Conference 7.286::digital

    How am I in California (or Colorado or ...) going to be able to
    afford to dial up the the notes netowrk?  TYMNET?  Hmm. I spend
    about 2 hours a day reading non-work notefiles.  TYMNET, let's say,
    cost $1/hr.  Then I would spend $500/yr (excluding weekends) on
    notes.  I cannot afford that.  If we have the uVAXen spread out
    across the country, the telecommunication costs would kill us.
    
    BTW, there is an independent noters network.  It's called USENET.
    Digital owns (aka supports with $$$ and hw) two of the major backbone
    sites (decvax and decwrl).  This costs mucho diskspace (my node,
    muscat, receives 2+MB of news EACH DAY at 1200 baud).  Also decwrl
    and decvax dial up and exchange news with sites all over the country.
    The phone bills are not small.  Where is all this leading?
    
    Hosts that feed articles to other sites are considered to be common
    carriers (even though they store the transmitted article).  Why
    is NOTES different?  Digital supplies $$$ for diskspace, hw, and
    communications for USENET.  It does the same with NOTES.  The only
    difference I can see is that NOTES are internal.  It this such an
    important difference?
    
    just rambling
    matt
    
    

        Honest  comment follows...
        
        Damn stupid idea!
        
        What about the rest of the world. Is your notes network, willing
        to fund Satellite links to Australia, and Europe etc. A 9600
        Baud link to Australia will cost circa $200K per annum. add
        a Node at this end. Add persons to adminstrate. you are talking
        a several million dollar a year budget. 
        
        Stop tring to find alternatives, Ed. and work towards forcing
        the issue. Management of Digital has a responsibility to remove
        obscenity etc from its' organization. (a la removing flirts
        and sexcetera). Product specific noting is valid (nay mandatory).
        
        Noting on other "personal" non-offensive topics is to be regarded
        as an employee benefit, the same as the What's on in Maynard
        magazines etc that propogate throughout the organization, or
        the Livewire VTX's. The organization knows full well that if
        it started to removes those benefits, it would have a hard
        time keeping people.
        
        If "non-business" notes go, then the AP news hooks and the
        "Vogon News Service" should be pulled out, Employees should
        have to provide their own pencils and paper, Buy their own
        Magtapes from Decdirect. and so on ad-nauseum.
        
        Silly Idea  ...  I could poo-hoo it for ages but only do so
        under further provocation.
        
        q
        

    Agree again.  See 111.125 which I wrote before I saw this independant
    note.
    
    Jon

    If the principal (principle ?) purpose is to unhook dec from liability,
    then I doubt very much that it would be technically practical or
    affordable to most of the contributing individuals.  Dec is involved in
    providing equipment unless the whole thing is absolutely innaccessable
    from any equipment owned by dec, whether on or off of their premises
    i.e. any proposed note_net would have to be only accessable from
    at_home equipment that is NOT there on a property pass.  No problem for
    me, but lotsa folks would have to buy their own modems and terminals
    for at home use, <set mode paranoid> this could also stimulate a corp
    wide recall of at home equipment to "make sure" that the wrong thing is
    not being done.  Of course, no connections to ANY dec supported net
    could be permitted.  I believe that if we can't use a little of
    dec's resources for free and can't afford our own exclusive net
    then non_work_related notes could have to go away.  (Yes, I'm doing
    this in what is nominally company time, I'll work fifteen minutes
    into my lunch 3*hour/4 to make it up, OK ? :-))

    	Reg
    

    Re .0 :-
    
    >      Before a proposal like this can even be begun, many possibilities
    >  need to be raised and hashed through. As a place to start, I am
    >  right now most interested in cost-benefit metrics concerning different
    >  hardware configurations.

    Ed, as a place to start, you've got it all wrong.  What you are
    talking about is starting an independent business that is going
    to sell a service to a defined market; Digital employees.  If you
    are really serious about starting it up the first thing you need
    to develop is a Business Plan.
    
    You need to specify your target market and size it.  You need to define
    your product and price it.  From those two you can work out how much
    income you can generate to fund your equipment and premises. NOW you
    can begin to think about what equipment you'll need.  You will probably
    find that, like most businesses just starting up, you need more than
    just the income can provide.  So you can take your Business Plan to
    your bank manager and ask for some venture capital.
    
    I could go on to finding premises, employees etc. etc.  From this
    you might gather there is an easier alternative.
    
    Forget it!!!
    
    
    
    Graham 

    If you want to create a subsitute for the communications channel
    that is being lost, the most affordable, accessable, way to
    do it would be by setting up a SIG on CompuServe*.  They have the
    communications network & don't charge very much.

    It would NOT be as good as having the company recognise noting as:
    (1) Load-testing for our products
    (2) A very popular employee activity
    (3) Part of the Employee Assistance Program
     
* Or DELPHI, or whatever.  Compuserve is the largest & most accessable.
    

    A horrible idea.   By definition, you couldn't put anything related to
    the company on it (since it isn't a company-owned net). For example,
    since DIGITAL.NOT talks about DEC culture and internal workings of the
    company, that conference wouldn't exist.    Then, who will administer
    it?   Who will purchase the capital equipment?

        Score = 8 against      1 for
        
        Not a very popular idea, Ed...
        
        q
        

	I, too, vote against, for all the reasons NOTEd already.  It
        won't work.  Sorry.  An important part of what makes NOTES
        work is the world-wide network, and world-wide participation.
        
        On a different note, re: .3:

>        Stop tring to find alternatives, Ed. and work towards forcing
>        the issue. Management of Digital has a responsibility to remove
>        obscenity etc from its' organization. (a la removing flirts
>        and sexcetera). Product specific noting is valid (nay mandatory).

        Sir:  Please make sure you know of what you speak, before you
        cast aspersions.  As far as I know, you were NEVER a member of
        the FLIRTS conference, nor do I recall you being a frequent
        contributor to SEXCETERA (although I suppose you may have been
        one of the MANY voyeurs). 
        
        The first step is to get rid of the "obscene" conferences, and
        then the ones where people actually have the nerve to exchange
        ideas..  where does it stop? 
        
        Tom

        re .10 (re .3) Amend obscenity to read "potential socially
        unacceptable" or something similar.
        
        For all we know 
        
        Some crazed evangelists may
        Abstractly misconstrue
        This note
        As being religiously threatening to the
        Network.
        
        Take out the forced carriage returns and Upper Casing in the
        Last paragraph and it looks harmless enough.
        
        But contents of anything can be misconstrued. Who knows we
        may find the TPU Developers maligning WPSPlus in a related
        conference. Should the TPU conferences be shut down. If we
        can't have rational discussion on any topic, social or technical
        then 1984 really has hit us (just took a while to notice).
        
        This is probably the wrong note for this tirade, but it's all
        doomed for the bit bucket anyway.
                       
        
        q

    	OK, it's a stupid idea. I wanted to try, as a thought experiment,
    if it could be done in some reasonable way. My general reaction
    to irrational restrictions and authority are to ignore them. Until
    I understand what the rational principle that management is using
    towards NOTES conferences, and I cannot interpolate from my own
    experience, I must assume that the principle is not necessarily
    rational. This bothers me, and I'd rather not have something as
    important to me as Noting subject to the capriciousness of the "king".
    
    
    	I've also been wondering if NOTES could create a Network service
    (in general, not just for employees) competitively with Compuserve,
    et al. I still think it might, but I guess this isn't an appropriate
    trial arena.
    
    	Given this won't work for employees, I'm ready to work that
    much harder within the system, defining explicitly and officially
    how Notes should be run.
    
    	Ed
    

I have to agree that it doesn't seem feasible to somehow make DEC
employee noting as we know it, even just non-work-related noting,
independent of the company.

However, I think that "social" noting as a commercial service,
e.g. by Compuserve et al, would be a winning thing.  Perhaps
things are already evolving in that direction with bulletin
boards, SIGs, etc., and the only thing that makes DEC employee
noting different is that we have more advanced (especially
faster) technology.  A quite acceptable, attractive, and
reasonably priced noting service could well be provided over
regular dial-up lines using nothing more than dumb terminals and
the nation-wide dial-up facilities that already exist (e.g.
Tymnet, Telenet). 

Re  .10:  Amen.  See also 111.65.  What's needed is a commercial
service that would not impose stupid and narrow-minded
definitions of "obscenity" on the things that consenting adult
subscribers wished freely to discuss. 

There are indeed many commercial services that could be used -- that *are*
being used -- for the same purposes as many of our non-work related
notesfiles.  At various times in the past, I have warned co-workers
infatuated with DEC-subsidized computes that there was a price to pay.
It appears that the bill has arrived at last.  I don't oppose notesfiles.
I am just pointing out that if you really want to avoid potential hassles,
there are already plenty of places you can go to, acessible nationwide
and beyond.

Pat Hardy
Compuserve: 73125,471
Delphi: PATHARDY
Easylink: 62793052

re. -1

> notesfiles.  At various times in the past, I have warned co-workers
> infatuated with DEC-subsidized computes that there was a price to pay.
> It appears that the bill has arrived at last.  I don't oppose notesfiles.

	Ok Noah (:v), before you were ignored.  Now the rains have begun.
    Which of these public networks do you reccomend for the sort of non-
    work-related discussions that have previously enjoyed discussion via
    Vaxnotes?  How easy are they to access and use?  Not having ever used
    (or needed to use) any of these services, I guessed I'm biased towards
    using Digital Equipment for all my network access because I imagine
    anything else to be somewhat user-unfriendly (at least initially), and
    of course expensive on a continuing basis.  Not only that, but it seems
    a bit defeatist to think that DEC can't possibly offer a better solution
    to these sorts of human interaction needs in this modern world of instant
    feedback.

	Remember, as many people as there are at DEC who use Vaxnotes, we
    are still a small minority.  Most people I support barely know how to
    use their MAIL facility, much less Vaxnotes!  These unfortunate souls
    who have yet to learn about Vaxnotes are also the same people who will
    be most likely to need access to some of the non-work-related notesfiles
    to become "broken-in" to the networking culture.  I include the group
    so affectionately referred to as "middle-management" in the 111 note,
    along with a vast amount of others who have a great deal to offer to
    this electronic community.  The trouble is that it's so hard to even
    get these people interested enough to sit down at a terminal, much less
    begin using Vaxnotes.  My point here is (sorry for babbling) that these
    people are never going to use the network if they are also told that
    "anything they say may be used against them in a court of law".
    
	I have to agree that I share sort of an "I told you so" attitude
    about the current non-work-related usage of Digital Equipment, but I'm
    also afraid that we have only begun to touch the tip of iceberg here.
    What happens when we introduce full-color video bit-mapped images and
    graphics to this medium?  Are we going to be able to afford to monitor
    every bit (literally) of information which transpires over the network
    in search of "obscene, offensive, politically persuasive, etc." material?
    I think that once we weigh the cost of sufficiently and FAIRLY monitoring
    the ENET versus the cost of simply providing an easy-to-use alternative
    notes facility (similar to the way DCU works as a separate entity within
    the walls of DEC), then we will see the potential which such a venture
    would provide.

	Finally, why shouldn't DEC be interested in providing funds to get
    a public access network going which would not only allow for the free
    transmission of human interactions via DEC products such as Vaxnotes
    (which seems to be the only thing WE can't do anymore), but which would 
    also provide a way to hook in some real business $$$ for DEC in the long
    run?  I think we need to think about the rest of the world and it's
    future computing needs and expenditures as well as our own needs.

	I agree with Ed on the idea proposed in his original note (even though
    he seems to have since given-up on the idea - probably just peer pressure).
    Don't worry Ed, all good ideas initially meet with alot of negative
    reaction at first.  His is a proposal with the future in mind.

					-DAV0 THE FUTURISTIC

Is it a suprise that Compuserve and Delphi *both* run on Digital systems?

Compuserve uses a small army of PDP-10s and a few VAX, using their own 
software running over a highly modified layer of our stuff.  Delphi uses 
VAX/VMS...they have their own funky bulletin board software, but the 
electronic mail is our own familiar VAXmail.  It's possible that they will
pick up VAXnotes when it's available.  

As for user-friendliness, all I can say is that these services are used
by doctors, lawyers, authors, teachers, etc.   The Compuserve text editors
are gross (except for TECO, which is simply obscure) and one should compose
mail on a home computer -- it saves money.

You can subscribe to Compuserve by going to your local Radio Shack
or computer store and buying a sign-up kit.  You'll have to phone
Delphi for a starter kit -- I'll look up the number and post it 
here.  I'll also look up the rates and post 'em so people can see
what ordinary non-DEC mortals suffer with.  Compuserve has the larger
phone network -- they've got direct lines in most large cities (such as
the teeming metropoli of Maynard and Hudson!) and you can use Telenet
too.

In addition to the usual electronic mail and "notes"-type software,
both these services support real-time roundtable conferencing ("CB").
Compuserve has embarked on a campaign to encourage the generation and
uploading of graphics encoded in their "RLE" format (a primitive, low
resolution format that can be handled by any micro with 256x192 pixels).

By the way...some hacker cooked up a conferencing package for Macintosh
on Compuserve that uses the graphics and sound capabilities of the Mac.
So far, it's a mere curiosity.  But it bears watching -- and listening!

Pat

P.S.  No, I don't work for Compuserve, or Delphi.  But I think it is
useful to look at what people pay for.

As for "warning" people -- alright, it's pretentious.  I used to argue
with a guy who claimed that there was no good use for home computers, and
then printed his club's mailing labels on a DECwriter right there in
the middle of the afternoon.  Just a pet peeve.

  


re. -1,

	Hmmm...sounds like Delphi would be the better deal as far as using
    VAX/VMS and for potential Vaxnotes service, and Compuserve for local
    access and network size.  I'd be interested in the Delphi phone# when
    you find it.  Who knows, maybe I've stumbled upon a way to communicate
    with the rest of my family (which is currently dispersed between here,
    Iowa, and North Carolina), not to mention my old cronies (which lie
    under rocks and trees from coast to coast).

	I wonder how long it will be before Vaxnotes will become available
    as a product to Delphi?

						-DAV0


    p.s.  Thanks for the valuable info Pat.  Sorry about the "Noah's Ark"
	analogy - couldn't resist. 

Delphi's number is 617-491-3393 in Massachusetts, 800-544-4005 elsewhere.
The company is General Videotex Corporation of Cambridge.

Delphi rates:         7am-6pm                  6pm-7am

Direct Dial (Boston)   $9.60/hr                 $6.60/hr
Via Tymnet, Uninet     $17.40/hr                $7.20/hr

Compuserve rates:     8am-6pm                  6pm-5am
                     
300 baud  Direct       $12.75/hr                $ 6.25/hr
300 baud Telenet
  or Tymnet            $22.50/hr                $ 8.00/hr
1200 baud Direct       $15.25/hr                $12.75/hr
1200 baud Telenet
  or Tyment            $25.00/hr                $14.50/hr

This gives you an idea of what ordinary people pay for the capabilities
we are accustomed to using freely!
    
    

    Those services don't even know about networks such as ours.  They
    assume you will be dialing in direct to TYMNET/TELENET type public
    pads.  This incurs a hefty charge for them, and so their rates are
    very high for everything but direct dialin.  Thru our network's
    X.25 gateways, it should be possible to attach to those services
    directly from your account.  One problem would be the cost to the
    owner of the gateway, but total cost would be much less than everyone
    dialing into public pads.  
    
    bill

    I disagree with the nay-sayers.  I'm for a public employee
    network of some sort, for the following reasons:
    
      o There are already a lot of non-work-related uses and users:
        this is discussed elsewhere in a note I started (can't
        remember the number).
        
      o Companies provide other bennies to employees that cost
        quite a bit: private gyms, country clubs, annual outings,
        turkeys at holidays, etc...  Yes, this one could be costly--
        but I suspect it's a perq that could attract a certain
        number of highly skilled people that would otherwise go
        to another company.
        
      o The present unrestricted employee net access is a legel
        nightmare.  How can we be sure that anything is secret?
        Also, any attempts to track down breakin hackers is
        complicated by the number of "satellite" (family member)
        users on the net.

      o New net access gateways will make access in and out of
        different nets (TYMshare, CompuServe, ARPAnet, and others)
        a lot easier.  There are also stricter security controls.
        Having a separate net wouldn't block employees and their
        families from joining in discussions, but it would sure
        make monitoring and controlling a lot easier.  It's similar
        to the military policy of issuing ID cards to dependents.
        I would be in favor of a "network" ID card.

    Hello.
    
    There already is a mechanism and institution that supports like
    minded people who are interested in the same topic.  The last time
    I checked, there were 1200 nodes world-wide, with each node having
    about 150 unique, frequent users.  Nodes are located across the
    US, Canada, Sweden, Indonesia, Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, Germany,
    France, UK, etc.
    
    The network is composed of DOS machines (primarily clones), and
    I believe the VAXmate qualifies.  Since the network is composed
    of dial-up nodes, and you can get access from local machines the
    costs involved are either modest or ZERO!
    
    The name of the network.  Fido.  It really is quite amazing, what
    a bunch of amateurs has been able to accomplish.
    
    Having said all that, I have been even more impressed with notes
    as a tool than with Fido.  And, I've also been impressed with Digital
    openness in the Notes files.
    
    Thought somebody might be interested.
    

    Lotus today announced its version of Notes:
    
    "Designed to allow groups of people to create and share information
    using personal computers, Notes can be used for such tasks as customer
    tracking, project management and electronic mail.
    
    ...Price Waterhouse has purchased 10,000 copies of Notes for use in its
    offices worldwide, and that Manufactures Hanover Trust is creating
    Notes installations.  In addition, Reuters Information Services Inc. a
    leading new and information company is developing applications using
    Notes for its financial and corporate subscribers."
    
    

                         -< They call it Groupware... >-

	So are they going to call themselves .... "Groupies".  Arghhhhhhh !
	
	I'm sorry I could'nt help myself !

	Chuck  A_noter_only     
    

    re .23 and .24
    
    Sorry to say, they will be "paying CUSTOMERS of someone else".
    
    	-Barry_who_hates_to_lose-
    

	A more important question, but probably for NODEMO::MARKETING rather
	that DIGITAL, is why are those people not buying VAX Notes?

			Alfred

re: .26:
	A more important question, but probably for NODEMO::MARKETING rather
	that DIGITAL, is why are those people not buying VAX Notes?

I don't think it runs on PC's.

Martin.

	RE: .27 More and more people are buying the hardware to support the
	software that meets their needs. Perhaps in this case those people
	already had PCs in which case the question is why hasn't DEC made
	a product of the PC based Notes agent that is in use within DEC?

			Alfred

From what (so far, little) I've read about Lotus Notes, it's considerably more
than just a VAX Notes clone. It sounds like it includes an application 
development environment for building custom distributed database/messaging
systems based on the underlying notes-like system.

However, the above involves a fair amount of extracting fonts from the white
spaces between the actual lines. I'll be interested in seeing some actual
reviews to see what it is that they've done. (Since I knew 4 out of the 5 
people in the company that did the work.)

I doubt this is the right forum for going deeply into another company's 
product set, though.

I believe the use of the term "notes" is more of a historical accident
than a concisously chosen descriptive name.  I know the same developers
Paul does so I guess we have to direct you to the public literature.

I'm not even sure "apples and oranges" captures it; at least they are
both fruits.

- greg