Conference 7.286::digital

5159.0. "IEG: 4/166 "Relatively current"" by PERFOM::HENNING () Tue Feb 25 1997 07:03

    IEG has announced a program to move excess inventory --
	http://cassidy.mro.dec.com/ieg/sbu-bulletin.htm

    I support the move.  If you don't really need the fastest, latest
    hardware, it makes sense to let customers pay full pop for the latest
    and we'll use the less current stuff internally.  The workstation 
    substitution of an AlphaStation 4/166 even makes some sense - I use a
    4/233 every day for web access and terminal windows on Unix and VMS
    systems. It's snappy; I could probably live with a 4/166 for these
    simple kinds of load.
    
    On the server side, IEG is substituting the AlphaServer 2000 5/300. 
    That's a speedy system.  Our engineering group does effective UNIX
    timesharing on a system that is less than 1/3 as fast, typically with
    30 or more users (as reported by "uptime").
    
    But there's one phrase at the web site that seemed to be trying very
    hard to put positive spin on less than stellar news:
    
    > Frequently Asked Questions
    
    > Q: Is the excess equipment current or obsolete technology?
    
    > A: The excess equipment is relatively current. For example, an excess
    > AlphaStation running at 166MHz will be substituted for a
    > current-generation workstation running at 233MHz.
    
    The AlphaStation 200 4/166 was announced 25-Oct-1994 --
    	http://webir.das.dec.com/objects/SU1AWY/SU1AWYSC.TXT  
    
    It is a 166 MHz EV4 desktop workstation.  Digital first announced
    technology in this range on 20-Sep-1993: the 175 MHz EV4 desktop DEC
    3000 Model 600 --  
    	http://webir.das.dec.com/objects/SU131M/SU131MSC.TXT 
    
    I suppose you could call it "relatively current" on the grounds that we
    were still including it in our glossy brochures as recently as last
    summer.  
    
    To try to add some data into the discussion, here's the relative
    performance by SPECint95 for all systems we have measured (duplicate
    submissions deleted), with arrows to highlight the  two systems that
    are being substituted by IEG.  These results are from
       http://www.specbench.org/cgi-bin/osgresults
            
    System                         SPECint95 
    
    AlphaStation 500/500            15.0   
    AlphaServer 4000 5/466          14.1   
    AlphaServer 4100 5/466          14.1   
    AlphaServer 8200 5/440          13.6   
    AlphaServer 8400 5/440          13.6   
    AlphaStation 500/400            12.3   
    AlphaServer 4000 5/400          12.1   
    AlphaServer 4100 5/400          12.1   
    AlphaServer 1000A 5/400         11.5   
    AlphaServer 2000 5/375          11.5   
    AlphaServer 2100A 5/375         11.5   
    AlphaServer 8200 5/350          10.1   
    AlphaServer 8400 5/350          10.1   
    AlphaServer 1000A 5/333         10.1   
    AlphaStation 500/333             9.82  
    AlphaStation 600 5/333           9.78  
    AlphaServer 1000A 5/300          8.48  
    AlphaServer 4100 5/300           8.11  
    Digital EB164                    8.08  
    AlphaServer 2100A 5/300          8.02   <---
    AlphaStation 500/266             7.93  
    AlphaStation 600 5/266           7.91  
    AlphaServer 8200 5/300           7.43  
    AlphaServer 8400 5/300           7.43  
    AlphaStation 600 5/300           7.33  
    AlphaServer 4100 5/300E          7.15  
    AlphaStation 600 5/266           6.43  
    AlphaServer 2100 5/250           5.96  
    AlphaStation 255/300             5.23  
    AlphaStation 250 4/266           5.18  
    AlphaServer 1000A 4/266          4.34  
    AlphaStation 200 4/233           4.28  
    AlphaStation 255/233             4.27  
    DEC 3000 Model 900               4.24  
    AlphaStation 250 4/266           4.18  
    DEC 3000 Model 700               3.66  
    AlphaStation 200 4/166           2.95    <----
    DEC 3000 Model 500               2.15  
    AlphaStation 200 4/100           1.88  
    
    Competitively speaking, 3 SPECint95 is about where a Pentium 100 lands:
    
                                   SPECint95
    Gateway P5-100                   3.05
    
    but if you've got floating point work to do the 4/166 will be faster
    than a Pentium/100: 
    
                                    SPECfp95
    AlphaStation 200 4/166           3.64
    Gateway P5-100                   2.72
    
    /john

    Several people have pointed out that the basenote is lacking in price
    information.  From the website, it appears that you can have a 4/166
    without monitor for $2195, with NT, CDROM, 1GB disk, and 32MB.
    
    Performance (for native code) is similar to a Pentium 100.  Could you
    get a Pentium 100 (note: not Pentium Pro) with NT, CDrom, 1GB disk,
    32Mb, and no monitor for only $2195?

    No, you'd have to go with a Pentium Pro.
    ;-)

	Methinks that someone in IEG is comparing Intel and Alpha
	megahertz to think that a 4/166 is a decent system.

	Kratz is right. For $2200 you can get a nice Pentium Pro
	system. For $1800, you can get a 200Mhz Pentium system.
	Can't you by a 4/166 Multia for about $800 (auction price)??

	Oh well, I suppose we should be glad these systems didn't
	show up in employee purchase as "The sale of the century!".
	
							mike

    
    For $1700 internal, you can get a Pentium Pro 200, 2 gig Wide Scsi
    Drive, 32mb ram,  10/100 network card, sound card, keyboard, mouse,
    no monitor.  Blows the doors off a Mustang, ah AlphaStation 200.
    
    Unless you are running VMS or Unix, then the Penium Pro doesn't
    compare.
    
    The 166s were good machines two years ago when I worked on their
    qualification.  They are not state of the art today.  For NT I would
    buy the Pentium Pro above.
    
    For Digital Unix, with two 64mb and four 32mb simms for a total of
    256mb, a 2 gig drive, and a 17" or bigger monitor, it is a "decent"
    single user machine.  Add about $600 for the monitor, $600 for the
    two 64mb simms, and $600ish for the four 32mb simms, for a total of
    $1800ish plus the $2100 for the machine, so $4,000 and you have a
    "nice" machine.
    
    In the described 32mb configuration, it is a "decent" X windowing
    system.
    
    /art
    

    The UNIX Mustang II is listed at $2772, quite a bit more than VMS or
    NT.  Assuming the new personal workstation machines will soon support
    UNIX, you can get an EV56 at twice the clock rate (around 4x
    performance) for something like $5000 street-price.  This IEG deal
    seems a bit pricey.  It certainly makes sense that they can't sell
    them to customers!
    
    	Steve

    ref .0
    
    The majority people out in the fields such as NSIS, MCS, ... are still 
    using Vaxstation 3100s, DECstation 3100s, DECstation 325Cs for development
    and daily works.  The excess "obsoltete" equipments mentioned in the base 
    note are very very "modern" and people have long been crying out for those
    equipments.   An AlphaStation 200 4/166 will be great!   

    .6 - yes
    
    If you were to replace a VAXstation 3100 Model 76 with an AlphaStation
    200 4/166, you would be moving up the performance curve by a factor of
    more than 10x
    
    A DECstation 5000 Model 50 (50 Mhz R4000) scored 42.1 SPECfp92; an
    AlphaStation 200 4/166 is more than 3x faster.
    
    See
    http://performance.netlib.org/performance/html/new.spec.cfp92.col0.html

    
    > If you were to replace a VAXstation 3100 Model 76 ...
    
    For some of us even a 3100-38 would be an improvment :-)
    
    /Kjell

    re: last few
    
    I'm not saying they're slow, I'm saying they're expensive for how fast
    they are, particularly when compared to even the _retail_ price of new
    a-series workstations.
    
    	Steve

    I'm writing this note on a Rainbow.
    
    :-)
    
    

    OK, OK, for all you greybeards a 4/166 is relatively current.
    
    For anyone who has $2195 in their pocket and the FREEDOM to spend it on
    whatever hardware they like, perhaps there are other choices which are,
    um, 3.5 years further into the future than a 166.  (IEG customers may
    not have that freedom).