Conference 7.286::digital

    Is the Program Committee equipped with affadavits proving the
    referees meet the same requirements as submittors? I'd think
    anyone with a shred of professional integrity would demand a "peer"
    review in the sense defined by the submission criteria since it has
    such a direct bearing on the practicability and cogency of the
    experiences being presented.
    
    bk

    The following entry has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
    your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

				Steve






   Perhaps the following statement could be rewritten: 
   
            "who is looking for Black people with a background in software 
            application development project management...".
   
   It would sound much less exclusive and racist if it went something like:
   
            "who is looking for people who could share their experiences
   	    from the perspective of a black project manager...".
   
   I believe that Digital would really not want to have it's systems used
   for the recruitment and posting for meetings that would use race as the
   qualifying attribute of speakers or attendees (as the first statement
   would seem to indicate).
   

Dear anonymous noter:

> I believe that Digital would really not want to have it's systems used
> for the recruitment and posting for meetings that would use race as the
> qualifying attribute of speakers or attendees (as the first statement
> would seem to indicate).
   
  Grow up.

  Digital allows its systems to be used to state that I am a
  murderous baby killer. Digital allows its systems to be used
  to state that I am a "thieving bastard". Digital allows its
  systems to be used to state that I, and people like me, are
  ruining this country.

  If this particular note happens to gore your ox because it
  asks for Blacks to serve as role models for Blacks, tough.
  Get used to it.

  And next time, have the courage of your convictions to
  put your name on your note.
                                   Atlant

    Hate to say it, but Schmidt might be right.  I *am* beginning to think
    that Digital, or at least those who say they represent Digital, don't
    give a flying **** about the level playing field like they used to. 
    Sigh.
    
    Times change, I guess.  On the other hand, I tend to agree with the
    anonymous noter that the wording could be better.
    
    							Tex

    Oh, and Schmidt...emote man, quit holding back!  :^]

    RE: note 3943.3 by ATLANT::SCHMIDT 

> Digital allows its systems...

    The point that Digital is very permissive is well taken.  I am guessing you
    are speaking from some personal experience of which I cannot relate.

>  If this particular note happens to gore your ox because it
>  asks for Blacks to serve as role models for Blacks, tough.
>  Get used to it.

    Incorrect assumption.  I wholeheartedly agree that people should serve as
    positive role models for others.  Consider, however, how the following
    statement would be received by many people (not necessarily you):
         "I received a call from an intern associated with the White Data
         Processors Association who is looking for White people with a
         background in software application development project management,
         who would be willing to speak at a symposium".

    I personally find the above statement (as well as the original) distasteful,
    not because of any potential good the symposium could do, but by the "only
    whites/blacks/whichever need apply" connotation that it presents and the
    dangers that such attitudes foster.  The point was that the wording 
    presented a very strong segregationist invitation.
      
>  And next time, have the courage of your convictions to
>  put your name on your note.

    O.K. I have.  Your reaction and subsequent false assumption about "what
    gores me" is the exact reason my original posting was anonymous. 
    Unfortunately, the topic is such that any misinterpretation (or lack of
    clarity on my part) could easily paint me as a racist or someone who has 
    no regard for valuing differences.  Quite the opposite.  

    My driving point is that we have enough things within Digital (and without)
    which emphasize the differences between us.  We have to many people around
    the world right now being killed for this very reason.  It is much
    better to look for the common good and work together (both within and 
    without).  I do not think the original invitation does this and still think
    the invitation is inappropriate.


    -- Kevin Phillips                  

	I don't think even Scott Adams would touch this one. It's just
	so stupid.

	Colour blind,

							mike

Kevin:

> "I received a call from an intern associated with the White Data
> Processors Association who is looking for White people with a
> background in software application development project management,
> who would be willing to speak at a symposium".

  A critical difference, of course, is that white data processors
  have no trouble finding role models. And if I picked a random
  collection of D.P. professionals here in, say New Hampshire,
  it's a pretty safe bet that 98 out of 100 times, the person
  will be White because 98% of EVERYBODY in NH is White.

  So if you'd like anything_other_than_White, you've got to
  explicitly ask. Only you can't 'cause that offends the
  White guys who "value differences".

  Mike, or anyone: What *IS* the racial mix here at Spitbrook?

                                   Atlant

    
    Re: .6 
    
    I hear your point:
    
    >> I received a call from an intern associated with the White Data
    >> Processors Association who is looking for White people with a
    >> background in software application development project management,
    >>  willing to speak at a symposium".
    
    The fact of life is that until a relatively short while ago, that WAS
    the way of life in America -- in an overt manner. The fact that ALL
    institutions were created solely for the benefit of White america,
    brought about organizations or events such as the Black Miss America
    show, United Negro Fund, Black Elks and so on.... Even today, White
    only privileges exist in a covert, as opposed to overt fashion.
    
    The semantics in .0 might be "insensitive", but Blacks ARE and SEE
    themselves as outsiders looking in.....
    

    
    
    At the risk of getting blasted, I just have to jump in here.
    
    I find this entire string unsettling.  I feel that any person or
    organization that uses color as an adjetive is a person or organization
    that has intent to permeate racial disharmony.  One of my dear Digital
    colleagues proudly boasts that he is Chair of the "Black Chapter" of
    some organization.  I choose to attend the DPMA chapter that has all
    races in attendance.  There is the Miss Black Teen Columbus, but no
    Miss Jewish Columbus, or Miss White Columbus.
    
    Our current Miss America is a lovely girl -- who is deaf.  I don't hear
    anyone refer to her a the white deaf girl.  Likewise, if Miss America
    were black, yellow, red, (pick your favorite color), I would still
    refer to her as the lovely Miss America  -- who is deaf.  Why not
    simply say I am a 45 year old male.  Color is not relavent.  But if you
    must, then say I am a 45 year old male who is black, white, etc.
    
    I choose not to use color, or sexual orientation, in descriptions. 
    When I had a white lesbian manager (I am a male), I respected her
    private life, but treated her, and referred to her as I would any other
    person.  She was a wonderful person, and the best manager I have ever
    had the privilege for which to work.
    
    We are different people, we will always be different.  Realize the
    differences, enjoy them, and mutually use them for creative benefit, but 
    don't continue to pervade the differences as if something were broke.  
    If we were all the same this would surely be a boring world.
    
    I believe that the base noter could have better chosen his/her words,
    asking for a person that, as was suggested, could speak from the
    perspective of a Black manager.  Most people with integrity would
    understand and support the request and would not respond with racial
    overtones.
    

    > .0
    
    Frankly, I feel this conference is not the right place to discuss
    or request anything even remotely connected with racism. May be it
    should be in a conference like RACISM (if at all it exists). 
    
    Secondly, I feel it was wrong on the part of the requestor to have
    limited the offer to a particular race.
    
    Sunder

    Remember those cute NextStep workstations? The ones that were cubic
    and shiny black?
    
    When I read that they were looking for someone to talk for the
    Black Data Processors Association (of which I had never heard) my
    mind _really_ went  "Clever name for a NextStep User Support Group but 
    why would they want a black person specifically...". Only then 
    it dawned on me...
    
    Come to think of it, if I were located in Spitbrook I'ld probably
    start up a Dutch Data Processors group - and we'ld even serve
    drabby bread roles for lunch. Of course, we'ld also all fly down
    to Texas and get Tex to do us up a real Texas steak: they
    really _are_ bigger, better and best, ain't that so, Tex? :-)
    
    re roelof
                                                             

    Roelef,
          I think you are onto something here.I was going to offer since at
    least have of what I process is black-its the little ON bits which are
    black and the OFF bits are white.
    Would you like to come as a speaker to my symposium?It is to be called
    the "Dutch/English and no-goddamn Americans(Black,white or green) Data
    processing Association".There will be sessions on the Next machine.
    
    On a slightly more serious note-for all the rules in the US about race
    etc,it is strange to see that the title would probably be illegal in
    most European countries.Backward aren't we? 

    Is it because my name isn't Black?
    
    Is it because I wasn't born in a location called Black?
    
    What attribute exactly does the word 'black' refer too? 

    re .10
    
    I personaly do not feel any thing wrong with the base note.. Some
    communities are looking for role models within their comunitie so that
    others can also learn and succeed. I am of the opinion that even
    Digital follows similar policy. For example all the Asian American
    Unity group meetings VOD has been organizing, they have always selected
    Asians as key speakers. So what is wrong with it ?
    

>   Digital allows its systems to be used to state that I am a
>   murderous baby killer. Digital allows its systems to be used
>   to state that I am a "thieving bastard". Digital allows its
>   systems to be used to state that I, and people like me, are
>   ruining this country.

Combined with your mention in another reply that you work in Spit Brook, these 
remarks have me extremely worried, since I also work in Spit Brook. It seems that 
you're a person I'd do well to avoid. Is there any way I can recognize you, 
preferably from a (long) distance?

RE: .8

	I'm not sure what the racial mix is in Spitbrook, but I was
	thinking of having an Irish-only meeting. Black Irish welcome.
	(jam that tongue in the cheek) :)

RE: .10

	Oh great, that means you'll have the sour milk in the cafe too.
	I almost died on that stuff. (Much to the amusement of my
	Dutch hosts who couldn't stop crying from laughter)

							mike 

    This ain't a white black issue. It's a "I don't understand
    different types of people" issue.
    
    For anyone who can make it, I'm hosting a conference entitled
    "Understanding Islam and Muslims, Fiction and Reality".  It's happening
    next Thursday evening at 7:30 PM in Grafton, Massachusetts (close to
    Marlboro).  If you're interested, email me at: Crosby_G on USCTR1.
    
    Expand your minds and look at the real problem.
    
    Sign me,
    
    just another WASP from central Mass.
    
    gc

>	Oh great, that means you'll have the sour milk in the cafe too.
>	I almost died on that stuff. (Much to the amusement of my
>	Dutch hosts who couldn't stop crying from laughter)
>
>      							mike 
    
    
    Mike, to call our finely crafted and lovingly made karnemelk "sour
    milk" is too much for words. I was (after Texas) going to have our
    Dutch Data Processing Group fly into Ireland for some fine
    Guiness but that - as you doubtless realize - is now definitely off.
    
    Sour Milk, Indeed...

>   For anyone who can make it, I'm hosting a conference entitled
>   "Understanding Islam and Muslims, Fiction and Reality".  It's happening
>   next Thursday evening at 7:30 PM in Grafton, Massachusetts (close to
>   Marlboro).  If you're interested, email me at: Crosby_G on USCTR1.
    
    That's good wording...although I don't exactly agree with everything
    around it.  I don't think this is a "I don't understand different types
    of people" issue, gc.  I think it's more of a "I understand some,
    respect most, but feel the days of segregation should be over".
    
    If a public event isn't open to everyone, it's suspect, IMHO.  We're
    all Americans, increasingly of mixed heritage, and it's increasingly
    difficult to respect diversity when we don't respect our common
    heritage and unity.  Hopefully, we'll one day reach a point where race
    isn't the biggest, or sometimes only, issue.
    
    								Tex

The sad thing here is, that after 130 years of "freedom", the most important
thing about a Black person in the U.S. is the color of his/her skin. 

It would, I think, be deemed ridiculous to assert the Italian-Americans, German-
Americans, Irish-Americans. etc. can only find appropriate role models within
their particular ethnic communities. 

Don't say much for progress, do it?

\dave

    Roelof, if you ever get your butt over here I'm having you personally
    to the house for the biggest, best Texas steak you've never dreamed of! 
    That's a guarantee, by the by.  Ask Andy Brunnock...he left teeth marks
    in the plate when he was here.
    
    Bring something Amsterdam's known for like...um...uh, never mind. 
    We'll talk off-line. :^]
    
    								Brent

>We're all Americans

I'm not.  (I guess that the feeling of relief is mutual! :)

Chris.

>          -< Hello? KLM? One first class ticket to Texas, please... >-

    Serious as a heart attack, compadre...see ya here.
    
    And my comment on "we're all Americans" was intended for the American
    audience in specific reference to previous notes regarding Spitbrook,
    BDPMA, etc.  Lager louts specifically excluded, other restrictions may
    apply, see your own country for details.
    

Can we have a symposium exclusively for lager louts, then?  I don't
mind their nationality...

Chris.

    re: .16
    
    We thought that sending him to ZKO might be the right thing.  Us 'folk'
    down here in Marlboro generally think that everyone up there is
    'murderous' or 'thieving' or those other things.   :-)
    
    Mark

re .16

>>   Digital allows its systems to be used to state that I am a
>>   murderous baby killer. Digital allows its systems to be used
>>   to state that I am a "thieving bastard". Digital allows its
>>   systems to be used to state that I, and people like me, are
>>   ruining this country.
> 
> Combined with your mention in another reply that you work in Spit Brook, these 
> remarks have me extremely worried, since I also work in Spit Brook. It seems that 
> you're a person I'd do well to avoid. Is there any way I can recognize you, 
> preferably from a (long) distance?

Hmm.  Evidently, you readily believe stuff you read in notesfiles.
I'd watch that tendency if I were you -- believing what you
read is definitely *not* appropriate for the Brave New Information 
Superhighway World!

    re .10

    >Our current Miss America is a lovely girl -- who is deaf.  

    She's a woman.

    Lisa

    re: .22
    
    Hey!  Whose to say *you* won't leave teeth marks when the folks from
    Amsterdam bring over their ...  eh, maybe I shoulda left well enough 
    alone.  ;^)
    
    Steve (good note, that .22!)

  On further reflection, I realized I couldn't think of a
  single African-American person that I knew at ZKO, and
  even in Digital in New-England in general, I only know
  one. The other two that I knew well are both long since
  gone. The only other Black DP professional that I know
  works for IBM.

  So I took an informal survey at lunch today in ZKO. Out
  of the, oh, hundred-and-fifty people in the cafeteria, I
  counted a grand total of two African-American faces. Then,
  wandering around among the three buildings running errands,
  I continued to pay attention, and saw one more African-American.
  As I said earlier, it's very easy to state that you have no
  problem with race when you only encounter people of your own
  race.

  I expect my perspective on the issue of race would be quite
  different if I were one of the three rather than the hundreds.

                                   Atlant

    Schmidt's right.  It *did* appear rather, how should I say, "bleached"
    when I was last in the Frozen North.  Lotta people with stereotypical
    ideas of Texas would be more than somewhat surprised to see the local
    area more closely resembles an ethnic food festival at the UN than the
    expected Klan meeting. :^]  SCA being no exception.
    
    								Tex
    
    (Don't you folks *ever* make it through here?  We're not even requirin'
    a passport!  Yet...)

    re .29
    
    Thank you, I stand corrected.

    
>    Bring something Amsterdam's known for like...um...uh, never mind. 
>    We'll talk off-line. :^]
>    
>>     								Brent
    
    Well, Tex, if I bring what I think you're asking me to bring then
    I probably will never get my teeth into that guaranteed steak. Last i
    heard the New York State Penitentiary (assuming I landed at La
    Guardia) doesn't do that great a steak and the supplies of
    karnemelk have apparently been a little sporadic lately (and been
    substituted by sour milk).
    
    No, methinks you better come this-a-way, but you better hurry cause
    last I heard the Amsterdam City Council wanted to cut down the 
    number of "coffee shop" outlets from 1600 to a mere 400.
    
    re roelof

    Re .0
    
    If you are looking for a funny speaker, that's what I do.  And I'm
    in Hartford.
    
    Black, white, red or green -- all I care about is that they laugh at
    what I say.
    
    Dan