Conference 7.286::digital

    "Tricking, Teasing, and Manipulating" sound subtle. I don't know KO
    but no one I know who does has ever accused him of being subtle.
    My guess is that there is some critical context missing in that
    article. For articles like that they usually spend a couple of days
    with someone like Ken. I'd hate to think what kinds of things would
    show up in an article about me after 2-3 days. He probably did say
    that but I doubt they explained it in the article anything like what
    Ken meant when he said it. In the last 9 years that I've been at
    Digital I have heard a lot of people complain that if anything Ken
    is too often to direct BTW.

    By puritanical style I would assume that they mean things like his
    not drinking or using rough language. And it wasn't puritanical style
    that lead to the witch hunts it was petty jealously and paranoid
    suspicions on the part of people who were *not* the leaders of the
    puritan society. Also puritanical style implies that everyone knows
    the rules and the expectations made on them. Sort of the opposite of
    tricking them and manipulating them. The puritans were pretty straight
    forward about such things and trickery was not a part of their style.

    			Alfred

    Actually, the witch hunts were a result of (male) doctors wanting to
    stop (female) midwives putting them out of a living. That's what most
    of them were, you know.
    
    Just goes to show how things can be distorted if there's an advantage
    to someone to do so.
    
    	- andy

    Rather the Ken Olsen not being subtle, I think it's a matter of not
    knowing when to take him seriously or not.  This is the impression I
    got from reading about him in "The Ultimate Entrepeneur" and from
    hearing him in person at meeting where he talked about UNIX.

    So Ken Olsen may have said that, but he may have not meant it in the
    way it was understood by readers.

    Leadership is not manipulation.  It's getting complex and ambiguous
    goals into a clear and concise form and getting the overall goals to be
    incorporated into personal goals.

    re: .4
    
    and hasn't this always been one of KO's best management qualities...
    
    he has said many times that you load a person down with as much work
    as you can until they can't possibly do anymore and in this
    way you learn what someone is made of and who can actually produce...
    
    sort of like the old saying "when the going gets tough..."
    
    or sayings such as "well this will seperate the men from the boys..."
    
    the point being that some people see strong tough competition as
    someone manipulating whereas others see it as a challenge to be taken
    
    

    I also strongly disagree with loading people up to see what they are
    made of.  My pay stub says full-time, 40 hours.....that's what I do.
    
    There is life after DEC, y'know.

    re: last two
    
    	some look at it as a challenge others as being tested
    
    	some see that glass as half full others as half empty
    
    	guess it depends on your perspecitive....
    
    

    re all;
    
    Carolyn,  I too find KO's words very scary.  I wonder what our
    customers think of his "management style".
    
    Question; Why does DEC remind me of a college campus instead of a 
    business??? 
    
    

re Note 1344.5 by CSS::GORDON:

>     he has said many times that you load a person down with as much work
>     as you can until they can't possibly do anymore and in this
>     way you learn what someone is made of and who can actually produce...
  

        Of course, the problem is that once you do this you've:

        	1) identified your strongest workers,

        	2) discouraged all your other workers, including
        	those of average competence and productivity,

        This is a smart strategy if you can run your business with
        the first class alone;  otherwise it may be corporate
        suicide.

        Bob

    Amend 1) to identified and _burned_out_ your strongest workers, and
    possibly alienated them as well.

        Of course, the problem is that once you do this you've:

        	1) identified your strongest workers,

        	2) challenged all your other workers, including
        	those of average competence and productivity, to
	        become better

        This is a smart strategy if employees feel challenged,
        it may be corporate suicide if those of average competence
	feel threatened and give up.


see .8        

    .6:

    The mis-manager you mention could, I think, be described as being in
    some respects sub-human.

    He also is playing a dangerous game.  Some people, when driven to such
    despair, take others (such as the person who caused them the despair)
    with them.

    Dick

    
    Re: .13
    
    I think loading people down until they crack is more than
    just stupid, it borders on unethical.
    
    What about the co-workers of such people who accept the "challenge"
    having to deal with some fool driven to the edge of insanity.
    
    What about the families of these people too?
    
    The whole idea is very misguided.
    
    Steve
    

	I always thought Data General was the company noted for loading
    people down with work so much that they either cracked or survived
    to be recognized as a [burned-out] superstar?  Did Captain Eddie
    learn this "trick" while working for Ken Olsen?

	As to the quotes attributed to Ken Olsen, I too am troubled
    by such thinking as it only serves to support the age-old dichotomy
    of management versus labor in which employees are in fact a distinct
    class of people being manipulated behind their backs by management.

	These statements also tend to contradict other ideals and
    notions attributed to Ken Olsen such as the importance of trust, 
    the open door policy, and "doing the right thing".  I too hope the
    recent KO quotes are not true, but given Ken Olsen's apparent
    disinterest in using Digital's various computer hardware and
    software products to convey any sort of messages to DEC's employees,
    I don't expect the attributed quotes to be refuted anytime soon.

				    -davo

    
    re: previous
    
    	I think the key to Ken's statement was described in his "merry
    	blue eyes". Now just stop and think about it for a minute. Do
    	you really really think that if teasing, tricking, and manipulating
    	were his style, that he would come out and say it in a magazine
    	interview?
    
    	Do you really need to depend on a magazine article to learn about
    	your CEO's views and philosophy? 
    
    	Personally, I'd rather work for a manager that came right out and
    	said those things, instead of working for someone who says one
    	thing and does another. At least you know what you're facing, and
    	you ccan make your decisions accordingly.
                                                 
    	re: Gordon. I sort of agree with you, especially at the top levels
    	of management. They get paid the big bucks to juggle many projects
    	at once. And nobody has to play that game if they don't want to.
    	Last time I looked, there were no chains around anybody's ankles
    	here at DEC.
    
    	-jfs

    re .18

    Am I reading it correctly, that you're suggesting that K.O. really
    resorts to "TTM", with all its concommitant faults, and that we should
    be wary that TTM does not work at any level of management?

    There are lots of management styles. I used the "walking around" method
    and "cajoling." Appealing to people on multiple levels to get their
    positive agreement is nothing new; I don't think that we're talking
    about anything else here with "TTM." I could easily use the same words
    tongue-in-cheek.

    I'm as capable of the next person of being negative, but I don't think
    negativism is called for here. Personally, I'm glad K.O. hasn't lost
    his sense of humor.

    As for Gordon Bell, I never knew him either. My sense from memos I've
    seen, though, is that he preferred the atmosphere of the smaller DEC
    and felt less at home at DEC, the "big" company. But that's neither
    here nor there. Most of us, when we make career choices, know to make
    them for positive reasons, most of all opportunity. Gordon didn't leave
    to go fly-fishing.

    Let's not start YAWN (Yet Another Whining Note) looking for managers to
    fit into yet another sinister category of bad management.

    /Peters

    re: .19/.20 and others
    
    	I think alot of you don't read things correctly...
    
    	In .5 I was responding to .4 "organizational manipulation"
    statement...of course people read what they want into it
    and soon it became teasing and tricking anxd then TTM management
    styles...
    
    	let's put this much energy into our jobs and the company will come
    out ahead in the long run...

    re .last several

    Well, I have to admit this topic has been a bit like playing "phone." My
    response to .18 was in the context of "TTM, [K.O. espoused management
    style,] does not bring positive results." Which, if you unravel
    everything before, as .20 points out, is not exactly what .18 said.

    Sorry for YAWNing. :-)

    /Peters