Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

    Hmm... we here in DBS PM-land don't see that book... we get the US
    Systems Price List (latest is as of October 2, 1989). There are no
    Oracle products listed there.
    
    If I remember correctly, the PC group did a Digital Distributed
    Software Agreement for ORACLE-PC on the (then) VAXmate and (probably
    now) DECsystem 2xx systems.  I can't recall whether the Ultrix group
    did a similar deal for DDS ORACLE on ULTRIX systems.  We fought both,
    to no avail (the winning argument being "My business needs it, I don't
    care if it hurts yours").  Tell me what the specific products being
    offered are, and I'll point you towards a likely DRI (or somebody who
    will know who the DRI is).  You can then make a "This hurts me"
    statement direct, which carries more weight than a "They said it hurts
    them" statement from me.

	Re: .1
   �    Tell me what the specific products being
   �    offered are, and I'll point you towards a likely DRI (or somebody who
   �    will know who the DRI is).  You can then make a "This hurts me"
   �    statement direct, which carries more weight than a "They said it hurts
   �    them" statement from me.
    
        The "VAX Software Price Book" lists the following ORACLE products:
    
        Easy*SQL  This product supplies capabilities similar to
                  and is a competitor with VAX TEAMDATA and VAX RALLY.
    
        ORACLE PRO*C, PRO*COBOL and PRO*FORTRAN directly compete with
    		our compilable SQL and RDO, our SQL preprocessors for
                COBOL, FORTRAN and C, and our dynamic SQL
    
    	SQL*Plus, SQL*Calc, SQL*Forms and SQL*Menu are direct 
    		competitors of VAX RALLY and VAX TEAMDATA.
    
    	SQL*Net, SQL*Net Asynch Protocol and SQL*Net DECnet Protocol
    		combine - in various ways, I'm guessing - to directly
    		compete with our DEClink products (VAXlink and VIDA), and 
    		VAX SQL/Services and compete in our "desktop to datacenter"
    		space
    
    and finally, they all work with and can't work without
    
    	ORACLE RDBMS which is, by some measures, the most prevalent 
    		(or at least it was and still is neck-and-neck) relational 
    		database management system on VAX/VMS and is a direct 
    		competitor to the second most prevalent relational dbms, 
    		VAX Rdb/VMS (our product ;-) ).
    

    By the way, we also now sell Oracle/Macintosh in DECdirect just like PC
    Oracle.
    
    ---- Michael Booth

�        The "VAX Software Price Book" lists the following ORACLE products:
    
�       Easy*SQL
    
�       ORACLE PRO*C, PRO*COBOL and PRO*FORTRAN
    
�       SQL*Plus, SQL*Calc, SQL*Forms and SQL*Menu
    
�	SQL*Net, SQL*Net Asynch Protocol and SQL*Net DECnet Protocol
    
�      	ORACLE RDBMS

    Q numbers?  SPD Numbers?  ULTRIX, VMS, PC, (Macintosh, as Mike points
    out)?
    
    
    

    Here's one:
    
    Professional Oracle (PC) Q6VGL-CZ
    Oracle Network Station   Q6VGN-CZ
    
    I'll get Mac when I can.
    
    ---- Michael Booth

            The "VAX Software Price Book" lists the following ORACLE products:
    
    �    Easy*SQL  This product supplies capabilities similar to
    �              and is a competitor with VAX TEAMDATA and VAX RALLY.
         QB-VISA*-T5
         QB-VISA*-TM    

    �    ORACLE PRO*C, PRO*COBOL and PRO*FORTRAN directly compete with
    �		our compilable SQL and RDO, our SQL preprocessors for
    �            COBOL, FORTRAN and C, and our dynamic SQL
         QB-VIYA*-T5
         QB-VIYA*-TM    
         QB-VJ1A*-T5
         QB-VJ1A*-TM    
         QB-VIZA*-T5
         QB-VIZA*-TM    
    
    �	SQL*Plus, SQL*Calc, SQL*Forms and SQL*Menu are direct 
    �		competitors of VAX RALLY and VAX TEAMDATA.
         QB-VNFA*-T5
         QB-VNFA*-TM    
         QB-VITA*-T5
         QB-VITA*-TM    
         QB-VIRA*-T5
         QB-VIRA*-TM    
         QB-VJ2A*-T5
         QB-VJ2A*-TM    
    
    �	SQL*Net, SQL*Net Asynch Protocol and SQL*Net DECnet Protocol
    �		combine - in various ways, I'm guessing - to directly
    �		compete with our DEClink products (VAXlink and VIDA), and 
    �		VAX SQL/Services and compete in our "desktop to datacenter"
    �		space
         QB-VIUA*-T5
         QB-VIUA*-TM    
         QB-VIVA*-T5
         QB-VIVA*-TM    
         QB-VIWA*-T5
         QB-VIWA*-TM    
    
    �and finally, they all work with and can't work without
    
    �	ORACLE RDBMS which is, by some measures, the most prevalent 
    �		(or at least it was and still is neck-and-neck) relational 
    �		database management system on VAX/VMS and is a direct 
    �		competitor to the second most prevalent relational dbms, 
    �		VAX Rdb/VMS (our product ;-) ).
         QB-VIQA*-T5
         QB-VIQA*-TM    
    
    ...and one more that I, in my righteous fervor, missed is ORACLE
    SQL*NET TCP/IP Protocol which makes the other stuff work on TCP/IP
    networks and, thereby, promotes their products.  (for good measure)
         QB-VIXA*-T5
         QB-VIXA*-TM    
    
    

    This is the result of the DDS agreements signed with ORACLE and
    many of the other 3rd party database vendors that expand our
    offerings for customers who want to purchase those products
    thru a single purchasing entity....Digital.
    
    Mark
    

    We are aware of the intent of the "single purchasing entity" logic.
    However, there are other ways to achieve the same result.  
    
    How many times have the Oralce products been included in a "single
    purchasing entity" sale ??   How many !!
    
    Better yet, how many times have these Oracle products been sold by
    Digital in ANY type of sale ??
        

    Suppose a customer wants to buy an HP or IBM box. Will we also sell him
    that for his convenience?
    
    Or are we saying that "that's different, hardware is important."
    
    ---- Michael Booth

    re.8  I suspect the folks who manage the DDS agreements will have
    their sales information, and the Enterprise Integration Services
    folks or whoever looks after all our intergration/prime contracting
    or Special Sales programs will have their program info.
    
    re.9  Most of our enterprise integration competition is learning
    how to sell DEC boxes for customers who want the integration
    service, so I suspect we will learn how to handle HP or IBM or
    other boxes to help solve customer problems if we really mean to
    be in that business in the long run. 
    
    Mark
    

    On a somewhat related note, would any of the previous authors care to
    comment on the results at the KO woods meeting yesterday, where this
    very issue was discussed?
    

    Bruce,
    
    To at least salvage something from this situation, would you mind
    (if you have the time) putting the prices for the ORACLE products
    in this note.
    
    Having ORACLE complete prices and maintenance fees would be a great
    help in competitive situations and in convincing sales people that
    in most cases the customer can not afford both ORACLE and a decent
    size VAX to run it on.
    
    Thanks,
    Michael

    The prices for ORACLE products listed in the July 18, 1989 "VAX
    Software Price Book" (EE-C0206-38) are

        *   |
            |
    ___________________________________________________________

    Easy*SQL		2710	10346	15519	25618	30791
    
    PRO*C		2032	7759	11639	19214	23093
    PRO*FORTRAN
    PRO*COBOL

    RDBMS		13548	51729	77594	128092	153956
    
    SQL*Forms		3387	12932	19398	32023	38489
    
    SQL*Plus		2710	10346	15519	25618	30791
    
    SQL*Menu		2032	7759	11639	19214	23093
    SQL*Net Async
    SQL*Net DECnet
    
    *The prices are in U.S. dollars, are for the U.S. only
    and are for (left to right) VAXstation 3100/3200/3520/3540/8000, 
    MVII/750/8200/8250, 780/785/8300/8350, 8600/8650/8550/8700/8810,
    6240/6340/6350/8800/8820.  
    
    There are prices in the book for other VAXes; you can interpolate and 
    be close.  No prices were given for bigger VAXes (6000-4XX), but I 
    seem to recall hearing that the RDBMS is ~$198K for a 6000-460.  I 
    don't know if they have the equivalent of our "run-time" license, but 
    I'm sure it's not available for the "nominal" $755 (for media and 
    documentation) we charge for Runtime Rdb.
    
    They also charge exorbitantly (30%-40% of license fees) for maintenance
    contracts.

    -b

    Are the prices in .13 for VMS or for Ultrix ?
    
    -mark

    Re .9  SQLRUS::BOOTH
    
    In answer to your question, suppose a customer wants to buy HP or
    IBM box. Will we also sell him that for his convience?
    
    We had better be prepared to say yes to that question or get out
    of the System Integration business.  As a matter of fact we better
    be able to say yes to other vendors databases as well!  
    
    In the UK we our servicing my clients IBM Mainframe & foreign PC's.
    What's the difference?  If we want to be perceive as being able
    to become strategically important to our customers we MUST give
    them what they want.  Even if it is not ours.   

    Giving the customer what he wants is NOT SELLING. It is being an
    order-taker. If that is your grand vision for Digital, the the future
    is very bleak. That dictates a company that is a giant dealer, not a
    leader.
    
    The main thrust of this argument is quite simple. It is short term vs.
    long-term. The smartest and easiest thing to do to get short-term sales
    is to sell the box and damn the software. That is also the most
    horrific long-term strategy. Since software is the differentiator, it
    means the customer has nothing invested in Digital except the box.
    Digital has virtually nothing invested in the customer either. The real
    problem with this strategy is that it rests on constantly acquiring new
    accounts. It is software and applications that create loyalty. Hardware
    is now simply an enabling technology.
    
    If you want us to be like Sun or Appolo, the sell the box at all costs.
    If you want us to be like IBM, we will have to take the long-term view.
    Yes, that requires richer software. That also requires selling rather
    than order-taking.
    
    As a final point, we do dpend on implementors to recommend our
    hardware/software. However, in a world where giving the customer
    "whatever he asks for", why make any products at all. Why not be a
    reseller only. Then all you have to do is take the order. All the risks
    and the vision are assumed by the manufacturers.
    
    ---- Michael Booth

    Re: -1
    
    I guess your definition of giving the customer what he wants is
    not my definition.  What I meant by the word WANT was as follows:
    
   1- Customer WANTS a solution to their mobile billing problems
    
    2 - Customer WANTS to reduce inventory turns
    
    3 - Customer WANTS to reduce the number of General Ledgers in their
    portfolio
    
    Your absolutely right when you say that's not selling.  Its alot
    more than that...but it's not order taking.  
    
    If Digital is not perceived to be able to solve those problems then
    our margins will be under significant pressure long term.  We will
    have to SELL a lot harder.  As for visions......

    The new price book is out, dated February 7.
    
    The Oracle stuff is all still in there.
    
    Some INGRES stuff, too, though it's mostly either "Rdb applications"
    or for ULTRIX.
    
    -b