can
    put a 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, or 32-MB SIMM in it to give your machine a total
    of 5, 6, 8, 12, 20, or 36 MB of RAM.
    
    It has two SIMM sockets for video RAM; Apple shipped it with 512 KB of
    VRAM that allows it to display 256 colors, but you can replace the two
    SIMMs with 512-KB SIMMs to give it 1 MB of VRAM.  With the added VRAM,
    the machine can display 32768 colors.
    
    Information from GURU 2.1.

    <http://www.apstech.com/> has new 8X CD-ROM internals for $179.95 and
    there Close-Out page lists a 4x $99.95 and a 6x for 119.95.
    
    I have several hard disks and a DAT tape I purchased from APS and I'm
    happy with their products and support.
    
    					Bob Harris

    RE: .249
    
    I think somewhere early on, Apple added the extra VRAM SIMM to the
    base 575 configuration.  My 575 came with 32768 color support right 
    out of the box.
    
    				-John

    Thank you, .249!
    
    There I was miffed at Apple for putting 68-pin SIMMS in their boxes,
    when all the time they were VRAM. I pulled out the motherboard and
    replaced the 2Mb 72-pin SIMM that was there with an 8Mb SIMM that has
    an "IBM" sticker on it. Works like a charm.
    
    After having cleaned the leads on the CD drive and doubling the RAM, I
    now find that Myst works as well as it ever did -- given a 2x CD drive
    -- and we don't have to disable extensions to make it run.
    
    It may very well be back to it's old self, only better. 
    
    Thanks for all the help! Thanks to you all, Mac hardware isn't the
    mystery it once was. I'll be checking out those web sites later
    this evening.
    
    John H-C

    Re: .252 -< It *seems* to be fixed! >-
    
    Your kids haven't been watching the commercial where they stick
    something gooey into the VCR have they, and decided to emulate it using
    the CD-ROM :-)
    
    IF it starts to act up again, then maybe a CD-ROM cleaner kit might be
    the next step.  A dirty photodiode might also result in reading
    problems.  Maybe even a can of "air" to blow out the dust might be an
    idea as well.
    
    But if it is working OK today, then let it be, and play Myst.  Great
    game.  I spent hours playing, staying up until 2 AM some nights :-)
    
    					Bob Harris

    Not that any of you are going to care one way or the other, but I
    ordered an external 12x from APS Technologies. Much to my amazement,
    the order taker on the other end of the line was remarkably Mac savvy.
    She basically told me to forget replacing the Performa 575 with a
    comparable internal CD drive. 
    
    I paid a whopping $155 for it.
    
    Now, where does one buy a CD-ROM cleaner kit, and how much do they
    usually cost? That seems like the next thing to try.
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

Since you're dealing with APS (#'s/pages refer to Winter/97 catalog):

#105308    Fellowes CD Cleaning Kit        $10.95        (page 20)
    (I can't tell from the picture what this includes)

Or per Bob's suggestion a couple back:
#105307    Fellowes Dusting Gas (2.75 oz)  $4.95        (page 51)
#105298    Fellowes Dusting Gas (10 oz)    $10.95
    (check to make sure the kit doesn't include a can of gas)

    Re: .254                                      
    
>    Now, where does one buy a CD-ROM cleaner kit, and how much do they
>    usually cost? That seems like the next thing to try.
    
    You could also try Radio Shack, or any of the stores that sell Music
    CD's (at least 2 or 3 in every Mall, plus Sears, Lechmere, etc...).
    
    					Bob Harris