Conference 7.286::digital

It's not much comfort, but I used to work for an international bank that
used to occasionally lose a whole *country's* file.

    
    human error.
    
    They really should let a computer do it all.
    
    
    

    
    Tell 'em you were hired in 1963.  If it comes to it, you'll
    get a better TFSO package.
    

yep, got a call, requesting me to re-fill out the forms. 

Sigh... I was honest.

Oh well, I can sleep at night....  :-)

Not much help but I believe everyone based at The Crescent (UCG) at the 
time of the fire (March 6th 1990) saw their records go up in smoke.

Applications forms were distributed but I can't remember if I ever 
bothered...

Join date can be figured from pension and salary records here in the UK.

Dave.

	They don't go through all the paper records to find out who has a
	5/10/15 year "do" (or no do now!) do they.

	Surley this is held electronically.

	Heather

Indeed, there's a "profile" which I reckon drives the important stuff (like
whether you get paid, how much, pension plan...). What I'm concerned about are
some 'anecdotal' stuff relative to how I came to my current position... This 
wouldn't be online unless it were scanned in... and they're not THAT advanced.

Now, losing a complete country... (.-n) this is a really bad idea :-) 

----------

           <<< Note 2590.6 by SUBURB::THOMASH "The Devon Dumpling" >>>


	They don't go through all the paper records to find out who has a
	5/10/15 year "do" (or no do now!) do they.

	Surley this is held electronically.

	Heather

    Warning to everyone -- go to PErsonnel and ask for a copy of your
    Personnel file.  Always, always keep a copy of your review for your own
    reference.  Never trust the system to take care of your paperwork.

    .8 makes a good point.  I went to see my file about 2 years ago, and
    for all practical purposes, it was empty.  Fortunatly (?) in this area,
    your file follows you, and is kept by your current manager. I believe
    this goes against corporate policy, but...?
    
    Mark

    
    
    	I did that just recenty. 
    
    	A few years ago I received a nice letter and a cash reward. A copy 
    	of the letter was to be placed in my personnell record. There were 
    	other "attaboys" and so forth that I thought also would be there. 
    	But my PSA said they'd gone through and threw all that kind of
    	stuff away. I wish they'd had notified me before trashing it just
    	to make sure I had copies of everything...
    
    						Mike
    						----  

    
    Re: .10
    
    >	A few years ago I received a nice letter and a cash reward. A copy 
    >	of the letter was to be placed in my personnell record. There were 
    >	other "attaboys" and so forth that I thought also would be there. 
    >	But my PSA said they'd gone through and threw all that kind of
    >	stuff away. I wish they'd had notified me before trashing it just
    >	to make sure I had copies of everything...
    
    I never cease to be amazed at what people will do.  A person gets 
    a letter of commendation, etc. to be included in the permanent
    record and personnel goes through and *throws them away*!  THROWS
    THEM AWAY!  
    
    Is it any wonder what a mess we are in when we do things like this?
    
    Steve
    
    

    I also had this experience. I was told that they wanted to make
    all peoples folders uniform!!!!!! Luckily, I saved copies of
    the favorable memos that had been in the folder.

I hate to find myself siding with Personnel, but, at least the way that they 
store the records today (in your basic, locked 4-high filing cabinet), a dozen
years of bi-annual reviews, each 3/16" thick (you get a thoroughly documented
review twice a year, right :-) would make for a rather unmanagable folder in
short order. Some paring would need to be done. This doesn't excuse, in my 
opinion, getting rid of a half dozen sheets of paper representing a career's
"attapersons".

Of course, a forward thinking organization would _at least_ microfiche the 
things...

More food for thought - does the Personnel Rep or PSA make qualitative,
chronological, or "thickness" decisions on what to keep? Let's say I generally
walk on water, but screwed up in my Digital youth (only one of these two
scenarios has any resemblance to reality, BTW). Would someone 'parsing' my
records say "Oh, 26 attaboys - let's keep two. Three 'naughtyboys'? Oh - we
should hold on to these!"? 

-s
---------------
                     <<< Note 2590.12 by NHASAD::AUSTIN >>>
                        -< I had the same experience! >-

    I also had this experience. I was told that they wanted to make
    all peoples folders uniform!!!!!! Luckily, I saved copies of
    the favorable memos that had been in the folder.

    re .10
    
    	I wonder if they get rid of the "auh-shots" as well? In the
    interest of making all the folders look alike of course. :^)
    
    I checked mine lately and only the bear bones where left. I did,
    however, discover a PA that hade been "downgraded" after I signed it.
    It was  years ago and the manager, and his manager, are long gone
    with TSFO. But it was rather disturbing.
    
    	I told the nice secretary (we call her mom becouse she has been
    everything from our dispatcher to lagistics and has always kept us
    out of trouble) that I would be back to copy my record. She said that
    was A-OK and that anytime was fine. I felt so good about her that I
    kind of forgot the whole thing. Maybe I'll look into it again.
    
    
    
    jim
    

It's amazing that these records are stored in folders in a file cabinet.  Why
don't we scan and electronically store all items that go into someone's
personnel folder upon receipt, or at least before throwing items away?  Not
having these items stored electronically seems a bit dated.  If the physical
folder is destroyed there is a backup available.

Paul

    having the technology does not justify using it!  What cost and benefit
    would there be?  Imagine if we had scanned these things into DECwrite
    documents a couple years ago.  What would be the cost of converting
    these documents to the "next new thing" that comes along?
    
    Mark

re .16

Mark,

One benefit would be that the important documents that are now missing from
people's personnel folders would be available.  Perhaps the stories in this note
are the exception rather than the rule and the cost would not be justified.

Your point about converting to new formats is well taken.  However, those who
have need for storing images or OCRd documents do not worry unduly about the
"next new thing" when buying such applications today.

But I suppose if management of a physical folder is mismanaged, so can its
online storage.

Paul

    
    If they have to clean house from time to time, why not simply
    invite the employee to take reponsibility for keeping anything
    they might be inclined to trash.  It gives us the option and
    saves them the problem of the costly process of keeping everything.
    
    Steve
    

    re. .18
    
    We did that just here (out West) recently when the files were to be
    centrally located vs. at each site.
    
    Employees were offered the options to scan their files and/or get hard
    copies of all papers therein.
    
    re. 19
    
    Of course, we do UNIX out here, so wadda ya expect from non-Open
    VMSers. :-) :-) :-)
    

I know for a fact that when you are TFSOed that your folder is scanned and stored on
optical disk.  The same organization is also a service bureau that does bulk
scanning for customers who buy imaging systems from Digital.

	Dave Brunell

    If they've trashed the history how do they write you a reasonable
    reference for when you get TSFOed?
    
    In fact, with some of the experiences in this string how do they know
    how long you've been with the company?
    
    Nick

>    If they've trashed the history how do they write you a reasonable
>    reference for when you get TSFOed?
    
    They don't. They just report that you did work for Digital and what
    dates you worked here. I think that's policy not to say more or less.
    
    			Alfred

>>    If they've trashed the history how do they write you a reasonable
>>    reference for when you get TSFOed?
    
>    They don't. They just report that you did work for Digital and what
>    dates you worked here. I think that's policy not to say more or less.
                                           ^^^^^^

Not only Policy it the LAW.

>Not only Policy it the LAW.

I very much doubt it.  The whole point of taking up "references" is to
get some information about how good you were at a previous job, and so forth.

Which law prevents that?

    >>Not only Policy it the LAW.
    
    No -- it's a law, in a country - the USA perhaps?
               ^      ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    If I get the package in the UK then I will want a full reference, or an
    explanatory letter that they've lost my records.
    
    Trying to get another job in the UK without a reference is __difficult__.
    
    Nick

    I was given 'the package' from a UK company some six years ago.  When
    I asked about a reference all they would give me was a statement that
    Mr. Winwood had worked for the company for x years and reported to
    the Sales manager.  About 3 lines from memory.  I objected but was
    told this was company policy and common practice in industry.  I then
    managed to get my old boss to give me a private ref. which was fine.
    
    I don't think Companies want to open up any opinions which could be
    used against them should questions be asked so they keep strictly to
    the incontrovertable facts.
    
    Calvin
    

Nick,
	it is my understanding that the policy of not giving written references
is corporate wide and thus also applies to the UK. Local management practice 
may vary, of course.

Dave.

	The reason for the policy (and it's a policy, not a law) is that
	companies have been sued because they made statements in references
	that hurt the former employee's chances of getting a position, and
	were not quantifiable facts. It's part of the litigious culture of
	the U.S., and possibly of other countries as well. So, if a Digital
	manager gave a reference saying that "XXX is not a very hard
	worker," then Digital could get sued and lose lots of money.

	As a result, companies are scared to give any information other than
	the basic dates of employment, because just about anything can be
	grounds for a lawsuit, especially for somebody who has a lawyer
	working on a contingency fee. 

	Roy

re .29

Sure, that's why DEC doesn't give real references.  I was just wondering 
about the claim that it is against the (US) law to give references
which say more than "yup, he worked for us".   I don't believe
that to be the case.

    re .28

    Company's have also been sued by an employees new company.  They were
    sued for giving a good referral and then the employee not performing up
    to it. 

They found my folder Tuesday, somewhere in MSO...