Conference 7.286::digital

    Thre are some cases where it might work, but my initial reaction
    would be to avoid it.  Take the case where you are doing a week
    long show.  Staying in the hotel at the show is the best way to
    be productive.  One can burn out doing booth duty, and having that
    room 5 minutes away for a 20 minute nap can keep you going.  The
    other thing that would worry me is reliability.  Many times,
    I arrive in a city very late at night.  Hotels always have someone
    at the desk, no matter what the hour.  Since there are many cases
    where you fly in, have an early presentation, and fly out, it's
    worth a good bit of money to have the 'travel' portion hassle free.

    I feel that traveling puts personal burdens on me which should be 
    compensated by allowing me to use the travel and hotel industry that 
    is built up and tuned for business trips.
    
    
    When I travel on personal business, I'm as cheap as can be, and
    using a CISS idea would appeal to me, but it will never fly as a
    corporate policy.  

    bill    
    

    If something like that became mandatory, I'd either refuse to travel
    or I'd leave.  If optional, there is already something like that
    in the "staying with family or friends"; which could  be expanded
    to be what .0 is talking about.  But if it became optional; who
    would choose to do it?  
    
    Why would I not participate?  Staying with other people, even friends
    can be stressful; when traveling, I don't need any more stress. 

        
                As someone who travels extensively on the company's behalf,
        I too, think it is silly idea,
        
        some reasons.
        
        1. In a number of countries, the extra income that a "host"
        would receive would cause a variety of taxation problems.
        
        2. In those places where this wasn't a concern, the would be
        concern that "hosts" were "special employees who got their
        salaries subsidized for post-working hours activities"
        
        3. Often when I travel, I would till the wee hours of the morning,
        eat`at odd hours and rely on the facilities of a hotel. i.e.
        Room Service at 3am, fast laundry, they ability to check out
        in a hurry etc.
        
        4. I think that the practice would be seen in some places as
        a psuedo-hotel setup, and people woulkd find their home activities
        coming under hotel rules. 
        
   	5. Often I arrive at a hotel at very odd hours, I could imagine
        a fellow digit getting peeved about having to wait for my delayed
        plain at an airport for three or four hours, organizing a rush
        baby sitter while he/she attends to my business/travel needs.
        
        6. Children, much as I love them in the right circumstances.
        I do not relish arriving at someone's place and having their
        squawling brats crawling all over me.
        
        7. Most people's house are based on the family requirements.
         YOu have a wife and two kids - you tend to have a 3 Bedroom
        house, So will digital subsidize your selling and buying a
        4-5 bedroom house so that you can take visitors. I am sure
        that if I stay at someones place, on this sort of basis, I
        would like a proper king size bed, an ensuite bathroom, air
        conditioning, and all the sorts of things I find in a hotel.
        
        Your wife will of course press my suits and provide me with
        6AM breakfasts and fresh towels daily. You do have a suana
        and swimming pool where I can relax after a very hard day's
        work.

        8. Transport. Rather than me catching a cab or hiring a car,
        would you pull a Software Specialist or Field Service Engineer
        out of their job to play taxi driver, when they could be making
        $200/hr for the corporation.
                
        lastly. So we can cut $10M off the corporations expenses. As
        an organization that makes over $1,000,000,000 per month, this
        is an acceptable drop in the bucket. It is also a legitimate
        expense of doing business and is (in most countries) tax
        deductible. What do we gain,
        ... an increased bureacracy to manage it.
        ... Professional People staying in makeshift accomodation.
        (pull out sofa-bads and the like.)
        ... Professional People acting as taxi drivers and maids...
        
        Let's not be penny wise and pound foolish. You have to spend
        money to make money, and this scheme is certainly not the way...
        
        q
        

    
    Ok, here are some real money saving ideas:
    
    o There are probably 5000 salesmen. If they take customers to lunch
      2 twice a week, or 100 times a year, at say, $100 a pop, this
      is 5000*100*100 or $50M per year. Now, with a rule ordering the
      sales force to let customers pay for their own lunch, and
      recommending that they accept if the customer volunteers to pay
      for his/her lunch, we could save from $25M-$50 per year!
    
    o Why do sales/sws need Taurus/Celebrities, when a Yugo would provide
      acceptable transportation? At least several million in savings
      here! By the same token, Field Service could buy used trucks from
      the telephone company. 
    
    o And come to think of it, why should we pay millions for a 
      20,000 node computer network and VAXnotes!
    
    DEC is a $10 Billion company, attempting to attract and retain
    professionals. The CISS proposal sounds like a reasonable idea for
    a religious organization, but it's pretty ridiculous for any 
    company, much less one of the world's biggest and most profitable!
    
    As (.-1) noted, you have to spend money to make money. Though
    reasonable controls on expense are just plain common sense, this
    idea is nonsense.

I think .0 is a good idea in the wrong place and I would agree with some of 
the points in the previous replies but was there any need to say it was 
silly or nonsense?

Dave.

    In retrospect, I agree with -.1 -> my reaction was harsh.
    
    Since the orginal note came from Europe, perhaps this idea would
    be more culturally acceptable outside the US? I just feel that 
    travel for business is usually tiresome and stressful, and though
    I doubt this idea would ever be seriously entertained, my reactions
    to it were very strongly negative.

    I think the "staying with friends / relatives / fellow employees"
    is more interesting that being stuck in a hotel.  I've done both
    and would certainly want the choice.
    
    The US policy states: "Employees who stay with friends or relatives
    on a business trip are authorized a reimbursement of $20.00 per
    day or the local currency equivalent to provide the host with
    assistance in defraying the additional expenses of meals and lodging
    for the employee."
    
    The only additional I see suggested is a referral service.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams
    

    I think that Piet's idea was not intended to make it compulsory
    to stay with  friends or DEC colleagues but to set the possibility
    on a clearer basis i.e.
    
    Here in Nijmegen Digital "will reimburse the expense of a reasonable
    gift for the host in lieu of hotel costs, e.g. flowers or a bottle
    of wine. In no case may this expense exceed 50% of the hotel costs
    avoided."
    
    I am sure that most hosts would rather have $20 (as in .7) or some
    such amount rather than a bunch of flowers for max 50% of a $100 hotel bill
    avoided.
    
    I think that relatively few people here make use of the policy
    (because either they are not aware of the possibility and/or they
    do not have any family/friends/etc).
    
    I make no comments on those people who do not consider it necessary
    to look at the possibilities of saving DEC money.
    
    John Evans
    
    European Coordinator PIP (Productivity Improvement Program)
                           

     This concept  is not a new one!  In December 1973, when I moved back
     to MA from  CT to work for Raytheon Co.  (changing jobs from General
     Dynamics), Raytheon was paying  my  relocation  to  MA.    The RayCo
     Personnel Rep had the audacity  to  ask  me  if I could stay with my
     Parents for the month before my  Apt  would  be  available  (my Wife
     joined me in MA ~2 weeks after  I moved)!  Of course they would have
     paid some $10-20./day as a token to my Parents!  I wanted my freedom
     to come and  go  as  I pleased and it was unfair to inconvenience my
     Folks for 4 weeks, etc.  Of course, this would mean that  I  got  no
     reimbursement for eating  out at restaurants either!  Great deal for
     RayCo!
     
     Until recently, I  pinched  my  pennies  pretty  tight  (except  for
     vacations and eating out  in restaurants), but even when we go to CT
     for the Mystic Arts Festival  every August (and visit friends/former
     neighbors) we stay in a local  hotel/motel.    Oftentimes  we go out
     nightclubbing until 1-2AM and it is an imposition to anyone we might
     stay with.    Twice in the past 12 times (when we went to Mystic) we
     stayed  with  friends,    but    we   found  ourselves  bending  our
     schedules/activities so as not  to  inconvenience  our host/hostess!
     Now we go out to dinner with our friends or visit them when we go to
     Mystic but stay at a hotel/motel.
     
     NO way can I see staying  with  friends/relatives  when traveling on
     business!  I want to enjoy the  pool/sauna,  etc.    and  none of my
     friends have these amenities at their houses!   I have only traveled
     twice for DEC in 8 years (other than training seminars) and the trip
     to PNO was supposed to arrive at ~8:30-9PM, but due to  storms in CO
     area I got to hotel at  12:30AM!    I certainly wouldn't want anyone
     having to stay up for me that  late waiting for a plane that may not
     arrive!
     
     Also, the $20.00 cap on US policy is ridiculously low, have you ever
     tried  taking  a couple out  for  dinner  for  $20.00?    MacDonalds
     (Barf!!) here we come!!  Pardon  me,  but  when  I  go out to dinner
     (when I am paying) I usually spend  $20-30/person,  I'm not going to
     eat cheaply just because DEC is paying!  I would never inconvenience
     a  friend/relative  for such a paltry sum in return  (remember  your
     staying with them incurs real expenses for them, the $20.00  is  not
     all gravy!).  If I were to travel to an area with friends/relatives,
     I would try to go out to dinner with them, and visit  them,  but not
     stay  with  them.  [In defense of .0, I believe the European cap  on
     reimbursement is more credible.]
     

John Evans, .8
	> I make no comments on those people who do not consider it necessary
	> to look at the possibilities of saving DEC money.
    

    1.    I didn't hear any of the previous replies say the above or
    anything like it.  What we said (perhaps rather strenuously) was
    we didn't like THAT idea.  Out in the Field, we have many opportunities
    and direction on ways to cut expenses.  I've even voluntarily driven
    somewhere when I had the opportunity to fly, had classes cancelled
    that were approved for me to go to because I felt (and my manager
    agreed) that our training money would be better spent elsewhere.
    
    2.	Some of us directly generate revenue for DEC.  Personally, I have
    often generated more than 40 hours a week of revenue for DEC. I'm
    WC4. I don't get any extra even though I may generate extra for
    DEC.  That doesn't really bother me except when I hear comments
    like the above.  My work DIRECTLY goes to the bottom line.
    
    3. 	Perhaps most importantly, there is the image consideration.
    Here at the customer site where I work 40 (or more) hours a week,
    there are other contractors who work for a company which asks their
    employees to put some of the newly relocated people up in their
    homes, to taxi around those who don't have cars, etc....
    Granted, it's not an option like .0 was suggesting.  But many of
    the customers have said, in reference to this company, "Boy, what
    a penny-pinching, chickensh*t outfit.  DEC isn't like that, they're
    a CLASS ACT"  Personally, I like working for a company that treats
    it's employees like professionals, rather than warm bodies that
    they can generate revenue from.  
   
    
    
    

There are sensible ways of saving money and stupid ones.

If I have a choice between a hotel at $80/day and one at $40/day and know
that it isn't worth paying double (have been there before) I will use the
$40 hotel.  If I haven't been somewhere I will tend to use a more expensive
hotel as it is less likely to be a lousy place. 

I have had friends invite me to stay with them on a future trip.  In 
general I don't do this because I feel that it is a real nuisance to them 
if, for example, I have to work very late in the evening.

jb

    
    Speaking of penny pinching:
    
    	Use your car $.21 per mile.
    
    	My car cost me $.67 per mile last year.
    
    	Reimbursed 1/3 of cost.
    
        Now if I take a Taxi will I be Reimbursed 100%?
    

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Note XXX.0                     CISS- 2 WEEKS AFTER                    No replies
JGO::BERKERS                                         36 lines  22-JAN-1988 04:45
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    The CISS-concept, not new as I already stated, was (re)introduced
    a few weeks ago. It makes sense to evaluate the reactions; they
    appeared to be mostly very emotional (which wasn't my intention)
    so I decided to evaluate the concept and its reaction on another
    playground (i.e. another note).
    
    Originally the idea was meant on a completely voluntarily basis
    just to encourage people who are already staying with collegeas
    to keep on doing so (and thus saving money!).
    Futhermore I had the intention of making the concept an official and
    businesslike policy (on a voluntarily basis), which avoids embarrasing 
    situations (like what to give to the host?).  
    
    I completely agree with some replies in 440.* which indicate that
    in several cases the concept will NOT be applicable (visiting shows: 440.1).
    But I presume that everyone can think of situations where it is
    worthwile: you go to have dinner with collegue, have some drinks
    and you get a ride to your hotel. In the morning the same collegea will pick
    you up again.
    In this situation CISS will save half of the hotel bill and there
    is big trouble (hosts with 4 children and a 2 bedroom-house will
    not become an official CISS-host: 440.3). 
    I am sure that you all recognize travels like this. 
    
    Some replies showed however that people didn't understand the
    CISS-concept (f.i. 440.4 and *.12); what me disappointed me most was the
    fact that staying in expensive hotels is considered to be a
    prerequisite for a $ 1.000...... company and to be considered as
    a professional.
    Digital would not be the first company going bankrupt by this kind
    of megalomania......
    
    This is my last contribution on CISS.
    
    Piet Berkers
                                     

    After looking through this topic, I have to agree with the
    majority.  I think the idea is good if you are on personal business
    and you don't have to work all day. From the host side, I think
    the money would't be worth the hassel and also it is a restriction
    of ones personal freedom, which is highly respected in the USA.
    I have lived in Europe for many years now, and I understand the
    mentality.  There is a strong "public" social awareness, stemming
    from the last two wars when public services were non-existent for
    the most part. The social network is very thick because of this.
    
    Therefore, I think it would be more acceptable in Europe than
    in the states, but just the same, most of the people I work
    with here would flip if they "had" to travel this way.
    
    Peter