Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    My 2c...
    
    >I read somewhere the other day that a woman behaves exactly the same
    >way towards a man she does find attractive as she does towards a man
    >she doesn't find attractive. I hope not !
    
    I don't see how that could possibly be true. All sorts of interesting
    things happen quite involuntarily around attractive men - racing
    pulse, flushing, dilated pupils - not to mention conscious stuff
    (from tone of voice through eye contact to outright flirting, depending
    on whether you just admire him or whether you want to do something
    about it). So there *is* a difference.
    
    >I am completely unable to pick up the "signals" from a woman that she
    >finds me attractive (just ask 'gail or Alice T. !).
    
    This is absolutely true. I swear.
                                     
    > I like to know that any attraction I feel is mutual
    >before I plunge in and make any advance. I prefer to stay friends with 
    >a woman than risk losing that friendship with an unwanted advance.
    
    That's nice. Why not try saying that to someone - just like you
    said it here? 
    
    > I think it is a case of being able to recognise a
    >signal when I see one. I probably see these signals and disregard
    >them. I don't think looks come into it. If they do then that person
    >could well be a tad on the shallow side.
    
    Ah, Jerome, don't be so hard on those who are influenced by looks.
    It is hard to *totally* ignore them....
    
    The signals that I've noticed (from feeling them or observing
    them) are partly voluntary and partly involuntary. Picking up
    involuntary signals is part of your physical makeup - it's
    the age-old mating game stuff like pupil dilation which you
    don't actually LOOK for - you just notice how wide and sparkly
    and beautiful her eyes are 8-}
    The voluntary stuff is to do with prolonged eye-contact, body
    language, remembering things that you say and repeating them
    back to you, showing interest in you, and generally making you
    feel valued. If they're also shy they may cover that up by
    teasing, foolin' about, and doing some very silly things within
    your line of vision - that plus the fact that they just keep on
    turning up wherever you usually go.... 
    
    If you're missing this stuff maybe it's because your shyness is
    preventing you from relaxing enough to think about the other person?
    I remember when I started doing sales calls I was so busy thinking
    about what I should say next, whether I was making a fool of myself,
    and whether I was following my call plan that I hardly ever
    forgot *myself* and actually *listened* to the other person.
    I got round it by learning to listen with my whole attention -
    watch the person and *listen hard*. I forgot my own nerves and noticed
    a lot more (like whether they were panting and gazing into my eyes
    or not ;-) (not that this happened in sales calls you understand...)
    
  > I also don't think my
  >  typically fragile male ego could cope with a series of rejections.
   
    There are some good topics in here somewhere about getting up the
    nerve to ask someone out (from both gender's points of view)....
     
    'gail                                                               
    
    
    >PPS - In case anyone gets the wrong idea, the above reference to
    >      Alice and 'gail does not mean *they* were giving out signals
    >      (Not that I would be able to tell anyway). 
    
    You mean you didn't *notice* Jerome!!!! I'm WOUNDED! ;-);-)
    
    
    
    

    If you are waiting to make sure that there is no chance of rejection
    from a particular female because the "signals" are so strong and 
    obvious, you are likely to wait a long time.  Just because she sends
    you a signal (and, by the way, I've never received any, so any sent my
    way were wasted energy) doesn't mean she knows enough about you to know
    whether she will ultimately (or immediately) reject you.  You just got
    to take your chances and dive in.  I know -- easy to say, hard to do.
    Work on that fragile ego of yours while you're waiting.  It's standing
    in your way.
    					- Vick

    Hi Jerome,
    
    A woman speaking, here.
    
    Have you tried reframing the question?  Rather than trying to decipher
    mysterious signals?  Remember, a woman may not think of you "that
    way", but if you make (gentle, tentative) advances, she may discover
    that you are attractive to her.
    
    I humbly suggest that you risk making some advances, even if you have
    not seen evidence of attraction.  I suggest that you take it one small
    step at a time.   If one step works, try the next.  Let us assume that
    you are on a double-date weekend, as you mentioned:
    
    (In the following, I am assuming that you make all the advances.  She
    may pleasantly surprise you and make a few of her own.  Your job then
    is to respond to HER.  I don't mean to sound sexist here.)
    
    He:  Maintains eye contact and talks with sincerity of personal
    interests.  (Eye contact is important in making any connection.)
    
    She: Becomes animated and talks of her personal interests, or asks
    questions about his.
    
    He:  Sits a bit closer.  (Test the waters.  You can always move away
    for now and try again later.)
    
    She:  Does not move away.  She may appear nervous.
    
    He:  Briefly touches her hand while making a point, or to show empathy
    while she is speaking.  (Testing the waters again.)
    
    She:  Does not recoil.  Perhaps touches his hand or arm while speaking.
    
    He:  Directs conversation so that they are speaking separately from the
    other couple.  Pays special interest to HER history, hobbies, and
    opinions.  (Shows that you are interested in HER, separate from the
    others.) 
    
       "To be interesting, be interested."
    
    She:  Seems to enjoy speaking with him alone.  
    
    He:  Suggests that they go for a walk alone or do an activity together
    without the other couple.  (You need to be alone to develop the
    relationship.)
    
    She:  Agrees.
    
    (They walk alone or do an activity such as golf, alone.)
    
    He:  Offers his elbow for her to hold while walking, especially while
    going down steps or over a bridge. (A gentlemanly move in courtship.)
    
    She:  Holds his elbow.
    
    He:  Offers to buy her a beverage.
    
    She:  Accepts.
    
    He:  Remembering a statement she made earlier, brings it up again and
    asks her to talk about it some more.  (This shows you are interested in
    her ideas and remember what she has said.)
    
    She:  Seems happy that he remembered.  Talks at greater length.
    
    He:  While walking, puts his hand briefly on her waist.  (If she likes
    you, she will enjoy your touch.  If not, you can wait and try again. 
    Dancing is a natural activity at this point.)
    
    She:  Moves closer.  Touches him.
    
    
    I could go on further, but since you asked about getting through the
    first stages of courtship, this probably answers your question.
    
    There are ways to tell that a person is attracted to you, but it can be
    difficult since each person is different.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Laura
    

    Laura, good stuff.  I enjoyed reading that!
    
    Basenote author:  Also consider that it is possible to fall in love
    with your friend, and for your friend to fall in love with you.
    
    Friends are all of what Laura said.  They are genuinely interested in
    what you have to say.  They are close, caring and concerned.  Those are
    qualities which automatically draw a people closer... and which
    sometimes cause people to fall hopelessly in love.
    
    Best wishes.

    Do they:
    
    Ask to join you for lunch?
    Come to your office to chat?
    Call you at work?
    Call you at home?
    Get into in depth discussions on topics you both enjoy?
    Introduce themselves?
    Seem to be where ever you are? (same party, same outing, at the
    coffee machine at the same time,  etc....)
    
    HRH
    

    When I am interested in someone, but too shy to make the first move, I
    will:
    
      Look straight into their eye when they speak.
    
      Listen intently and interestedly to whatever they say.
    
      Address them by their name in conversation frequently.
    
      Sit/stand close to them, lean towards them when speaking.
    
      Remember things they said about themselves; ask them questions.
    
      When in a group, address many questions to them in particular,
      rather than a group.  Pay particular attention to what they say
      and respond more often than to other peoplein the group.
    
      In a group, I will manuever it to sit next to this person, or walk 
      next to hir or whatever.
    
    Sometimes, I feel really shy, and I will
    
      Giggle a lot.
    
      Not be able to meet their eyes at all, except for frequent glances
      then looking away before "caught" (but always just enough so that 
      s/he *will* notice.)
    
      Nod a lot at what they say, as if enraptured by their voice (I 
      probably am.)
    
    Also, in conversation I will try to hint, such as, if s/he says "I've
    always wanted to try lobster" I will jokingly responsd "Well we should
    go out for lobster sometime".  Or s/he will say "I saw this really nice
    outfit on sale" and I'll respond (with a laugh) "Sounds like it would
    look *great* on you!"
    
    D!

    Thanks for the replies so far.
    
    I thought some of you may be interested to hear that I've also
    posted the basenote in QUARK::MENNOTES and see the different
    types of reply. Interestingly, there have been 25 replies in
    mennotes to 6 replies here. I gather I'm not alone in my plight :-).
    
    I will, when I get time, reply to all the replies.
    
    
    Jerome.
    
    PS - 'gail, here's a couple of band aid hugs to heal those wounds #-)
    
    +HUG +HUG +HUG +HUG  

    
    I guess some women are really shy, private and well mannered.
    I don't hide my emotions and feelings very well.
    If I like/dislike a person, the person will know. This is sometimes
    a handicap for me.
    
    I can tell you what I'd do politely if I don't like someone -
      - I won't bother to look them in the eye (unless I want to give
        him/her a hard time)
      - I won't stop and talk in the hallway even if he/she wants to
      - I won't mention my personal life
      - I won't invite him/her to lunch
      - I won't sit next to him/her voluntarily
      - I'd say "No, thanks" to any invitations
    
    The following is probably not much help to you.
    If I like a guy, I'd make sure he knows - I'm assertive. I gave 
    my husband flowers before we starting dating! But I also called
    him names that cannot be entered here when I got upset. I am an
    emotional person.  
    
    
    Eva
    

    Also, I think smiles are very important.  Some people are very shy
    and may get a bit tongue-tied and not know what to say to someone they
    are attracted to.  A smile may be that person's way of saying
    s/he likes you.
    
    Dawnne
    

    Thanks for everyones replies so far. Many contain good advice and it
    also helps to know I'm not alone in my plight.
    
    I think you may be interested to know that a few weeks ago, I spotted
    some signals, lots of eye contact, her looking away when I looked at
    her etc.  I then summoned up the courage to go up to her and take her
    to one side of the bar (she was with a group of people) and start a
    conversation. I arranged to meet her again. I've seen quite a lot of
    her recently and we seem to be getting on very well. I think this could
    be the start of a serious thing but it's a bit early to say for sure.
    Her name BTW is Catherine.  It also seems ironic that since I've been
    seeing Catherine I've noticed several signals. I think I must be a
    lot more aware than I was before. I have even had a really nice girl
    indirectly (ie through a friend) ask me out.  I declined the request as
    nicely as I could saying words to the effect of thanks very much but 
    I'm already spoken for. I don't know, one extreme to the other :-) 
    
                                 
    Jerome.

    
    y'know, Jerome.....it seems to me it never rains but it pours!  it's
    either feast or famine.....
    
    murphy's law, I guess
    
    -Jody
    

    Maybe I should post this in "the Rules" but:

    First Law of Attraction:

    Nothing but nothing is more attractive to people than the contented look
    of being already involved.

    Second law of attraction:

    Whether you are involved or not, one usually gets reasonably frequent
    requests for dates. However, when one is single the lacunae between
    requests is painfully obvious.

    Third Law of Attraction:

    A great date usually makes a lousy mate, and often conversely.


        Margaret (who LOVES eye contact)