Conference hips::uk_audioo

    Linn dealers get the std 30% markup (Same for all electrical goods in
    the UK I think).
    
    As for are they overrated - I spent a lot of my (misspent?) youth
    working for mu local Linn/Naim/Ion/Rega... dealer and can say that all
    these people are very nice but certainly don't think their stuff is
    overrated.
    
    I have spent a lot of my own hard earned cash on Hi-Fi and belive that
    I couldn't get a better sound for the money I've spent (At the time I
    spent it) and Yes I have got an all Linn system. You may say that I get
    a discount - which is true - but I could get the same discount on
    anything from Sanyo to Sony (To Krell for that matter).
    
    But as I.T. said If you can't here the difference then don't but it -
    maybe your listening too hard ?
    
    Talking of Linn ...
    
    	New baseboard will be about by this Sept.
    
    	Much will happen at Chicargo Jan-92
    
    	Expect the following
    
    		Linn A/D - Transport to follow
    		New Low-end LP-12 (No valnalla or Lingo)
    		New replacement for 'bricks - based on Kaber technology.
		+ More
    
    1992 will certainly be a busy year for Linn...

    Woops, sorry as some would say ``carnt trype for nits''
    
    It will be a D/A not an A/D.
    
    Getting back to the note (Perhapse I should enter it in AUDIO with Linn
    replaced by Krell :-) I personally prefer Linn stuff. Though that
    doesn't mean I'm a Linn biggot I use to have a (special per production)
    RB300 from Rega which Linn admitted was better then their Ittok but
    this has since been replaced by a better spec Ittok, then a Ekos.
    
    A lot of people come close (Roxan/Ion/Naim) but for my money (which
    after all is what it is) Linn still win (but only just in some cases).
    
    Another thing I like about Linn is their policy on upgrading. You can
    convert an original 197% (Is % a wildcard in ULTRIX :-) LP-12 to (just
    about) current spec. And they just offered to convert my 1914 vintage
    'briks to curent spec for �300-00 not a bad price.

    fair points ! I'm not a fanatical Linn hater, I just don't find them
    very inavative or frward looking compared to the likes of Meridian or
    Musical Fidelity. I'm glad to hear they plan a CD player (or at least
    the convertr), maybe I'll then stay in a hi-fi shop when I realise
    the're a Linn dealer.
    
    When will they replace those Isobaiks though ( 2 channel mono !) :-)

    Linn may have been overhyped in the past, but only by the media. Things
    aren't so bad now. Some hifi journalists have spouted a lot of taurus
    guano over the years, both pro and anti Linn, but then their job is to
    sell magazines!
    
    Linn may not appear very forward looking because their public face
    deals with conventional product. What goes on behind the scenes in
    developing that product and understanding others would convince you
    they are very forward looking. They just don't jump on bandwagons.
    
    As far as bias in this conference goes, I can see why you feel like
    that but I can assure you it is not a concious decision on anyone's
    part. It's probably just that those of us who have chosen to spend our
    hard-earned on Linn kit are very enthusiastic about it. If owners of
    other manufacturers's kit do not feel enough enthusiasm for their
    systems that may (and may not!) say something about the role it plays
    in *their* lives.
    
    As far as being unconvinced by dems of Linn kit, that's fine. Linn
    openly say that they would rather you listened first, even if you buy
    someone else's kit afterwards; then *you* have made a decision on
    *your* criteria. Those of us who are convinced by Linn dems just happen
    to share Linn's priorities when it comes to judging what we will get
    into debt for! If the dealer who gave you the dem didn't explain what
    Linn's priorities were, then he/she wasn't doing their job; if they did
    but you didn't understand, again they weren't doing their job; but if
    you understood but judged by something more important to you, great.
    It's your money.
    
    Dave

On a (slightly) more serious note.

Isobariks have often been critisised by the press for their ``mono'' sound.
A lot of this was due to people (The reviewer) placing in speaker too far apart!
'Briks shouls be placed close together fireing up the length of the room. Even
then they are not as good as say the _old_ Qual ESL but they should match most
other things. Another thing to remember is they are very revealing to the extent
of showing up faults in the mastering process. 24-track recording can sound very
mono (One channel per track if you see what I mean) even on well set up 'briks.
On the other hand good quality two track can sound ... well I'll leave that up
to your ears.

It this mono-problem is at a friends tell him to try moving them around a little
- a few inches can make all the difference.

	Linn and the other very expensive stuff is basically for
	people who are first and foremost enthusiasts.

	Paying ten times as much as base level equipment, for what
	is a marginal improvement is justified as being the price 
	necessary to obtain the best. 
	
	Most people just think it's a waste of money.

	-John

I think there is a danger of changing the base note from debating about
Linn, and debating about High End Hi Fi. If you compare Linn on price
to high end Hi Fi, then Linn would be seen as a mid-range solution!

People who like Linn, would argue that Linn is excellent value high end
Hi Fi, and maybe that Linn sounds better than anything else.

Noter .5 has to decide (looks like he already has), whether or not, any
extra money is worth it.

Mark.

    re. 6....
    
    Linn isn't all hi-end. They make some competetively priced and
    competent entry level kit. As Mark says, pricewise Linn aren't hi-end
    anyway. Compared to the *real* hi-end, Linn is very cost-effective,
    cheap even!
    
    Dave

	So Linn isn't expensive?. What's the price of the standard
	setup then -

	Table
	Arm
	Cartridge
	Stylus
	Pre-amp
	Amp
	Tuner
	Tape deck
	CD player
	Speakers
	Cables

	Assuming of course that they can actually supply all these
	essential� items.

	-John

	Personally I no longer consider a record player essential but
	some do.

	So Linn isn't expensive?. What's the price of the standard
	setup then -

	Table		Linn Basik	�400
	Arm
	Cartridge
	Stylus
	Pre-amp		Linn Intek	�400
	Amp
	Tuner		Aiwa		�120
	Tape deck	Aiwa		�120
	CD player
	Speakers	Linn Index-II �200 (More for stands)
	Cables		�2-15 per meter

	Assuming of course that they can actually supply all these
	essential� items.

    	Linn's policy on things like tuners and cassette decks is not that
    there is anything wrong with them mearly that they don't want to
    produce them. Any Linn dealer will be happy to recommend good quality
    alternatives (I just picked AIWA 'coz they are good value). I bet you
    would get a Sony rep saying that - you see Linn aren't that blinkered.
    
    (Yes I know that Linn are producing a Tuner at �1300 but by their own
    admitance that is a lot of money a ``specialist product'')
    
    PS The prices here are guesses I could be wayout. I never spend less
    that �1000-00 on any single part of a Hi-Fi system 'coz it just
    wouldn't sound good enough (PS That was a joke - my Tuner is a �30-00
    end-of-line ex AIWA rack system - but its OK for what I want)
    
	-Rik

	Personally I no longer consider a CD essential but
	some do :-)

re: .9 Well, I let my ears determine value for money, not my wallet.

When I hear something that sounds good, I then decide if I want to continue
listening to what I was before. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't.

I would say without hesitation that Linn have offerred me value for money
for every one of my purchases of their kit. No, I don't have an all-Linn system.

Re. .11

>re: .9 Well, I let my ears determine value for money, not my wallet.
>
>When I hear something that sounds good, I then decide if I want to continue
>listening to what I was before. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't.
>
>I would say without hesitation that Linn have offerred me value for money
>for every one of my purchases of their kit. No, I don't have an all-Linn system.

Not prepared to say how much though!

Re. .10

Ok so we've done the garden shed, what about the living room?

-John

�Re. .10
�
�Ok so we've done the garden shed, what about the living room?
    
    ?
    
    Confused - are you saying that the Linn system proposed in .10 doesn't
    sound good enough. It (probably) would sound better just about any CD
    system (Independent of price�) and as such represent good value for
    money.
    
    To get a CD which sound as good as a Linn Basik I guess you would have
    to spend over �1000-00 on the player alone - then you've got to get a
    tuner, tape deck, amp, speaker ... :-)
    
    I guess a top flight Micro Mega CD or Arcam 170 + External DAC would
    match the Basik and the Naim CD would beat it (But that is extremley
    good value for money at �3000-00 :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) )
    
    (I've never heard these CD's so I'm only guessing)
    
    
    

	I am clearly at a considerable adbantage inasmuch as I
	have heard both CDs, and LPs. What astounds me about LPs
	is how absolutely huge they are and no sooner have you put 
	them on the bit that goes round and dropped the needle on
	'em, they've finished playing.

	I have one or two CDs that are transcripted from the days
	of direct recording on disc, and with these you can enjoy
	the rythmic clicks, rumble and hiss, just as you'd get
	from the Linn. Perhaps if CD makers were to record special
	versions especially for shellac enthusiasts, complete with
	all these familiar sounds they'd come around to buying them.

	-John

A Linn Basik turntable and Akito arm (at pre VAT increases pricess) retails at 
about �250, plus �90 for a K9 cartridge.

So if you have paid �400 for a Linn Basik then someone REALLY has ripped 
you off!!!

Alex.

I don't think Linn kit is overrated.  Overhyped, perhaps, but the main thing is
that Linn follow through with a considered and well-engineered product line
and a professional dealer network.  Linn is mentioned a lot here, but I'm sure
that's just because Linn is very popular and very successful.  They offer a
particular, consistent, designed sound that's very attractive to most who hear
it.  To the charge that non-Linn users aren't enthusiastic about their kit I
could answer that perhaps they're more interested in listening to it than
talking about it?  No, to be honest I'd like to post an evaluation of my own
system but it's a lot of work and I guess I just haven't got round to it.

I don't think it's fair to compare this kit with real cheap stuff.  For record
decks, it'd be a good idea to compare only that kit that doesn't destroy
your record collection.  The comment in .6 about Linn being ten times the cost
for marginal improvement would suggest a �25 record deck.  Fair comparisons 
would be with the Regas and Thorens of the market rather than midis or SP25s.

Re the comment on Isobariks putting out two-channel mono, you might be
interested to hear them on Mana stands.  I heard these at John Watson's (Mr.
Mana, man) house, and they were more like stereo than any other Isobarik
installation I've heard.

.13 suggests an Arcam Delta 170 and outboard DAC might match a Basik.  Well I
have a Delta 170 and Musical Fidelity Digilog, and used to have an Axis/Basik
Plus/K9.  No question, the Axis stomped all over the CD.  I don't know if a
Basik would do as well, but its arm is certainly a lot better than the one on
my old Axis - arm resonances were my main complaint with it.

I don't have any Linn kit now, but I am indebted to them, via my old Axis, for
showing me how good a record player could be.  It pushed me into getting a
system that gets me closer to the music than I'd thought possible.  Even
though I didn't end up choosing the 'Linn sound', Linn made a real difference
to my life.  No exaggeration.

Nick

    In this discussion it might be as well to mention what Linn are trying
    to achieve.  I'm no Linnie, but they tell me that Linn try for putting
    across the tune, that is being able to follow the timing of the tune
    and continue it for yourself if the music stops.  Also included are
    pitch stability and clarity (to be able to discern differing notes).
    
    You can hear Linn fans listening to a terrible din that has wonderful
    rhythm and timing, though not all Linn systems are like that!
    
    Meridian go for reproducing a realistic scale of music, essentially
    soundstaging / imaging (Linn don't relly believe this is part of the
    music).
    
    Pink Triangle are for reproduction as close to the master tape as they
    can get.
    
    IMHO, the ideal would not be one of the above, but a combination of all
    three.  I have to say though that Linn do achieve their aim, at least
    with their more expensive systems.  

    Well that seemed to provoke a good deal of interest !?
    
    Clearly a lot of people out there are happy Linn users, which is after
    all good especially as Linn are a UK firm.
    
    One final question:-
    
    what kind of music do you Linn users listen to in the main ?
    
    Can I guess ?
    
    

    I listen to everything from Pink Floyd to Prokofiev (sp?). But I don't
    like Rap or Reggie (Though they do sound good on my system�). I think
    that a ``good Hi-Fi'' (whether Linn or otherwise) will encourage
    (enable?) the listener to enjoy a wider field of music. There was a
    time when I could only listen to ``Pink Floyd ~ The Wall'' but for
    example this is the last batch of records I bought (Off the to of my
    head but you'll get the idea)
    
    	Chris Rea - Auberge
    	Rick Asley - Free
    	A collection of Handel's works for Harp
    	Some Jazz group I've never heard of but the record was �0.99 (A few
    		good tracks as well)
    	Cindy Lauper - ??
    	American Rock Legends (Or something like that)
    	Seal - Seal
    
    All for less than �25-00
    
    	Rik
    
    �What do you mean NOT ENOUGH BASS ?
    
    PS I have well over 500 records about 150 of which are classical.