Conference 7.286::digital

    In my experience with Digital, all job postings state educational
    prerequisites "or equivalent experience (stated)".
    
    Marge
    

    I suspect that the rules may vary from country to country. I understand
    that in the United States requiring a degree for most jobs could
    result in an affirmative action lawsuit. Obviously, this does not
    apply to certain jobs, such as legal counsel or physician, for which
    the degree is a legal requirement. But for most jobs, the statement
    is "xxx or equivalent" for this reason.
    
    (as moderator, I changed to topic title to better describe the subject
    for future reference.)

    Re .2:
    
>   I suspect that the rules may vary from country to country. I understand
>   that in the United States requiring a degree for most jobs could
>   result in an affirmative action lawsuit.
    
    I really doubt that. In the US, ANYONE can get a college education.
    In most cases, the choice to complete a degree program is indeed
    a choice.
    
    Private schools don't have to accept any applicant, but in most
    State run schools, most places (in my experience) have to accept
    anyone with a high-school diploma (or GED) by law. They can flunk
    you out after that, but they MUST give you a chance.
    
    If money is the issue, there are a lot of Financial Aid programs
    available from Federal Grants to Federal Loans to work-study. You
    may not fit the degree in on the standard 4-year term, but if you
    stick with it, it can be done. Night scool CAN take a long time.
    
    But, I agree that any job req should read "degree or eqivalent
    experience". I didn't learn RSX internals at college, they didn't
    teach it. Some companies have tables that say "X years in this
    job area = a BS" for personnel's use.
    
    Jim
    
    (who was on the 10-year plan himself)

    
    Whilst you may have the right approaches and attitudes within the
    U.S. please note that this is a UK based group.
    
    It has been said that degrees are somewhat easier to obtain in the
    US than the UK. After all, here, there are insufficient university
    places for all those who are qualified to take them.

    RE: .4
    	That's not what I hear.  I've heard that in the UK anyone passing
    some level of "A" level can qualify for some university somewhere,
    since tuition doesnt seem to be a factor in the UK.  I'm interested,
    pls reply.
    
    Keith
    
    

    From my own experience, it would appear that the engineering groups
    are the only ones who seem to place much emphasis on the old sheepskin.
    This topic was discussed in this conference about a year ago under
    the title (something like) "The elusive engineering title".
    
    Jon

re:.3
>    Private schools don't have to accept any applicant, but in most
>    State run schools, most places (in my experience) have to accept
>    anyone with a high-school diploma (or GED) by law. They can flunk
>    you out after that, but they MUST give you a chance.
>    
>    If money is the issue, there are a lot of Financial Aid programs
>    available from Federal Grants to Federal Loans to work-study. You
>    may not fit the degree in on the standard 4-year term, but if you
>    stick with it, it can be done. Night scool CAN take a long time.

    I wonder what state you're from!  In the US, education is a state
    (and local) matter, and many states don't have "open enrollment"
    universities.  New York City installed it at its City University
    around 1968, and it's very cheap too, but across the sewer in NJ
    the state colleges are selective.  Community Colleges (2 year) are
    pretty much open, but their Associates degrees aren't worth too
    much.  (If you do well there, you might be let into a 4-year school
    to finish your Bacchalaureate.)

    Personally I've found that having a EE degree doesn't correlate
    at all to skill at engineering.  People like Jeremy who learn on
    the job, or on their own, are the BEST engineers because they learned
    it for real and not just the silly book-larnin that the schools
    rely on.  But that's another flame.
         fred (E-track but no engineering degree)

    
    RE .5
    
    Keith
    		whilst working at The University of London from 1980-83
    I was in the Association of University Teachers (AUT). One of the
    AUT's biggest bones to pick with Keith Joseph as Education Secretary
    was that he reduced funding to the Universities such that only about
    85% of those applying would get a place, regardless of qualification.

        If you wish more clarification, let's take this into mail as this
    is a side-issue }ito the topic.
    
    Andy
    

    re English degrees and ease of getting into university.
    
    All Universities (I'm not sure about Scotland, but it is true
    of England and Wales) screen applicants through the Universities Central
    Council on Admissions (UCCA). The year before you wish to apply you
    fill in a UCCA form. You may apply for up to 5 courses, no more. They
    send copies of your application to the five faculties involved. You
    may get no interviews, or all five may offer you an interview.
    
    If you do not already have A-levels then any offer made will be subject
    to getting certain grades in cetain subjects (for example Manchester
    and Liverpool Universities both offered me degree places provided I
    got a grade 'A' pass in mathematics, further mathematics and physics
    - Manchester also wanted a grade 'B' in "some other scientific subject")
    
    After you have received two offers if you receive a third you must drop
    one you already hold.
    
    When the exam results are published you must take the highest place
    for which you are qualified.
    
    Through this process 95% of places are filled (Universities "over offer"
    much the same way airlines over book). After that there is a
    gap of about 4 weeks before the start of term when you can apply in
    person to a university in the hope of getting a place. Very few succeed,
    mainly because the Universities take the point of view that if you are
    trying this process you clearly didn't want to go there originally and
    so probably aren't the sort they want.
    
    And yes the previous comment is accurate there are more qualified students
    than places for them: many courses have as many as twenty applicants
    for each vacancy. And the situation gets worse as time goes on and
    successive governments continue to prune university budgets.
             
    The only good part about the system is that you get a grant on which
    you can starve for 3 or 4 years, and unless your parents are rich the
    state pays the tuition fees.
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    PS Oxford & Cambridge also have their own entrance exams so you can
    bypass UCCA if you can pass the exam.
    
    Also in many places it still helps you through the interview if your
    parents went there too.

    Re: Group located in Britain.
    
    Sorry, not good at mapping Nodes to geography. I admit that schools
    out of the US are quite different.
    
    Re: Open Admission Policies.
    
    I guess it does vary from state to state. My experiences with KY
    and VA has been that admission is quite simple and the fees fairly
    cheap (as compared to private colleges). I would imagine that the
    amount of Federal subsidies that the institution receives could
    influence that a great deal. With Federal funds come a whole new
    set of guidelines (and paperwork).
    
    Either way. I still stick to my guns that a req should read "or
    equivalent experience". Yeah, colleges can teach theory from here
    to next Thursday, but OJT teaches one how to actually do it. As
    a matter of fact, it is very common for companies to totally 
    "retrain" their new graduate hires. The theory is that higher
    education teaches you how to think. Actual experince teaches you
    how to do.
    
    Jim
    

    
    Regarding all the previous notes on this subject can the same be
    said of managers "blocking" moves by people for "business reasons"
    i.e. someone wants to make what they think is a career move but
    the manager of the group decides that it is not in the best interests
    of the business to transfer that person as he is putting an
    organisation in place to deal with business.
    
    Is this a subject for a separate note??

    I think it is a seperate note and a better explanation, please.

I have moved this note to this already existing topic.  For reference, Topic
#119, The elusive "engineering title"?, may also be of use.  /john
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Note xxx.0                     promotions to Eng.                        1 reply
FROST::BARBER                                        14 lines   1-JUL-1987 13:25
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    I would like to know if there are plants that give promotions from
    Tech to Engineer.
    
    The reason I ask is because in the past our plant has done this.
    However, over the last 6 mos personnel is insisting that a person
    has to have a BS degree to become an Engineer.  Regardless of that
    persons experience. I personally think experience could be accepted
    in lieu of a BS degree.  
    
    What are you plant policies around this?
    
    donna B.
    BTO
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Note xxx.1                     promotions to Eng.                         1 of 1
HYDRA::ECKERT "Jerry Eckert"                          8 lines   1-JUL-1987 13:47
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    I don't know all the details, but I think there is some kind of
    review board process (the name Engineering Review Board (ERB)
    comes to mind) that handles this.
    
    I'll forward your note to someone who may be able to provide
    a better answer.
    
    	- Jerry

    I have been involved in promoting techs to engineers and
    there are 2 official methods.
    
    1 - get a degree
    
    2 - pass a review board process, this is similar to interviewing
    for a job, if the interviewers would hire person as an engineer
    the tech gets promoted. 
    
    - gerry

I recently got promoted from Tech to Engineer with only an associates
degree. It might be a unique situation in that I did go thru a 9 month
DEC training program with several other people. But other than that
I still don't have a BS (although I have several college credits towards
one). After the program there were some managers who refused to hire us 
as Engineers but many more that were willing to take us to fill a dire
need within the company. Last I knew it was up to the manager and in the
case of one plant (take a guess, Donna) there was a manager who would take 
me as an eng. and one who wanted to keep me a tech.

Jenna