Conference 7.286::digital

    Filling out your JOQ eh?

>    One school of thought is that a systems programmer is responsible
>    for "installation, generation, maintenance, debugging and tuning
>    of operating systems software".
 
System managers do this stuff now, although systems people are capable of doing
the above.
    

>    Another is that systems programmers actually do design/coding of
>    operating systems.
    
This sounds like the right one. At least this is what I do.
    

re: .0

  From what I've seen (at our customers), in smaller shops, the Systems 
Programmer is part-time system manager (because this isn't usually a 
full-time job in a smaller shop), part-time troubleshooter ("Why did I 
get this access violation ?"), and part-time bare-metal programmer.

  The latter is usually necessary in shops with gangs of applications 
programmers who know little about VAXen and/or VMS, and need help with 
things like system services and RTL routines.

re: .1

  What's a "JOQ" ?

  - Larry.

    Re -1: 
> re: .1
>
>  What's a "JOQ" ?
    
    JOQ is Job Overview Questionnaire, part of the Job Evaluation and
    Classification (JEC) program. Your manager will be talking to you
    about this soon.

    JOQ is part of the JEC which, if you are selected, also includes
    filling out a JEQ with a #2 pencil.

    Virginia Road has been selected as test mice.

       re .3:
       
       > What's a "JOQ"? 
       
       It's a type of Strap.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    Not to digress or anything, but in response to .0 about System
    Programmers - 
    
    The term System Programmer is generally used in the non-DEC mainframe
    world (IBM, CDC, etc.) to refer to someone who installs and maintains
    the operating system and its associated programs.  This is a much
    more difficult task than a Digital System Manager - (even an RSX11-M
    System Manager :-))  Non-Digital operating systems tend to be VERY
    difficult to install; a typical installation will take upwards of
    2 months for a staff of 4 or 5 System Programmers.  Usually, one
    mainframe is supported by about 3 or 4 System Programmers.  They
    must know the internals of the operating system very well, as well
    as the user interfaces to the operating system.  
    
    I'm not sure what the term System Programmer would refer in Digital,
    maybe a VMS developer.
    
    Steve

    I tell people outside DEC I am a "systems programmer" so that they
    don't think I write Cobol payroll applications or can help them
    with their IBM PC Basic programs, or answer their MS-DOS questions.
    
    What I am actually am is a principal software engineer currently
    working the the SEG CAD group, usually doing operating-system specific
    pieces of code (such as nontransparent DECnet communications), although
    at the moment I am actually working on what I would call an
    "applications" program (coupling capacitance extraction).

re: 415.7
    
>    I'm not sure what the term System Programmer would refer in Digital,
>    maybe a VMS developer.

In 1973, the name of the "Systems Programming" department here at DEC was
changed to "Software Engineering".  Since I don't remember my job changing 
when the name changed, I guess I'd agree with you.

Ray

    re: 415.7
    
>    I'm not sure what the term System Programmer would refer in Digital,
>    maybe a VMS developer.

    We do still develop and sell operating systems other then VMS you
    know. What are those developers? Chopped liver? 
    
    		Alfred
    	Ex-RSTS Developer who thought he'd been doing System Programming

    Anytime you write code having ";;" delimiting comment field, you
    know you have graduated to the level of system programmer.
    
    - Vikas

re: 415.10

>    We do still develop and sell operating systems other then VMS you
>    know. What are those developers? Chopped liver? 

Pate' de RSTS Engineer!  What a concept!

I read the comment to mean that they are members of the set.  (When the 
name changed (in early '73) there was no VMS project, and therefore no VMS
engineers.  I worked on the PDP-11 COBOL compiler project.) 

Ray

>    One school of thought is that a systems programmer is responsible
>    for "installation, generation, maintenance, debugging and tuning
>    of operating systems software".

    As a former Systems Programmer at my alma mater, I would agree with
    this definition of the job.  The computer vendor (in my case Burroughs)
    designed/coded the operating system.  I installed it, and made sure
    the users were happy with it.  The job involved a little of everything,
    from running wires under the floor to hook up terminals, to modifying
    the data comm software to allow use of a new set of function keys,
    to spending endless hours trying to get good performance from a
    memory-deficient system.   Ah, that brings back memories...
    
    Marc
    

    The descriptions in .7 and .13 pretty well cover what a systems
    programmer in a non-DEC equipment environment is.  I worked as a
    "systems programmer" in an IBM-equipped shop and did most
    of those things.  I also supported the operation of products like
    IMS and CICS and did disk space management and VSAM catalog management
    and ... ad infinitum.
    
    In my experience with DEC customers, when they use the term systems
    programmer they are ususally referring to someone who knows enough
    operating system internals to write device drivers, add some kind
    of monitoring package (a la SECURPAK), that accesses system data
    structures, etc., whether they are in a VMS environment, RSX*
    environment, RSTS environment, etc.  (My apologies to the writers of
    the other DEC operating systems I left out -- I don't fancy any
    of you as pate!)  A system programmer also should be able to tune the
    system *and* know why, etc. so I would agree with .3 as a
    good description from the point of view of the DEC customer.
    
    The people who write the operating systems, and even the DEC "system
    software" and "layered software" products, are ususally viewed as
    software engineers by DEC customers, not system programmers.  The
    term software engineer has come to be applied to anyone who writes
    software beyond the level of commercial applications (rightly or
    wrongly), so in some ways the whole area of job titles has become
    confusing, but I think that these are fairly common interpretations
    of the terms outside of DEC.
    
    (A word of apology to MIS -- especially DIS -- professionals:
     there is no slight intended in my comment "beyond the level of
     commercial applications".  It is simply a matter of how the common
     useage of the terminology shakes out.)
    
    Norm