Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

    I am certain that Cognos's Starbase is going to present us with
    some headaches shortly.  They are promoting OSRI heavily therefore
    many of the standard knockoffs we use are not effective and to date,
    we have not prepared a full competitive analysis of the product
    against Rdb/VMS.  (If anyone has, please let me know asap).
    
    We are fighting off Cognos is some very large accounts where they
    currently are presenting an analysis done by Computer Research which
    makes commments such as - "PowerHouse Starbase has been designed
    to minimise multi-user contention.  Other RDBMS (Eg. Rdb and Oracle
    do not address this issue satisfactorily resulting in the need for
    work-arounds in the system design. .. The importance of this feature
    [concurrency locking] is such that it may in itself be a MAJOR
    determining factor in purchasing Powerhouse".
    
    This is of course, inaccurate -- but Cognos are NOT ADMITTING IT.
    They are handing the document out all over the place......so WHERE
    does the "co-operative" come in with CMP's?  How can we 'really'
    work co-operatively with a 3rd party who is also selling a database
    on VMS and who has a huge installed base of VAX customers to already
    turn around (if they want to).   I personally think we should go
    after them!!
        

A large customer of mine (GE Transportaion Systems) recently purchased Rdb 
for a Marketing project.  The users in Marketing have been Datatrieve users 
for years.  They like the VAX environment, but were looking for more 
powerful tools.  Having convinced them that Rdb offered them the best and 
most "tool rich" environment on VMS, they bought Rdb and now want to begin 
searching for some good tools to use.

We will of course be demonstrating Teamdata.  But I had also planned to 
include some third party tool makers into the fray:
	- Signal Technology
	- Cognos
	- Ingres
	- ???

I felt that since we had won the database, it was not risky to include 
Cognos or Ingres in the tools evaluation.

Should I be worried?  take precautions?

Has anyone out there been stabbed in the back by these guys after an Rdb 
sale?

Comments would be appreciated.

Rick C

>
>We will of course be demonstrating Teamdata.  But I had also planned to 
>include some third party tool makers into the fray:
>        - Signal Technology
>        - Cognos
>        - Ingres
>        - ???

We have the   B E S T   Application generator on RDB/VMS :- RALLY.
 
Arie

From what I have been told (an experienced first hand), RALLY is an 
excellent tool...for programmers.

Since my customer is looking for end user tools, I was considering 
Teamdata as well as some of the third party tools.  The availability of 
tools to layer on top of Rdb was a major reason we won the database 
platform without a fight.

I don't know if I've opened a can of worms, but I felt the database was the 
most important issue and was willing to conceed the tools to a third party 
if the customer felt strongly about them.  I am trying to control which 
vendors participate in the "4gl derby" to make sure there are no gotcha's 
with the tools they choose.

The good news is that Teamdata will be viewed first!

Rick C

P.S.:	I may try to position RALLY with the MIS staff as a great tool for 
	small applications and prototyping larger applications.

    Just to add to Shelly's comments in .1
    
    I've seen the same thing elsewhere in Australia. Cognos invited
    all current Cognos users, regardless of whether they had Rdb or
    not, to their launch of Starbase. Now if that's not something to
    worry about I don't know what is. The UK press also picked up on
    the launch, describing Starbase as a next generation database product
    in terms of its locking algorithm. See elsewhere in this conference
    for more on this.
    
    Talking with customers who have bought Powerhouse, most say that
    it is an easy to use product and have very few problems with it.
    We just have to show them how much better Rally is...
    
    John.

    You can trust both SMARTSTAR and FOCUS for end user querying,
    reporting, and minor application writing. Both are good tools and
    neither will interfere with Rdb. You might also consider 20/20 as a
    reporting/graphics tool as well, especially if ALL-IN-1 is being used
    at the site.
    
    ---- Michael Booth

I have already contacted Signal Technology to get them involved.  I feel 
very good about them (maybe I'll get a trip to California out of this)!

Based on what I have read about FOCUS in Corporate Financial Strategies 
"4GL Tools Study" I am not sure if I want to get them involved.  They got 
extremely low marks on data dictionary and only fair marks on integration 
with VAX-native data structures, data capture and menu drivers.  Should I 
care what this report says?

I'm hoping the customers like Teamdata, Rally AND Smartstar.

Thanks for the inputs,

Rick C

    I'd really like to see a copy of the "Corporate Financial Strategies
    4GL Tools Study". It could be very interesting reading. How do I get
    one?
    
    ---- Michael Booth

    Bob Bibeault @AKO should be able to point you in the right direction
    to get a copy of that study.  He was involved in the study, as far
    as I know.  His Vaxmail address is AKO458::BIBEAULT.
    
    Mike

    
    Having worked with Rdb/VMS V3.0 since a year last March (a field
    test version in California) and also having just left COGNOS after
    spending considerable time with their RDBMS Starbase (and of course
    their 4GL PowerHouse) investigating comparisions and differences,
    I would suggest that Rdb/VMS is in for a good race!
    
    COGNOS are STILL a language company, what they are now offering
    is connectivity to other hardware platforms and other vendors RDBMS.
    
    In purchasing Starbase this is simply a means to an end.  There
    real interest is in STARNET and STARGATE two products (from Interbase)
    which allow them to achieve 'connectivity'.
    
    Saying that Starbase is an excellent product.  It is easy to use
    provides functionality that Rdb/VMS V3.0 does not provide like :
    
    -	2 phase commit
    -	Optimistic Locking
    -	Triggers
    -	no parameters to work out (Rdb/VMS has loads)
    -	etc.
    
    Don't knock it ... it is very good.  It is already selling well
    in this country and it has only been release recently.  It is also
    doing well in the U.S.
    
    If anyone is interested in any detailed information about Starbase
    or Rdb/VMS V3.0 I would be very glad to answer any questions or
    queries
    
    Lesley McGuire
    
    

>    -	Optimistic Locking
>    -	Triggers
>    -	no parameters to work out (Rdb/VMS has loads)
 
    The optimistic locking has been discussed in another note. Basically
    its a good approach if you don't expect too much contention. However
    if contention does arise, then its method of resolving it is less than
    optimum. Eg. TP applications would fall into this area.
    
    As far as no parameters, this might be good for small databases
    but in large or unusual applications you NEED the ability to twist
    knobs. Rdb had this approach in V1 - now look at it. I don't see
    this as a big selling point.
    
    John.