Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    In my experience of Europe, you can get by with very little of
    the local lingo. If they see you're making an effort they will often
    start to speak in fluent English.  After all, English is taught in
    all (obviously except UK) European schools as a second language, and
    I for one have often felt linguisticaly inadequate abroad. 
    
    Or you could put on your most condescending voice and shout !  #-)
    
    Jerome.
                                 
    PS - If you go to Germany, don't mention the war !  #-)

I am normally read only but I can't resist this one.

I am an American married to a German living in Switzerland for almost 17 years
where my two children were born.

I speak comfortably about the war with all Germans I know.  People of 50 years
old today were babies during the war and, through no fault of THEIRS probably
suffered more than the corresponding Americans.  Europe is more interested in
moving on, there's exciting stuff happening here NOW!

There are notes conferences for almost every country in Europe you might want
to travel to.  The Swiss one is CHORD::HELVETICA (KP7, etc.) but it seems out
of action lately.  Look in the notes listings for others.  They are full of
travel suggestions.

Contrary to popular opinion, English is NOT the second language of every 
European and if you arrive with that idea in mind, you might be in for quite
a cultural shock.  My kids' first language is French, their second is German,
and their third is English.  I know lots of people who don't speak a word of
English.  However there are enough people that do speak English that, if you 
accept that you must speak slowly, carefully, and patiently (DON'T SHOUT) you
will usually be understood by someone.

Probably, studying another language at night is a good idea anyway.  Don't
expect it to turn you into a conversationalist.  But it will get you to the
train station.

You only have two weeks.  Do you like to see **everything** or do you want to
concentrate on a culture?  You can do an overview of Europe in two weeks by
getting a Eurail pass and spending one or two days in several major capitals.
Flying Icelandic to Luxembourg is cheap and then you can visit Amsterdam,
Brussels, Paris, Frankfurt, Zurich, Geneva for example.  Or pick a culture
from oneof the notes files and do it thoroughly.  The trains are marvelous
and cheap.

Or fly to Vienna and do the new Eastern democracies and Austria.  Europe is an
exciting place to be right now.

Look us up if you come to Geneva :-)

Cheryl

	We have night classes here called "travellers French" as opposed to
	the French required for exams.

	Not only did it concentrate on food, money, directions, transport, but
	also on how a lot of things in France work, and how to get tickets,
	car hire, camp sites, book a room with washbasin/bath/loo, use the
	phones etc.

	I found it very useful, look around to see if you have something like 
	this, rather than the achedemic-type lessons

	Heather

    I'll let ya know in three weeks.
    
    D!

    Some friends of mine went to France, and found it to
    be very "un-friendly".  (FWIW)
    
    

    Being a american white male, I don't think it would be too safe to
    travel anywhere outside the US-Canada area... 
    
    REK

    re.7
    Don't be daft!
    
    re. France being unfriendly....
    They're not exactly unfriendly, but they like to show it's *their*
    country and you're just a visitor.
    
    Charles

    Last year Tim and I went to The Hague, then to England and Scotland.
    I suspect that there is enormous entertainment value in watching
    two jet-lagged Americans trying to figure out a train schedule
    written in Dutch -- with abbreviations.
    
    So, my recommendation is:  Learn the days of the week, the ordinal
    and cardinal numbers, and their abbreviations.  Heather's
    recommendation for `Traveller's French' sounds very good to me.
    
    						Ann B.

    Ann,
    There's even more entertainment value in watching Dutchies who don't
    use the train too often trying to figure out the train schedule.
    I see it every day at the station.
    ;-)
    Charles

    
    If you go through belgium, a day in Brugge is well spent.  Take a
    walking tour (available form the information center for $cheap!)
    
    Brugge is the Venice of the North. Canals, musuems of 14-16th century
    Flemish painters, Very picturesque, and made me feel like I was almost
    a part of it, rather than a tourist. 
    
    
    Jamd

    
    As an American living (and traveling widely) over here for the last 10
    years, I feel obliged to add my 1/50th of a $ . . . . .
    
    
    	1.  Learn some of the language !   Although English works
    practically anywhere tourists congregate, any effort spent learning
    another language will not be in vain.  Over here we deal with the
    language thing continually and find that it *always* helps.
    
    	2.  Don't worry about the trains.  As a rule, common sense and a
    clear head will get you through most train trips.  Although many
    abbreivations are in another language, somewhere in the station there
    will be a master schedule, or an "Information" (marked with a big "I").
    Travelling light is a major advantage, and you will bless your own
    common sense and wisdom after lugging your belongings over half of the
    continent.  Less is more ! ! ! 
    
    	3.  Forget the "whirlwind" trip idea.  Although this is a good way
    to get many rolls of film filled with skillions of photos of old
    cathedrals and fountains, you won't get very much out of it.  Instead,
    find an area that you're interested in.  Read about it, check out all
    available info, and then make the trip.  I would much rather spend a
    week in getting to know Florence well (actually, this takes more) than
    trying to cover all of Italy in the same time.  I/O capacity is
    ultimately limited in people as well as systems. . . .IMHO. . .
    
    	re .7 - 
                As another American white male who's traveled here and in
    the states, I would have to say I feel safer traveling in Europe. 
    FWIW.
    
    	If anybody's traveling in the direction of Germany or Netherlands,
    lemme know. . . . There's a few tricks that aren't necessarily
    described in travel guides.
    
    				 	-Rob in Frankfurt

    
    Last spring, I took a bike trip by myself through parts of
    Belgium and Holland (Brussels->Antwerp->Bruge->Rotterdam->
    Amsterdam->&return by train) for two weeks.  Worked out great.
    No language problems.  No "guy" hassles (I would *not*
    have picked Italy or France for this trip for that one reason
    alone!)  Just a nice trip.  Tulips in bloom too.
    

    Do try to learn some of the language. It's common politeness, and can
    help to keep interesting sidelights from turning into major
    emergencies. (Although if you go to Paris, you'll probably end up
    practicing your French on the natives who are trying to practice their
    English on you.)
    
    Ray

    re .7, what on earth do you think would happen to you, as a white male,
    in either England or Scotland?  I just got back from 2 1/2 weeks there
    and England & Scotland are full of white males, many of them
    *extremely* attractive looking, I might add.  :-)
    
    I would also be apprehensive about going to the continent since I don't
    speak anything but English.  Taking one of those previously mentioned
    courses meant for tourists sounds like a good idea.  Although, my
    girlfriend told me that she thought she would be able to communicate in
    French when she went to France a few years ago, because she had taken
    French in both high school and college, but it turned out that nobody
    there could understand much of what she said in French and vice-versa. 
    Luckily, her husband was able to make himself understood, though, so
    they got around alright.
    
    Personally, I had enough trouble trying to understand some of the
    Scottish people speaking English.  Sometimes I really had no idea what
    they had said the first time around.  
    
    London is wonderful, though, Christine.  It's a fascinating, exciting
    city *and* they speak English!  
    
    Lorna
    

    Welcome back, Lorna!  We missed you.
    
    Mary

    re .16, thank you!  I had a wonderful time.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Don't worry about not being able to understand the Scottish accent
    Lorna.  I'm British(English) and I can't understand it half the time.
    
    #-)
    
    Jerome.

    Does anybody have any recent experiences in Puerto Vallarta?
    I will be spending 1 week there in October and haven't been
    able to dig up too much information....
    
    Thanks,
    
    Christine

    re: a few 
    
         Did anyone mention that there is a noting conference for
    traveling?  It's NACAD::HOLIDAY_TRAVEL.note
    
    Frederick
    

    
    CQ,
    
    With only two weeks, I, too, recommend finding one or two areas
    which appeal most to you and spending quality time there, rather 
    than dashing around and stressing out over train connections and 
    a cramped itinerary.
    
    One of the things I love about Europe is the slower pace so many 
    of them enjoy -- allow yourself to soak it in, and let go of the 
    American Do-Everything-Go-Everywhere-See-Everyone mindset.  Stay 
    in small villages with easy access to the large cities.  Be eager 
    to communicate in their language -- it's simply amazing what you 
    can convey through sign language and improvised signals.  I once
    spent a wonderful evening swapping jokes with a 12 year-old girl
    whose language I did not speak and vice versa.
    
    France is not high on my recommendation list.  The wine is good, 
    but you can get that in many more enjoyable places.  As for the
    countryside, it's just as beautiful in northern Italy, southern
    Switzerland.
    
    I would *not* recommend going to Italy alone either -- it's bad
    enough if you're with a boyfriend.  Alone ... can't imagine.  I 
    would definitely not feel safe there alone.
    
    Switzerland is divine.  It's safe, friendly, clean, and it has
    wonderful restaurants.  Once you make a friend in Switzerland,
    they're your friend for life.
    
    I'd be happy to share my upcoming experiences with you after I
    return, Christine.  I will be using a Eurailpass for the first
    time and going to two places I have never been before (M�nchen 
    and Amsterdam).
    
    There is book called Europe Through The Back Door which you may
    find enlightening -- talks about intimate, safe, out of the way
    spots and even has a section devoted to women who travel alone,
    offering hints and suggestions on where to go, what not to do,
    and that sort of thing.
    
    Have fun planning!
    
    Carla
    

    
    Have a great trip Carla!  I'm eagerly awaiting the trip report when you
    return!  
    
    CQ

	I just came back from 2 weeks in London/Scotland.  Perhaps because I'm
of Scottish ancestry, I didn't find the accent extremely difficult.

	With the exception of downtown Glasgow, I felt much safer after dark
(until after 23:00 most nights) in Europe than I did in Boston.  We traveled by
train between and by foot, bus or tube within the cities.

	I would say that it pays to learn some of the local language.  At a
minimum, you should learn enough to read signs, and ask basic questions.  In
1978, in France, I spoke enough to get by, and the locals seemed to appreciate
that we tried, even if our grammar was awful at times.  Even in English-
speaking countries, learn to use the local words for things.

	I learned most of my conversational Spanish traveling, some for DEC and
some personal. I can read a lot more than I speak.  Having had French in high
school helped.  It would be interesting to see how much French I could muster
these days.  My German is probably better.

	I'd say, "do it."


							--Doug

    
    I, too, have just gotten back from the UK and as a woman travelling
    alone, I didn't feel at all nervous being out at night in the
    center of Glasgow (or Ayr or London or Southampton or ..well...
    Birmingham's another story).
    
    But, be aware of pickpockets in crowded situations.  I once, several
    years ago, had my handbag unzipped and my wallet lifted while on a
    crowded underground train in London (time of day obviously has nothing 
    to do with it).  Just be aware and use common sense.
    
    Sue

    re .23, I'm of Scottish ancestry, too, Doug (birth name Burns) and it
    didn't seem to help *me* understand their accent any better so that may
    not be it!  :-)   I did love it over there, though, and I did feel very
    safe in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Ayr, although I wasn't traveling alone
    anyway.  Anyway, I was so thrilled by all the wonderful jewelry stores
    in Glasgow with all the reproduction Victorian jewelry that I was too
    busy to worry about whether I was safe or not.  I thought that Scottish
    people, in general, seemed extremely nice and I think there are a lot
    of cute guys over there, too.  As my friend said, "A lot of blue eyes"
    hmmm... Maybe that was it.
    
    Lorna
    

	Gee Lorna, maybe we should get together for haggis, neeps & tatties
(or, at least a good ale) and show off our pictures.


						--D

    re.25
    
    Aaaarrgh.  Lorna - I wish I'd known you were going to be in Ayr, we
    could've met up and gone for a drink or just looked around the sites
    and sounds.
    
    If anyone else is coming in this direction let us know.  There's not
    many =wmnoters= in this neck of the woods and would be nice to meet
    some of you.
    
    Regards
    Tracy W

        Ahh;   haggis,  neeps an' chappit tatties wi' a wee drap o' the
        craitur tae wash it doon! ;*)
        
        Seriously, if anyone is interested in Scots foods  in  the N.H.
        area,  Margo  Johnston  owns  a Scots shop near Manchester  and
        carries pies (the round ones with the lip on top which you fill
        with mashed  spuds etc.) bridies, sausage rolls, black pudding,
        sliced  sausage,  haggis,  Tattie  Scones,  Cadbury's  Drinking
        Chocolate, Crunchies and all  that, along with biscuits, tapes,
        CDs, clothes, china, jewellery etc.
        
        Send mail for directions - it's worth the trip.
        
        Andy
        
        PS.  Disclaimer:  I  have  no  connection  with this enterprise
        beyond routine customer.

    Having heard bits of Broad Yorkshire all my life, and one hilarious
    45 of two monologs in Scouse, I mostly don't have trouble with
    Scots, ... once I accepted that "Kyup" means "Thank you".
    
    Something I remembered this morning: It can be useful to spell things
    out, so learn how to pronounce the alphabet in the languages you'll
    be facing.
    
    						Ann B.

    Belgium would be a fine place to start - Brussels was my husband's
    third choice as a place to spend our honeymoon.  I know several people
    who have done whirlwind tours and returned later to the cities they
    liked the best, so this is a worthwhile strategy.
    
    Taking the train can be daunting, but I managed okay.  You can get
    little phrase books to teach you how to ask for a round-trip ticket,
    and how to tell a direct bus from one that stops at a zillon little
    villages. (The books are good reminders even if you do take a 
    language course.  And if your pronunciation is really awful, you
    can point to the foreign language phrase and the person you're trying
    to communicate with can read it for him/herself.  I didn't ever have
    to resort to that, though.)
    
     From the train window (unless you fall asleep) you can 
    see the station names as you come in.  If you're not afraid to tag
    yourself as a tourist, you can carry a map to follow the train's
    progress.  Even if you do make a mistake, it can be an opportunity
    to get off the tourist track and see something you might have missed
    otherwise.
    
    If you'd like an account of my first and only (so far) visit to Europe,
    two weeks in Florence in November 1990, you will find it in
    ROM01::ITALY Note 157.  We took the train from Milan to Florence, and
    a bus from Florence to Siena. I didn't have time to take an intro course in
    Italian, but I did play language cassettes in my car for
    a month before the trip, and found it helpful.  I enjoyed my visit so
    much I can't imagine why I waited 34 years to cross the ocean!
    
    Enjoy yourself.  I look forward to reading your trip report!
    
    -- Jane

    Those in search of the notes conference on Switzerland should consult
    it at BOOKIE::HELVETICA.   We had to move it when CHORD got dismantled.
    Unfortunately, we lost all the old contents.
    
    		- Paul Dickson, moderator of HELVETICA

	In '88 Mark and I took a 5 week, self-guided bike tour through
	Germany.  It was an incredible trip!  We knew essentially no
	German, but were lucky enough to start out staying with an aunt
	for a week.  That helped to get us a little aclimated.  I remember
	being terrified of going into the post office and having to ask
	for stamps.  I begged my Tant� Bille to do it for me, but her
	reply was "sink or swim".  It was good advice.

	I really liked the fact that we had time to do a fair amount of
	exploring of the German countryside.  There's a lot to see!  The
	people, for the most part, were very friendly and helpful.  Once
	we got away from the cities, we often were in the situation of
	trying to communicate with someone who know no English.  It was
	usually pretty fun!  If you're polite and really try to under-
	stand, people will be polite back to you.

	Our best memories are from experiences off the beaten path...
	Climbing out of the Rhine valley to a campground surrounded by
	a horsefarm, the tiny campground where we slept next to a brook,
	the same campground's owner asking us the night before what time
	we ate breakfast and when we showed up in the morning he had it
	all ready for us, the bartender/waiter at a restaurant in some
	little town who gave us our 5th half-carafe of white wine on-the-
	house, the man who led us on his bike 10 miles to the nearest
	campground....  

	I think that the people who only visit the large cities are missing
	the best parts of the country.  I can get excited by only so many
	cathedrals.  It's encountering a deer in the middle of a path that
	I'll remember... or watching the waterbirds at a quiet lake...

	Sue

    re .27, Tracy, I'm sorry I didn't get in touch with you when I was in
    Ayr.  I actually forgot that there were any womannoters in Ayr.  I was
    thinking everyone from the UK was in Reading.  :-(
    
    Doug, what a coincidence.  It sounds like you were over there almost
    the same time I was!  I didn't see you anywhere, though.  :-)
    
    I didn't have a really good camera (just an automatic 35 mm) but I did
    go kind of crazy taking pictures in the Western Highlands.  It was so
    pretty there with the mountains and water, etc.  I loved it.  I have
    about 50 or 60 similar looking photos of the area.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

Upon return and without much time, the most profound thing I can say 
about Amsterdam is that: Dutch food is boring and "black pudding" might
very well be the most disgusting thing I've ever eaten.

D!

    Black pudding is a British food, thank you, and it is delicious!
    
    Alice T.

    Dutch food is dull?  You should have found a rijstaffel place! -
    delicious!!
    
    /Charlotte

    We did suggest a 'patatje oorlog' to her, but she went a bit of a funny
    green colour and declined. And it's not nearly as exciting as haggis
    (although I'll admit it must look somewhat the same). 
    
    Ad
    
    

    So she knows what a "patatje oorlog" is and *still* thinks Dutch food
    is dull?!?!?
    
    I can understand the green colour though!
    
    Charles

    The black pudding was actually delicious. It was just unfortunate that
    Harry commented on what it was made from as he served breakfast. He
    would have been much more diplomatic if he had waited until you had
    eaten it.

    Jamie.

    Yes, I was informed of "black pudding's" English, uh, roots, and was
    being served it by a delightfully British host.  :-)  And no, Jamie, it
    was not the ingredients that turned me off - I'm not particularly
    squeamish about food.  Say, anyone wanna get sushi this Friday?  :-)
    
    D!

    Oh yes, we *did* have rijstaafl.  Twice, in fact.  However, I hardly
    consider it "dutch" cuisine...rather, I think the best thing you can
    say about food in Holland is that there is a wide selection of
    non-Dutch food...such as rijstaafl (Indonesian, despite the name.)
    
    D!

    
    Can anyone suggest someplace Club Medlike to go for a week by oneself?
    Club Med is too expensive and not worth it, I hear. Yes, I will
    look in Travel, but I would also like to know the recommender,
    which is why I'm entering this here.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Eileen

    Help,
    
    I've been trying to contact Nancy (GEMVAX::ADAMS) but it keeps coming
    up NO such user on NODE SPARKL.  
    
    Nancy if you're reading this send me another mail I'm taking the week
    of 21 Oct. off and plan on going to Glasgow.
    
    Send me a message and we'll arrange something.
    
    
    Tracy W.

    Tracy,
    
    Nancy is gone.  She picked up the =wn= photo album Monday, and is
    winging her way to Scotland.  'gail Davies knows how to get in touch
    with her, I believe.
    
    E Grace

    RE: 43
    
    Eileen,
    	What kind of thing are you looking for.  Give me a hint and I'll
    ask my wife (who is a travel agent) what she can suggest.  (Club Med
    covers a VERY broad spectrum.)
    
    Have a GREAT day!
    Pete

    I just returned from three weeks in Europe. I don't have anough time to
    go through all the good and bad (most of it was good!).
    
    We went from France to Italy to Switzerland to Germany.
    And each place had something different to love about it.
    
    But here is what I would suggest just off the top of my head:
    DO learn some language or phrases; NOT EVERYONE SPEAKS ENGLISH.
    There were some towns that we stayed in where it was very difficult to
    express ourselves, and order food etc (no menu, nothing to point at, no
    english!) 
    You can't change money easily on weekends, so be prepared!
    The trains are a good form of transportation. We had a car but at times
    it was more of a nuisance than an help.
    If you have a car learn 'unleaded' in the appropriate languages.
    Not all shops/restuarants take VISA so bring more cash than you expect 
    you will use.
    
    You must see the medieval towns or the parts of towns that still
    stand. Menton France had a medieval section, Serlunga Italy was
    beautiful and right in the middle of wine country! What luck 8*)))))!
    You must eat as much pasta, and raviloi especially, as humanly possible
    in Italy, and gelato!!!!! Several times a day!
    Oh, I could go on and on....
    
    But I want to keep this short for now.
    
    If you travel around to a different place each day it is hard to figure
    out the shopping/eating schedule of the towns. When things close in the
    afternoons, sometimes NOTHING is open! So its good to ask about that.
    
    Drink wine in France and Italy, drink beer further north. And all of it
    is good! Eat plenty of chocolate in Switerland, France was good for
    that too.
    
    I would reccomend at least 2 weeks when going to Europe, the jet lag
    takes a lot out of you and the life style is differnt and could take
    some time to get used to.
    
    Send mail for more tidbits of info.
    
    Hannah

    
    I don't consider Dutch food to be boring at all.  Now German
    food, *that's* boring to me.
    
    Diana, next time you must go with Harry and Jamie to a small
    Caribbean restaurant near their home.  Truly a gastrorgasmic
    experience!
    
    Carla (who wisely ixnayed the oodblay uddingpay)
    

    Quite a restaurant indeed Carla!
    ;-)
    Charles

    i just returned (actually a month ago - but there is no rest for the
    wicked ;-) from a month in the UK and Germany/Austria. 
    
    a few observations: 
    
    	-	attempting to learn some of the local language makes
    		it more possible to be a "traveller" rather than a tourist.
    		i studied German for a semester this past year and just 
    		jumped in and tried my best.  also, i felt like i had
    		really prepped, and got alot out of the time we spent 
    		(2� weeks in England, ~2 weeks in Germany & Austria).
    
    		of course i even prep for Molokai ;-)
    
    	-	Spend time away from cities (we had a car in Germany)
    		if you can -- although you will have to work harder 
    		at the language, you are more liely to meet people and 
    		have real conversations (other than Haben Sie ein
    		Toilette?).  Also, your DM (or whatever currency) will
    		go further in Pensions and B&Bs.  Arriving before dusk
    		in small towns we generally found good accomations (zimmer 
    		frei) and only had trouble twice, when we waited to late
    		and didn't plan well.  Only our first night in Germany had
    		a prepaid hotel, just to not have to worry after driving
    		from Frankfurt to Weimar. 
    
    	-	Plan you time adjustment - we flew San Jose /Chicago -->
    		Manchester (GREAT AIRPORT!!! cleared customs/immig/car
    		rental in 20 minutes flat...try that at some others...)
    		arriving in England 7 am.  We visited Port Sunlight, drove 
    		up to the Lakes, across Windemere to Broughton-on-Furness, 
    		staying up to try a local pub with only a 1 hour nap at 5pm.
    		Hiked Helvellyn the next day and that guaranteed a good
    		night's sleep and we were on local time.
    
    	-	Limit your itinerary -- visit what may change (for us, the
    		priority in England was family, in Germany, it was to see
    		parts of eastern Germany that are rapidly changing, like
    		Weimar, Dresden (lots of young Red Army staff with no task 
    		but time on their hands, they will not be there next visit)
    		& Mei�en.  
    
    		STRONGLY SUGGEST spending more than one night per town.
    		Just not having to repack and find a new lodging frees up	
    		time, and you might get to know some wonderful hosts.
    
    		Lower cost and stress locations:  
    
    		Austria		Halleine (sp?_ near Salzberg)
    	                        Imst (near Innsbruck)
    
    		Germany		Feughtwangen (argg - need to spellcheck!!)
    				Bamberg (well the St. Nepumuk is not cheap,
    					but is the most romantic place
    					we stayed).  
    
    	-	Plan to return!!
    
    	-	Make some inquiries after reading some of the 
    		related conferences -- many of the questions you will have
    		are answered (sometimes many times).
    
    	gotta go -- haven't taken off my Halloween makeup and my face is
    cracking!!!
    
    		irene

    oh yes - i language prepped for England -- survived another dose of 
    Geordie and even understood most of Yorkshire...but had some
    interesting times elsewhere!!  of course having a tutor and translator
    along helped - until even he lapsed into a North Shields tongue.