Conference 7.286::digital

    
    	I have NEVER heard of such a thing!  It has to be wrong.
    	Ask your personnel rep or manager to clarify what policy
    	or common practise is being quoted here.
    
    	Are there any special circumstances, such as an interview
    	being held hundreds of miles away?
    
    	

     RE: .0
     
     There was  a  previous  discussion  about  this, probably in DIGITAL
     Conference (~2 years ago or so).
     
     I do not  believe  that there is any "formal" DEC policy about this,
     thus leaving it up  to  the descretion of your management.  However,
     in each group that I  have  worked  in  it  has  been an (unwritten)
     policy and practice to allow the  time  off  required  to  interview
     within  DEC,  and  to pay mileage for interplant interviews.   [BTW:
     This included Manufacturing  and  Engineering organizations, and was
     true for WC1, 2, and 4's (we had no WC3's).]
     
     My Wife was a DEC-TAG (WC2) for  2+  years  and was allowed time off
     for DEC interviews (for permanent positions).
     
     If someone is telling you that you must  take  vacation time or lose
     pay in order for you to take interviews, I  would  discuss  it  with
     them.  If this fails, use the "open door" policy  and talk with your
     Supervisor's  Manager  and Personnel, if necessary.  In the past few
     years we have hired a lot of  management  personnel from outside DEC
     and many have not assimilated the "DEC culture",  thus  they may try
     to invoke policies that reflect the way things were  done  in  their
     previous  companies,  not  necessarily the way DEC tries to "do  the
     right thing" for its employees.
     
     Good luck.

    The Internal Transfer Policy is Section 2.05 of the P&P.  It states,
    among other things, that the employee is responsible for notifying
    "his/her current manager prior to beginning a formal interview process
    with another group", and that the Manager/Supervisor is responsible
    to "encourage [the] employee to do research and informational
    interviewing around career goals."
    
    As I have applied this in the past, interviewing is part of career
    development, which should be the goal of every manager-employee
    relationship, and therefore is on company time.
    
    However, I suggest you talk to your manager, if you haven't already.
    
    Bruce

    Thanks all for the notes.  I quess the special circumstances are
    that I have had a chronic illness and have had absenses because
    of it.  My management feel then need me working not out ill or 
    interviewing and that the needs of the business come first...
    
    MaggieT

    Maggie, illness and sick time "should" be a separate issue, unless
    you have used ALL your sick time.  If you have not, your manager
    should be letting you interview during company time.  I would go
    to Personnel and complain.  Sounds like a bit of management harrassment
    to me.  Stick up for your rights and good luck.  
    
    Marilyn  
     

When I was a WC 2 I never had to use vacation time for interviews. Not
even when I had to travel and stay over night. They paid for the car
rental, the motel  and the whole works. Sounds pretty odd to me that you
would have to use vacation time.

Jenna

    In the course of 6 months, I had at least 6 interviews.  Of these,
    4 involved overnight travel.  My management required the interviewer's
    cost center to pay for the travel, and wanted me to keep the interviews
    from interfering with customer requirements.  There was no question
    that interviewing was considered company business to be done on
    company time, though.

    The first paragraph of the Internal Transfer Policy seems to agree
    that interviewing and transferring is business:
    
Digital's greatest  asset is our employees and our success depends totally on
them.  As Digital grows, our employees grow.  As we accommodate our expanding
business needs, we will  strive  to  accommodate  the  career  needs  of  our
employees  through internal transfer.   It  is  the  responsibility  of  both
employees and management to assure that these needs are met.

>>    My management feel then need me working not out ill or 
>>    interviewing and that the needs of the business come first...

    It sounds like Digital needs you to be growing, too.  Your management
    may not understand that their need for your immediate efforts must
    be balanced against this.

    Hang in there!
    Bob

>    Thanks all for the notes.  I quess the special circumstances are
>    that I have had a chronic illness and have had absenses because
>    of it.  My management feel then need me working not out ill or 
>    interviewing and that the needs of the business come first...
    
    MaggieT,

	I don't want to sound critical or anything .... but ... is your
	cronical illness documented by a doctor ?  I mean when your sick your
	sick but when someone is out of work consistently 1 or two days a
	week for an extended period of time it's a subject that can be 
	questionable.  Sometimes it is an indication of someone's dissatis-
	faction with one's job or environment.  Again, though it IS a 
	managememnt problem as it should be corrected in an appropriate 
	manner (denying you common courtesy is NOT the proper method).

	
	CHA

    More information -1>
    
    I have used up all my sicktime to date.  My illness is documented
    and I have been to several specialists and the company doctor. 
    They all agree that I have a chronic illness and that I may or may
    not be disabled according to company criteria, not medical criteria.
    All doctors agree that there will be times when I am ill.  But somehow
    my illness and status have to "be resolved"..before I can interview.
    
    I can use my vacation time to interview as it is considered "my
    time".                       
    
    MaggieT

    
    My "eight" manager in 14 months just sent me a memo containing the
    following paragraph:
    
    "It is important that you understand that before you make arrangements
    for any interview you will need to notify me of the job that you
    are interested in.  I will then contact the hiring manager to find
    out more about the job and confirm my approval for you to interview
    for the job.  This is to be followed without exception, even if
    I am not readily available."
    
    It should be noted that I am definitely NOT under any time obligation
    regarding my present position, group and department.
    
    This manager's memo seems incorrect to me and has a tone of
    intimidation, which does not seem the Digital "right thing" to do,
    especially if one has been seriously derailed in their chosen career
    after extensive management reorganization over a 14 month period.
    
    As I interpret personnel policy, I only have to notify my manager
    that I have posted for a Digital position, and that the manager
    should NOT be contacting the hiring manager prior to my interviewing
    nor should I require any approval to interview for any position
    that I desire to explore.
    
    Opinions?
    
    Official policy? (yes, I will be contacting my local personnel rep).
    
    Am I being over sensitive or am I being intimidated?
    
    

    re .10
    
    Personnel policy #2.05 (Internal Transfer Policy) dated August 26 1985
    states, in the section headed Employee Responsibilities, that "It is
    expected that an employee will inform his/her current manager prior to
    beginning a formal interview process with another group". 
    
    Having said that, the tone of the note from your manager is more than a
    little intimidatory.

    Are there any reasons why your manager may be feeling paranoic ?
    i.e. has he/she had half of his/her staff leave recently and therefore
    feeling under some pressure or something similarly disturbing ?

    good luck.
    
    Jon    

    Re: .10
    
    Sounds to me like your manager has a hair up part of his/her anatomy,
    if you catch my drift.
    
    Good luck with Personnel.
    
    

    I agree with .12, except that I was thinking a banana or corn cob
    instead of a hair.
    
    I've interviewed many times.  Your obligation is to inform your
    manager that you are seeking a position elsewhere within the company.
    His/Her obligation is to help you.  Based on the tone of that memo,
    I think I might opt to decline such "help".
    
    Good luck
    Jon

    Some additiona information/help:
    
    1) Get everything in writing, including a statement that both you and
       your manager sign (and date) that indicates that s/he knows that 
       you are looking for another position within Digital.
    
    2) Normally, the manager is not supposed to contact the hiring group
       until *after* you have accepted the position (although the hiring
       group obviously can call your manager up to get an opinion  - why I
       always have several other references to be contacted first).  I
       don't think that you are obligated to tell your manager specifically
       who you are interviewing with, just that you are interviewing
       *somewhere*.

    
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, however I thought that you could
    go on as many informal interviews as you desired, only when you
    were going to apply for a position formally you are required to
    notify your manager.  Is this the case ?
    
    Lv

        You're not on written warning or anything, are you?  Although
        I don't know you personally, I've always had the sense that
        you're a good employee with a fairly level head, and motivated
        to do what's good for Digital and its customers.
        
        The statement from your manager, if you've quoted it correctly,
        seems a bit out of line to me.  I'd want to make sure that my
        local personnel representative agreed with it before I took the
        open-door approach to escalate the matter.
        
        Tom

    re .15, no Larry, that's not true.  All you need to tell your current
    manager, as mentioned earlier, is that you're looking/interviewing
    *somewhere*.  It's up to you whether you want to tell him/her where,
    what group, or even what city or country.  And a good interviewing
    manager will not even conduct a formal interview unless you have
    already told your current manager that you're looking.  How much
    you tell your current manager (outside of the fact that you are
    looking/interviewing) is entirely up to you and the kind of
    relationship that you have with your current manager.
    
    Jon

  In recent memory, I changed jobs under extremely difficult cir-
  cumstances.  Contrary to the counsel of friends, coworkers, and
  relatives, I did not escalate anything and instead, decided to
  grit my teeth and bear it.  In retrospect, I would say that this
  was the wrong decision (although a few good bits of luck caused
  the result to work out okay in the long run).

  If you and your manager are both being reasonable, things won't become
  nasty.  If things *HAVE* become nasty, it's probably evidence that
  either you or your manager is *NOT* being reasonable.  If it's your 
  manager not being reasonable, then your being nice won't help -- It
  will just leave you feeling cheated and bitter, and leaves a bad man-
  ager loose in the DEC system, with their behavior reinforced by another
  "success".  If I were back in *MY* old position faced with the same
  problem again, I'd "open door" it for sure.  I'd also have my attorney
  do some of my talking for me.

  From other replies, you (now) know the policy.  Confirm it with 
  Personnel.  Then, with Personnel present (!), inform your manager
  via a written memo that s/he is incorrect and that you will do what
  is required by the Orange book.  If the manager comes around, fine,
  immediately forgive and forget.  Otherwise, immediately escalate!

                                   Atlant

    
    Could someone clarify something for me. I recently talked to someone
    who took the Dec Skills assesment/career management class, and I
    vaguely recall them saying that an employee is entitled to take
    "informational interviews" for other jobs, without notifying
    their manager. The context was for someone who was interested
    in getting information on a new geographic or career area, but not
    applying for a specific job. Then, if they were interested at a
    later time, they could notify their manager and do a formal
    transfer process. The informational interviewer was obliged by policy
    not to disclose anything to the employees manager
    
    
    Anyone heard of this? Im curious, just curious.
    

    RE:.19
    
    "Informational interviews" are just that.  If you go to another
    department and ask them what they do and what skills are needed
    that is an informational interview.  I did one a few years ago where
    there was a group doing a project that I thought I might have some
    interest in.  After talking with the manager/supervisor I found
    out that it was not something I would be interested in.
    
    If you answer an open req or send someone a current resume for a
    particular position that is NOT an "informational interview" which
    follows since you were looking for a particular JOB not information.
    
    	/s/	Roger
    

    It's not been mentioned _why_ this policy which appears to limit the
    authority of one's manager exists:
    
    It's needed to establish some sort of equity between interviewing
    internally and interviewing externally (ie resigning from Digital).
    
    There's no reading of the policy quoted earlier that I can interpret to
    authorize .10 to make those demands.  Obviously, there's an unsaid
    agenda item implying the manager has a large role in the career
    management of his employees that is neither backed up by custom or
    policy at Digital.  Is this guy a new manager?
    

    This topic has reminded me of an item of curiosity that came up
    about a year ago.   A friend of mine, a secretary, had decided to
    look for a new job.  Doing the *right* thing, she went to her manager
    to inform him that she would like to go out interviewing.  His response
    to her was something akin to "fine, but don't do it on 'my' time".
    His issue was secretarial coverage while she was away.  
    
    I can understand this to an extent (i.e., limit the time away from
    the office to some reasonable agreed-upon percentage perhaps), but
    I can't understand a blanket statement that she COULD NOT interview
    between 8:15-5:00.  As it was, she ended up doing all her interviews
    after 5:00.
    
    My advice to her at the time was to see Personnel.  Fortunately,
    a job came up before it became an issue.  Since she never found
    out an answer, I'm curious what others think about it.
    
    By the way, she was looking for a job in a local DEC office.
    
    Any comments?
    
     

        To the best of my knowledge, none of us are slaves to any
        particular job in the Corporation.  At least, I don't think
        that is the intent of any Personnel Policy.
        
        In fact, DEC's personnel policies encourage both personal and
        career growth.  Each employee should find the job (which may
        change over time) where he or she can be most productive and
        useful.
        
        Specifically regarding .22, how did this manager address other
        "time" requirements, such as training?  Was that also "Not on my
        time"?  There are always local abberations in the system..
        
        A more reasonable response (one that's not likely to drive the
        employee away out of spite) would be to ask that some kind of
        arrangement be made to provide coverage for the employee's
        function while he or she is out of the office.  It's not totally
        unreasonable to make this the employee's responsibility, as
        long as the manager will support the employee in finding backup
        resources.  (In other words, this should be done to block the
        employee from going on interviews.)
        
        Tom

    
    Ref: 432.10
    
    This new manager has been with Digital for over ten years.
    
    I challenged the manager on this, stating I believed it was not
    Digital personnel policy nor the right thing to be doing on the
    manager's part, namely telephoning a hiring manager to see the
    qualifications in order to approve any individual's right to interview
    for a new position within Digital.
    
    After meeting with the manager, the manager acknowledged that the memo
    was incorrect.  The manager acknowledged that I had a right to explore
    any new position, and if invited to interview, to do so, without the
    manager contacting the hiring manager. 
    
    It was apparent that this manager, and many I suspect, do not read
    the personnel policy manual, which must be evident by someone at
    Corporate since the manual is now available in some places on VTX.
    
    The overall tone of the meeting was positive, with us agreeing to
    Digital's stated policies that a manager should assist their employees
    in planning their career development within Digital, support that
    development, provide continuing feedback on performance, provide
    information on future opportunities and access to other groups,
    encourage and support research and exploration into other Digital
    opportunities, and to provide overall support for personal growth.
    
    In my opinion, written policies, personnel departments and the open
    door policy are in existence for a purpose; and in the Digital
    tradition, every employee is expected to locate, know about, and
    utilize Digital resources as appropriate to a given situation.
    
    I was very satisfied with the outcome of the meeting -- it was
    necessary, however, to speak up, and to be willing to face a potential
    conflict for what I believed was "right thing" to do.
    
    If one is afraid to speak up, to use personnel and the open door
    policy, and written Digital philosophies and personnel policies,
    then these things cannot benefit anyone who has a problem.
    
    One must work within the system, using the mechanisms in place;
    if one does, I believe the values instilled by KO into Digital will
    protect the individual employee from intimidation and abuse.
     
    My apologies if I sound to "preachy" today.

    

    re .24
    
    I'm pleased you came to a successful conclusion of this situation.
    
    Good luck for the future,
    
    Jon