Conference 7.286::digital

    ... if *you* pay for 'em, *you* get to keep 'em. I don't suppose anyone
    would consider keeping a textbook that Digital paid for. IMHO, unless
    it's a textbook that most people in your cost center need, most of the
    time, this shareholder doesn't want the Corporation to buy it.
    
    It's tax deductable for you, too!

    .....but isn't it also in your best interest to continue to educate
    yourself?  Sounds like money well spent.  Hey, the fat days are over.
    
    Conversely, in 12 years of management, I never heard of such a program.
    If they actually did reimburse you it would probably be taxable income.

    RE:  .1.  Below a certain percentage of your income, business 
    expenses are not tax deductible.  
    
    I need these textbooks for current job responsibilities.  Whether
    I keep the books years down the road is irrelevant for me.  
    We're speaking of "required education" here...The books that I need
    include equations and theory for required work...
    
    

    I just learned that textbook purchase may be approved with  
    proper justification and a V.P. signature.  My concerns are 
    "unjustified".  As long as there is some channel to go through,
    I believe the company is doing the right thing on this issue.
                                                               
    

    
    Why can't you submit them on a miscellaneous expense voucher?
    
    If your manager ok'd the purchase and you have your receipt
    shouldn't the manager be able to sign off on an expense voucher?
    
    Mary
    

	If I need a book to do my job isn't it my manager's job to get it?
	Paying for it is his problem right?

			Alfred

    	Not necessarily...However, if you are REQUIRED to have this book to
    do your job and the company/manager doesn't pay for it, then you have a
    tax writeoff, assuming you get over the minimum IRS requirement. When I
    was in a degree program several years back, the company would pay $30
    per course for textbooks, which barely makes a dent. I paid for the
    rest out of my pocket.

Hey, now I see why we need so many VPs!

Books are on the famous memo "CLARIFICATION AND REPORTING FROM MURV'S 11/16
MEMO" (a.k.a. "the memo that banned Post-Its").  Petty cash won't pay for
these items without an authorized (KO or VP) signature.

    Lessee, I >can't< buy a $30 textbook, but I >can< go on a several-hundred-
    dollar course that provides a lower information delivert bandwidth
    than the book would have done...
    
    (I just heard of this one yesterday - I'm trying to decide whether
     a VMS V5.2 Infernals book is a "textbook" or a "manual".  It's
     crucial...)

    on the subject of books cost, I've seen our VMS 5.2 book (I think it is the
    system management/commands/ features grey book) as a requirments for an
    operating systems course at northeastern univ, the cost of the book was
    $100 !
    few years from now text books will cost almost as much as the course
    it self! 

>    (I just heard of this one yesterday - I'm trying to decide whether
>     a VMS V5.2 Infernals book is a "textbook" or a "manual".  It's
>     crucial...)

	It isn't a textbook.  A textbook would have study questions and
    exercises.

    >   It isn't a textbook.  A textbook would have study questions and
    > exercises.
    
    	Sorry, but that is not true. While most textbooks have these items
    in them, a lot of college textbooks are just dissertations of a
    selected  subject. Often a teacher will make up his/her own exercises
    to fit this type of book.
    	Ex.  the original "C" software book by Kernigham and Ritchie, was
    used as a "C" textbook.
     This book described how the C language was derived
    
    Mandelbrots " the fractal geometry of nature" is a dissertaion of his 
    work, but is required by most classes teaching complex video imaging.
    
    	The more important question is does it contain information useful
    to the topic being studied.
    
    Brian

re: .12: My copy of K&R (1978, 13th printing) has exercises in it, 
         substantiating your referring to it as a text book, I  guess.

Re .12:

	If it does not have study questions and exercises, it would be a
    reference book or dissertation.  Some courses do not have textbooks as
    such.  Most college courses have required reading, and the textbook for
    a course, if there is one, is part of that reading even if it is not 
    listed as a seperate item on the usual 'required reading' handouts.

	The VMS IDSM is a reference book.  If you need it to do your job 
    better, then it is reasonable for Digital to buy it for you.  If it is 
    only a part of your college course requirements and Digital would not 
    directly benifit from your having the book, then the cost of it should be 
    covered by the textbook policy.  Given the nature of the VMS IDSM, you 
    should be able to make a case for the former.  You'd have a harder time
    if it was something comparable from IBM.

    RE: .10
    
    >on the subject of books cost, I've seen our VMS 5.2 book (I think it is the
    >system management/commands/ features grey book) as a requirments for an
    >operating systems course at northeastern univ, the cost of the book was
    >$100 !
    
    Today's Livewire just announced the availability of the IDSM with in
    internal price of $65. If you can't get your cost center to spring for
    it, you can spring for it youself for only $74.95 from DECdirect.
    
    Deb

    re .13
    	You are correct. K&R does have Exercises in it, although they were
    hard to find. I stand corrected. So let me throw out two more examples
    to make up for it:
    
    	San Jose State Materials Engineering Class on Thin Films 296T used
    A Electrochemical Society monograph (Wiley & Sons, 1978), as the required 
    textbook for the course. . A monograph is a group of selected papers 
    presented in a single text.The instructor
    made up his own problem set to follow the reading material.
    
    A course I took on sputtering used a book called Vacuum technology,
    Thin films, and Sputtering by R.V. Stuart (Academic Press, 1983) as the 
    required text. It was a overview of
    the the three technology areas.
    
    I even took a course where the required text was a ASM Metals reference
    Book. (it was a lab course.)
    
    Brian

    This is starting to get rediculous.
    
    If this book is required as part of your tools of trade, in the same
    way that screwdrivers are for any customer service engineer or any wrench
    is for a mechanic, then you should have a right to buy it.
    For this person the I&DS is NOT a textbook, in the same way that the
    LPS40 service manual is NOT a textbook for a field engineer or the
    Ferrari-F40 workshop manual is not for a mechanic. Yes, you can argue
    that other books are not paid for by DEC (K&R ect), maybe some should
    be. What next, we have to provide our own VMS or Ultrix doc sets?
    
     
    If your manager spouts "the rules" in this case, a stiff note to 
    Jack Smith detailing your dilemma should be sent. 
    
    This would really be a case of penny-wise, pound foolish.
    
    John

    I have worked in 10-11 tool rooms in the same number
    of companys this is the first one that gave me tools.
    All others helped me to buy tools at the co. discount rate
    but I owned the tools and had to deduct there cost from
    my income tax at the end of the year. You supply your
    own tools and take better care of them.
    
    
    buz

>   You supply your
>    own tools and take better care of them.
    
    I've heard there were people like that but I'm not one of them. If
    my son becomes one of them I'll be very upset. Part of the problem in
    this company is people fail to respect the tools they are give to use
    or the job they are given to do.
    
    If a person can't treat company provided tools as well as they do those
    they buy for themselves the it's a wonder they can take pride in a
    feeling of ownership in their work, their product and their company.
    
    			Alfred

    well Al I bet you have something at work 
    that belongs to you that you treat better then  
    DEC property.
    
    Do you lock your desk at night? 
    
    
    buz 

>    well Al I bet you have something at work 
>    that belongs to you that you treat better then  
>    DEC property.

    Although this was addressed to someone name "Al" I think it
    was really about my note. Apologies if I'm wrong. If it was
    addressed at me, you'd lose that bet. There is little I own
    at my desk at work and I can't think of anything I treat better
    then equivalent that DEC owns. I know that I probably treat
    my DEC owned workstation at the office better then I treat the
    PC that I own at home. And certainly the DEC owned modem I have
    at home gets treated quite a bit better then some things I own.
    Just because I don't own it doesn't mean I'm not responsible for it.

    OH, and yes I do lock my desk at night. That's where I keep Company
    Confidential papers. Don't you lock yours? Just because your stuff
    is in it?

    			Alfred

    re .14
    
    >You'd have a harder time
    >if it was something comparable from IBM.
    
    	Hah, maybe this month I'd find that one slightly harder
    	to justify.
    
    	But from '81 until last month, I was part of DEC's
    	IBM Interconnect group, so I'd probably have had a
    	sporting chance of being able to order the "MVS 
        Internals and Data Structures Manual" if I'd wanted
    	one!