Conference vaxcat::ef97

    
    Unusually I was up at an early hour this morning and managed to see a
    press conference by the Liberal Democrats and one by the Labour Party.
    
    The SDP was full of positive attitude towards the NHS with what they
    will do and how they would do it. A few jibes at the Tories and Labour
    but very few.
    
    The Labour conference was full of negative Tory propoaganda with a
    promise to reduce tax if circumstances allow.
    
    There is no way I would ever vote Tory no matter what they said or
    promised so there was no point waiting in to see there press
    conference/manifesto release which should be starting about now, 10:30.
    
    Based on this very limited coverage I would be tempted, if I was
    allowed, to vote Liberal.
    
    Chris

    Actually, the Liberal Democrats are looking more and more appealing.  I
    like their environmental policies (at present don't know that much about
    it but am endeavouring to find out more) but I heard Paddy Ashdown, on
    the radio this morning, saying that they intend to improve the NHS and 
    social security by increasing taxes.  Didn't like the sound of that.
    
    CHARLOTTE

    >I heard Paddy Ashdown, on the radio this morning, saying that they intend 
    >to improve the NHS and social security by increasing taxes.  Didn't like 
    >the sound of that.
    
    If that's the only way to improve things then I for one don't mind (as
    long as the rise isn't too much).
    
    I'm fed up of all the blatant lies.
    
    Chris

I have much more respect for the LibDems than the other parties because I at
least have an idea of what they stand for.

The only thing I know about the other parties is that they stand for the
wholesale acquisition of power

regards,
//alan

�no point waiting in to see there press
                            ^^^^^

ODE

Just to see if I can get in before Cap'n. Grandma

Simon$POF

    Re. 5
    
    <I heard Paddy Ashdown, on the radio this morning, saying that they
    intend to improve the NHS and social security by increasing taxes. 
    Didn't like the sound of that.>
        
    << If that's the only way to improve things then I for one don't mind
    (as long as the rise isn't too much).>>
    
    I absolutely agree.  I think the NHS and education are key and I
    certainly don't mind my tax money being spent on these areas.  However,
    I object to having to support dole scroungers, council housing and
    single mothers.  Don't get me wrong, I agree with social welfare for
    the really needy but in this country this system is being totally abused. 
    Also, how about less tax money being spent on keeping MP's in fancy houses,
    holidays and huge salaries. 
    
    Also, I heard the "unofficial" figure for the Tory Party's campaign is
    around �10M.  I wonder just how much of that is donated and what
    percentage is taxpayers money?
    
    CHARLOTTE

    This conference seems to be a very yellow shade of yellow.
    
    I might pop down the local bookies and put �2.00 on the Libs.  They're
    800-1 outsiders.  It would actually be rather funny if the nation got
    together, betted on LibDem, voted for them, then scooped several grand
    from the bookies.
    
    I've obviously been in the sun too long.
    
    Chris

Charlotte,

>							  However,
>    I object to having to support dole scroungers, council housing and
>    single mothers.  

  Do you really believe this? Would you like to see everyone that is
  either on the dole, in a council house, or a single mother kicked out
  on the streets with no support? Do you honestly believe that everyone
  is in a position to find a job, buy their own house and be in a stable
  relationship?

  How do you see the outcome of your way of doing things? Should these
  people, sorry scroungers, be forced into townships outside of the
  cities like there are in your native South Africa?

  I'm not trying to be offensive, just understand trying to understand
  what you are advocating.

>   Also, how about less tax money being spent on keeping MP's in fancy houses,
>    holidays and huge salaries.

  My understanding is that MPs are fairly poorly paid for the job they
  do.

  Rgds, Steve.

    OK, how much do MP's get ? then how much can they earn  for the other
    things they do ?
    
    Chris

    Re. 10
    
    <Do you really believe this? Would you like to see everyone that is
      either on the dole, in a council house, or a single mother kicked out
      on the streets with no support? Do you honestly believe that everyone
      is in a position to find a job, buy their own house and be in a
    stable relationship?>
    
    I believe I answer you question in my note no. 8
    
    <<Don't get me wrong, I agree with social welfare for the really needy 
    but in this country this system is being totally abused.>>
    
    Of course I don't agree with booting the homeless into the street and
    discriminating against the unemployed.  What I am saying is that, IMO, in
    order to save tax money the entire welfare system should be
    re-addressed.  People who are employed should not be collecting dole
    cheques, people who receive council housing should not promptly install
    their entire family, possibly from another country, in the house and 
    everybody lives rent free - compliments of the state.  Single mothers
    should not be living in council housing when the *working* father 
    of the child lives in the same house, does not pay maintenance and lives
    and raises his family compliments of the British taxpayer. I am not
    against people who genuinely require assistance, I am against abuse of the
    welfare state.
    
    As for your question about townships in South Africa.  South Africa is
    not a welfare state and therefore we cannot compare the two.  If you
    want to rathole into SA politics, I would be happy to oblige in another
    topic.
    
    CHARLOTTE                                         
    

    Re. 10
    
    <My understanding is that MPs are fairly poorly paid for the job they
      do.>
    
    And what exactly do they do?
    
    CHARLOTTE

    I dunno, the UK is one of the Lowest taxed nations in Europe and still
    you complain.
    
    Come over here and pay the rates of tax *I* have to (60%) and then you
    can worry about where it goes.
    
    You lot are also complaining about the welfare state, blimey you ain't
    got one compared to the Dutch, do you know that if I lost my job
    tommorrow the state would pay me 80% of my last paycheck as dole money
    for the next 6 months!
    
    gerbil$Dutch_Permi_and_broke

    Re. 14
    
    Hmmm, we are going completely off the subject.  Firstly, nobody is
    complaining about the rate of tax in the UK.  In fact, I don't think
    that the subject about amount of taxation has been raised at all.  Also, 
    nobody is complaining about the welfare state - quite the opposite. 
    
    I am sure that compared to Europe, the cost of living in the UK is
    relatively low.
    
    CHARLOTTE 
              

  >    OK, how much do MP's get ? then how much can they earn  for the other
>    things they do ?
 
>    Chris

  It is something like #42K if I remember correctly out of which they
  have to pay for a secretary if they want one. Hardly the sort of
  salary to attract the best minds in the country.

  What they earn doing other things is totally irrelevant as long as
  there loyalty to their electorate is not compromised by doing the extra
  work.

  Rgds, Steve.

    
    Re: .15
    
 >  I am sure that compared to Europe, the cost of living in the UK is
 >  relatively low.
    
    As is the general standard of living.
    
    Chris

�there loyalty to their electorate

ODE

Twice in one day and Cap'n Grandma hasn't even spotted them.

Simon

    Re .17
    
    And the salaries.
    
    Goldy.

    I'd spotted them but I didn't wish to lower the standard of debate.
    
    I like living in England, and Britain. I don't think we have a
    particularly low standard of living.
    
    The Libdem "advert" which points out that 50% of the electorate would
    vote for them if they thought the libdems would win says it all really.
    
    At present I'd pay a bit more tax, if it were used appropriately.
    Further it needs to be collected from those that can afford it.
    
    Andrew

    
    Re: .16
    
>  It is something like #42K if I remember correctly out of which they
>  have to pay for a secretary if they want one. Hardly the sort of
>  salary to attract the best minds in the country.
    
    Add on their expenses, their attendance money and a host of other
    benefits and you'd get a more realistic figure.

>  What they earn doing other things is totally irrelevant as long as
>  there loyalty to their electorate is not compromised by doing the extra
>  work.
    
    Complete cloud cuckoo land. Especially for Tory MPs whose only loyalty
    is to their own pockets. They bleat on about these cash for questions
    MPS being innocent until found guilty and then conveniently suppress
    the evidence.
    
    Chris

    Paddy's formulae from Radio 5 lunchtime:
    
    promises-costs=lies

I'm sure I remember the days when going on a foreign holiday meant that one
could buy things cheaply in Europe.  Now, it seems that goods cost more in
the rest of Europe than the UK.

That suggests to me that, even if our standard of living in the UK has not
fallen, we have become comparatively less well-off.

regards,
//alan

  >>>  What they earn doing other things is totally irrelevant as long as
>>>  there loyalty to their electorate is not compromised by doing the extra
>>>  work.
 
>    Complete cloud cuckoo land. Especially for Tory MPs whose only loyalty
>    is to their own pockets. They bleat on about these cash for questions
>    MPS being innocent until found guilty and then conveniently suppress
>    the evidence.
 
>    Chris

  Why is it cloud cuckoo land? The fact that some abuse the system
  doesn't alter the fact that MPs should be paid for doing the job that
  we elect them to do, and they should not need to rely on income from
  elsewhere.

  I take it for the snide comments from Goldy and Andrew that I didn't
  remember correctly and the pay isn't 42K. Don't you think that it would
  be more helpful to the discussion if you could enlighten us with your
  understanding of an MP pay rather than act like spoilt brats?

  Rgds, Steve

    Steve,
    
    I think Goldy's comment was that salaries in the UK are low compared to
    Europe, in general and perhaps Digital specifically. I wouldn't know
    about European salaries.
    
    I think you have the MP's salary about right. I think that is on the
    bottom end of an acceptable salary for the job they are expected to do.
    I also think that there are too many MPs, reduce the number by 100-150
    and redistribute the salary to the remainder. Personally I don't see
    anything wrong with paying an MP to ask a question to which one wants
    an answer. You'd pay a consultant to answer a question, or get you the
    answer.
    
    If my remark came accross as snide, it wasn't meant that way. Just to
    show that we POFs have a sense of appropriateness.
    
    At present MPs of all parties have far too many outside interests.
    
    Andrew

    Re .24
    
    Steve,
    
    >  I take it for the snide comments from Goldy and Andrew that I didn't
    >  remember correctly and the pay isn't 42K. Don't you think that it would
    >  be more helpful to the discussion if you could enlighten us with your
    >  understanding of an MP pay rather than act like spoilt brats?
    
    My comment was (referring to an earlier note) to say that although 
    taxation etc may be lower in England compared to other countries, 
    Joe Public's salaries (not MPs) are lower too.
    
    My comment was not a snide remark. Don't read things into replies that
    aren't there. If you can't enter a reply without calling people names,
    then please don't enter any replies.
    
    Goldy.

Sorry, looks like I misunderstood the points you two where making.
I'll pay more attention next time. 

  Rgds, Steve.


    Speaking as one with direct experience, I can categorically state that
    Britain is a far cheaper place to live in than France, Belgium, the
    Netherlands or Ireland, and the standard of living is just as good.
    
    Yes, incomes are lower, but overall, people in Britain are a) far, far
    better off then ever before, and b) have more disposable income than
    residents of the above-mentioned countries.
    
    A very senior Digital UK manager told me last week that in his opinion,
    Digital UK's salaries are now so far out of line with the rest of the
    industry, that a severe amount of pain lies ahead for the Management.
    He believed that a lot of blood would be spilt before the mess was
    sorted out.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

>    Speaking as one with direct experience, I can categorically state that
>    Britain is a far cheaper place to live in than France, Belgium, the
>    Netherlands or Ireland, and the standard of living is just as good.
 

So why have you lived in France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Ireland rather
than Britain for the last however many years?

Rgds, Steve

    Living standards are difficult to measure. Having lived in Germany for
    14 years and now in Galway, how do you measure salary differences
    against intangibles ? My pay here is lower, but my eyes and lungs are
    not burning from the Frankfurt ozone. The main thing I miss is the 35
    hour week and 6 weeks holidays. 
    
    Re Digital conditions, please have a look at my SNB election manifesto
    in Tallis::celt :-)
    
    ..Kevin.. 

RE:  <<< Note 27.29 by IRNBRU::61549::Spike "Welcome to the Rimmer Experience" >>>
                              -< Just wondering >-

>> >    Speaking as one with direct experience, I can categorically state that
>> >    Britain is a far cheaper place to live in than France, Belgium, the
>> >    Netherlands or Ireland, and the standard of living is just as good.
>>  
>> So why have you lived in France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Ireland rather
>> than Britain for the last however many years?
    
    Why not?
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    
    
    RE: a while ago
    
    The comment about Europe being more expensive now does not hold out
    when you look at France.
    
    Not so long ago (within the last 15 months) 1 GBP would have got you 
    7.5 Francs, now it's more like 9.5 Francs ! I used to look forward to
    returning to the UK and stocking up with cheap this, that and the other
    now it's no longer possible. 
    
    Remember the good old days of 10 Francs to the pound, looks like those
    days are not far away from returning,
    
    Scoobydoo.
                               

    
     Re: .27 (Steve).
    
    Wot a gurl!
    
     Re: Comparing standards of living.
    
    I did a lot of comparison studies when deciding which country to
    live in after England and found it almost impossible to draw a
    quick and easy conclusion; some locally available items which
    you wouldn't get in the UK are cheaper in other places, some
    commonplace UK items are much rarer in other countries and
    therefore much more expensive. We've changed a lot of habits
    since moving and find we are about as well off, but have a better
    overall lifestyle (Less pollution, overcrowsing, miserable folks,
    like Charlotte said elsewhere).
    
    UK Salaries are appalling and in a particularly vital group of 
    technical folks that I have fond memories of, some eleven people 
    have left in the last six months (Including me), none of them 
    getting much less than double the renumeration available internally. 
    What a waste. I lost money in the move, but my reasons weren't the
    financial ones.
    
    Cheerfully yours,
    A./

    Whilst contemplating our move to South Africa we have taken many
    factors into consideration and from a financial viewpoint, we will be
    better off.  Our earnings will be equivalent to the UK, however our
    buying power will be substantially more and the standard of living will
    certainly be higher.
    
    CHARLOTTE

    
     A friend of mine just left South Africa and quoted the same
    stuff, Charlotte. 
     
     The buying power you'll have will be greater and you will find 
    plenty of very well priced services, too. There is a great amount 
    of unemployment there and lots of people are looking for jobs as 
    housekeepers, gardeners, etc.
    
     One this to watch out for is the economy when trading in items
    from outside the country. The Rand is having a hard time at the
    moment and there is a government limit of 162,500 Rand placed on
    anyone leaving the country, which is apparently about impossible
    to get around. 162,500 buys you a decent house in South Africa,
    but here in Australia (Comparable to UK and US, approx) buys you
    a decent Holden (Vauxhall, GM) Equippe.
    
     Good time to get in, but look carefully at whether you want to
    tie up your pensions there (Get advice).
    
     Have fun!
    
     A/.