Conference 7.286::digital

    We already do this, sort of.  I have every TK50 I ever received from
    ADS with a distribution on it.  I use them to back up my unit's �VAX
    and my workstation and also to transfer things between the machines. 
    Some people in the unit use them to get stuff out to customer's
    machines.  We used to do the same thing with 2400' reels on another
    machine.  Most of the floppies we used in our Rainbows, Pros and
    DECmates were old VAX and �RSX distribution disks.
    
    tom_p

>	Is there any interest in recycling used magnetic media,
>	that is, Magtapes, TK50Ks or 3.5" floppies internally?

	I don't know about the tapes but I bet we have a lot of employees
	who'd buy the extra 3.5" floppies for use with home PCs. I suspect
	that running them through a quick eracing would take care of any
	security concerns. The company could probably give employees a real
	bargin and still recover most if not all of the origional media cost.

	One wouldn't want to sell used media to external customers for a lot
	of reasons (quality control, re-labeling, etc) but for employees it
	might be ok. I'd buy some.

	Suggest the idea through DELTA.

			Alfred

    Considering the perennial scarcity of TK50s and 70s in the field, I
    expect if you made the availability of these items known, and allowed
    ordering through DIAL, you could get rids of large numbers.
    
    9-track tapes are much less interesting, but 3.5" floppies could, as
    noted, find an enthusiastic employee purchase marjet.
    
    \dave

    I made the suggestion to DELTA as I have boxes of tapes that only take
    up room.  I assumed it was studied, but I don't think anything came of
    it.  I was never given any indication of the final disposition of the
    suggestion.  This was right after DELTA started, so I assume nothing
    was put into place.
    
    The good news is that I don't get anything on mag tape anymore, so the
    boxes aren't filling up.  I even use one occaisionly to send a customer
    some data.  I figure at the rate I am going, I have enough tapes to
    last until 2010.

    Just for sizing the problem, we are talking about some
    
    	20,000 TK50Ks
    	90,000 MagTapes
    	Uncounted floppies
    					mwr

    Our organization regularly makes tapes for third parties.  Send me mail
    and perhaps we can take some of these off your hands.
    
    	Dave Brunell
    	Independent Software Vendor Group

Last time we backed up our district DS5000, we had to scrounge TK50s
from the four corners of the earth.  We would be GLAD to take some off your
hands! 
Please send me mail.

Kevin

    Thanks for the response so far.  I have forwarded this string and
    MAIL> recieved on the subject to the person who has the media.
    It would seem there may be some merit in pursuing this.  Of course,
    the media will have to be de-labeled, degaussed & shipped, and
    the cost of shipping will have to be less than local acquisition
    of media to be practical.  Please continue to respond.  mwr

A brief history of my personal experiences with 1/2" magtape over the past 15
years in S/W Eng. -

1977-1981 - 
  Magtape was almost as valuable as hard disks. A lot of what we used as
  "scratch media" were tapes we'd gotten from customers. DEC-issue
  certified tapes were used only rarely. Tapes were only discarded if
  they were physically damaged, fell on the floor, etc.

1981-1987 - 
  We had a scratch media store available for tapes to be used for
  "incidentals", project use, or basically anything not being submitted to
  the SDC. "Used once" DEC-issue tapes (e.g. old kits) were used to make
  Field test (customer) kits. New DEC-issue certified tapes were used for
  anything being submitted to the SDC.

1987-present -
  No scratch media is generally available unless you've saved it as such
  yourself. If you don't have any "scratch", you get new DEC-issue certified
  media for any purpose. Most media is discarded after any use. The ZKO
  labs all have D-containers which accumulate viable media for destruction
  on a regular basis.

-Jack

>The ZKO labs all have D-containers which accumulate viable media for
>destruction on a regular basis.

In ZK2-3 alone, we're talking a few cubic yards of TK50's, DECtape-II's, 8",
5.25", 9-track (all lengths), various disk packs & cassettes - just about
anything from the past decade but 3.5" floppy and 4mm tape.
				/AHM

    We in the Ayr Technology Group would be very grateful for some free
    3.5" floppies.
    
    If possible could you send me the E net node of person who has such
    spare media. 
    
    Robin Somerville
    ARRAN::RSOMERVILLE
    DTN 823 3277
    
    Is it really Christmas time?  :^)

    You might want to try using the Property Disposition Center.
    DOOVAX::PDCSTORE
    DTN 267-2225
        267-2315
    
    It can also be found in VTX     VTX PDCSTORE
    
    The PDC Store sells used equipment/tools/supplies/etc. to DEC
    Employees.

    We can use some tk50's in our group as well...
    
    If you can ship us 100 tk50's that would be great.
    
      send to:
    
      MR02 - LA data center
       att:Bill Colleton
    
     Thanks.

    
    We're interested in some 3�" disks. Quantity depends on the cost.
    
    Carl Abert
    WFO IM&T
    242-2521

	We order TK50's from DECdirect for use in the field all the time
	(at a very high price...)

	We could easily use 100-200 TK50's and dozens/hundreds of 3.5" floppies.

	Is there something we can do to get them?

	Thanks..
		--chas hicks
		  OMO

    This note seems to have touched a nerve (and a real need).  I wonder if
    any of the DELTA who read this note could tell us why the original
    suggestion was never pursued and, perhaps, how they intent to help with
    implementing the plan at this point?
    
    Chet

       Re:-1 It certainly did strike a nerve. Ironically there're probably 
    hundreds of depts. that throw away stuff that other groups are paying
    full price for. I hope the storage media mentioned in re:0 isn't just the 
    tip of an iceberg of potential cost savings for DEC.
    
            Bob

    The media in question is currently being held at PDC pending 
    disposition, which will be an incinerator unless an alternative
    is found.  I entered this note to help those folks asses the internal
    'market', if any, for this material.  Here at the SSB, we only recycle
    media which has not left our control (out-of-rev-on-shelf), as the
    small savings we might realize could be overshadowed by any risk of
    production or customer problems.  I believe the note has served its'
    purpose, and i conclude, and will pass on, the following;
    
    	Magtapes:  No large internal use for this material.
    	TK50K:     Make available internally for some reasonable price.
    	3.5" RX    Make avail. internally & thru PDC store.
    
    There is still the matter of degaussing, delabeling, inspecting,
    distributing the material, and setting a reasonable price.
    Thanks for the replies and the mail...mwr
    

> There is still the matter of degaussing, delabeling, inspecting,
>   distributing the material, and setting a reasonable price.

Given you were going to burn it, which presumably costs money,
what's wrong with simply piling it all in a tub and putting
a notice on it saying "come and get it, it's free".  Don't
delabel it, don't degauss it.   It's DEC software and this
is DEC, so you're not giving anything away (it's obsolete anyway,
right?).   Your bank balance is now zero instead of negative,
so you're ahead, anyway.
    

	I agree with .19.  We use whatever tapes we can get our hands on
	now.  We end up using old product distribution tapes now, write
	over them and re-label them for our own use.

	If you end up pooring additional manpower into this "surplus"
	to to enable us to use it then I question it's overall value.

	(Although it might save some souls job???!)

	Why not just charge $x per 100 tapes for handling/shipping and let us
	get at them.  If you have thousands, bundle them in quantities of 50
	or a hundred.  Simple, easy and cheap.  One price, almost no handling.

	Maybe even make a statement to the effect that we can expect only
	80% of them to be useable, or something like that.  (No deposit, No
	Return)

	Make sure everyone knows that they are for internal use only, not
	to be re-sold, etc.  

	--chas

	

	

I strongly agree.
Set whatever policies need to be set surrounding the use of the media:
* You must de-label it
* You must de-gauss before it goes outside Digital's control 
* etc.

Then just make the tapes available for the cost of boxing, shipping, and
handling.

This is all internal to Digital.  It should be no different than us
re-using a distribution tape for backups (which we do all the time, since
that's about the only way to get tapes around here...)

Why take on the additional expense if there is not a clear need to do so?

Is there a liability issue that we are missing?

Kevin

    There are methods in place for making "semi-useless" (i.e., not free)
    and "useless" (free. except maybe for shipping charges) material
    available to the rest of the corporation.
    
    At least, I remember one of the ordering gurus at DEC src once
    mentioning this to me when I was looking at automating their property
    info.  It probably gets put on some VTX list, but my memory has dimmed.
    
    I can believe that the "original" owners of the magtapes would be
    responsible for full erasure before it goes out of their hands, since
    that eliminates the possibility of a slipup further down the line.
                                                  

    Yes, there are liability and copyright issues which require degaussing
    media and strongly suggest delabeling.  No, the employee who sent it
    to the disposal center is not required to degauss it, probably does
    not have the means, and such a policy would be impossible to enforce.
    Some of the tapes could be backups of files which may be sensitive,
    some may be 3rd party software, not DECs, and some may be proprietary
    and reasonable steps must be take to insure copyright.  Also, magnetic
    media is less prone to a host of overwrite and file termination
    problems i will not boar you with reciting, and is more suitable for
    reuse on unknown machines if degaussed before dispersion.
    
    trust me   ...   8^)    mwr

>>  <<< Note 2089.23 by WMOIS::RAINVILLE "Tape engineers get reel wound up!" >>>
>>    trust me   ...   8^)    mwr

To do what?

-steve-

We could use about 300 3� inch floppies.

Larry Wakeman
SZO
455 Market St. 7th Floor
San Francisco, CA. 94105

Interoffice is ok.  We do cut a lot of floppies for customers and 
some TK50s, though we just cleaned up our library and have an
ample supply of TKs.

Who do we have to memo in order to "save Digital money" by reducing what we
internally need to order and reuse what we've paid for already??

In times like now, burning tapes makes zero sense.  Internal usage by any
division is still internal usage.

-Don
(who needs some old tapes to go with his old VS II assembled from parts)

    
    It's even worse than 'just' burning, we pay big bucks to dispose of not
    only media but, many items that can be yanked out of the waste stream.
    
    It's a major effort to get folks attention to the costs involved but
    the dollars really add up. 
    
    Besides your normal, wage type activity, pick an area and a product and
    make a difference in the overall structure.
                                                                     
    "reduce, reuse, recycle" and my particular "hobby" - redirection.
    
    Reduction is the greatest cost savings and least overhead. (internal)
    Reuse is the solution to consumption gone unchecked.  (internal)        
    Recycling has both cost and social responsibilty implications.
    (internal/external)
    Redirection of the waste stream is the last chance for savings.
    (external - but, not disposal)
    
    Plenty of room for lots of players and real impact.
    
    John B.

  A few replies back, someone asked why the idea of recycling media apparently
didn't go anywhere when it was submitted to Delta, but posting it in this file
has generated lots of interest.
  Delta has been available company-wide for about two years, and this idea was
submitted to Delta shortly after it started. Two years ago, we were just be-
ginning to think about waste reduction, and most people thought it was too much
trouble to do it. Today, waste reduction is being driven from the top (Bob Pal-
mer) and at several other levels. The PDC, which formerly threw away millions
of dollars worth of stuff, is seriously trying to reduce waste, and tighter re-
strictions on purchasing have created an internal "market" for second-hand
materials. One more change is that DIAL, which was formerly almost useless as
a means of giving away used materials such as media, is now on VTX and is much
more effective. So now it's worth the trouble for people who have stockpiles of
used materials such as media to find "takers" instead of destroying the stuff
or just letting it sit there.
  A few years ago I thought I would save the company some money and use a sec-
ond-hand mag tape instead of a new one. I spent half a day trying to use it be-
fore I figured out that it's very difficult to overwrite a mag tape that was 
previously recorded on an incompatible system. At that time we didn't have the
use of a bulk eraser (degausser). Degaussing is definitely right thing to do
when reusing old tapes.

    ref -ALL.  
    
    I submitted this the day I first received word of DELTA.  I had told off
    all the magtapes, TK50's, and all to the DELTA group.  After a lengthy
    wait I received mail and a follow-up on the phone from someone in
    DELTA.
    
    Basically what they said, that to implement this into Digital, erasing,
    distribution, part #'s, etc... that this would be too costly.  The
    return phone call to see if I was satisfied, was no but what can I do! 
    I am sure with all the media laying around, we could ship it all to a
    central repository with a BIG magnetnetic filed and ZAP!  Now
    redistribute!!  
    
    I will look for my response from DELTA on this issue and post it here
    if I find it!
    
    Later,
    
    Glenn                                             

    Hmm.  How come it has to be erased and needs a part number?  Sounds to
    me like the classic situation where it is ass-u-med that the overhead
    is necessary to make the project successful.  Aren't there situations
    where nobody cares about whether the media is erased?  Is it really
    necessary to have part numbers assigned?  Is it really necessary to
    have ANY involvement from third parties?  Why can't, for example, a
    special note file be created where folks can self-manage used media
    transactions on a voluntary basis?
    
    Steve

    I find it interesting that worries arise about sending old, outdated
    software media for internal use without 'erasure'... meanwhile, any
    of our customers can purchase from DEC a set CDroms with nearly all
    of our VMS or Ultrix software offerings on them.
    
    Lee

    From DELTA - (sorry to be so late - I was on vacation)
    
    re.4  Steve Bold - your idea was responded within a week back in 1990.
    We tried to contact you for followup and got no respnse.  I will
    re-send the response to you.
    
    re . 4 and .29 Hedrick -  both responses say approximately the same
    thing and that is that the PDC has control over these issues and should
    be the point of contact for folks who have media that can be
    re-used/recycled.
    
    I would like to put forth an idea - DELTA would be more than happy to
    sponsor a "swap shop" conference to put people who have BUSINESS
    oriented media etc they would like to get rid of that others would
    be willing to take AS IS.  What do you think??   

    re: .32
    
    YES! DO IT!
    
    I was going to offer to host such a conference, but we are already
    having trouble stuffing 10 lbs of stuff into a 5 lb bag as it is.
    
    Thanks for the offer.
    
    Bob

     <<< TURRIS::TURRIS$DUA18:[NOTES$LIBRARY]EASYNET_CONFERENCES.NOTE;2 >>>
                       -< EasyNet Conference Directory >-
================================================================================
Note 3704.0*              Announcing the DELTA SWAPSHOP               No replies
CAPNET::CROWTHER "Maxine 276-8226"                   21 lines  18-SEP-1992 13:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DELTA is proud to sponsor a new notesfile in support of Employee
    Involvement.

    Welcome to the SWAP SHOP.  The purpose of this conference is give
    Digital employees the ability to list excess expendable product that
    others in the company may need.  This conference does NOT take the
    place of either the DIAL process or the Property Disposition Center
    process.  This conference is NOT for personal items or use or for 
    profit.
    
    So if you have 100 magtapes that you don't need, list them here!
    
    Those 4000 slash folders in mint green that you have left over
    from your last really big meeting - list them here!

    Want 50 spiral binders - ask here! 
    
    This conference is really intended as a bulletin board - the deals you
    make are your own responsiblity!

    Use KP7 or ADD ENTRY CAPNET::DELTA_SWAPSHOP to add this entry.

    
    
    Here at Customer Support Center in Colorado Springs, we send out
    a lot of patches to customers.  We can use a lot of tapes.  Especially
    the tk50 and tk70's.  Contact Lyvonne Simpkins at DTN 592-5459,
    CSC32::VON, Mail Stop CX03-2/J3.
    
    

     <<< Note 2089.35 by CSC32::HADDOCK "Don't Tell My Achy-Breaky Back" >>>
                          -< NEED TAPES FOR PATCHES >-

    
    
SEE NOTE 2089.34!!