Conference 7.286::digital

    RE:-1
    
>    I was wondering what the DEC policy is in regards to time off for new fathers.
>I guess the buzzword is "paternity leave"...  My wife and I are expecting our
>2nd child any day now and I won't have any problem getting the "necessary"
>time off but would like to now how much I may be entitled to.  I couldn't find
>anything in the Personnel Policies and Procedures regarding "paternity" leave.
>
>Since I'm fortunate enough to work in a group that can be quite flexible with
>work hours, there won't be a problem with getting a considerable amount of 
>time "off".  My supervisor said that we will "play it by ear" since there isn't
>a policy regarding this.  But the question is "how much time am I allowed before
>I should be taking vacation time?".

    
    I am on "paternity vacation" right now.  As far as I know, there
    is no such thing as a "paternity leave".
    
    I am in the same boat as you as far as a flexible work enviornment,
    however, I do not feel that the company owes me any time off because
    I am having a baby.  For a woman having a baby, there is a medical
    necessity of staying home and that is a different story.  My staying
    home this week is a convenience.  (although taking care of two kids
    is not a conveinience to me) :-)
    
    Jim Pappas

    If you lived in one of many more realistic, family oriented countries
    in Europe, you'd be entitled to 5 months with pay Maternity or
    Paternity leave.  You do deserve it! and so does your wife and new
    baby!
    Ruth

re: .1

    Jim - my expectation is that if I am to take more than a day or two
    off due to this situation that I would take vacation time.  However,
    if there is any policy regarding time off for new fathers, I'd like
    to know.  If we are allowed time I'd like to take advantage of that.

    It isn't really a matter of feeling the company may "owe me" time off.
    The only time I feel like that is when I get involved with those
    last minute or emergency situations which mean I work 80 to 100 hours
    in a week.  (As an aside, the two times I have done something like that
    I haven't had any problem getting an equitable "comp time" from my
    supervisor.)

    However, I do feel that DEC should allow for at least a small amount
    of time off for this purpose - maybe 2 days or possibly 20 hours so you
    could only work half days for a week.  Afterall, you are entitled to 3
    days off with pay for a death in the family and that includes in-laws.
    (I am not against that policy or in-laws...)  Whether DEC is going to
    "give" me time off for having a child isn't really my issue (although
    as previously stated I think they should give a little time off).  The
    problem is that the lack of a policy concerning "paternity leave" will
    allow for self-interpretation: some people people will feel they are
    owed time off, expectations between some supervisors and employees may
    be widely different, etc.  The point is that the powers-that-be should
    establish policy regarding this issue.  I don't foresee any problems
    in my particular case, but if there is a policy I would like to know it.

    (Have fun with the little ones!)

Ray

re: .2

>    If you lived in one of many more realistic, family oriented countries
>    in Europe, you'd be entitled to 5 months with pay Maternity or
>    Paternity leave.

     Ruth, does DEC do what you mentioned? (I assume that we have employees
     in at least one of the "more realistic, family oriented countries in
     Europe").

>    You do deserve it! and so does your wife and new baby!

     I don't know about 5 months but your right - my wife and children deserve
     as much of me as they can get.  I think American society puts a lot of
     pressure on the family and encourages individualism too much.  But that
     topic belongs in another notes file...

Ray

    What is DEC's policy?
    
    Look at the policy manual.
    
    I believe that you'll find there is no such thing as paternity leave.
    Maternity leave is granted as a short-term medical disability.
    
    What about laws in my state, other states, other countries?     
    
    As the television commercial says, consult local listings.  Digital
    conforms to the benefits required by local law.
    
    What about "death in the family" days?
    
    It's odd that there's no explict paid day off for a "birth in the
    family", but that asymmetry doesn't create a justification in itself
    for such a paid day off.
    
    What's fair?
    
    Official DEC gathers its feedback through your discussions with
    your local personnel people, not through VAX NOTES.  How 100 replies
    to this note agreeing upon the need for offering paternity leave
    would turn into an action plan is a good topic for another note.

    What a topical note, seeing that I just came from the hospital 
    where I assisted in the birth of my daughter and after coming home,
    fed my first son, and then myself, and then decided that nothing
    was worth watching on TV after I put my son to bed...

Re: .4

In Sweden, the paid parental leave is one year and may be split any
way between the parents.  It is also available to adoptive parents.
There are also provisions for unpaid leaves for a few extra years
(I think 2) with the guarantee of the same or an equivalent job
upon return.

This policy is set by law -- Dec corporate policy is irrelevant.
The parental leave is paid out of the National Health insurance.

Also, parents may take a largish number of sick days off (60?)
to care for their children.

Also, the minimum vacation is 5 weeks.

Martin.

    	I was told that in France it is only 3 months. We are obviously
    less civilised here. :-)   Again, it is national law, so any DEC
    policy is irrelevant. Maybe because there are so many laws on the
    subject no-one has bothered to define a policy for the few countries
    for which there is no law?
    
    		Dave

    It is true that in a lot of countries the benefits are much better
    then they are in the U.S.   But, the pay is a lot worse.  People
    in equivalent jobs often make half or less of the U.S. equivalent.
    So, you could take off some unpaid vacation and still have more
    money than the European counterparts.
    
    Incidentally, the orange Personnel Policy and Procedures book only
    has policy for the U.S. company.  Our overseas subsidiaries are
    just that, subsidiaries and are therefore separate companies with
    different policies
    
    Roger

   I just got update 29 to the Policies and Procedures Manual
   that adds parental leave under the heading of personal leave
   of absence.

   "Normally a leave of absence is granted only for the following
    reasons:
    .
    .
    .
    Personal, and all other including parents who request time
    off to be with their newborn or adopted children. "


    I do not believe that this is a change in policy so much as
    a reflection that this issue has been (or is being) considered.

    Jean

This is terrible!  Prior to this policy, a manager, having no other policy
to go by, could give an employee a reasonable amount of time off.

This policy is a formalization which says that any time an employee wants to
take time off to be with newborn children (beyond whatever is medically
necessary) is a leave of absence.

Remember that leave of absence means time off *without* pay.

/john

        Paternity leaves (leaves of absence) have ALWAYS been without
        pay, as have maternity leaves of more than the simple c.8 weeks
        of short term disability that goes with child birth.
        
        Of course if you have a bunch of comp time coming, 2 years
        of accumulated vacation, or a boss willing to let you work
        at home, these are all still reasonable options today, just
        as they always have been.
        
        This policy changes nothing. It just makes what has always
        been the effect of existing policies explicit.
        
        JimB. 

    
 
    A UK Paternity leave policy for the UK has been drawn up, but
    not approved yet.
    
    Policy dictates 2 weeks paid leave for new fathers, up to 1
    month if circumstances dictate.
    
    Paternity leave in this context is taken as being 'Compassionate
    Leave'.
    
    They hadda wait until after my 3 kids ! :-)
    
    -- A
    

    Oh yes, also maternity and paternity leave will apply to adoptive
    parents too, under the same proposed policy.
    
    -- A

    Re: .12
    
    	See if you can get it made retroactive :-)
    
    - michael

    Belgium grants two days with pay to be taken within 12 days after
    the child birth. Mothers are entitled to 14 weeks of sick/leave.
    
    I think this is fair practice. The company doesn't loose much and
    that's what the employee need to drive his wife to the hospital,
    assist to the event, get drunk, recover, shoot some pictures, register
    the child, etc.   Aah, Happy days... :^]
    

>Germany provides a full year of paid maternity leave; I don't know if it can
>be split between husband and wife.

East Germany, maybe. Here in the Federal Republic full-time employettes get
6 weeks before and 8 weeks after birth paid, then up to 9 months *unpaid*
leave of absence. She is guaranteed the same or a similar job when she returns.

Stephen