Conference 7.286::digital

They probably shopped stores and (maybe) magazine ads. If we are not in
either of those places then we probably didn't get included.

I would guess that most of our PC sales are into our 'traditional'
customer base, thus store presence is not considered important.

Lee

    re: .0
    Was AST on the list?  If so, they are making Digital's portable today.
    

	Yes, AST is on the list and scored very well. The 425sl
	was rated 3rd in a tight finish with Toshiba and Zenith,
	and was rated first for those who really need to operate
	in portable battery mode. The only black mark came in 
	Windows graphics display speed.

	However no mention was made that the same machine could
	be bought from Digital. It is probably just as well because
	they are in tight supply from DEC.

			John (the proud owner of a DECpc 425sl)

    Maybe Consumer Reports tried to buy a Digital PC for testing but
    couldn't get anybody at Digital to sell them one.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To get PGP, FTP /pub/unix/security/crypt/pgp23A.zip from nic.funet.fi.

    	Or maybe they've never even heard of us. They looked up "DEC" in
    the phone book, and there was nothing there.

Not that it matters much, but in a previous Consumer Reports article on
choosing a computer system, they had a Glossary that defined "object oriented"
as a system where you move objects around on a screen with a mouse, rather than
typing commands at a keyboard.  Didn't help their credibility in my view.

						Brian

    Consumers Union (ie. the people that publish Consumers Reports uses a
    somewhat different method in acquiring and testing things. CU goes out
    and purchases the item that will be tested. Indeed they buy the item in
    anonymously. This is done so as to not unduly affect the testing
    process by vendor freebies. So if Digital does not have a significant
    retail presence, it is not likely that the Digital product will get
    reviewed by CU
    
    There was an interesting article about CU that appeared in Smithsonian
    Magazine a few months back.
    
    Joe

re Note 2725.6 by MSBCS::WIBECAN:

> Not that it matters much, but in a previous Consumer Reports article on
> choosing a computer system, they had a Glossary that defined "object oriented"
> as a system where you move objects around on a screen with a mouse, rather than
> typing commands at a keyboard.  Didn't help their credibility in my view.
  
        That's a very, very common use of the phrase "object
        oriented".  I've seen it in a lot of contexts including trade
        magazines and conference presentations.  Yes, it has nothing
        to do with the the major use of that phrase in software
        engineering.

        Bob

    
    	This reminds me of a phone call I received a few nights ago. Some
    (very nice I might add) dude from a San Fran marketing company (he
    would not reviel the name or its affiliation with the computer
    industry) ran a 30 minute + survey on the PC market.
    
    	He covered many different areas including microprocessors,
    operating systems, windowing systems and applications, software,
    peripherals, etc. He ask my rated opinion on all these product areas as
    well as business practices of a few named companies. He was so thorough
    I could not tell who he worked for. A very interesting interview and I
    never once felt like hanging up on him.
    
    	By the way, the work DEC or Digital never came up in our 30 minute
    + conversation!!!
    
    	Do you still want to ask why Digital is in trouble?
    
    	Mark

    re .9
    
      Did *you* mention the word "Digital" yourself?  
    
      Didn't think so.  You had a golden opportunity to educate this very
    nice dude from San Fran and you blew it.  How many other subtle and not
    so subtle chances are we letting slip through our hands?
    
      Marv
    

    
    
    In computer industry we are very famous as a solution vendor.  In the
    eyes of consumers, we are unknown.  That is the fact and we Digital
    need to change that.  There are 30 million PCs out there and there
    will be more coming.  We have excellent engineers and superb products
    but if nobody knows about us then that is meaningless.
    
    Consumer reports reaches to most households in America.   The boost 
    sale of Japanese cars in America since 70's is mainly due to the high 
    recommendation from the Consumer Reports.  Many people will read it
    before spending thousands of dollars to buy their notebook/laptops. 
    The consumer union usually won't repeat the same topic within 12-24
    months.  Since we are so confident in our products, this means we just 
    missed a golden opportunity to present ourselves to the publics!   This 
    also implies that the advertise campaign during the NCAA final four we 
    did is a waste! 

    re: .11
    
    so what's your point?  We can't buy space in CR.

    I noticed that in a recent review of PCs in Consumer Reports, they
    had a box on operating systems and compared DOS, Windows and (I think -
    my memory isn't what it used to be!) System 7.  I thought, "They just
    blew an opportunity to educate the public, since Windows is not an
    *operating system*!"
    
    I believe C.R. only evaluates items available for general retail
    (general consumption!), therefore we're not on the list.  I believe
    that .11's point, Mark, was that we should be selling our PCs in the
    retail market as we are now selling some of our printers.
    
    
    Susan

    Windows is too an operating system.  It's DOS that isn't
    an operating system!
    
    Answer this quick quiz: which software component arranges
    to have multiple "things" running at the same time?  
    
    

	An operating system controls the resources of
the computer.  It controls the memory, the video display
as well as other resources.

	Most of the resources are controlled thru drivers
or manager, like the memory manager or the video driver.

	Windows is an application that utilizes the
operating system to preform it's work.

	I know it can be made to look like Windows is the
operating system, but in reality it is not.

	dave.

    re. .12 & .13
    
    Thanks to .13.  My point on .11 is when we sell PCs we should also sell 
    to the public not just to CEO and CIO.  The way to do it is to sell in 
    the retail stores  and department stores.   We are very much focusing on 
    mid-large size business because those are customers of our mid-size servers
    such as 4000s, 6000s and 7000s.  However, we should not ignore the small
    business of which many of them never heard about us.  Those people have
    heard about IBM, Apple, Compaq, and HP(because of printers) but not us.
    These represent a market of billions of dollars.  Besides, someday they 
    may also grow and become the customer of our mid-size servers.

re .15

Uh.. I was joking.. hence the smiley face.

They typically would just note "Also sold as..." if they know that.

re: .15, and to continue the smiley,
>	An operating system controls the resources of
>the computer.  It controls the memory, the video display
>as well as other resources.
    
    	On an MS-DOS machine it is the currently running application that
    controls all the resources, and therefore it is the operating system.
    Windows does more to assist the application in managing these
    resources than MS-DOS.

    I may be wrong here but I was under the impression that applications
    such as Windows are only a graphical shell and must utilize MS-DOS.
    MS-DOS in turn then controls system resources.It's the handshaking
    between Windows and DOS that makes it appear that Windows is in charge.

Techno-nit:

Consumer Reports is probably wanting to report on the "user interface"
(windows or MSDOS) but ends up calling it the "operating system". Those
technically in-the-know know that Windows is not an OS, but Consumer
Reports probably does not see the distinction.

Lee

    "Consumer Reports probably does not see the distinction."
    
    I have no doubt that the writer knows, but she's writing for her reader,
    so she simplifies.  That's okay because most CU readers would consider
    Solitaire a part of the operating system because they come in the same
    package.  :-) :-)  
    
    Mark

    
    
    MS-DOS an operating system?? HA!! It's just a giant device driver
    with an attitude and a CLI!  ;-)

    re: .20
>    I may be wrong here but I was under the impression that applications
>    such as Windows are only a graphical shell and must utilize MS-DOS.
                                                    ^^^^
    
    	This is where I was making the distinction. If a machine is using a
    real operating system then you *must* utilize the operating system to
    access system resources. If a machine has MS-DOS loaded then an
    application may choose to use an MS-DOS routine to access system
    resources, just as it may choose to use a standard library routine to
    calculate a square root. Many applications and most viruses do not
    choose to use MS-DOS to access system resources, so it is the
    application or virus that is currently running that really controls
    system resources.
    
    	MS-DOS provides as optional some of the services that a real
    operating system provides. Adding Windows on top gives you many more of
    these optional services, together making up to a fairly complete set of
    services. If your application chooses to pretend that it *must* use
    these services then the combination of the two can look almost like a
    real operating system. But it is really the application that is in
    charge of the machine and is choosing to use convenient supplied
    library routines.

    Wow, I do not have a technical background but I am kind of surprised
    that with all the technical knowledge still residing here at Digital
    that there could be such a back and forth on what I thought was a
    simple question.
    
    Marv_who_is_not_an_operating_system
    

re Note 2725.25 by POWDML::MACINTYRE:

>     that there could be such a back and forth on what I thought was a
>     simple question.
  
        The question IS simple, but not all simple questions have
        simple answers!

        Bob

Perhaps someone should write CU a letter-to-the-editor and ask why Digital
laptops were not reviewed.  They sometimes print such thing with an editorial
comment about where it would have scored if such and such.  For example, "Since
the Digital 425SL is a made by AST, we would expect it to rate near the top as
AST did."

Burns

re: .13
>Windows is not an
>    *operating system*!"
Most windowing packages are not operating systems,
for example, Motif is not an operating system.

But, MS-Windows for DOS is an exception. 
It *is* an operating system. That's how MS 
describes it in their documentation.

It has many of the features normally associated
with operating systems.

It handles (1) multitasking (non-pre-emptive),
(2) memory management (multiple task sharing
one address space,  juggling DLL's),

    re: .28
    
    OK, maybe windows is _sort_of_ an operating system.
    What amazes me is that in a technical environment such is 
    this, Geos, which IS a full operating system, gets so very
    little attention.  It runs on the same platforms as 
    MS-Windows - actually on more: it offers full preemptive
    multitasking even on an 8088.  
    
    Obviously, technical excellence is no assurance of success,
    or the 68xxx processors would be the standard instead of
    the Ix86.  Which is a strong reason for worry about the 
    Alpha chip being the salvation of this company.

   MS WIndows is NOT a complete OS. You can't simply boot WIndows.
   YOu need to boot DOS, then manually run Windows. Windows can not
   handle any file I/O (DOS does that) Windows doesn't really do
   memory management either. Personnally, I think you can say
   that Windows possesses OS characteristics but it isn't a true
   OS. I don't particularly like it when MS makes that claim.

   On the other hand, Windows V4.0, (a.k.a. Chicago) will be a
   complete OS.