Conference 7.286::digital

    Well, it doesn't quite fit into your scale, but one data point I have:
    
    I was told by my telecom person that a SDN call from out of the office
    (the "magic" 800#) actually costs less over-all than the equivalent 
    DTN call via a local office. That is, it is cheaper to use the 800#
    than to call the local office and be connected to a DTN.
    
    I don't know if this relationship is site dependant or not.
    
    Dave

    I think this issue has already been discussed in BTOVT::TELEPHONES.
    KP7 or SELECT to add it to your notebook.
    
    Bob

    (5) Certain locales in the GMA (and possibly elsewhere, but I don't
    know for sure) allow access points to the DTN that are open for normal
    dialin during non-business hours.  If one of these access numbers is
    within a local call from your modem's current location, you can get to
    your home system's modem cluster over the DTN for the cost of a local
    call.  (This is my normal method of access from home; all *I* pay is
    the monthly bill for the telecommuting phone, which is local charges
    only.)  I don't know what the true costs are here, either; I never see
    what it costs to get the data across the DTN.
    
    And in re -.1, thanks for the pointer, Bob.  I'll check there, but as 
    long as I've raised the question in this far more public forum, perhaps 
    we can post HERE whatever definitive answers there are, in the interest 
    of having the larger readership aware of the potential savings...  if
    any... :-)      
                                   Dan

    
    re.0
    
    In regard to the ATT credit card charges, I'm not sure what you mean 
    by invisible.  I am billed directly by ATT and I have to submit an
    expense voucher for reimbursement.  BTW, I think the ATT credit card
    rates are very good.
    
    -pat

    re .4 -- I guess we do it differently in this part of the Empire.  For
    whatever reason, I never see any charges resulting from my use of the
    Corp card that has been vouchsafed to me.  I therefore guard it MOST
    carefully and NEVER use it for non-business needs.
    
    Glad to hear the rates are very good -- that means that it's economical
    to use for voice comms in comparison with other carriers/charge
    environments.  Whether they're good enough to justify use over WATN, I
    seriously doubt.  My IM&T Manager told me this AM that his rough idea
    is that WATN charges are 1% of SDN charges, but this is highly
    unofficial...  Still "Searching for Mr. GoodData..."
    

    I happen to be just outside the Local Area of the office, so must dial
    "1" (or "0") to get there, but the trusty Scholar (NOT) will eat enough
    digits to turn off call waiting, 0+###-####, wait n seconds, and burst
    out the card number. the peecee works swell too.
    
    I haven't (yet) seen or heard of any charges, they are supposed to go to
    finance_land somewhere, but we were told that the AT&T rates were very
    "competitive" due to deep corporate discounts.
    
    .mike.

    Re .several
    
    Regarding those phone credit cards and where the charges go. Your cost
    center manager gets a report every month detailing the use of the
    credit cards in that cost center. It lists each and every call just
    like your home phone bill. I know I see ours every month.
    
    Dave

    For those who don't read TELEPHONES...
    
    This is NOT a simple question.  I am involved in these networks, and
    have done some of the econometrics, especially for DTN.
    
    I'm not sure anyone really knows WATN prices.  It's something like
    3-5c/minute, depending on how deep our BT Tymnet discount is.  BTW
    Tymnet is NOT a BBN spinoff; their arch-rival, Telenet (now part of
    Sprint), was a BBN spinoff.  I was at BBN and attended the party when
    they celebrated the sale of it to GTE.  Tymnet is now part of British
    Telecom.
    
    SDN costs a bit more than that for interstate calls.  It varies, but is
    typically in the 7-12c/minute range, depending on which sites are
    calling which sites.  From a pay phone, figure 11-16c/minute.  That's
    much cheaper than retail, but more than WATN.  As a general rule,
    though, INTRAstate SDN costs more than INTERstate!  Within Mass., for
    instance, ordinary business toll is cheaper, and there are lots of
    cheaper residential calling plans.
    
    Hotel surcharges, of course, make travelers' arrangements even
    costlier.  I use WATN from hotel rooms when I'm away from GMA.
    I use ISDN from home, but that's another story...
       fred (past bedtime playing with his ISDN at 64 kbps)

    That's the wonderful thing about noting in a general-interest, widely-
    read file -- there's always SOMEone out there with the specialized
    knowledge, and the opportunity to share it.  Much appreciated.
    
    I guess I was misinformed by the guy who got me on WATN as to its
    TELENET origins.  The user interface is rather like I remember it, at
    least in the early days of the ARPAnet.
    
    If anyone has any more data or opinion to offer, I'm still very
    interested.  FYI, here's my as-yet-unanswered query in TELEPHONES.
             <<< BTOVT::ALTSYS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]TELEPHONES.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Telephones >-
================================================================================
Note 240.0*   Pls look @ HUMANE::DIGITAL note 2231.* WATN vs SDN $    No replies
RDVAX::KALIKOW "Parody error, please retry"          11 lines  20-NOV-1992 19:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Folks -- I began a discussion of the relative costs of WATN vs SDN
    remote dial-in in the generic "The Way We Work At DIGITAL" notesfile. 
    One of the moderators there pointed me at this conference, but no
    dir/title searches seem relevant.  Could some kind denizen of
    hereabouts point me to the relevant notes here, or send a pointer to an
    info-trove, or post it here?  Thanks!
    
    Dan Kalikow
    Consultant, Engineering Interface Program
    Corporate Research & Architecture
    

When I was in CXO a few months back, I brought along a terminal and a modem.

I called my handy-dandy DECvoice-based dialin information system and got
the local dialin number & password. I dialed in locally and went through
a 'gateway' service to get to another terminal server prompt that allowed
me terminal server access to my 'home' system back in Ohio. Of course, knowing
the service name of the 'gateway' servers is the trick (and having the
Extended LAN network in place).

Call your local IM&T/Telecom bunch to see if you can do somthing similar.

Lee

    We analyzed this very carefully and also the answer to this question is
    I think in the watn notes file. WATN is VERY cheap. Even throufg the
    Tymnet end to end its basically just connect time. It was 3 or 6$/hr,
    I forget which, but it is no more than 6$/hr. Also if you are
    in motel 6 and the tymnet call is local, they don't charge you any
    extra. The company gets a charge for chars, but when we calculated it,
    it was very neligible, under a 1$/hr on the avg.
    
    Tom

    Thanks for the info, btw...
    

    There is another alternative on the horizon.  It is wireless mobile
    data over a service such as RAM Mobile Data.  I have an interest in
    this particular service, so I am asking those of you interested in this
    subject what you see as the worth to you of having a simple, easy to
    connect service that would bypass all the telephone hullabalu.  You
    would have a mobile modem (mobidem) and connect directly to a mobile
    packet data network.  Would you be more apt to use the service?  Would
    you save time?  Do you have a need to be connected to your system at
    locations where getting a telephone connection is difficult?  I am
    encouraging a pilot internally of this service and would appreciate
    your input.  I do not think our typical sales person on the street is
    necessarily the ideal candidate for this as much as our mobile managers
    and delivery people.  Your thoughts???
    
    Thanks,
    
    Closs

    re:.13
    Wireless mobile data is nice if you need it, but the charge is in
    cents/byte, not cents/megabyte...  (well, close to that!)
    
    I checked with the guy in charge yesterday... our WATN rates from
    Tymnet, for remote use (dialing in), are $4/hour peak and $1.25/hour
    off-peak.  Peak is 7AM to 5PM.  I guess they have a lot of spare
    capacity off-peak!  That's a good deal.  The peak rate is still cheaper
    than a toll call.  Between DEC locations, it's different; we don't
    actually pay by the usage but by the size of the private pipe.  It's
    probably cheaper if you calculate it out but that's not trivial.

Re: .12

JETSAM::WATN

Presss <KP7> or <select> to add to your notebook, etc.

I don't have nor did I ask for permission to cross-post the original note.  If
your interested see JETSAM::WATN  note 166.

    To date, my inquiries to WATNFEEDBACK@OGO have gone completely
    unanswered.  This is unacceptable, to say the least.  Anyone having
    information on who the real people are behind this so I can reach them,
    please forward same.
    
    								Tex

	Call theESC hotline at 226-5001.  Pick the option that gets
	you to the WATN line...

	/robin

    I have sent my original inquiries to STOWOA::TALEGHANI, the original
    poster of the "WATN disappears" note (thanks, Paul).  I would suggest
    that others having questions/concerns pursue them also.  If we don't do
    anything besides bitch in DIGITAL, nothing will be resolved.  If the
    "feedback" I receive does not demonstrate to me that I'll be able to
    continue performing my role effectively, efficiently, and profitably
    for Digital, I'll contact Palmer's office, if necessary.
    
    Corson, prepare the barbecue, but don't light the coals yet.  This is
    just the first of what may be many steps.  I pray that I'm totally
    off-base and someone has carefully considered the alternatives for us. 
    I also pray to win the lottery, so take it for what it's worth. :^]
    
    My memo to the poster reads as follows:
    
From:	DPDMAI::EYSTER       "Brent Eyster, dtn: 483.4179, phn: 214.702.4179"  4-OCT-1995 11:26:23.90
To:	STOWOA::TALEGHANI
CC:	EYSTER
Subj:	WATN disappears December 1st

Dear Bardia;

I'm sending this to you because you posted the original note.

>    It is our goal to provide service products that meet the needs of all 
>    of the current user community.  However, recognizing that there may be 
>    certain mission critical legacy applications requiring customized 
>    alternatives, we have set up a special E-Mail account to ensure timely 
>    two-way communications of issues and concerns.  The address is 
>    WATNFEEDBACK@OGO.  The product design team will be conducting a daily 
>    review of any issues as they arise.

I sent mail to WATNFEEDBACK@OGO and, to date, have received no response.  I 
am *extremely* distressed by this for the following reasons:

1 - my group travels constantly, some of us 100% of the time.  We rely on
    WATN.

2 - some members do not *have* a local modem pool.  We are responsible for
    the Western Hemisphere and are not all located in the same geographic
    area.

3 - our local modem pool is, at best, highly undependable.

4 - the costs of dialing up such a pool -vs- WATN appear to be extremely
    high.  I'm at a loss as to how this saves Digital money.

5 - we do not always have dial-up long-distance access from hotels and
    client sites.

    I need to fully understand how the above will be addressed.  In general,
    this announcement has not been received well by the Digital population
    already struggling to do our jobs and ensure Digital's profitability.
    I have yet to see one positive response.

						Brent Eyster	
						EDI Systems Integration

	The ESC Hotline is located in Littleton, Mass at LKG.

	This hotline is the Corporate Telecom network operations
	center (Affectionatly know as the NOC in some circles).  

	Part of there job is network monitoring (both internal
	and external), Corporeate ELF support, Corporate WATN
	support (both new accounts, and problems).

	They definatly can point you to someone in the know over
	this WATN issue.  dtn 226-5001 (508-486-5001 external)
	Its a tree when you call (ie, option 1, 2, 3, and 
	Option 4 (Problems on the WATN network), etc


	/robin

    re: .19
    
    Tex,
        Sending mail to Bardia Taleghani won't help you. He is a software
    consultant in my group, currently based in Singapore. I believe he
    posted it because he normally uses WATN when traveling and will now be
    effected by the change. We received the memo from one of the VPs we
    work for in Asia Pacific. WATNFEEDBACK would be the best place to
    complain I suppose. I have always used my MCI card to dial back to my
    home office, from all over the Asia Pacific area. Until we get SLIP/PPP
    access in Asia Pacific, I imagine I'll continue to do so. Maybe MCI is
    giving Digital a "real good deal".
    
    Debbie
    

    
    I just wanted to go on record saying I also sent mail to WATNFEEDBACK
    and did not receive any response. That was well over a week ago.
    
    Don
    

    re .21: 
    
    Please check 4141.52.  I not only sent mail to Bardi, I phoned 'em in
    desperation.
    
    re .22
    
    Check the same note, Don.  I finally got feedback, but the original
    memo we got was apparently incorrect in about every single statement. 
    We weren't *supposed* to get feedback, apparently, thus the silence.
    
    ALL:
    
    PLEASE send your feedback to WATNFEEDBACK@OGO.  We'll print 'em all out
    and use it for firestarter if this doesn't work out as detailed in
    4141.52.
    
    								Tex

There was a message posted in another conference which seemed to say that
because of the feedback, only the facility-to-facility private WATN links
would be removed.

Dialin to WATN through MCI/TYMNET (which is what most people used) will
continue to be available.

/john

RE: .-1

>There was a message posted in another conference which seemed to say that
>because of the feedback, only the facility-to-facility private WATN links
>would be removed.
>
>Dialin to WATN through MCI/TYMNET (which is what most people used) will
>continue to be available.

I just talked to my local TeleComm support person, and he confirmed this.
We are losing the ability to do a "LAT> CONNECT WATN" from inside a Digital
facility.  We are *not* losing the ability to dial into local telephone
numbers from our homes/hotels/customer sites/etc and get access to the
Digital network.

To me this is excellent news, because I use the latter every day, and didn't
even know the former was an option.  And the work-around is simple anyway:
find some friendly person with a local server, connect to that, and then
SET HOST out.  Or if you have an SWB notebook, reply to the mail they sent
out a few days ago, get yourself an IP address, and use your PCMCIA Ethernet
connector to hook directly into the Enet, and use telnet or whatever.

So for TeleCommuters (aka, the Home Alone program), this is a non-issue IMHO.

-- Ken Moreau