Conference 7.286::digital

    Normal working hours are 8:15 to 5:00, with a 45-minute lunch and
    two breaks.  "Flextime" is a defacto policy in engineering, but
    there's nothing written down to support it.
    
    MATT

    I bet you're going to find that there isn't any official policy
    on flextime.  Ask your personnel people...  When I started working
    at DEC (12 1/2 years ago), I was told that official hours were 8:15
    to 5, so for the first few weeks, I worked 8:15 to 5 - with an hour's
    commute each way since DEC would not pay to relocate me and it was
    a few years before I could afford to move closer - and I am not
    a morning person.  Eventually I got tired of being the only person
    in the department in at that time (the whole group was made up of "night
    people" like me) for nearly an hour every morning, so I asked the
    boss what the hours REALLY were.  He told me that it was "unofficial
    flextime", so I started working 9-6:30, which I still do (except
    these days it is more like 8:30 to 7, since I can get home on foot
    in ten minutes if I hustle).  Other engineers here work from 6-3
    in the summer (we have a few notorious "morning people" in this
    group).  A few folks work mostly from home.  But I don't think there
    is any official policy across the company.

        There actually is a corporate personnel policy, but I don't
        think it says what you want; it's section 6.40 in the Orange
        Book.  I've extracted the current version from the ORANGEBOOK
        infobase, and here's what it says about "Work Schedules":
        

Work Schedules                                     Effective: 10-AUG-87
                                                     Section: 6.40

POLICY

Work schedules are established by appropriate management at each
Digital facility.

PRACTICE

Regular Work Week (R40)

In the U.S. the following guidelines apply:

    o  5 days, 40 hour/week

    o  1/2 or 3/4 hour unpaid lunch period, exclusive of the 40
       hours above

    o  a 10-minute paid break during the first half of the shift,
       another 10-minute paid break in the second half of the shift.

NOTE:  Information on Special Work Weeks appears in Section 6.41 of
       this manual.

        [There's more, dealing primarily with hourly employees.  See the
        VTX infobase if you want the details.] 

        So, as you can see, if your local management has determined that
        working 9:15 to 6:00 makes more sense for your facility, then
        that's what you'll work.  HOWEVER, I doubt that that's the case; I
        suspect that if your manager was pushed, he'd find that the
        "appropriate management" hasn't determined that his schedule is
        appropriate for your site.  He might even find that your chosen
        schedules are more appropriate than what he's comfortable with. 
        
        Of course, pushing hard (from either side) could degenerate into a
        "lose-lose" situation.  If you can negotiate a compromise, perhaps
        you can all win. 
        
        Tom

    	Thanks for your quick answers. They aren't what we were hoping
    for, but that's life!
    
    thanks again,
    			
    		Bob

    let's add another wrinkle - work hours are determined by "facility"
    
    thus each facility may have their own "facility hours" which become
    the appropriate work hours for all employees in that facility unless
    special arrangements except those hours.
    
    ie:  the "work hours" for my unit are 8:15am to 5:00pm because that
    is the published "facility" hours for this building.
    
    
    In practice here in sales support, our hours are really our customer
    hours.  I have some people working onsite who may start at 8:00am,
    8:30am or 9:00am because that is when their customer starts work.
    
    I expect my people to be at work by 8:15am here at the office if
    they are coming here, I expect them to be "on time" by my customers
    definition when they are appearing at a customer location,  and
    I really don't track comings and goings so long as the work gets
    done.
    
    But if the work is NOT getting done, then I expect them to adhere
    to the facility hours just as I do.
    
    I guess I am saying that lets be flexible and creative - the idea
    is to get the job done not punch a clock
    
    Tim B

    
    >    But if the work is NOT getting done, then I expect them to adhere
    >to the facility hours just as I do.
    
    >    I guess I am saying that lets be flexible and creative - the idea
    >is to get the job done not punch a clock
     
        Re .6; I always thought if you do not do the work, you will not
    have a job so that you can adhere to the facility hours! :-)
    
    I could not chuckle a little at what was said and what was actually
    meant.
    
    	- mark
    

    Our "rules" seem to be (by observation):
    
    1) Get your assigned tasks done
    
    2) If you are scheduled to come to a meeting, attend it
    
    3) If you screw up on 1) or 2) you may be required to be present
       during the "facility standard hours".
    
    
    A software engineering group (as if that needs to be said).
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

    	I've decided to take it easy for a while. I've been working
    just too damn hard lately. I'm going to start working our bosses
    hours !!! I can use a rest!
    
    no joke!

    OK, you got me!
    
    Do we (DEC) value the differences or don't we?!?
    
    Part of this value is to let each person produce to the best of
    their abilities.  I am a semi-morning person (I hate to get up but
    I do my best work early).  Others are better able to work late into
    the night.  My feeling is that if there is a problem with an employee
    not producing, it will not be solved by a time sheet, and the global
    "everyone will follow this policy" will only frustrate the best
    performers.  I saw this solution in action and when the manager
    said everyone will work 8 to 5 with an hour at noon for lunch, that
    group suddenly became less productive.
    
    A good manager treats each person as an individual and solves problems
    one-on-one.  A poor manager quotes the "book".  Flame/off
    
    Lee G.
    

I work in Engineering in England.  Officially we work a 37.5 hour week,
9:00 to 17:30 with 1 hour for lunch. 

Because I find it simpler I base my work schedule on a 40 hour week.  I 
generally work from 10:00 to 19:00 with 1 hour for lunch.  Quite often I 
work longer hours.  There are two reasons why I work these hours.  First, I
absolutely hate getting up in the morning (and rarely go to bed before
midnight or later).  Second, if I did arrive at the office by 9:00 it would
take me about 1 hour with the amount of traffic on the roads around here -
and almost as long to get home if I left before 18:30 in the evening.  As
it is my commute is a pleasant 20 minute drive. 

I have a simple answer to the "you will be here by 9:00" person.  "I will 
be here by 9:00 if you insist, but I will also go home at exactly 17:30."
This usually has the desired effect.

jb

    Here in SPO we have flextime as follows -
    
    Core hours are 8:00 AM - 2:30 PM
    There is a two-hour 'window',  meaning that you can start work 
    anytime between 6:00 AM and 8:00 AM, and leave after working your
    eight hours. A great many people choose to rise early and work
    6:00 - 2:30. Others prefer to start later. 
    
    Note: this is for hourly workers in a mfg. plant.

    Customer Response Representative:  Yes, Mr. Customer, our contract
    does say that we will response to your needs at 08:00 but our engineers
    are on 'flex-time' and I don't know when someone will be in.  Would
    you like to talk to the Field Service Manager when he comes in?
    
    Flex time is great if you or your group can afford it!
    
    Irv Waldo
    SWA System Support

    re -1:
    
    This has become a major topic of conversation recently in support
    cirlces... we contract with the customer for "continuous effort"
    and yet, in order to satisfy their needs, this often means a workaround
    or fix.  Since the field does not own the sources, we are bound
    to the availability of Engineering.
    
    Marge

    ...of course the advantage is that someone working flex hours may
    be working straight hours in GIA terms...
    
    :^)

    re .13
    
    Yes, flexi-time is clearly inappropriate for some type of job,
    particularly those jobs which involve rapid response to contracted
    customer situations.
    
    However, for jobs which have little or no customer contact, flexi-time
    solves many problems for Digital, for the employees and for communities
    in which Digital facilities are located. 
    
    When I worked in UK HQ in Reading, flexi-time was introduced with the
    usual core hours and flexi boundaries as an experiment. The 6 month
    experiment finished some while ago but has (in my opinion) been very
    successful. The only stipulation on the scheme was that no group should
    be entirely unmanned during normal working hours (9 - 5:30).
    
    With the traffic situation in Reading being what it was (and still is),
    this helped tremendously and with no downside that I ever saw.
    
    Above all, I think flexibility (as opposed to flexi-time) is the key
    issue. I have never worked in any part of Digital (including a field
    office) which has not been flexible about working hours. I would
    probably not want to work in such a group or organisation. 

    Jon

    	And while I'm at it, what about a 4 day work week?
    
    still dreamin'
    			Bob

   re .17
    
>    	And while I'm at it, what about a 4 day work week?

    I understand from a colleague in Germany that this is now possible, but
    involves some sort of a trade-off concerning vacation time (up to 42
    days per year) pension, retirement age etc and *without* flexi-time
    being in operation ! 
       
    I also know one person who works in DEC Switzerland (not EHQ) that has
    negotiated a 4 day week for himself and used an article in Management
    Memo by Ken Olsen to help persuade his management to agree.
       
    Jon

    During the last gasoline crisis (lemme see, when was that, anyhow,
    1983?  These artificially-concocted crises are too frequent for
    me!), there were several people in engineering who worked a four-day
    week (4 10-12 hour days instead of 5 10-12 hour days like we usually
    work) to conserve gasoline or because they could only buy gasoline
    on odd or even days depending on their license plate numbers,
    especially people who had a very long commute.  Since most of these
    people had terminal at home even then, I don't think that any less
    work got done, but it made things a bit easier to take.
    
    I didn't do the 4-day week - at the time I only had a 15-minute
    commute anyhow, and I only bought gas every couple of weeks (I stayed
    home on weekends to avoid getting stranded somewhere with no gas).

  Nobody on this side of the pond has commented on the effects of flextime on
traffic, so I will. It is a dual effect; people who avoid rush hours can same
a lot of time and stress in commuting, and if a large percentage of the work-
force is on flextime it can reduce the traffic volume during rush hours. That
in turn, makes it easier for people (inside and outside DEC) who are locked
into a standard schedule.
  For those of you who are not familiar with the Marlboro/Maynard area, we are
plagued with a serious combination of circumstances: rapid business and resi-
dential growth, an antiquated road system (except for a few highways) which is
being improved at turtle speed, and almost no public transportation. As was 
said, most DEC plants here have de-facto flextime but an official DEC policy
on flextime would help solve the traffic problem and improve our image.

    DEC Munich has had flextime for quite a few years now (seven?).
    The core time is 9:00 - 11:30, 13:30 - 15:30 (14:30 on Fridays).
    Special rules aplly to support groups etc. that have to be manned
    during specific times.
    
    Your monthly balance must be withing �10 hours of that months
    'standard' working hours (8 * # of working days). The 'standard'
    workweek at DEC is still 40 hours here (an exception nowadays).
    

    
    re: .20 "Commuter Stress"
    
    	I work in the Bedford training center and I find it *much*
    better to set my own hours.I get *extremely* frustrated and 
    stressed out in traffic.I guess it's sort of a "Hot Button" for
    me.
    
    	We don't really have an official flex policy.Its always been
    implied that,when you are not teaching,we don't care whether you
    work in your cube (I do) or at home,just be prepared when it is
    time to teach.
    
    	If I had to negotiate Rt. 3 everyday during rush hour,I'd go
    insane! :-)
    
    _TomG_
    
    
    

    RE: .20  "Traffic problems in Maynard"
    
    You think it's bad now?  Wait until all the people currently riding
    Digital Commuter Vans start driving to work in their own cars.
    
    

    As already mentioned earlier, flexibility is valued greatly at Digital,
    but not everybody seems to know it  (I am talking tongue-in-cheek,
    it took me over a year to get my management to listen). If you need
    arguments, I suggest you look up the "mgmt memo" Volume 7, #1, dated
    February 1988. It's lead article is headed "Future Challenges of
    a Changing Work Force". Some extracts:
    
    " To acquire the people we need, Digital must be viewed as a company
    that vlues its people; ac ompany that is flexible and tries to
    accommodate the changing needs of its employees "
    
    and
    
    " Flexibility in work schedules is also important because people
    with highly-specialized skills -- such as software engineering --
    are becoming scarce. One way to deal with the scarcity of people
    is to recruit part-time professionals -- people who prefer a reduced
    work week for family reasons or because of outside interest "
    
    As far as I concerned, the company made a pretty good deal when
    they put me on 80% time (four days/week), as, of course, they cut
    my salary 20% at the same time, but I still do pretty much the same
    volume of work.
    
    Good luck to anybody who is doing that battle at the moment.
    
    Regards,
    Heinrich

    Let's add a new twist to the flex hours scenario.
    
    Hired to  work  8  am - 5 pm, Monday thru Friday with the understanding
    that there would be some overtime involved. (nights and/or occasionally
    weekends)

    Have worked  for  12  months  working  40  regular hours and 8 hours of
    Overtime per week.  

    After numerous  attempts  at  changing  my  work  schedule (preliminary
    stages),  looking  at  the  options  given  to  me by my manager and my
    supervisor  (acting),  I  have come to the conclusion that none of them
    are really suitable to me.

    I am  married,  have a child in daycare, and we have one automobile for
    transportation.

    My manager is trying to cut back expenses in as many areas as possible.
    I  don't  blame  him  for  this  since  he  is  getting heat from upper
    management to do this.

    The current  work  schedule  is  under  consideration at this time, and
    although I'm not too unhappy with it, there are some things included in
    this schedule that definitely don't settle with me.  It is as follows:

    Monday	9 am - 5 pm	8 pm - 9 pm
    Tuesday	11 am - 5 pm	7 pm - 10 pm
    Wednesday	9 am - 5 pm	8 pm - 9 pm
    Thursday	10 am - 5 pm	8 pm - 10 pm
    Friday 	9 am - 5 pm	7 pm - 8 pm

    Does working the above schedule fall under any shift differential
    stuff?
    
    The reason that this schedule is not feasible is because:

    1.  Having  only  one  automobile  for  transportation, I would have to
    arrive  at 8:00 (my husband needs to be at work by 8:30 at the latest),
    leaving  me  between  1  and 3 hours to do nothing.  If I come into the
    office, I will most likely work. (which would be considered OT)

    2.  Call  it  'being  a  working  mother  guilt trip', but I see little
    enough  of my family as it is.  Working from home at night allows me to
    be in the presence of my family, but I'm not really "with" them.

    3.  I  presented an alternative of rehiring our Site Services
    Operations staff to perform the backups on  our  timesharing machine.  
    This would cause an additional $20K increase to one of the group's
    four cost centers per year.   This additional cost is not acceptable
    to my manager.  Although the additional cost is there, rehiring the
    Site Operations staff would allow me to retain my 8-5 work schedule
    with  occasional  overtime.  Another alternative that I suggested is 
    that management promote me to a WC 4 position (a  D14  - Operations 
    Analyst position).  Needless to say, that didn't go over very well
    either.  
    
    Is there any 'legal' way that a manager can force an employee to
    work an altered work schedule without that employee's agreement?

    At this point, it seems like neither I or my boss are really willing
    to give in.  A compromise needs to be worked out.  Anyone have any
    ideas?

    Have you gone to personnel for help/suggestions? I'd try that.
    Then there is always to option of going over your bosses head.
    
    			Alfred

    Yes, I have gone to Personnel (at the PSA level).  I will be meeting
    with the Personnel Managers' Manager sometime later this week. 
    I've spoken with one of the other managers in my group and he gave
    me some more ideas to work on.  Hopefully something can be worked
    out.  It would be nice to have a win-win situation for a change...
    :-)

    Certainly if your management wishes concessions from you, Kristy,
    then they should also have something to offer you in return.
    As you so aptly said, "win-win".
    
    Marge

    I can't imagine anyone justifying asking an employee to work every
    day *and* every evening.  Having a couple of mornings free until
    10 or 11 am hardly makes up for giving up all your evening time
    including Friday evenings.
    
    Amazing...I thought those kinds of schedules were abolished when
    the textile industry was automated!
    
    Fight it. 
    
    Holly

I'd be interested in hearing {via mail} from anyone who is currently
involved in a flex-time situation.   I'm trying to alter my work schedule
so that I don't have to be physically at my desk on a single day of the
week so that I can take care of my son and have had little success with 
management or personnel, despite my offers to work off-hours on that day, 
or working from home partially, or working longer days...
                      
I'm looking for examples within Digital that I can use for support.
                                   
Thanks.

    RE: .30 The Salem (NIO) manufacturing facility has had official
    flex time for years (at least 7). I don't believe it allows 4 day
    weeks explicitly though. That is a problem for WC-2 people the way
    the overtime laws are written. For WC-4 I don't see a problem though.

    In the past I have worked nights rather then days unofficially but with
    management support. As long as you job doesn't require you to be
    in the office at set times it's not usually a problem in the
    engineering groups I've been part of or worked with.

    		Alfred