Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

    Too bad we can't sell the Ingres Tools (on the PC) for Rdb; we 
    could just include it in our proposal package.
    
    I just saw in the NewsBooth that HP has something called Ingres 4GL.
    Is that available to run on a PC or is it just from a terminal?

    I usually spec Focus in this situation because:

        - Focus runs on the PC
    	- Focus will use Rdb at the DSRI level
	- Focus can read CDD+
	- Focus will soon be available on RISC/Ultrix
	- Focus has very good integration with ALL-IN-1
    
    Call you local Focus rep for more details.

    Ingres on the PC is not in sync with Ingres on the VAX.
    
    HP offers Allbase/4GL on both Unix and MPE-XL machines. The development
    set is called Allbase/4GL. That 4GL is also known as TODAY from
    Computer Power. It does run on PCs. I don't know if talks from PC to
    HP. Interestingly, TODAY also supports Rdb databases on the VAX.
    
    If there are lots of PCs, you might try The Synergist by Gateway
    Systems in Okemos, Michigan. That will let you develop on a PC, port
    the application to a VAX, and cooperatively process between an Rdb
    database and the native Synergist on PCs under R:base.
    
    ---- Michael Booth

    I told them that a 4GL on the PC was a way to go and explained the
    trade-off involved: two application development environments, possible
    more network traffic, less performance.
    
    I suggested that if they wanted they could develop a 3GL application 
    with SQL/Services.
    
    Finally, I suggested they would get best performance and all the
    benefits of VAX/VMS and a single environment with PCs emulating
    terminals.
    
    He wanted to know, of course, which 4GL we "recommend" for the PC.
    I said "Ingres Tools for Rdb," explained briefly how it works with
    Rdb and, doggonit, he said "Oh yes, we've seen Ingres Tools.  We
    like them, and, if it were up to me right now, I'd probably choose 
    their database, as well." 
    
    Well it's not up to only him (he's the application development manager)
    but I'm sure he's got a say.

    Now we're going to have Cognos talk to them tomorrow (Thursday).
    The sales rep has worked before with Cognos and feels somewhat
    comfortable. I couldn't get the team to go with Focus, which 
    evidently does work on a PC and does talk across DECnet to Rdb on a 
    VAX.  
    
    My sense is that we're going to lose ground because we can't provide 
    the applications on the PCs.  We're running out of time and don't
    think we can introduce any more third parties without a revolving
    door.
    
    Hmmm... lessons learned.

    I just alkded to the Focus rep I work with.  He suggested you call
    Focus folks in NY who specialize in VAX:  Dan Ortoloni 212-736-4433
    (heavy duty Focus VAX person) and Melissa Webster (VP of VAX division).
    He seems to think you should still consider Focus.
    
    -- gerry

    What does it mean "I couldn't get the team to go along with Focus?" Who
    on "the team" is "the sage of the 4GL market?" Why do these people feel
    more comfortable with Ingres, a competitor, than Focus, a CMP? 
    
    Why is a recommendation of incompatible versions of Ingres tools a
    better choice than identical Focus versions that can communicate with
    Rdb?
    
    Am I missing something?
    
    ---- Michael Booth

    Does FOCUS really work in the nice CLIENT/SERVER - PC/VAX relationship.
    From talking to the folks from IBI, I understand that FOCUS must
    be on the VAX and the PC. FOCUS on the pc passes the request to
    the VAX FOCUS which then extracts data into flat files, which are
    then copied down to the PC. This is not what I call CLIENT/SERVER.
    Check out the prices of all the FOCUS tools.
    
    Also beware of INGRES Tools...DANGER....DANGER....DANGER. New note
    to follow soon. If you have any experience with INGRES tools for
    Rdb give me a call as soon as possible please.
    
    
    regards,
    
    Ken McMullen
    dtn 637-3330

    The FOCUS rep I talked to yesterday told me they were working on
    a PCSA version which would move closer to client/server.  He told
    me they currently use Kermit or other similar file xfr programs
    to move data between the PC and the VAX so that matches .7's info.
    
    It would be nice if they used SQL*services but who knows. 
    
    -- gerry 
    

    An update:
    
    We had Cognos come in yesterday and present Powerhouse.  The customer
    seems to like it.  The rep had been talking to the Cognos rep and
    felt it was too late to bring in another vendor (like Focus).  The
    Cognos guys did a good job of differentiating Powerhouse from Ingres's
    tools.
    
    I will tell the rep that Focus would probably have been a better
    choice (if for competitive reasons only?) than Cognos or Ingres (which 
    had been recommended to me by a fellow Sales Support-er -- I'll tell 
    him, too) and recommend he consider Focus in the future.  
    
    More important, *I'll* know now that Focus is the first choice, even
    though Ingres apparently is the only vendor whose tools can provide Rdb
    access from PC (DOS)-developed applications.  Right?  (I know about 
    dBASE.)
    
    Bruce
    
    PS: Are we encouraging vendors more friendly and less competitive than 
    Ingres to make their tools use SQL/Services?

    

    Yes, we are actively "encouraging" vendors to talk from PC to Rdb on
    the VAX.
    
    If you want specifics, talk to Ken Morse.
    
    ---- Michael Booth