Conference 7.286::digital

    
    Are the majority of Digital's employees in Germany unionised ?
    
    I was under the impression that Digital didn't go in for that sort
    of thing.
    
    
    Nigel

    >    Are the majority of Digital's employees in Germany unionised ?
 
    I doubt if the majority are unionised, however the percentage has been
    increasing over time.
       
    >    I was under the impression that Digital didn't go in for that sort
    >	 of thing.
    
    Digital Equipment Deutschland GmbH (Holding) - used to be Digital
    Equipment Beteiligungen GmbH - made a collective agreement with the
    IG Metall union in June 93. This is the agreement Digital just
    withdrew from.
    
    Mike
    

    I'm not sure about Germany, but here in France union representation was
    pretty well non-existant prior to the difficulties that the company is
    currently experiencing. The level of union representation has been
    rising steadily with each round of layoffs.
    
    Edward.

    
    RE previous few...
    
    If Digital (Germany) management have broken a collective agreement made
    between themselves and the employees representitives, what, if any, are
    the penalties that Digital are now liable for?  
    
    If there are any penalties will they cost Digital less than the
    redundancy payout that they would have had to make under the agreement? 
    
    Was the agreement ever any use, Or was it a useless paper tiger?
    
    It will be interesting to see if this is repeated in other countries!
    
    regards
    
    Patrick

re: .4
    
>    Was the agreement ever any use, Or was it a useless paper tiger?
    
    Amongst other things it defined the formula for redundancy payments in
    Germany that were paid during the last twelve months. So, yes it was
    used.
    
    Mike

I don't know exact numbers (in fact, they are not public), but I estimate that
something between 15 and 30 %  of German employees are unionised.

The agreement contains other regulations which were implemented, like the number
of working hours per week (36), extended (unpayed) maternity leave, rules for
internal applications to open slots, a declaration of intention to negotiate a
new salary scheme, and more.

German management claims that they will stick to all other parts of the
agreement and cancel the social plan (redundancy payments). On the other hand,
employees are not informed at all about plans at least for the next 6 to 12
months with respect to layoffs, type of business that will remain, etc. Rumours
are that headcount in Germany will be slashed by up to 50 %.

The union, which is the partner of the agreement, doubts that the agreement can
be cancelled in this form (i.e. immediately, without notice) at all. Lot of work
coming up for the lawyers...

Hans.

Ok, I can't take it anymore!  I *have* to plead ignorance and
ask "What is a redundancy payment?"

My best guess is that it's some kind of payment that laid-off
workers get when they are replaced by temporary employees.  No
temporary employees to replace your job = no redundancy payment.

Am I even close?

Rose

> Ok, I can't take it anymore!  I *have* to plead ignorance and
> ask "What is a redundancy payment?"
    
    "Redundancy payment" (British english) = "TFSO" (Digital USA english) a
    payment which is made to an employee whose employment contract is
    terminated.
    
    "to be made redundant" (British english) = to have ones employment
    contract terminated because the employer no longer has a need for the
    job that the employee is doing. Euphemisms for this term include "to be
    downsized, to be rightsized".
    
    Alles klar?
    
    Mike                             

    Re above;
    
    This was not only an agreement, but a signed contract between Digital
    and the (IG-Metal) Union. This contract cannot be lawfully terminated
    by one party only.  The contract is binding (by law as far as I am
    informed) until both sides agree to keep the old contract, draft a new
    contract, or both parties agree to terminate the contract!
    
    What concerns me is the fact that our management is applying methods
    that are unlawfull in Germanys' democracy as well as many other
    European nations.  This hardly reinforces employee confidence in
    German, European, and American Digital Management.
    
    The vast majority of DEC Germany employees are not union members (right
    now anyway), however, a majority does support the goals of the Digital
    employees that are Union members.  Most people did join as perhaps a
    last resort in order to voice our opinion in an environment of chaos
    and mistrust in a Democratic and Legal way.
    

re .9, the other way of looking at this is that the workers are hiding 
behind the socialistic European laws which are preventing our fine company 
from carrying out the needed restructuring.  

    re .10: I'd hardly call the laws socialistic, and I don't think they
    prevent restructuring. Besides, that's not the question - official
    Digital philosophy is (well, used to be at least) to operate in each
    country according to local laws.
    
    IMHO, the current mushroom management methods and massive layoffs are
    unlikely to stop the death spiral.

    re: .10
    
    I don't think breaking a signed contract has anything to do with
    socialism.  
    
    Besides, we knew what the laws were when we decided to do business 
    there, and while we were making money there. It's pretty unfair, even
    if not outright illegal, to suddenly decide we aren't going to live by
    the rules now when it's inconvenient for us.  
    
    --bonnie

Rathole Alert
    
Re. 10:
    why do I get this sinking feeling that the writer of .10 
    who finds the need to describe European workers as "hiding 
    behind socialistic European laws" may well describe the same 
    situation in the US as "workers making full use of the rights 
    of democratically upheld law in a free and democratically elected 
    society".
    
    There are always two (if not more) sides to an argument. There is
    also sensitivity and a willingness to accept other cultures and
    traditions without charicaturing them...
    
    re roelof 
    

re Note 3230.13 by HLDE01::VUURBOOM_R:

> Re. 10:
>     why do I get this sinking feeling that the writer of .10 
>     who finds the need to describe European workers as "hiding 
>     behind socialistic European laws" may well describe the same 
>     situation in the US as "workers making full use of the rights 
>     of democratically upheld law in a free and democratically elected 
>     society".
  
        No -- people who make the kinds of remarks made in .10
        typically also think that the US is going or has gone to
        socialism during the past 60 years -- they'd probably
        describe anything resulting from a union in the U.S. in
        equally negative terms.

        Bob

>>    <<< Note 3230.10 by GVPROD::DOIGTE::DonChisholm "I'd rather be skiing" >>>
                         -< always two sides to the argument >-
    
>>    re .9, the other way of looking at this is that the workers are hiding
>>    behind the socialistic European laws which are preventing our fine
>>    company from carrying out the needed restructuring.
    
    It is Digital's stated policy to abide the laws of the countries in
    which it does business. If you don't like the labor legislation in
    certain countries, then you should suggest that Digital withdraw from
    those countries. Digital is in the business of exporting products and
    services, not ideology. Your comment is ethnocentric, short-sighted and
    bigoted.
    
    Edward.

    re .15
    
    bravo!
    
    

    ...ah.....ha...! what we have known for a long time....
    all our troubles have been caused by;
        liberal, pinko, bleeding-heart, nogoodnik Socialists....
                 Liberalists....
                   Unionists.....
                     Laborists....
                       Feminists...
                         all other ...Ists not included in the above!
    
    
    This message presented by: DictoMocracy
    
    "The one and only organization fit to rule in the new world order!"
    
    Our Motto Is:   A select Few....
                    Knows what's right for you!
    
    
    
    
    Just remember one thing..... WE KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE........!

    Wow I sure cause some ruffled feathers with .10. I think what 
    offended many people was the use of the word 'socialism' and I'm 
    sorry about that. 
    
    Socialism does not have to be a negative thing. Most European 
    countries have strong social programs and the benefits are 
    significant. Standard of living, quality of life and good 
    education to name a few. In fact many countries in Europe have 
    achieved a very good balance between their left and right wing 
    ideologies.  
    
    However when big business gets into trouble and many people are 
    affected through no fault of their own these two views of the 
    world form part of the debate about what to do. 
    
    In both Digital France and Digital Germany we now have the 
    situation where these countries social policies and in particular 
    the works councils are a fundamental part of the restructuring 
    discussions.  
    
    You can argue whether the social policies are good or bad but they 
    are clearly a part of the process. 
    
 

    
    	"Redundancy," in Great Britain, means that a job or function
    carried out by a person is no longer required or necessary, which case
    the person is then redundant - hence the term.  It is against the law
    to subsequently place any person to carry out that job or function.  If
    the job/function is NOT redundant, then you cannot "get rid of" that
    person by redundancy.
    
    	Over here, we refer to what I believe you call TSFO as redundancy,
    sometimes known as "downsizing," "rightsizing" or even "capsizing!"
    
    				Malcolm.

    Re 18.
    
    Don,    No Problem.....!
    
    You can see just how upset people are over this issue... a very touchy
    subject.   Most of us want a better Digital, and would like very much
    to be part of the future company... a real vision and outstanding
    leadership would be, however, greatly needed and appreciated.

>>    <<< Note 3230.18 by GVPROD::DOIGTE::DonChisholm "I'd rather be skiing" >>>
>>                                  -< Let's try again >-
    
    
>>    In both Digital France and Digital Germany we now have the situation
>>    where these countries social policies and in particular the works
>>    councils are a fundamental part of the restructuring discussions.
    
    And a damn good job too. If the restructuring were left to senior
    management alone, then they would make a complete hash of that too.
    Their recent track record is quite eloquent enough.
    
    Edward.

    The industrial tribunal in Evry, France this afternoon threw out
    Digital's plans to make more than 300 people redundant following the
    company's failure to follow the legally prescribed procedures.
    
    Edward.

    
     Hi Edward,
    
     Just posted this in the 'Europe takes to the street' topic,
    
     Hope you dont mind,
     
     Mark.

    re: 24
    
    Too much Mineral Water... I guess.......?
    

    Today's "S�ddeutsche Zeitung", Germany's largest newspaper, had a
    rather long article about the current plans (much more comprehensive
    than the mail that was distributed to us on last Friday).
    
    DEC Germany must get rid of 2200 people (out of the 4700 remaining).
    According to our personnel manager (cited in the article) it would cost
    US$ 315,000,000 if based on the (now terminated) union contract (see .0
    also). DEC Germany doesn't have that kind of money, and the Corporation
    won't give the money. Also, the legal battle, if fought to the end,
    would probably take years.
    
    The current plan is to put those 2200 people in a separate "employees'
    company" (Mitarbeitergesellschaft), which will only be used as a
    parking place for people to find new jobs or possibly spinning of new
    companies. This company will be dissolved within a year; those still
    around at that time would get a package (but a much smaller one than in
    the union contract).
    
    Personally, I'm not sure how this costs any less to the company - in
    the worst case, they end up paying the salaries for those 2200 for one
    full year, which would certainly cost more (the loaded cost is about
    185% of the employees gross salary). On the other hand, they seem to
    hope for some financial support from the labor department; also, the
    proposal says that the employees' company would exists for a maximum of
    one year; there's no mention of a minimum period...
    

    See also today's Handelsblatt, Page 5
    
    DIGITAL EQUIPMENT / Projekt einer Mitarbeitergesellschaft
    
    Eine westdeutsche Alternative zur ostdeutschen Auffangsgesellschaft

    
    Personally, I'm not sure how this costs any less to the company <<
    
    Here's a guess:
    
    It's "make work".
    
    The attrition rate from such an organisation would be very high.
    I imagine they do not have to pay anything to people who leave of their
    own choice.  There will probably be only 25% left after 3 months.   
    
    2000+ capable, well trained, well educated people are not going to sit
    around in a pool for a whole year.  They will add nothing to their
    skills base while other workers will get ahead of them.  People actually
    like to perform useful work, and will take a pay cut to do real
    market-driven work rather than sit around or do "make work".
    
    Colin
    

The idea of this "employee organisation" was (hope it still is) also, to
qualify the employees in this organisation during that year. In the latest
news I'm missing the word "qualification"...

Stefan�

    re .26 - .29
    
    Yesterday we had a 'so called' employment information meeting
    (Betriebsversammlung). Now we are informed, that the
    "Mitarbeitergesellschaft" (MAG) is the only way to save position of
    management in Germany.
      See: not the position of the workers.
    In all other cases DEC USA or german lawcourt would assumpt power of
    decision or even TFSO management.
    
    This is what managers fear of like "devil of holy water".
    
    Although this misery was caused by themselves, they now want to be
    saved by their selfdefined foes with calling them friends and putting
    them in a switchyard. 
    
      See: If You made a problem, get rid of it.
           "We came, disturbed, forgot"
    
    The remaining submissives will be tranquillized with formulas like:
    
       "If we at length got rid of the unneeded ballast, we now go ahead
        with 7-miles-boots"
    
       "The others were not the best"
    
       "If we don't do this, you all will be liquidated"
    
    Because nobody knows exactly on which side he is, nobody knows which
    side he has to support. And this is the goal.
    
    But not with us (and I mean all). We don't want to be separated. We
    will resist. We don't sign a contract with MAG (despite of the fact,
    that this modell will hardly be installed at 01-jan-1995).
    
    Information is all. In a short time I will publish more background
    facts about the misery.
    
    Helmut (Digital Kienzle)  

    In yesterday's "Betriebsversammlung" here in Munich, Lutz (personnel
    manager) mumbled something about the "qualification" part not being so
    important, as all DEC employees are so highly qualified anyway...
    
    Also, the plan to use German labor department (i.e. taxpayers') money
    to save DEC from paying for its own management errors was met with some
    criticism (especially as we certainly didn't hesitate to transfer any
    profits out of here in the good times).
    

If Mr. Lutz thinks so, he might be right in some way but sure be wrong in
another way. 

Digital workers maybe highly qualified but they are also highly 
specialized. And that doesn't necessaryly help them to find a new job
soon  

Stefan�

    re .33: I agree.

    I'm being told that today, 15 Sep 1994, a voting is taking place with
    either the Union or the Employees as far as the creation of this
    separate entity is concerned.
    
    Can anyone confirm and, if positive, provides the result of the votes?
    
    Patrick

    No. I haven't seen anything like that going on here in Munich. I also
    can't imagine what kind of voting activity could take place in that
    matter.
    
    Klaus

The only voting activity I could imagine would be the so called "Urabstimmung"
about striking activities. Until now, nothing in that matter has took
place.

It is obvious that the employees don't want the MAG like planned from the
employer, except a very few sales people who think it's great, but of
course not for them....

And I doubt, that the employer will ask the employees if they want it or
not. 

So from my point of view, until now there are no voting activities.

Stefan�

    Just finished reading this week's issue of Computerwoche, the German
    Computerweek. Really highly motivating. Maybe 5 or 6 articles about DEC
    (oops Digital) - you can guess twice whether they were negative or
    positive. I faintly remember timews when I was proud of working for DEC
    - today, I feel embarrased when I have to say I work for Digital.

    
    .37
    
    Yes, there was a vote and they voted to end the season and not play the
    World Series.
    
    Oops, sorry, wrong notesfile.
    
    :-)
    

    The trade union (IG Metall), the Works Council, and Digital have now
    come to an agreement on the downsizing in Germany. Here's a summary (I
    have omitted some details, as the whole deal is very complex):
    
    A new 'MAG' will be founded (see previous notes) - working title
    'Analog GmbH'. 1500 current Digital employees will be transferred to
    this new startup company. Roughly 2300 employees (out of a peak of
    almost 9000) will remain in Digital. These people have a job guarantee
    (no downsizing, TFSO, redundancy, whatever you call it ) until
    31-Dec-1996.
    
    The new company is legally totally independent of Digital. The startup
    capital will be provided by Digital in form of cash, assets, projects
    etc. Who exactly will be moved to the new company hasn't been
    determined yet; according to yesterday's information at least Learning
    Services will move completely, as well as all the remains of Kienzle
    (which was taken over by Digital about four years ago). Those not
    wanting to move will get a package according to the formula currently
    in effect, but limited to a maximum of DM 50,000 (roughly US$ 33,000
    at today's exchange rate).
    
    If downsizing in the new company is required within the first 12
    months, Digital will pay the packages (current formula without upper
    limit).
    
    The current 'package' is determined as follows:
    
    age * # of years
    ----------------   monthly salaries
           39
    
    
    i.e. someone who is 39 years old and has been with DEC for 12 years,
    gets exactly 12 months' or one year's salary.

Re: .40 

>    A new 'MAG' will be founded (see previous notes) - working title
>    'Analog GmbH'. 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^

This is just too funny. I guess instead of Digits, they'll be Annies?

-stephen
Formerly of KBO and RTO

    Well, it really _is_ just a working title... though it has apparently
    leaked to the press as a fact.
    
    I'm pretty sure it won't be called 'Analog' - but on the other hand,
    why not?

    re.: .42,.43
    
    In my opinion the appropriate name for the MAG should be 
    "Kienzle Datensysteme" with a nice orange logo.

        When Sandy was tfso'd last year, she joined Analog Devices.
        
        She made a Digital to Analog conversion ...
        
        sorry.
        

From today's Wall Street Journal...

    Digital Equipment Corp. agreed to sell part of its German subsidiary to its
    employees, including the troublesome Kienzle unit acquired in 1990 from
    Mannesmann AG for $230 million.

    ...

    The move is intended to save 1,500 jobs that might otherwise have been lost
    as Digital continues to cut jobs in the region. Kienzle will be owned by
    workers and will operate in market segments Digital intends to vacate, the
    company said. Separately, Digital's 2,500-person German subsidiary will
    continue to provide services to Digital customers in Germany.

I'll leave it to someone else toi put in the whole story or the article on the 
DJNS.

BobW