Conference 7.286::digital

    There was an item in the VOGON news about Digital opening in the USSR. 
    There will be at least three offices, headquarters will be in Moscow,
    an office in St. ?, and an office in Kiev.
    
    I've read articles that Digital technology is the best known in the
    Eastern Bloc countries because it is better known than our competitors.
    Whether they are using clones, or illegally obtained equipment is up
    for debate.

    Re .1 . The USSR no longer exists .... But don't spoil things by
    telling anyone ..
    m
    

    re .2  The USSR no longer exists.
    
    At the moment of writing the coffin lid has not been finally nailed
    down.  ( Gorby is still there ) We therefore have a window of 
    opportunity........
    
    
    
    ...... to be the last company into the Soviet market ! ( already
    achieved in numerous other markets ) 8-)

    Yup it looks like Gorby is about to get rightsized, as we at Digital so
    quaintly phrase it.

    Jamie.

    	It's too bad they don't have any money, but maybe we could work out
    an exchange program...Vodka for VAX.

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 2472               Friday 13-Dec-1991            Circulation :  8159 

VNS COMPUTER NEWS:                            [Tracy Talcott, VNS Computer Desk]
==================                            [Nashua, NH, USA                 ]

 Digital - Announces plans to enter Russia, Ukraine, and neighboring republics
	{Livewire, Worldwide News, 12-Dec-91}
   Digital today announced plans for its entry into Russia, Ukraine, and other 
 neighboring republics. Plans include sales and service offices and an
 education center.  
   In these new markets Digital will market, sell and service a wide range of 
 products, in full compliance with all applicable export laws. Contracts have 
 already been signed with several new customers for projects in the automotive,
 aviation, hotel, finance, and natural resources areas. Digital has identified
 nearly 50 projects for which proposals are under consideration. 
   Digital also announced the signing of an agreement with the Academy of
 National Economy to open a Digital Education Center in Moscow. The center, 
 which will open in early 1992, will feature visiting Digital lecturers from 
 various countries and will house a demonstration center. The Academy of 
 National Economy is Russia's leading training center for senior managers, 
 offering courses on business, technical, and economic subjects to over 3,000 
 people per year.  
   Digital's Russian headquarters are in Moscow, with an additional office to
 be opened soon in St. Petersburg. An office in Kiev, Ukraine, will open early 
 next year. Digital has already begun hiring local employees and will continue
 to build a staff specializing in sales, marketing, service, and
 administration.  
   The announcement is the latest in a series of Digital investments over the 
 past two years toward establishing a lasting presence in the emerging markets 
 of Central and Eastern Europe. This process began in the spring of 1990, with
 the formation of Digital Hungary and a multifaceted strategy to address the 
 opportunities created by the unification of Germany. In June 1991, Digital 
 Czechoslovakia opened its doors as a wholly owned subsidiary. In October 1991,
 Digital officially announced a subsidiary in Poland. Digital has already hired
 over 200 local citizens to work in these new Central and Eastern European
 ventures. Those local employees are backed up by over 50 people in Western
 Europe.
   Peter Sipos has been appointed Digital's general manager responsible for the
 republics. He has been working to establish Digital's entry into these markets
 for the past 10 months.  
   "Digital has taken a long-term view, and we intend to invest accordingly as
 we build our new organization," said Peter. "During our preparation stages, we 
 participated in the COMTEK exhibition in Moscow last April, and experienced an
 extremely high level of interest from potential customers, government
 officials, and the news media. With combined population of 280 million people,
 we believe substantial opportunities will exist in these republics for Digital
 over time."
   "There is tremendous technical talent in many different areas," continued 
 Peter. "In particular, we are seriously considering ways to utilize the
 significant software development capabilities to work on projects in areas
 such as telecom, banking and finance, manufacturing, aviation, energy, health
 care, education, and public administration." 
    
<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 2472      Friday 13-Dec-1991   <><><><><><><><>

    The economy(s) are a mess.  The embrionic governments are frail and 
    unsteady.  Many (if not most) of the people are hungry, cold and live in 
    almost constant apprehension and fear. 
    
    And the first thing we can think of is how we can make a buck off the
    situation.  Capitalism.  
    
    How's about sending them some food so our future customers won't starve
    to death this winter.  FINALLY the Bush administration is moving on
    this. Just hope it's not too late.
    
      

    
    Yes, the economies are a mess. They will be for a long time. But as
    they begin to REBUILD their economy it would be to DEC's advantage to
    be a part of that rebuilding. It would also be to DEC'S disadvantage to
    NOT be a part of that. When things start to settle down and those
    countries begin to update their communications and information
    infrastructures Digital would be STUPID not to be there. It could be
    the biggest growth oppurtunity since the United States. The profit
    motive is definitely there. But think of how our systems can help them
    to rebuild their countries and maybe even help them (very indirectly)
    feed those hungry people.
    
    Steve B.
    

>>    motive is definitely there. But think of how our systems can help them
>>    to rebuild their countries and maybe even help them (very indirectly)
>>    feed those hungry people.
    
    
    Agreed! but the functional verb here is "help" which most often means
    "giving" without a guarantee of reciprocation.  "Giving" things away,
    especially without assurance of reciprocation, is sometimes thought of
    as a high risk venture, maybe too high.  I just hope we (western
    industry in general) can rise above that and help out for reasons 
    more humane reasons.  And if there's an economic reciprocation in the
    future, then fine.
    
    

    In 1987 I got to know a visiting Bulgarian MD with an interest in
    computers.. he said that PDP-11's were very prized behind the (then)
    Iron Curtain.  There was even a small factory (didn't say where) that
    built PDP boards.  He knew about VAXes but hadn't seen any, or even
    used a 32bit machine.  Most systems in use in the USSR at the time were
    8-bit Bulgarian-made PC clones.
    
    He about lost it when I showed him my all-digital home recording
    studio.  ;-)
    
    karl

There's an old saying - (close as I remember)

	"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.
         Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life."

The Slovic Republics have wanted to enter the 'free/open market' for 
quite some time. Now they have. We need to *help* them develop modern 
industrial practices so they can *BUY* our products, not become 
dependant on good 'ol U.S. Welfare to survive. 

If we've got money to *HELP* people, we should spend it on Americans, 
our homeless, and our unemployed. If there's any philanthropic money 
left after that, then I'd want to subsidize the price of Moscow Big Mac's 
and Pepsi so that more Slovics could become consumers/capitalists.

Soviet have NO money and NO system to support the high tech. world. They are poor 
than China. Are we making BIG money with China yet? Before we can make money, we
will spend lots money first. And it is a LONG shot...
-H.

	It is well known that the SU is short of hard currency. It is, (see
	.13) very tempting to say "let's wait until they have money before
	we do business with them." That's the short term, look to this quarter
	and the fast buck mentality that has gotten so many US and other
	companies in long term trouble. If you assume that sooner or later
	the SU will be a big and profitable market you would have to be foolish
	to let others go in, lose some money up front, and gain big market
	share now. Later when the funds are their and the market is profitable
	the cost of entry will be high. The other companies will be entrenched
	and taking back market will be much much harder. The long term view
	saws that *now* is the time to build. If we spend lose some money of
	a small market now we may make up for it big time when it's a big
	market.

			Alfred

    Don't forget that we have a pretty good installed base because 
    of all the black market VAXs which found their way into the Soviet
    Union.  Actually, I've heard that we currently have the largest market
    share of any vendor!
    
    If this is true (and it certainly seems feasible) we have a tremendous
    competitive advantage.  Let's not mess this one up.  The potential
    seems enormous.
    
    Chet

    So why don't we "certify" all those VAX-clones in the ex-USSR for some
    level of software support, and sell licences (cheaply!).  It would create
    an instant "Open Systems" market for VMS and ULTRIX.
    
    The Soviet Disunion may be bankrupt, but they are rich in natural
    resources, and a surprising variety of technical skills.  A trading
    subsidiary that can handle barter payments could be very profitable and
    benefit everyone involved.

    The (former) ussr market is potentially the world's largest source
    of petroleum, coal and iron.  Most of the natural resources remain
    undeveloped because distribution (transportation and communication)
    is so rudimentary.  Look for some VERY large multinationals, like
    Bechtel, to move into the vacuum and build infrastructure in return
    for a piece of the action in the future.  It will take another two
    winters to get food and fuel distribution up to subsistence levels.
    That will be their first experience with free market operations.
    About 5 years to get technical education and basic industrial 
    operations (steel, machinery, oil, gas, shipbuilding) cranked up
    to where they can deliver product for export.  Then watch out.
    
    OPEC will be wiped out by cheap supplies of petrol from a massive
    producer with low wages desperate to build markets.  As this new
    3rd world nation smelts and buys steel machinery that can withstand
    Siberian environments, they will be able to dominate raw material
    supplies in copper, zinc, uranium and strategic metals.  As the
    currency from these sales rolls in, early investors and suppliers
    will benefit greatly.
    
    The only wild card left is the military.  If that organization can
    be redirected to help build the transportation system...
    There will be some civil wars and some local problems with the
    military.  Within 2 years, that will die down as capitalism takes
    it's natural course...mwr

    
    re: 15
    
    Plus all the "vaxes" that were reverse-engineered.  From what I have
    heard the "former" eastern bloc has a very real affection for the Vax.
    Despite the fact that they are dirt poor, there does seem to be a real
    opportunity here.   
    
    		Bob   

    
    The biggest problem of the Soviet Union nowadays is that they must
    learn to make their own decisions, that's people I mean.
    
    There has been many years central management of the communist party
    which have done all the decisions for everybody, When this problem has
    found its answer all the other problems will be solved afterwards.
    
    Nobody knows how soon this will happen, but let's do business with them
    already now when they are mis-organized. The nation will be some day very 
    large and also wealth market.

    When computers came into practical use one company picked up the ball
    and ran with it. Currently they are still the biggest in the field.

    The opening up of the markets of Eastern Europe presents the biggest
    thing that has happened to this industry since that time.

    If we sit on our backsides giving them food aid and feeling all warm
    and fuzzy while we do so, then another company will get in there ahead
    of us.

    This corporation will only survive as long as it is profitable, a fact
    that has been ignored until quite recently. If we get in and establish
    ourselves we may well be ahead of the pack for years. On the other hand
    if we fail we may end up rightsizing ourselves right out of existence.

    Jamie.

    re the number of clone systems in Eastern Europe - Pier-Carlo Falotti
    joked at a recent European DECUS that when the Iron Curtain began to
    collapse, we were already number one in the market in several countries
    there, witout having sold any systems.
    
    re the length of time they've had them - I can remember attending
    an RSX-11M MACRO course, as a customer, in 1975, with a real Russian in the 
    group.
    
    re the need for humanitarian treatment of the people there -
    definitely.   The current scramble for markets in Eastern Europe
    looks something like the moves to corner economic assets, that
    went on around 1918-20 in the former Russian Empire.   Of course,
    most western countries were colonialists then...   

    My problem with our plans is that there are people still in jail in
    (West) Germany for smuggling in the first copy of those computers
    behind the Iron Curtain, and now we're going to service the clones.

This discussion is interesting. 

Up until last week I had never visited any of the Eastern Bloc countries. I spent 
2 days in Prague with the aerospace companies and what I learnt and heard 
impressed me. They are keen to adopt technology and modern management practise. 
They know that they are 15-20 years behind the west but this does not daunt 
them, in fact it is a great challenge for them which they are taking up with 
great courage. In Prague on a hill overlooking the old city is a giant metronome.
It replaces a statue of Lenin. The metronone represents time ticking away as they
divest themselves of the old Communist ways and progress towards a bright new 
future. They want to bridge the gap by revolution not evolution. If they succeed 
then I suspect that they will overtake similiar western countries in all areas. 
Remember that not all eastern bloc countries are in the same state as in the 
USSR. One point of interest, Czechoslovakia was one of the most advanced, 
technologically and socially, countries in Europe before World War II.

They want us to help them not just in technology but in management as well. One
managing director I spoke to believes in his product, wants to be successful on 
a global scale, knows that he cannot achieve his goals unless he gets the right
management and attitudes inside his plants. The technical people are very bright.
If they have the capability to re-engineer VAXs, PDP, IBM PCs etc including the
microcode and other software then we should have every respect for them. They
are not backward nor are they stupid. We should be there ready to help, and at a
price if need be. Aid should be directed at people who need it. Business is for 
people who want us to be partners with them. These guys want partners not aid.
If they can get it for free then they will take it, we must not be that 
unprofessional!

I hope to be able to go back to Prague - the opportunity for learning about 
people and their culture is vast and one that I as an individual would like
to have and one that Digital as a company must not ignore.

    re .22: I don't think anyone is sitting in jail here (in West Germany)
    because of smuggling computers.
    
    DEC did pay a hefty fine some ten years ago though (over a million
    bucks if I remember correctly).
    

    I wouldn't get too excited about Russian industry turning around in
    five years.  We are dealing with 70 years of an entrenched attitude
    that says "they pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work".  The whole
    concept of working your ___ of for future gain is foreign.  Also, I
    believe the unions will strong re-assert themselves.
    
    I don't think your will ever see a truly capitalistic system there.
    The communists and party bosses will continue to reign.  What will
    evolve will be some form of socialism with heavy emphasis on work
    norms, lots of pay for little work, and many other characteristics
    that will drive American's nuts who want to turn a quick profit.  Two
    or three generations from now.....when the new crowd is in
    charge...then things will start moving.

    Re .25

    How is that Mcdonalds in Moscow coming along?

    Jamie.

    re: Mcdonalds
    
    Pretty well from what I've heard. However I also heard that there are
    different lines and areas to eat depending on what type of money you
    are going to pay with. American dollars get a short line and a nice
    quiet area to eat at. Rubles get you long lines and a noisy eating
    area. There are also rumours that the food is different as well. I
    have never been to Moscow but I guess this is very prevalent. Dollars
    go along way and rubles get you next to nothing.
    
    Jim C.
    
    

>      <<< Note 1694.25 by COOKIE::LENNARD "Rush Limbaugh, I Luv Ya Guy" >>>
>
>    We are dealing with 70 years of an entrenched attitude
>    that says "they pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work".  
    
    Sounds like a good fit for the new Digital.
    

    So if you give people a decent job and decent pay they do real work,
    even after 70 years of Communism.

    I think that the "we will really work if you will really pay us"
    syndrome will be very easy to re-establish.

    Re Mcdonalds. I believe that it is a totally ruble based business.
    That was one of the conditions for it being set up.

    Jamie.

Re .25

Interesting to see a right-winger with so little faith in capitalism, 
competition, work, seeking the advantage, freedom, entrepreneurship, in fact,
with no faith in these things, clinging desperately to anticommunism
after the fact of its nearly complete disembowelment. 

"Entrenched for 70 years" is a fallacy.  If we've seen anything in these 
15 years of busting loose from dictators -- starting in Portugal and Spain
in the 70s, the cracking of the eastern bloc, flickering briefly in China,
overwhelming Gorbachev -- it is that people understand freedom perfectly well
after no matter how long and they generally have an idea what to do with it.

I'll bet there are thousands of people in the ex-Soviet ex-Union who are
plotting right now how to get rich from Digital's presence.

    Re: .-1
    
    I went back and re-read .25.  I didn't see any
    "... clinging desperately to anticommunism."

    I think that what was meant by "anti communism" was the work ethic, or
    rather lack of work ethic, that the Communist system fostered. 

    Having worked in Prague in the early 60s I was amazed that anything
    ever got done at all. But on the other hand people that I knew there
    and who later escaped to the west had very little difficulty in
    adapting to the western system.

    I therefore think that the author of .25s opinions are not in keeping
    with the times and the east will be catching up at a goodly pace.

    Jamie.

    I'm not talking about the bright young hot-shots who want to make it
    big.  I'm talking about the millions of workers in heavy industry who
    have done the minimum (when sober) for 30-40-50 years.  Not much is
    going to change there.  Sure, there will be some bright spots, but I
    think that anyone (including DEC) who is looking for decent ROI in
    3-5 years may well be disappointed.
    
    If they are going to adopt any system remotely resembling capitalism,
    there is one monumental chasm they have to cross....there ain't no
    CAPITAL, period.  The damned country is an economic basket case, and if
    they try to print their "capital", (which they are), things are going
    to get worse, not better.  Just look at their agricultural mess.  At
    every level....farmer, shipper, warehouser, middleman, retailer.....
    a sophisticated system of credit is badly needed.  Our world-renowned
    agriculture system is totally dependent on large amounts of readily
    available, long and short term credit......the russkies don't even know
    what that means, much less have it.
    
    I want good things to happen there....but it is going to be a long
    painful process.....several generations long.           

    While working in Poland in the late '60s -- the "in" joke at the time
    was:
    
    "There is no unemployment in Poland -- except in the factories!"
    
    -Gerry

    Re .33

    >I want good things to happen there....but it is going to be a long
    >painful process.....several generations long.           
    
    I think that you vastly over estimate the time required.

    I was born into a country that was at war. After it ended the country
    was almost totally bankrupt. Food was rationed, much of our cities
    and industries had been totally destroyed in war. We had to export
    anything we could manufacture just to buy food to keep us alive.
    All around us our neighbours were in as bad or even worse conditions. 

    It took us about 15 years to get back to normal. Food rationing ended
    much sooner than that, but rebuilding all the mess and getting industry
    going again took a little longer.

    The USSR, or what ever it is called this week, is in nowhere near as
    bad a state as the UK was when World War II ended.

    Jamie.                                         

    re -1 .... I wish I could agree with you, but I don't.  As they say
    in Texas...."that old dog don't hunt".  Granted, the U.K. was flat
    on its back after WWII....but the basic structure of a capitalistic
    society was still there, fully intact.  In Russia there is nothing..
    except tens of millions of people waiting to be told what to do.
    And I fear they'll keep waiting for a long time.
    
    This is not happening in places like Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia
    because people remember the way it used to be.  In Russia, they've
    never known anything else.  I still say 15-20 years.  

 >Granted, the U.K. was flat
 >on its back after WWII....but the basic structure of a capitalistic
 >society was still there, fully intact. 

	Although for a few years after WWII there *was* the hope
	that we'd be able to ditch that.

    Ten to fifteen years I'll accept, it was the "several generations" that
    was way too long.

    Jamie.

    Time is of the essence when it comes to getting in on the ground
    floor... Instead of playing catch-up ball with the Japanese, maybe 
    George could cultivate our (U.S.) participation in the new Commonwealth?
    Or, should we wait, say 40 years, and be beaten at our own game again?

    re:37
    
    Hey,MU::PORTER,do everyone in Britain a favor and take the next plane
    for  anywhere in Eastern Europe. Too many Americans and Britons died to
    keep England the way it was.
    
    Ken

    Hmmm.  I can figure out that Mr. Bouchard frowns on Mr. Porter's note,
    but I can't figure out why.  Perhaps I'm being dense again.  Would
    somebody please explain it to me.
    
    I intend this as a serious question,
    twe

Re: .37, .40, .41

Its pretty convoluted, but as I read between the lines, my SWAG is:

Mr Porter seems to have been referring to some effort to move Britain
towards a socialist system in the wake of WW2.

Mr Bouchard, at a guess, seems to be confusing his wars, by insinuating that
lots of good folks died in WW2 to keep Britain from becoming communist...

Mr Porter is located in Littleton, Massachusetts, not Britain.

    re: .40 If you knew ANYTHING about WW2's effect upon the UK, you'd know
    that life was never the same again.
    
    Thankfully.
    
    There's a lot to be said about how life changed in post-war Britain,
    but this isn't the place.
    
    Andy - who IS in the UK

    Can anyone provide me with names of Digital folks who know whether
    Digital is looking for 'a few good (wo)men' to transfer to the former
    Soviet Union/Eastern block?  I'd prefer not to involve HR at this point
    and simply get a 'reading' of the job opportunities and what expertise
    is being sought.  Thanks much.

    Re -1
    
    I suggest you contact YVES SARRAZIN at Geneva (Switzerland)
    He is something like Marketing Manager for Eatern Europe and can
    probably give you pointers
    I don't know his ALL-IN-1 mail address but it could be @GEO or @GEC
    
    BTW, the Digital Organization in charge of Eastern Europe is called
    CDG, which stands for Country Development Group
    
    Good luck