Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

    ok, here goes:

    <flame-on> After reading this base note, I was rather upset about how
    our own people rate Rally.  I understand why Trifox is rated higher,
    because the conversion is easier.  But why is the SmartStar solution
    given more credibility than our own Rally solution?  It seems to me
    that both solutions require re-engineering.

    SmartStar gets a big boost, and the blurb on Rally makes it sound like
    it is the least attractive migration solution. It says there are no
    conversion tools for the Rally option, but what conversion tools are
    there for the SmartStar option?

    I guess it just steams me when I see our own products not being
    supported by our own people! <flame-off>.

    If I have misinterpreted, please forgive.

    LBK

    
    DECuser in the UK are about to run an appraisal of Rally version 2.2
    which reads very well and appears to place it among the better 4gl
    tools.
    
    Lorey, I'm with you and always recommend Rally as my first choice 4gl
    tool when I see customers.  However, a lot of the time they ignore the
    benefits of the product and go for a more portable third-party 4gl.
    
    just a thought,
    
    Iain Stephen.

    Iain, thank you for the DECuser report (could you send me a copy,
    please). 
    
    Lorey, thank you for your support for a Digital product. We need more
    of this.
    
    How much of a difference will it make when RALLY is portable?
    
    Richard
    

    re .2 could you also send me a copy of the DECuser reports?  I'm trying to
    convince a customer right now to use Rally.  (Or maybe just post it in the
    Rally conference, and let us know.)

    re .3
    I think it will make a lot of difference.  It seems that portability is a
    big issue with customers.  They don't want to be tied to one type of
    hardware - so they tie themselves to one piece of software instead? ;-}

    The RISC platform is very attractive to many customers because of
    price/performance, but most of our current customers have a large 
    investment in VMS products.  If they can gradually convert their products 
    to Rally (while still on VMS), then the port to ULTRIX is painless.  If we 
    don't port Rally to ULTRIX, I think we will lose a lot of customers.  
    Whether people actually have to/will port their applications ULTRIX, 
    doesn't seem to matter as much as they want to make sure they can if they 
    want to (Keep your options open!)

    It also shows a commitment to Rally as a product (even if our own people
    don't follow that commitment - sorry!).  Now if we could just learn how to
    market .....
    
    Lorey

    The Oracle->Rdb migration program was developed because customers
    requested it.  The reason for targeting the SmartStar and TRIM/tools 
    4GL products is because conversion tools exist that automate much of 
    the process.  A high degree of automation means more cost effective
    migrations.  Rewriting applications is simply not an option for most
    customers due to time and cost. 
    
    If there were conversion tools available that targeted RALLY, then a 
    migration to RALLY would be more feasible.  Migration Services does
    not have the resources to undertake this tool development.  Perhaps
    the RALLY development group would consider building conversion tools
    to their product.  We would be glad to talk with them about such an
    effort.

    re 3:
    
    Richard, it's not important that Rally can be used on other databases
    than Rdb/VMS, it's BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON why customers that
    like Rally when they see it, still don't buy it.
    
    Put yourself in an IT managers position, what would you do? Would you
    take the risk to develop in a one-database tool? I certainly would not!
    It's the same reason why I would not develop in SQL*... tools either.
    
    Once asked in one of your questionnaires, about critical factors for
    Rally to be/stay attactive I responded:
    - SQL support (multi-database)
    - FIMS support
    
    BTW, the ACMS integration you are working on is a great idea.
    
    Henny Olthof, TP-DB Netherlands

re 6:  So right!  When a customer's trying to integrate (read that "make some
       sense of without going broke") an environment with proprietary operating
       systems, VMS, UNIX, SCO UNIX, and ULTRIX) he just can't commit to a
       tool that runs on only one platform--and a propriatary platform, at that.

That's why competitors sell more and more.  Look at Ingres, which ports to
VMS, everyone's U*IX, and ships packaged with "Open Desktop"; at Oracle's
forms & report packages, recently including SCO UNIX in their porting schedule,
which run on U*IX workstations and use SQL*Net (DECnet or TCP/IP) to sent
SQL requests across the net to large VMS servers; at little Sybase, which
looks pretty much the same on VMS, UNIX, and ULTRIX and provides the Data
& Report Workbenches to make users functional after only a few hours' intro.

No matter how good Rally is, it's still a 1-platform proprietary product and
that makes a weak case when we're trying to sell.  It's most hard to defend
belief in Rally when it doesn't yet ship on RISC/ULTRIX, likely will never
ship on VAX/ULTRIX, and--will it ever be ported to our application DEC 433,
which runs SCO UNIX?

Functionality's so good.  Please give us platforms!

  Elaine 

    Elaine,
    
>No matter how good Rally is, it's still a 1-platform proprietary product and
>that makes a weak case when we're trying to sell.  It's most hard to defend
>>belief in Rally when it doesn't yet ship on RISC/ULTRIX, likely will never
>>ship on VAX/ULTRIX, and--will it ever be ported to our application DEC 433,
>>which runs SCO UNIX?
    
    I would like to be able to say that this is categorically not true, however
    I can't as yet, since DEC RALLY V3.0 has not closed phase 1, and until
    this happens (in the next week or so), we are not allowed (legally
    speaking) to talk about future plans. As soon as phase 1 has been
    closed, we will be issuing a new PID to the world.
    
    However, if you have anyone in your office that went to the last ULTRIX
    sales symposium in Cambridge, Massachusetts, ask them if they saw what
    platform RALLY was running on, and what it showed. Alternatively,
    anyone who went to the last COHESION sales symposium might be able to
    tell you. Failing this, contact me, and I will send you a copy of the
    product requirements document for DEC RALLY V3.0.
    
    Richard
    
    P.S. RALLY is highly portable, and was designed as such from day 1.

    
    
    Richard,
    
    As a member of the Rally development team, you know what you have
    planned for the product.  You also know how much money you have to
    implement the plan and as a result know what parts will become 
    software rather that vapourware.
    
    The rest of us, read the notes and the requirements documents and
    wait.  And wait.  And wait for something to happen.
    
    We are winning customers over with our database strategy.  
    
    	Portable databases are bad news, proprietary databases are 
    	good news.  Use the H/W vendor supplied database system and 
    	buy a toolset that supports your strategic platforms.  
    
    	Application portability is goodness.  It makes your business 
    	solution "future proof".  
    
    The problem that Rally faces is internally and externally, it doesn't
    currently fit into this strategy !  Digital people are uncomfortable 
    with the product and so don't push it.  The database strategy is good.
    Thats why third-party portable 4gl's are becoming more and more
    popular.
    
    You have to build Rally into the database strategy, make it appear to 
    be indespensible.  Like Oracle do with their toolset.  Convince Digital 
    people of the products future and it'll sell.  Without their help you
    don't have a hope.
    
    Offer the Product Vision as part of the database PID and presentation.
    Use the same messages - "supported on certain strategic platforms..."
    as demanded by customers.
    
    At some point in time, Rally has to make a stand.  Put a stake in the 
    ground and declare its potential.
    
    At that point, we'll have something to fight with.
    
    Iain.
                              
    (no offense meant)
    

    Iain,
    
    You are quite right that without the support of people that work with
    customers, any Digital product does not stand much of a chance. We are
    working very hard to make sure that we design and build what customers
    really want in a 4GL. Unfortunately this cannot be done over night
    (although a lot of work is - note the time of this note). In the
    meantime, we are obliged to follow an established process within the
    corporation, and whether we like or not, we are not allowed to widely
    talk about our future plans until certain things have occured. At that
    point (in a week or two), we will do what we can to spread the news as
    widely as possible.
    
    Richard
    
    P.S. No offense taken.

    re .8
    
    I am sure you would not be running afoul of the legal department by
    stating in this notesfile what people saw at those two gatherings. Also
    stating what is being considered for 3.0 is no big deal either. Just
    state (clearly) it is only a consideration. We all work at Digital.
    
    By the way this discussion has been going on for years. Rally has most
    definitely suffered by its one platform support strategy. Everyone
    knows this but nothing has been done about it for years other than saying
    Digital is thinking about it. The time has come to do something quickly
    or "get off the pot". We could be doing ourselves more damage in the
    long run if we continue to sell a 4GL that only supports one platform
    and has no client/server capabilities.
    
    Ken McMullen

re: .11 
�  It is time to "get off the pot"

I would argue that what Richard is saying is that he's going to announce that 
we're doing something rather than "get off the pot"

It seems that with

   1. The New Software Group acting like they want to make us a
      software company (and David Stone seems to have that mandate),
   2. the overwhelming evidence that the way to make money in this business in 
      the nineties is through integrating the enterprise (read "take advantage 
      of price/performance advantage on the desktop"),
   3. our PC advertising
   4. the "booked solid" nature, in Los Angeles, anyway of our PC integration
      sales support and DECstart resources

we're waking up and smelling the coffee.  Sure, it's late.  Let's hope it's not
too late and do everything we can to make it happen.

Wait two weeks and see what the good news is. 

VAX RALLY is now a "strategic product" for Digital.  That's the best thinig I've
been able to say about RALLY in a long time.  

We'll see RALLY on platforms. We'll give our customers what they want and need.
It's late, but there are still a lot of applications back-logged.

Re: .7

� Look at Ingres, which ports to
�VMS, everyone's U*IX, and ships packaged with "Open Desktop"; at Oracle's
�forms & report packages, recently including SCO UNIX in their porting schedule
�It's most hard to defend
�belief in Rally when it doesn't yet ship on RISC/ULTRIX, likely will never
�ship on VAX/ULTRIX, and--will it ever be ported to our application DEC 433,
�which runs SCO UNIX?

I wouldn't be surprised to see RALLY running on both our strategic U*IX OSes
by V3.0.  But maybe I'm just optimistic.

Bruce
Sales Support
Los Angeles

    
    Just an instant thought,
    
    Lets Call it DEC Rally from now......
    
    Iain.

    Good idea Iain.

    +---------------+
    | d i g i t a l |     I N T E R O F F I C E  M E M O R A N D U M
    +---------------+


    TO: RALLY Program Team         DATE:  2 May 1991
        RALLY Interest List        FROM:  John L. Henning / Marie Murphy
                                   DEPT:  CLT               SDT Product Mgt
                                   EXT:   381-2705          381-1918
                                   LOC:   ZKO2-3/K06        ZKO2-1/M11
                                   ENET:  CLT::HENNING      TLE::MMURPHY

    SUBJ: DEC RALLY V3.0 Phase 1 Closed


    DEC RALLY V3 is the tentative name for a new 4GL Product based upon
    VAX RALLY, with:

	- New User Interface (Motif)
	- ULTRIX support
	- SQL database support

    Phase 1 was closed today, 2 May 1991.  At the closure meeting, a list of
    action items to be completed was agreed to and is attached to this
    memo.

    Phase 1 documents may be obtained from the RALLY specifications
    directory, CLT::RALLY$SPECS:

    	RAL_V30_DEVPLAN.PS  Development Plan
        RAL_V30_SPEC.PS     Specification (19,290 blocks - incl. screen shots)
        RAL_V30_PROD_REQ.PS Product Requirements
        RAL_V30_I18N.PS     Internationalization Plan
    	RAL_V30_SRD.PS      Serviceability Requirements
    	
Copies of the 4GL Program Business Plan will be made available upon request. 
Please mail your request to Marie Murphy at TLE::MMURPHY.

    

    Actions:

        What                                   Owner       Due
        -----------------------                ---------   -------
    	Complete SRD discussion                Schuetz     3 May

        Add information on support             Dolan       13 May
    	  training to public directory

        Finalized doc plan                     Provencher  16 May
          (include CSSE in discussions)

        Follow up re: Asian language support   Kirk        13 May